February 2, 2026 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Planning Commission ARB for February 2nd. If you have any electronic gadgets, please silence them at this time. And before we start, we'd like to introduce Blair Kweskin. She's our new appointee to the Planning Commission, ARB. Good to see you. Ryan.

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Planning Commission ARB for February 2nd. If you have any electronic gadgets, please silence them at this time. And before we start, we'd like to introduce Blair Queskin. She's our new appointee to the Planning Commission, ARB. Good to see you. Ryan.

Steve Lichtenfeld. Here. Helen DiFate.

Steve Lichtenfeld. Here. Helen DeFate.

Here.

Susan Buse.

Jim Arsenault. Here. Chris Brennan. Here. Larry Queskin.

We have minutes from the previous meeting on January 20th. Are there any changes? Seeing none, do we have a motion?

Move to approve as submitted. Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? At this time, we have an open forum where anyone in the audience or online can address us with a question or comment on any topic not on tonight's agenda. So if there are any, hopefully you signed up on the sheet outside the door. And if so, were any turned in? Okay. Then we will go forward. We will start with new business and 500 South Hanley Road is our first item. Is the applicant here? We'll get started with the staff report.

An identical plot was approved by the plan commission back in October in conjunction with an architectural review application. Plot was not filed within the required timeframe and approval has since lapsed and staff are recommending that the commission recommend approval to the city council with the following conditions. One, that the applicant provide a mylar for the appropriate city of Clayton signatures after city council approval and two, that the applicant file a plot with St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds office prior to application of any construction or demolition permits for the property.

Hey, thank you. The applicant, come on up. Introduce yourself and add anything you'd like.

Good evening. I'm Gordon Spring, 500 South Hanley. I think Ryan's recap captured it. So new business of repeat of old business. We just couldn't get it submitted timely enough after coordinating with some lender signatures required on our side. So we'd ask for additional time to resubmit.

Okay. You understand and do you agree with the two staff recommendations?

Submission of the MILR. Sorry, could you repeat those for me one more time? Submission of MILR I know about and I certainly agree with.

Right. Yeah, the MILR and then submit it to the county recorder of deeds. Yes, no problem. Okay. I have no questions. Helen?

No questions.

Susan?

Nothing.

Jim? No questions. Chris? Good to see you. No questions. Claire?

Questions.

Okay, do we have a motion? Oh, are there any comments from the audience? No? Okay.

I move to recommend approval to the City Council with the two conditions.

Second.

All in favor? I post okay thank you. We'll move on to item number 2 and number 2 which is 8032 Venetian drive is the applicant here. Okay we'll start with the staff report.

The property is located on the south side of Venetian between South Brentwood and South Merrimack. The property is owned to Artoon and is developed with a single family house. The applicant is seeking approval for a retaining wall that will span the front and rear yards on the south side the lot. The wall material is a modular block mimicking cut limestone. The wall will have a consistent color and straight edges. The architectural review guidelines require that modular block walls located in front yards include varying block sizes color patterns and tumbled or rolled edges. The proposed material does not meet these requirements and therefore requires review by the architectural review board pertaining walls nearby comprise a variety of materials, including limestone which is also present on the subject property staff have the opinion that the retaining wall material will have a minimal visual impact and recommend approval is submitted.

Okay, the applicant.

Yes, thank you. My name is Carrie Witter. I'm a 20 year resident of Clayton and we believe that the blocks that are here, there's actually two colors represented there. The top one is the one we're not going to use. It's too light. The one on the bottom is closer to limestone. Yup. Thank you for bringing that up. And we're looking for the approval of using these blocks on this property. We believe that the architectural style of these blocks is consistent with the property. Anything else? Nope. This is a $100,000 retaining wall that'll help reinforce the property over the long term on a million-dollar property. But we think it will add to the beauty of the neighborhood and to the property itself.

Okay. Well, I'm sure we have a few questions. The first one, I think we saw a site plan, Ryan, because there was not one in our packet.

It was provided to you in your electronic packet.

Didn't even open that. Okay, so here we see it. North is to our left, and the wall starts at the sidewalk property line. Is that correct?

Yes.

And it goes along the western boundary to a point? That's right. It

goes from the front to the back of the property,

the western side. How close is it to your western property

line? It's just set back from the property line according to recommended procedure. I think it's about six inches or maybe a foot, something like that.

Are you regrading the land just to the east of the

wall? Not significantly. Okay. Was there runoff

to the neighbor

to the West? Uh, there is currently, um, the water flows from our property onto the neighbors to the West. It does flows downhill. And this, this proposed wall doesn't change the hydrological features of the property.

Um, Have the neighbors to the west been involved in this?

Yes, I've reviewed these plans with the neighbors to the West and to the East. But the east and to the east, yes, both neighbors, both sides of my property. Yes, the plans have been removed, reviewed with the neighbor to the east. But they're not affected on the east. They're not affected in what way, sir?

Well, if we're looking at the drawings correctly. Correct. The retaining walls are all on the left side. That's right. Okay. Were notifications sent out to neighbors? We didn't have it marked on the report. Okay. Well, first I'd like everyone to talk about the sighting and the wall before we get into the material. So, Helen?

Is there planting on the area where you have two walls shown parallel to one another?

Yes, in the rear of the property.

Yeah.

Yes, there is planting. planned for that area when it's built

how will those plants be maintained from the west or from the east side

they they can be the anticipated um height of those plants is such that they can be maintained from the east side meaning our property

Okay,

although and there is a small area even stepping on the ledge itself will give enough access for the lower wall from the lower wall to maintain the few plants. It's a narrow space in between the two walls.

Please

come up. We need a recording.

Aye. We are also planning on those plants to not need that much maintenance. So we're picking plants that are going to stay quite narrow, but also give a little bit of height to kind of screen it off for the neighbors.

And could you give us your name?

Rhiannon. Rhiannon Pritchard. I'm with Quiet Village Landscaping.

No, that's so that you can maintain them from your side. In the event that the adjacent property owner to the west wants to put up a fence?

There is actually an existing fence that's there that we aren't going to be touching.

Okay. How far back are these walls from your property line?

I believe they are... I believe they are at least enough feet for us to be able to get down there with a small track. We're going to be doing, I think it's about a two-foot track to be able to go down to the end there to put in this retaining wall. And so they should be at least, I believe... to two feet at least from the existing wood fence on the neighbor's property line

okay this on the drawing it's very difficult to tell where the property line is and the line that runs parallel to the walls is nine inches off the face of the wall Is that the property line? And

is that the base of the wall or is that the top?

The way that the retaining wall is built is to be as vertical as possible and not have all of the setbacks. It uses a pin system for engineering to be able to hold the weight to actually retain the land behind it. And so we're trying to get as vertical as possible without having all of the setback. So it would be minimally, I believe, maybe... From the line, it would be probably about five, six inches, six inches different from the top of the wall to the bottom of the wall.

Okay. The area that doesn't have those two long walls, Is that grade, does that grade meet the adjacent grade on the other property? It does. Okay.

I discussed with the neighbor the project itself and that there would be Why were you choosing these blocks? Because it matches the line.

Okay, nothing further.

Susan.

Thanks for coming. The only question I have, which I think you addressed, will this have any effect on the stormwater or the runoff onto your neighboring property? Does it diminish it maybe, or does it?

I'm hoping it will diminish it because we have enough drainage that's going to be built behind these retaining walls. Currently, the water runs off down a hill of ivy into the property and you can see where the water has eroded in certain places. It's actually making the ground on the neighbor's property really soggy to walk through and she's having a lot of issues with her Fertilization and everything and so what we're hoping to do is divert the water away from her property So we won't have those kinds of issues

Okay, thank you

Jim If we're discussing I guess location at this point how much I had a little bit of trouble telling how much of this will be seen from the front yard. I can see like at the front, it looks like there's just a kind of small amount that kind of like jogs into the front, the vast majority is on the side, but then further back where I guess it's the stairs, it's,

This is just a visual representation. If this is helpful, this is from if you were standing on the street. This is kind of what you would see down so it's much lower in the front and the taller parts of it. The way that the house is pretty is going to be taller towards the back, but there's already a fence from the neighbors that's going to kind of hide that. The majority of this is going to be giving a place that we can actually put in through taller plantings. And so that can kind of start to screen off their property and so that they have a nice and sort of enclosed backyard. We're thinking much more on the case of we want them to be able to enjoy their backyard and feel like they have a space of their own. instead of everybody else on the street looking up into their

property. The front dimension, so that front part of the wall, how long is that front part of a wall?

It's going to the one that's along the sidewalk.

That's along, yeah, that's along Phoenician.

Is...

Talking about the length along Venetian, how far along this section that the cursor is over, how long? Because I don't see a dimension on there. I

think we estimated that it would be about...

So it's just this dark part where the new wall is going. But you're saying that front part there is 10 feet long. Just by the plan, it looks a lot shorter than that. Yes, and this, which... That's just a visual,

just for you guys to kind of...

Okay, you'll have to forgive me. This wasn't in our packet. So this yellow dash line that's on this visual, what does that represent? Okay, because if that's the property line in this case, it looks like it would go over the property line.

This was just a visual to have a look and see how the wall blocks. Just so you can see the coloring in it.

can say i do have i do have some concerns because it on on the one piece that we were given here it says plotted from available records so there doesn't look like there is any sort of site measurements taken and with it being so close to the property line if we're talking like you know literal inches from the property line that worries me a little bit that there wasn't a survey done and it's just kind of taken from records because then if it you go out in the field that could be even a foot in one direction could make a pretty big difference there.

I discussed it with my neighbor where the two of us.

Yeah, I would say the concern would be from having to approve it on this end though. far as seeing measurements of this wall and kind of like how it goes and the representations of it just it just gives me a little bit of pause that you know not have worried and might not have like the full picture uh today but that's all i have right now

Chris Win'm curious to know what other materials you had considered apart from this limestone

chris i'm curious to know what other materials you had considered apart from this limestone

lot of them the normal open or what do you call it broken

split face

split face thank you finding these blocks like this so we would I've encouraged the vegetation. Arrow tie, you know, that they had there, that doesn't, it's not appropriate for this. That's one also that we, you know. One final thing, just leaving it as it is, it's difficult to maintain. It's a number. Sample, you know, one of my kids was out there mowing the lawn and she slipped while she was mowing the lawn. I saw her at that moment. It's like, okay, I'm changing this. That's why I'm here.

mower goes that way toe goes that way you don't want that

yeah just you know she's trying to mow the lawn

is the idea you had mentioned putting new plantings behind that wall, which of course isn't shown on that rendering. And I understand bringing in that one there, but I can envision a little bit that it would look neat with some plantings there. And if I understand correctly, you're thinking of planting that behind really to screen both from the neighbors, both from the front and the back. So along that section that dies into the yard in the front, there might be some plantings as well behind there?

It's going to be, we're actually trying to save as much of it as we can. There's existing liriope there. We're actually going to take all of that liriope and plant it up, remove it while the retaining wall is going in and reuse that same planting material. Probably at our office for a little while.

Is there anything of height that you're doing apart from the liriope that would be? Okay.

Okay. You have a really beautiful layer.

it's more both a safety concern and a privacy so i mean your end purpose really is to provide a little bit more of a private environment but also one that's a little bit more property stabilized no further questions for me thank you later

These are all going to be new. The front? Yeah. These are these are all new in the front area right now there is an edging that's a little bit further up on the side of the hill currently there's a. it's a it's a relatively decent sized hill and it's covered in variety.

So

is this

go in the, there's at the back of the. There you go. At the back of the retaining wall, there's a two-tier wall. Yes, I saw that. it'll go in between there and that's to give some height at the back

it'll be a wall and then no greenery on the other side and then a greenery and then a second a second wall okay i just wanted to clarify

so like backyard it becomes tiered

Anything else, Blair?

In this rendering, will the liriope steep slope be raised to within a couple inches of the top of the wall?

I expect there to be a little bit of settling, but the main focus is to still keep that liriope because that doesn't need to be maintained. But it'll still give that a little bit of height behind that wall to give it. A texture.

I would assume it would not be as steep as we see it on the screen.

With the wall, no, because you are moving that height up a little bit as far as the wall is concerned. So it's not going to be as deep, but you will still see a little bit of a hill there.

You're saying that's 10 feet? No, I'm saying like it seems like less. It seems like it's rendered. If you go back to the plans where 11 feet is in the front, if you look over here, if you go over, so there's the nine inch marker here. And then after that, it shows 11 feet and it's a line way back there. So this front part's nowhere even close to. It's more like a foot, two feet or something like that.

Not what we're going to build.

So the plans on the screen are not what you plan on building?

There's a couple of small things, Jim, to talk about tonight or we can

revise. Do you have a planting schedule also along with this? You've kind of talked about some of the planting, but what's going

to... As of right now, our main focus is getting the wallets then we can go back and see what is going to look best where. The plant designer that we're planning to use and see how they're going to look overall.

Thank you. On this rendering, there appear to be little drainage holes, which sort of indicate that on the backside is where the level of the ground will be. Are we going to see that in reality?

uh that is just a visual represent it's just to give you guys specifically to see the color because we were only coming here to talk about the color of the block today um it's just to look at the color of the Block and the house behind with the limestone around the

we understand your point of view but we're here to look at the entire project not just the block itself

Yeah, Steve, I'll provide a little context to that. They originally applied for a building permit and met the architectural review guidelines for material types. They had a slightly different stone chosen. So they were issued a building permit They since then have switched to this stone material, which is what didn't directly conform with the material requirements, which is why they're here today. And they were here prepared to talk about the material because the rest of this that fell under the building permit for the retaining wall was already issued to them.

Otherwise, I would have brought an engine.

Thank you for the clarification. We had no idea they already had a permit. Okay. Okay. Well, then let's move on to the material. I guess if you could bring it over, then the camera will catch it for everyone online as well as here.

no this is we specifically picked this off because it's a beautiful uh smooth finish on the front this needs to be enjoyed by the neighbors and so it's very rare that you can really lovely And it'll look beautiful if you're on the property.

We're accustomed to so much limestone in the area that's more rough cut. But this does match the limestone around the front door and the window heads. Just curious, but the footing under it, how deep will that be?

I think I have some plans here.

Yeah,

it's going... We've actually talked to county materials and I think even county materials because this is such a big... wall, they will probably be coming out on site to have a look. So everything is going to be to manufacturer's recommendations. And we've already chatted with them and the engineer that designed the wall as well has spoken with the manufacturers to make sure that we are doing everything to back.

The typical wall B section that we see, it shows the blocks stepping back just very slightly. lightly so we would really not see that

we're my hope is that we are not going a little bit of there just to make sure that you

don't have overturned yeah other question Susan

I said one it's actually not on the stone this may already be decided the building permit but the lawyer and he's making me say this building a permanent wall that close to the property line without a survey I don't know. Clayton has had adverse possession conflicts and things like that in the past, and they're not pretty. So if you're all confident in that property line, that's been looked at. I thought we just said... That's what your planes say. Right. I thought I heard that tonight, and if I didn't, I'm thrilled. That's great. You know where the property lines are clearly. Great. I take it back then. I misunderstood something said earlier. Perfect. Thank you.

Other comments? Jim?

Ana, just to make sure. So if this wall had irregular shaped blocks or if it had a rough cut finish, we wouldn't have even seen it. The only reason it's here is because of the flat face. So basically like if we're okay with the flat face, the city has okayed every other aspect of this. Is that correct?

That's correct. Yeah, the material guidelines require bricks with multiple sizes and rough tumbled edges. That's what this stone does not meet. But all of the other, the engineering, the setbacks, the construction, that side of it's all been reviewed or the process will be reviewed for this amendment for their new engineering. But yeah, by the building division. Okay.

I apologize also for some of my extra questions then, trying to, you know, a lot of these things that, you know, I feel like we have positions and we try and back up those positions. And I don't think all of us fully understood exactly what we were considering. So thank you, Ana, for clarifying that.

Any other comments? Any comments from the audience or any hands up? Oh, come on up.

Sally cone. Having not seen this, how tall is the wall? At the at the front and going Yeah,

it'll be 18 inches in the front here.

And does it come across by the sidewalk? So there's no longer this area of monkey grass?

There will be a little bit of monkey grass behind the wall.

So the wall is going to be right up to this. Well, that's the first issue I would have a problem with would be no setback from the sidewalk. I find that very confining. This is a pedestrian area and I would hope that you would set it back some. I don't know if you're allowed to vote on, re-vote on that, but we don't put fences up or we shouldn't put fences up right on the sidewalks. There should be some pedestrian and put the monkey grass at the edge and then start your wall. And how, how tall is it all the way back there?

I believe it's four feet, I think.

The tall?

Oh, which one?

Either of them.

It depends. So you'll see over here, this is a side plan. So this is

the sidewalk here? Yep. Okay. And then

it'll come all the way back here.

And at this point, it's how tall?

It is... ish

okay

great so it says right here uh bottom of the wall would be at 540 and the top of the wall 543 so at this corner it would be a three foot tall and then going up to 18 inches at this point

okay and here uh

it is I believe right at three foot for the most of this stretch. And then the secondary wall is

three. Okay, okay.

So and then there would be planting in between here that would pretty much screen that secondary wall.

The reason I was asking is as people are walking on the sidewalk, this is very visible here. And it felt so fortress like, especially with all the same size.

Like right here, about halfway down the wall, it's showing bottom of the wall, top of the wall. So that's only a foot difference. So you don't really see it. And

it's, you said three feet or about?

Back here where it's marked. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, so it's three foot at the tallest in this corner and then it works its way with the grade up to the sidewalk at the front of the property.

Okay. Well, I would back it off from the sidewalk and there will be, that's a pretty good hill. There will be, you know. Anyway, thank you.

Thank you. Well, from that last comment, the way I understand it, the building permit has already been issued.

The building permit was issued using a different stone that complied with the architecture review guidelines. Building permit wasn't required when it met that because the height in the front yard is less than... So basically when we adopted those architecture review guidelines, we said if the buildings meet these material standards and this height, then it's eligible for administrative approval. So that's what happened. Then they have slightly changed the materials. So the materials were no longer under the administrative approval option. So that's why it came here. So there is a building permit that's been issued using the other stone. The amendment process has not been approved yet because we sent the materials to you all.

There were, Chris, did you have a?

Just one further question. Just in regards to choosing this material, was it more from an aesthetic reason? Was it more from a cost reason that you've chosen to go away from the three different style of stones and the tumbled rock?

Actually going to with it.

I just have a final comment. The leveling out of your front yard that you did several years ago, I thought was beautiful. And I've always felt that that slope up was pretty steep, but I think it accentuated your house very well. I think this will actually help it in the long run because that I could see the water coming down into the neighbor's yard and developing gullies. So if everything works well, I think it should really be a very good addition.

There we have with...

Any further comment on the limestone? And if we understand this limestone is the block, is it the same color top? Okay. Not what we see over

there. It looked like the same color when it was soaking wet this morning. It has since dried in the back of our truck and it's a lighter color. So that is the shape. It's just it will match the color of the

block. We have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. I

move to approve as submitted second.

All in favor. Okay. Thanks for coming and showing it to us. okay now we'll move on to items three four and five which are one two one south merrimack i see the applicants are here and we'll of course get started with the staff report

it is located on the northwest corner of south merrimack and bonham and is zoned m3 the project see the renovation of an existing building into a mixed-use residential and commercial structure The renovation would be accompanied by the relocation of an adjacent alley, which will be discussed further under the PLAT application. The proposal introduces additional residential density to downtown, which is aligned with the intent of the M3 district and comprehensive plan. Much of the site configuration would remain consistent aside from relocation of utility infrastructure. New streetscape would be installed and public works recommended ride-in, ride-out only vehicle movements at the garage's entrance to address site visibility concerns. Parking would be accompanied via 96 on-site spaces and 80 spaces via the adjacent owned garage. I'll point out that there was an error at the beginning of your staff report that showed a higher number, but I just want to confirm that his plan to be about 80 spaces in the adjacent garage. And the parking agreement for this adjacent garage will require City Council approval. The proposal includes a request for alternative compliance to allow office uses to occupy the commercial space. Staff are of the opinion that the constraints of the existing site and financing structure limit the applicant's flexibility for programming the site. Staff are of opinion the proposal would meet the standard for alternative compliance provided that the commercial units were occupied within a reasonable time, that both commercial units had a primary entrance at the building exterior, in that both units incorporated signage. Staff recommending approval with the following conditions. One, that the streetscape plan to be approved by Public Works prior to commencing installation activities. Two, impacts of sidewalk closures and temporary pedestrian path requirements shall be evaluated by Public Works prior the issuance of a building permit. Three, vehicle access to the podium garage levels shall be limited to ride-in, ride-out only per the recommendation of Public Works. Four, occupancy of the commercial tenant spaces shall be achieved within six months of approval of a residential occupancy for the development. 5. Both commercial tenant spaces shall have primary entrances facing the building exterior. 6. Both commercial spaces shall install signage compliant with Chapter 425 minimum of one month after commercial occupancy. 7. A parking agreement to provide access to a minimum of 80 spaces located within the... within 500 feet walking distance of the property shall be maintained for the life of the project. I will note that you do have a condition eight that references bicycle parking. The applicants have since provided updated plans that show interior bicycle parking that meets the requirements. So condition eight is no longer necessary.

Thank you. And this will be site plan review. So who's going to speak? Of course.

Chris Cedergreen, architect. Kent Wankster, architect, HDA. So we'll go through. We'll just use your plans, right? Should we just use these? Yeah, let's just use yours.

Okay. All right. Okay. Cool.

So we'll get started just to move things along. So here we have the site plan that is exactly what's existing right now. Everything you see, with the exception of the new sidewalks and the tree plantings, is all going to be new. But everything else is existing. We've added a lot of landscaping, which we can show you. we're keeping the historic tax credits that we've been approved to receive, which really allow this project to move forward and to be financeable, both from a construction loan standpoint, long-term financing. Everything has to remain exactly as it exists on what's called the day of existence, or when they set it. So we can't change the exterior of the building. We can't change the color of anything. We can't the window frames. If we replace anything, it has to match exactly what was there. So any sort of alterations on the podium or on the building unless they're for code, if they're a code-driven reason, we cannot make any changes to the building to, again, be able to get approved for the historic tax credits. So the only thing that we're doing, and it doesn't really show, but if you can show where the handicap ramp is being added.

At this location, we're adding an ADA ramp.

Like

the existing? Yep. So let me see the location here is where we're coming up with the ADA ramp up to there, and then it also shows that we shifted the alley for our discussions.

So the reason we had to shift the alley is because of the utilities, Ameren and American Water, they have new requirements for how their transformers, their gear, because we're a high-rise, we have to have a generator, standby generator. And then American water has a water vault that's a huge water ball it's like 16 feet long and eight feet wide and it's four and a half feet deep so that cannot go in the building and we don't have any place on the site. That isn't covered by the podium or the building. here you start to see the red the red elements are the electrical the transformers the switch gear the generator and that blue element right there is where the um the vault uh water vault um is on the on the south side of the building we have planters existing planters That are planted with with plant material, but there's also an existing the generator i'm sorry the transformers and switchgear. are located where that kind of where that blue square is that blue square now is really where we're going to bring their secondary source of water in from a fire standpoint. Well, those are really the only changes that are being made to the site around the building. We're cleaning, we're upgrading, we're adding planting. Anything that we add that's considered temporary, that could be removed in the future, we can do and that meets the National Park Service's requirements for historic tax credits. But if we lock it in and pour cast concrete or build something in, that's not considered removable. So we've added a lot of planters, they're all removable. all the dentures, anything else, the pavilions, the elements we've added just to enhance the plaza area and for the occupants, but also I think for the community by adding a lot of the planting that we're doing on the plaza enhances the pedestrian experience. But again, they all can be removed in the future. I think from the standpoint of the site, do we wanna talk about the planting?

landscaping well it's certainly part of the site plan so I would think go ahead with it then we will

that's those are all the city requirements for the public realm that have shown on the civil drawings Okay, here we go with the landscaping. So everything that is, I'm gonna start on the south side of the building. We have two ingress and egress points for the parking. They're distinct and separate from one another. So the one that's closest to Merrimack, it serves only 33 cars, 33 parking spaces on that level. The one that's further to the west serves the other 65 or so spaces. Those are connected to several levels below. There's four levels that are either below grade or semi-below grade that a lot of people, I didn't know that until we went into the building and really understood it, but you don't see that from the public realm. But those are, they have very low ceilings. There's issues with them from a life safety standpoint for some structural reasons. So we're going to mothball those and not use that parking. So that's why we've got the 93 spaces in this building. And then we have our bridge connection to the adjacent parking structure where there's another 80 spaces that will be available. So the planting, and I want to be able to I am on the on the right in right out, I thought that was for just the the eastern most in grassy grass point not the southern one, so we just need to clarify that. You can see the planting that's been that's been incorporated into not only the public realm, but the planters along the south side of the building. And then what our landscape architects calls the pork chop planters, those are existing. And so those are the most elevated above the plaza, those planted areas are. And they'll be done with a lot of colored landscape and shrubbery and flowers that are intended to be different colors throughout the seasons. We've also added those dark, strips. Those are the part of those are the what are considered temporary planters. And so because there's so much concrete, both vertically and horizontally that you see from the public realm, we've added those. There's light lighting in those, but those will be have plantings with flowers as well. And then there's a strip, a thin strip between the the podium wall and the sidewalk right there that gets planted at well. So there'll be a lot of planted. There's a lot of drip irrigation to take care of all of that. They're all connected through the planters. So from an irrigation standpoint and a maintenance standpoint, there'll be people out there obviously tending to all the shrubbery and all the planting. And then over on the alley, What we've done is we've created, because in the future as we develop the parcel to the north, where we can build about another 50 to 60 units over there if we choose to go in the future with residential. But there is, you can see kind of the textured area That is, yeah, that's east of the electrical equipment mall. And that's going to be a synthetic lawn that's for the pets in the future having a pet park. Right now, the pet park, the green space to the north, the future parcel, is used currently as a dog park. But we'll have to, as that gets developed, we'll need to have the pet park there in that space in between the ramp and the property to the north. And since we're building over the water vault, they won't allow anything other than gravel or the synthetic turf. So that's from a site plan standpoint, the landscaping element. Do we have anything else here Kent?

The existing planters will be repurposed and replanted as well up on the plaza. You can kind of see these little half moon spaces. Those are existing as well. They will be basically replanted.

I think the other thing you see there is the fountain. There's an existing fountain, and we're restoring that. We're talking to the Parks Department about how we might be able to convert that where people could actually use it. It's a conversation not only with the Parks Department or Park Service, but also with County Health. and meeting all their requirements. But right now, it's a fountain, and we're just looking at future options for how it can be an amenity for the residents of the building.

So will this podium level be open to the public?

You can see the area as you come in. The steps are all open to the public. And then these planters that we have that, yeah, kind of onto the entryway there, there's a gate, there's a fence to the left there that would separate. So everything to the right or to the north has access to the public. Everything to the south would be limited access primarily for the residents. We also will show on the architectural plans we provided access from the exterior storefronts to the space that's in the northeast corner of the ground floor for these commercial uses that we'll talk about as we get into the interior uses of the ground floor.

Okay, so the entrance walk in the northern part of the podium is still public. Correct. What is this fence going to look like?

It will, because again, National Park Service requires everything to match what's there existing. It just has to, what's there now doesn't meet code from a height standpoint and from the new posts or the verticals are too far apart. So we have to rebuild it all to match the existing look. And then this, if it's a fountain, it'll just be a, it'll be pretty a four foot fence that will, a gate with a gate.

The existing fence is basically a picket and a square top rail. So that's what we have to go back in and match. Chris mentioned his historical preservation aspect. We have to meet that design, just meeting the height requirements we need for the code.

But in the same location? Yes.

yeah

yes

but steve we have added because code where we've added the planters to the linear planners we have we have to have a guard rail there because we have quite a drop and so it does not meet code currently but it was when it was built it did but people can get up on those levels it's easy to access those levels and so we've got a 42 inch guard rails all the way around the building that we've added

Will it match the fence?

Absolutely. Yes, they have to. They have to match what's there right now. And we've got photos. I don't know where they are in this deck. It's

probably on here. We'll be able to see them. Okay. Here's all our architectural... I don't know if they're big enough.

Just... Yeah, there you start. You see the planters, the flowers behind them, the planting behind them. And then you see the fence that is right now it's right at 36 and we're going to 40. Actually, we're going to go to 43 or 44. So that will match the profiles. Again, it's a flat bar plate on the top and then pickets are also flat bar.

Now I understand the reason for this. Yeah.

Well, when you're there over that, it's a 13, 15-foot drop.

And

right now, it's only a three-foot guardrail.

Yeah. To the west, actually where the cursor kept moving. I'm sorry, this way? Yeah, right in there. What are those black

frames? Those are pavilions that we're adding that'll have a barbecue outdoor kitchen for the residents. So they're temporary. And they'd be like a shade X with a movable top for sun and rain and snow. So outdoor kitchens and dining areas.

Those are permitted by the NPS? Yeah, because they're removable. And that's all within the...

All within the plaza area, the podium

area, yeah. Let's go back to the alley. Okay. Okay. We don't really have a context plan of how the new alley meets the existing alley, which I believe goes all the way to Brentwood and also has a north. Oh, you have

that? Yeah. No,

no, we have that in

the rendering.

Oh, okay.

I think it'll help understand how much grade change there is, and it's really the last couple... right here so that's that steve is the the ada ramp that's been added right there yeah and then the alley yeah the alley would the alley then would be 20 feet of from from that um there's another 10 feet where the water vault's going to go and then there's another 20 feet so let me

roll back up to that

simple plan Right now, it's very steep going from from Merrimack down. Correct. So how does it meet the other alleys?

So the other alley is right here. You can see it basically identified as an alley. So the existing alley sits here. So it connects here. So we're just basically pouring additional concrete over that additional dimension that Chris mentioned And as you can kind of see the grade, it drops off about 20, 24 feet from basically this top elevation down to here, which then this is all slab asphalt concrete. So it ties into this. So then you can go on this way, migrate north or continue to go west.

Well, now seeing this, uh, I think it gets rid of my next question about the loading dock, because now you have a larger turnaround space than you do right now, which is extremely tight.

It gives you a little bit more space in here to maneuver any type of truck if you do come in here, if the truck can get over this hump due to the existence. but it will allow them to come in and back in or turn around within this proximity of this lot into here as well. Okay.

The remaining portion of that property is still under ownership by the development group? Correct, yes. As we had looked some previous time when you were looking at a PUD. Right. Is that really going to be buildable in the future?

Yeah, I actually laid out a, I've got a building laid out on it. So it's a 60 foot wide building. You know, we have, now this is all predicated on the alley when we build that. And as we talked in our last meeting about being able to vacate the alley at that point. So we would vacate the alley when that building gets built. If the valley, if for some reason the alley doesn't not get vacated, then that piece of land is pretty undevelopable.

Yeah. That's where I was going.

Yeah. Okay.

Well, that's really not part of what we're looking at, but I thought I'd better ask. I've taken up enough time. Helen, you want to go ahead?

Okay, on the podium level, the fence that you have to separate private from public. As I come up the stairs from the sidewalk, I bump into that fence. Can that fence be curved, angled?

We could, I mean, again, everything's got to fit within the kind of geometry that the park that exists already today. Now there isn't a fence there right now. We could probably chamfer. We probably set it back and push it to the right slightly. There's about 10 feet between the top step and where that fence is right now.

It just, it's jarring looking at it and thinking about if you're coming from the south and you know, I'm coming from the apartments diagonally across the street to visit, then I'm coming up those steps and they're monumental steps. And there's a fence that's 43 inches or so in front of me. Could that just be instead of a 90 degrees, curve

it? I wouldn't curve it, but I'd look at how we can create more space there to make it less jarring so it's not so close.

Yeah, it just really looks like... You said to a fencing contractor, put up a fence and they'll make it square. Curves, angles are more challenging. Which, you know, the planting areas, the water feature all have nice curves to them. And that just seems to be jarring. Now, that's my only question.

Susan.

Yeah, first for clarification, can you show me where the bike racks are going? The bike racks, where are you? I missed that.

Just to the top of the handicap ramp.

That just told me then, I guess. They are pretty accessible. Just want to make sure they're accessible for people, yeah.

We'll show

you.

All right, I'll just go this.

Getting sick.

I know, I am too. Oh wait, I already am. But no, we basically have them up on. Yeah,

you see them right there.

You're right here. Sorry. You can zoom in. I see them now.

That's good. OK.

Things go in farther, but we have identified them at this location up on the plaza area as they can come up the ADA ramp and then they're along this north side of the facade of the building.

I also had a question on the alternative compliance. Looking at the initial uses, it seemed to serve as primarily the building and that. Are they going to, not being a developer myself, I don't know anything about this. For the future, will they be developed or will they be structured in a way that they can be amenable to becoming a coffee shop or something else?

Will they

have the infrastructure and all that?

if you will, in our alternative compliance, that initially the retail is so far away from the street. Just the retail up at the corner, that small little restaurant, that's just got boarded up. It's just really tough to have retail work currently. But to be able to have the flexibility and that red area that you see there, and that's not...

This is not, I have a more current one on this thumb drive. So we

have exterior entrances, storefronts to those. We've got two spaces now. One is to be that they will move their offices from West County into Clayton and put them in . Will not only manage our building, they'll manage all the buildings that they operate in the area. So they will have a lot of outside traffic you know, coming and activating the space to the north is about 500 square feet. Developer RCD is gonna relocate offices from Kansas City. And he will do development out of that. So there'll be development business that'll be happening within that 500 square foot space. So those, the idea is they can be short term or long term as the market changes just to be able Or other uses to go in there, whether it's a wine bar, you know, a studio artist studio that kind of because we've made it smaller as well can be a little bit more. let's just say acceptable to a destination based type retail versus an impulse space, you know where you've got to be on the street you got to be able to see it and you can buy it be able to park easily and get it. Really, across Merrimack, it's kind of a pedestrian desert if you think about it over there. It's all parking. There's no pedestrians. So it's really tough, even though we're a secondary street off of Bonham, to have retail work there right from the get-go as we get this started. It's hard to find retail tenants that would even lease this space. So we can use it, we can activate it, and then we can make it flexible enough that it can be leased as retail space. market conditions change, because they will. There's no question as we get more residential downtown and more pedestrian activity, it definitely will happen. So having that flexibility is what we're proposing.

Great. And then the last issue I wanted to ask you about, way back when I think we talked about five to six affordable housing units. And then I think in your application, was it two? And where are we standing on that today?

Our goal is to have three. We're working with 2B right now with the whole program on the two, for sure, our desire is to have three affordable units.

Okay,

great. Thank you.

Jim? A handful of my questions revolve around that retail space, so I guess I hate to ask you, but if you could plug that in and see the updated plan, so... I guess while we're in the process, well, that just to save time, you had mentioned earlier that like, oh, we can talk about the right in right out for the two garages. So I guess it's probably important to talk about that. The option, I guess, from the city standpoint said to make both those both those garages right in right out. It sounds like. Your preference might be to make the one closer to the corner, right in, right out, and then not the other one. Further

west. There's more cars there. And really looking at the traffic, you know, and I think the report that was done earlier was about morning traffic. And I've been at the site a lot, and they're thinking about the left-hand turn onto Merrimack going north. There just isn't that much traffic there. Now, that all can change. And if we have to go right in, right then we have to, but I think practicality-wise, definitely for the one that's furthest to the east. One that's west, there's just quite a bit more space there, and you don't have cars backing up on that left-hand turn lane.

34 spots at the corner, you wouldn't have as much of a problem with that if that one was right in, right out, as long as the other one was...

It's not the safest, I think, kind of turn conditions there anyhow. So if

that difference was split, you'd be okay with that? Okay.

Here's that plan that basically the eastern access and the parking below that. Hmm. And when it's kind of update. This is kind of how we divided and relocated the entry to the apartment on the backside of the corridor and created two additional spaces up here as Chris mentioned, which has exterior exterior access from the door.

Did you are those larger than we had seen before.

No, they're still in that 1,150, 1,200 square foot total. The one that's nearest the lobby is 620, I think, or 640, and the other one's 500 square feet to the north. Plus, you can have outdoor seating out in front of those, especially if they do become something more food and beverage related.

So the staff report said that as far as those two spaces, that if each commercial unit is immediately occupied, has a separate exterior entrance serving as its primary entry, and is accompanied by signage, this configuration will likely generate the perception of activation. So I see two separate entrances. I assume everyone who's occupying it is part of this project, so I assume being open at the opening of the building shouldn't be a problem. And then as far as the The qualifiers that they have, both commercial units should be occupied within six months of occupancy. You said that shouldn't be a problem. Exterior entrances and signage, you don't have a problem with any of that?

No, because signage is temporary too. The parks department or park service should do

that. And I think as far as the uses of that office and the flexibility and everything, you answered everything I have with that. Sorry, there's several pages in this packet. There's a lot of flipping around for... I would assume also, I know phase two is hypothetical, but I know something that we discussed back in October is that obviously the density and stuff like that would make retail more of a possibility than I know. You know, there's a lot of things like an alley vacation and stuff like that. But I assume especially if retail was foregone, that consumer emphasis area, if that retail was foregone in this stage because of the alternative compliance, that is something that you're still thinking more for phase two. If as far as that street level retail, assuming phase two comes about, I know that's not a guarantee.

And we have a 20 foot setback off the sidewalk. So it would meet that, have an opportunity for any sort of outdoor use. but it would be right there on the corner. It would really, well, I shouldn't say for certain, but I would think it's going to be on the south, sorry, the southeast corner of it. Okay.

Okay, well then, as far as alternative compliance, I'm usually very skeptical for alternative compliance. I can say I think you've made a very strong case. I think for the National Register and the requirements of that. And especially being that bottom is where the consumer emphasis area is not Merrimack. It's not like you can exactly, you can't alter that facade to place an entry to. So even if we had basically retail in this project, it wouldn't, I don't know that it'd be serving the exact purpose that the consumer emphasis area has. So I personally am okay with the alternative compliance here. I will say something that is said, and this is, Maybe not necessarily for this project as much as anyone who might be listening. It does say in the staff report, staff recognize that this existing condition is different from conditions created by a new development. And I think that's very important for others who might be paying attention or thinking about future projects. That I think the National Register is what locks a lot of this in. And if it wasn't for the National Register, I... I don't know if I would be as amenable to the alternative compliance, but given the way the circumstances are, I think I am.

One other thing that just because the glass is so dark right now, retail really suffers when it's dark bronze glass. And we can't change that. That's what even makes it more of a...

And even with the tinting on some of the other buildings, I'll say just from personal experience, we went to go eat at Peel the other day and my wife said, oh, it looks like they're closed. And it wasn't just the tinting on the building is so dark, it's hard to tell that there's even people in there. So I understand the problems that come with that. PB,

Harmon Zuckerman, Chris. Yes. PB, Harmon

Zuckerberg, The other. PB, HarmonZuckerberg, Just a couple of questions and just clarifications. PB, Harmonzuckerberg, And I don't know if this is within site plan or or straying over to architecture review but When you spoke about the garage infill, not using those lower levels of those, how are you proposing to actually mothball those levels? And how permanent is the mothballing of that? Because I'm just foreseeing a situation where suddenly a tenant is having to use levels three and four or something. Yeah, we've got additional parking, and they're down in there, and then...

We have to block everything off and you can't even have a full door. You have to have a hatch to go into those spaces. We will slightly ventilate them. We'll have smoke detectors and we'll have emergency lighting down there.

Okay. So they will be closed off.

Nobody's going to be able to just say, yeah, they will park down

here.

Okay. We're building a wall with only a four by four access panel. So there's no door. You can't get in that area.

And then the uplighting that is called out for in the plan. I hadn't seen anything specific as to what that uplighting looks, and I know it's kind of a – I mean, Clayton is a beacon as it is, but in interest of any sort of like dark sky interest.

We can get you – because I think the note uplighting, there's a vertical light with a hood that's – we want to light the flowers, not the sky.

Okay.

So we can certainly get you a cut sheet on that. Okay. Okay.

And then, you know, I got really excited initially looking at the retail space on this because I thought this would be – I love the idea of a little wine bar or a little coffee shop. And I don't know if it really – the alternative compliance, I struggle with it because I don't think it really does fit. I don't think het meets the CEA requirement. What Jim did say about the constraints that are put on by the historical registry, I think does make me view it from a different lens. And also the fact that floor to ceiling glass, I think there's nothing less appealing than floor to ceiling glass and looking and seeing someone working behind a computer. Like, why do you have floor to ceiling glass? But in this case, you really can't see in. So it doesn't matter. The idea... That either to be residential or revive capital development will bring customer visits and public engagement. It seems a bit of a stretch. I can't imagine that it's going to be a lot of foot traffic, but I can't think of with the whole plaza level. I really can't think in the platform that any retail really would work other than a coffee shop or something that would primarily serve the tenants of the building. So I understand. And so weighing in my mind, the balance between having this building that has sat empty for so long and would continue to sit empty or potentially getting two retail spaces that maybe they'll bring some people, maybe they won't. I really don't have any issues with the alternative compliance at this stage too, so. Thank you for what you've done. I don't have an issue with the alley either. I think that I also have been walking around that area and looking to see kind of a ghost town, whether that will change with these units here and there will be more traffic is to be seen. But I don't see a real issue particularly since you've added in kind of that turnaround space and the loading dock sort of area down there. So nothing further.

Laird? Any comments from the audience? Sally? Hello,

my name is Kathleen Gunn, 329 North Bemiston Avenue. I just wanted to say that I am very, very supportive of this project because I am impressed with what they are doing with a building that has sat vacant for a really long time and has a lot of problems around it. And and I'm just impressed based on the fact that they had a major project that didn't happen, and then they stuck at it, and they got those dark tax credits. So I'm appreciative of that. I'm also appreciative of the fact that they are committed to, I've been told, three affordable units, which is, I'd like to see more, but I am happy that they are committed even though they are not forced to do it. So I would like to thank them for that, and also... There was something else I was going to say. And the fact that we're going to have a residential building and it does not require the building or another parking garage. So those are three things that I think are just hopefully that doesn't get lost in the shuffle with alley vacations and, you know, floor to ceiling glass and that kind of stuff. That's it. Thank you. Bye.

Sally.

Sally Cohn, and I agree with everything. I'm so glad to see this beautiful building being sparkled up again. I'm real happy about that. I'm wondering if that alley does shift over. What happens to the alley to the west? Does that mean that The property back there, when it's developed, that there will be a jog in the alley? I'm not sure what goes on with that. And does the turnaround space for loading and unloading at the loading duct, how does that change should that western parking lot go under construction? So I don't, am I making?

We did have a drawing up here and the relocated alley will not align directly with the western portion. Correct. But because you have one coming like this and one like that, there's a much larger intersection now. Okay. Which I think will actually help that very tight loading dock.

And that intersection will stay that size?

Tight. The loading dock stays, but the paved area in front of it is about twice as large.

Yeah, there's a large space area between all the buildings back there. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Okay. Well, thank you. That makes

sense. There's a good little shot on civil rights. That

makes sense, thank you. And I also, I think Helen had a good point about the What I'm seeing as the loss of the symmetry that you all talked so much about up there, you come up these stairs and all of a sudden it's cut off. And I think you're doing that in order to make private outdoor space for the residents. And I'm wondering if there's any available space on the roof for resident amenities. Or can you cantilever out over that really large new alley and put barbecue pits or something out there at a level? I really hate to, I don't know what those little squares are, but are they planters? Those

are tree planters, yeah.

In the middle of the big, and you have to keep those in existence, right? And so you've got the-

Those are not.

Those little, those

little. There's two flagpoles that are in that clouded area. What, in the

middle of the, right in front of the doorway into the building, those four?

Those four are trees. Yeah, those are going to be tree planters. So fairly larger trees that.

And then you've got the fence right up to them. Yes. So it's that lack of symmetry again that's jarring to me as well. And you have to keep those planters there, right? Because they're original to the design.

No, they're not original to design. Oh, you're adding those? Just to bring some greenery to this. It's a very... I know, there's a lot of concrete. There's a ton of concrete, I know. Let us take a look at that fence. Again, it's one thing if it's going to be a pool because they have to be six feet tall. If it's just a fountain, then they only have to be four feet tall. But the configuration of it, we'll look at how we can adjust that just to relax that jarring issue. Right,

because there's no more symmetry even with those four new trees. Maybe they go inside, you know, they shift.

They're heavy.

So they have to

sit on a structural structure below. That's why they're there. but also to kind of get that promenade going up. So the entrance is clear for the residents coming in because everything else is locked. You know, you, everything to the left would be, would be locked and we're trying to create some space for, there's not a lot of space, frankly, for any sunning or outdoor seating. And so we were just trying to get,

get that. What is on the roof?

It's filled with a lot of mechanical equipment right now.

Yeah.

All mechanical up there.

The entire. Yeah. And we cannot change. We can't, the whole, um, If

you look on Google Earth, the roof is really covered with mechanicals. It's

all cluttered. And it's old-fashioned big stuff. We've got to heat and cool our buildings too, so we've got to put new stuff

in. But

it all has to be out of visual sight. We're not building any other screens. like shoehorning everything in there.

Are you able to actually cantilever off the building on a historic structure?

Well, perhaps not on the alley side. I mean, we are doing that with the 88.

Right. Oh, that's good. When I

cantilever it, but it's a separate structure, but attach it. They've approved it, the Park Service.

Following up on what Sally said and Helen said, have you looked at the front fencing? Maybe instead of coming so far out that maybe it steps back in like three steps. So it's a little more gentle coming up the wide steps into the entry.

let's talk about where you're talking. You want to go to the rendering or to the

plan? Go to the plan. He's talking about that. Yeah, see where it comes north and south from the big black And then it turns and goes west. What if it came out a little bit and then it stepped back?

That's what I was just saying. I think we would, I mean, we'll look at a curve. But I think if it's something that actually steps back and inverses, you know, right now, again, it's about 10 feet back. We could probably end up with 15. 15 is from here to you almost. Yeah. And it's see-through. It's not a solid bench.

Larry?

and that's kind of the economy between the public realm area and and public versus make So it's a great point. Now, that's the fence you were talking about, Steve? Is that the fence you were Talking about? Yes. Okay. All right. I didn't know if it was the ones around the planters, the linear planters.

No.

Okay.

Just another point. Wouldn't some of this, I think a lot of this might hinge on the fact of whether it ends up being a pool or not, because I think if it I know the original intent was a pool, and I get the sense, and I could be wrong, that you guys would ideally like it to be a pool from an amenity standpoint and just marketing the building. If it is a pool, having that space is a little more necessary to have lounging area by the pool. If through this process it ends up only being a fountain, perhaps you don't need quite as much space to that side of the fountain, and that changes some of this. That's

true.

I don't know if... I don't know how we could add maybe something into the language where staff can review that part of it later or something like that, because we don't have the information of whether the Parks Department will allow it to be a pool or not. Or just have that thought be out there that maybe... maybe there's more space available if it doesn't end up being able to be a pool. Because then I don't think we have, I have a feeling if it's not a pool that we don't have this kind of point of contention.

So just so everybody knows, I mean, we made this decision about two weeks ago to go into National Park Service to see if we could modify the fountain for the pool. I think the chances of making it happen are less than 50%. So it's more than likely going to be a fountain. But yeah, we'd love for it to be a pool. The residents, I think, are the ones that really want for it to be cool. And we've looked at the roof. There's just no other place for it where it could go. Now, we can look at the configuration of the fence so we relax that concern that's been raised. We'll happily do that.

OK. Other comments? I know there's a hand up online, but just as you consider the fence and thinking about the symmetry of it, if it ends up being a pool, which would be nice, if it were to follow the symmetry of the bed on the other side in the sense that it was curved, it's hard to say. Yeah, that's right. following this, and you're slightly curving up there. At least you've got some sort of symmetry, if possible, if you're investigating a curved fence. But I understand the logistics too. I mean, you have a flat bar fence that you have to work with and flat up tops.

We'll take a look. We'll look at some options. Too quick. We've looked at a lot so far

for many years. Yeah, long time. Two quick things. First of all, thank you for bringing up dark sky compliance and your commitment to have those hooded, even though it says the uplight. Secondly, in a prior conversation, there was discussion that you intended to develop the property next door at least temporarily until you develop it into an accessible park. Is that still what you're planning to do? Green space for, not with playground structures and all that, but open green space.

A grassy area like it is now. Now, what we are talking about doing is the first 10 feet, what breaks off there. We're going to do some extra planning and maybe even some arborvitae or something to really kind of screen. So the dogs and everything that are behind it. And so there's kind of some park benches and it would be an interim solution until that property develops. We showed that the last go around and the owner was, we were talking today and he said that's, he still wants to do that. That would just be that area. Can you

think you have to get rid of? Yeah. All right. I'll let

you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the only reason that was taken off was more technicality than anything, because we had the alley moving and then it was technically a second property. Now that could be resolved by the end of this, because this all could be combined into one lot and stuff, but that was,

There's a few moving parts.

If that vacant land, where I think I saw it labeled as a dog park on one of the drawings, will the property owner commit to maintaining it? I mean, if it really is... It's

being used as a dog park. Most everybody we talk to who knows the property knows it because they take their dogs there. So they are maintaining it? Yes, the answer is of course. Because we have residents now living there, we've got to maintain it. Not only for them, but for the neighborhood.

We do have a hand up online. Scott, do you hear us? Oh, you're muted.

I hear you now. Hi, this is Scott Schweizer of 708

Audubon Drive.

confirm you can hear me now? Yes. Is anybody able to hear me? Oh, good. Well, it's great to see this project moving forward. Just a quick question on the fencing, the new fencing around the decking that we've all been talking about with respect to the historic tax credits. I know it was mentioned that the fencing was designed to be in line with the smaller amounts of metal railing that's there. I'm just questioning whether there's any leeway with the Park Service on that and whether... to the extent that the fencing is considered temporary and for kind of a different purpose from some of the existing railing. Some of the existing railings doesn't even necessarily look original, like the mismatched railing going up the steps. So I'm just wondering if it's possible to have another material for the railing to the extent that defense can be considered something separate from the railing in terms of historic tax credits and possibly allow a different material. It might help with the cemetery issues talked about walking into a fence up the steps, and also in terms of the consumer emphasis area, the CEA, it might just having some sort of fence that's maybe less extreme would kind of bring the sidewalk and the streetscape more into the property than feeling it's really fenced off with a big metal structure. So um that was just my question whether there's any leeway at all with the historic tax credits considering a fence is considered temporary and also could be considered um a different use from the uh the smaller railings that are there that are um trying to um that the the architects are trying to match

yeah when um when we got our our first approval They wanted to see the materials and how we handled the ramp, how we handled the pool conversion, and how we handled all the railings. And they were very clear about all the railings, and I'm talking guardrails now, had to match. The fences could be considered temporary. I think, frankly, the guardrails, they're like an inch and a quarter bar every four inches now instead of every six inches. And then at the top rail is a flat bar as well. They're pretty elegant, I think, as if we can certainly look at the fence and consider it being temporary. We just need to think about the materiality and profile and how it matches everything else in introducing one more thing onto the plaza. So maybe there are some options we can look at. But at the end of the day, we still have to make sure that NPS approves it.

Will that fencing have to match an original fence material?

Profiles,

it will. Profile, yes. What about material?

Yeah, it's steel. Now, they make some aluminum fences that match all the profiles.

Will they allow the

aluminum? Yeah, as long as the profiles all match it.

Yeah.

part of the process of the historical process that we as chris mentioned there's no documentation of this building so we have to document it is this is our as as condition so anything on place or property or anything in that nature we have to come in and match those profiles colors things in that nature start trying to change profiles and go bigger mullions or bigger railings and top railings they'll basically reject us right from there. So we have to follow that compliance from their standpoint. Earlier, we were allowed to basically increase heights of guardrails, things like that, to meet code. That they understand. But we have to follow the same design concept.

Any other comments? I have just a few, of course. I had two main problems before tonight in reading everything. One of them was the alley, but I feel much better about it now. I think the configuration, seeing it on the square block context, it seemed to answer many questions. Not so crazy about the electrical items going into the current alley, but I don't see any other option for it. The second one was the consumer emphasis area requirements and the alternative compliance requirements. Chris, you may remember that up until the pandemic, we had a series of retail and restaurants on South Merrimack, mainly at the next corner north. None of them ever lasted. Merrimack is not really a walkable street. Having the county justice center directly across the street really kills activity on that street. And the fact that the 1,100, 1,200 square feet is not on the street only makes it worse. To top that off, retail has really died for the time being. We'd like to see it come back. But for all that reason, I think I would support the alternative compliance where or I was really against it. And I think that's a very difficult decision for this board to make.

I completely understand.

And I'm sure we may have some of our members that disagree with me, but

it's

just my...

Interestingly enough, and not to delay things or extend them, even when we did foresight point retailer said i want all that stuff pulled right out on the on the sidewalk and we said there's just no way we can kind of you know and it's worked i think everybody likes none they've seen it and it works but anything more than 15 feet off sidewalk is is really unless it's just the best coffee bar or wine bar and everybody's going there it's a destination

um well here you're not only far away, but you're also higher

than

the walkable street. So it's all working against retail in that location. If you can make it work, I'm sure we'd love to see it.

I think someday

it will.

As long as we provide the flexibility that it can happen. Don't provide no flexibility so it cannot happen.

So yeah. Did we have any other hands up? Okay. Well, before we take a vote, I'd like to thank Sally Cohn and Kathleen Gunn, I guess she left, and Scott Sweezer also for their comments. We appreciate the citizens coming out and speaking.

Steve, I wanted to address Jim's comment from earlier with related to the write-in, write-out. I think modifying the condition to allow the applicant to work with public works staff to monitor what is necessary for the two different access points, I wouldn't really feel comfortable with us. That's a professional decision from their evaluation that's recommended, but I recognize they could have modified Meaning one versus the other so well, I would recommend just deferring that over to be something that they'll work out directly with Public Works

Anyone have any further question on that? Okay, I think we have multiple staff recommendations which I'm sure you've read and And you're nodding your head. So do you have any issues with any of those?

I'm nodding my head like I'm hearing you.

I'm

looking for agreement.

I think we're down to maybe five. I'm talking about the first list, so I just want to make sure.

the only one that we recommended to that you didn't necessarily need was that one related to cycling and then anna suggested the revision to the other ones um the other conditions would remain in place so

it's number number three

So we'll just, yeah, we'll just go over these again. So number one was that the streetscape plan is to be approved by the Public Works Department prior to commencing installation activities. Two, impacts of sidewalk closures and temporary pedestrian path requirements shall be evaluated by Public Works prior to issuance of a building permit. Three, vehicle access to the podium garage level shall be limited to ride-in, ride-out only for the recommendation of Public Works. So that's the one I want to talk about modifying. And then occupancy of the commercial tenant space shall be achieved within six months of approval of the residential occupancy for the development. Five, both commercial tenant spaces shall have primary entrances to the building exterior. So that one has been clarified as well. And then both commercial spaces shall install signage compliant with Chapter 425 within one month of commercial occupancy. Seven, a parking agreement providing access to a minimum of 80 spaces located within 500 feet walking distance of the property shall be maintained for the life of the project. Then eight was the bike one that is no longer needed.

Now I see you agree. Yes. I just want to make sure. I'm

hearing and agreeing.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay.

Ready.

Okay. I move to approve with the staff recommendations and working with the staff to resolve the fencing as you come up the steps, the monumental steps.

Second.

Oh. Also, to modify staff recommendation three, that the vehicle access to the podium garage level nearest Miramac shall be right in and right out only.

Not

us. Okay, public works to determine. Okay. Right in, right out.

Okay, I second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. We're not done. Okay, we will move on now to architectural review. And again, we'll start with the staff report. Okay, this is...

Building comprises a combination of tan brick, aggregate panels and metal. These materials would be restored. Windows would be replaced with new insulated glass. New metal fencing and railings would be installed around the perimeter of the podium and bisecting the podium between public and private spaces. Landscaping will replace concrete and utility infrastructure along Bonham. Existing planter beds along the podium and along Merrimack will see new plantings. A new ADA compliant ramp would be installed on the north side of the podium. City standard street cape would be installed along the limits along Bonham and South Merrimack. staff have the opinion that the proposed changes are likely to have a minimal digital impact and recommend approval is submitted okay

this is ours okay yes why don't you go to the beginning we'll just

Well, everybody's very well aware now of where the building is and the existing conditions and how we're addressing them. But we'll just go through kind of context. And so everybody appreciates what's there right now and then how we're addressing sort of enhancements and improvements to the building to still meet the National Park Service and SHPO's requirements, SHPO's the state historic requirements. Okay, go ahead. I think you can all kind of read these. I think unless somebody wants to stop us, but I think you really get on the upper left-hand corner here, you really get the sense of what that, the quartz parking garage has done to South Merrimack. And so it's really pretty. If anybody's going to walk anywhere, it's the shortest route, but they're going to be on the west side of Merrimack. versus the East. Go ahead. So this is proposed on the left. We've just cleaned everything up, added the planting, enhanced these trees where existing trees are at the corner of Merrimack and Bonham are really on their last leg. And so those are being removed and new plantings are being put in, especially to deal with all the view corridors, view triangles that we have to maintain. All the copper that's out there, you know, is getting cleaned and refurbished, repaired. But we're keeping the color as we're not changing the color. We're keeping the patina. Everything is going to look very, very much the same as it is now. Structure is newer, repaired. Maybe a change. All the planting beds have been had been rebuilt other ones down below been rebuilt the garage doors. This is kind of interesting. They have to match exactly what's there. So the door that's that's furthest to the west has got a big exterior roll up on it. We have to replace the door like that. That's what National Park Service requires So you'll see the same door, it'll just be new. It'll look the same. It'll just be new

Go ahead to the next One question just on the rendering.

Yes.

I'm seeing that the brick color is different. Is that just?

Cleaning.

OK.

Cleaning and Photoshop. OK. But we can't change it. And then you can see on the right, everything's boarded up on the storefront. But the glass has been added back in on the left that you see that we talked about earlier. That kind of archy. element that's in between the grand stair uh going into the building that's just going to get cleaned and because it's it is what it is um i think we let's this just shows you the parking garage you know uh to the left the city garage that we're going to take 80 spaces from and how we connect into it and the elevator and the steps that are there

Where is the connection?

The connection to the garage is on basically the first level into this vestibule here.

And it exists there currently. Ever since the garage was built, that connection has been there because that garage was really built for this building in large part and Clayton-on-the-Park. Yeah, keep going. Good

title. Here's the overall plan of the second level, the garage. As we mentioned previously, there's two other levels below it. We're basically walling it off at this location here to prevent pedestrians and residents to go into that level. To the right is first level as you enter on The east side of the property is there's 32 parking spaces there.

The green space up there is all common space for the residents. There's a game room and some meeting rooms, some storage, bicycle storage you can see there. Yeah, that's tenant storage. To the left is the bike storage. They can come in through the loading dock or through off the alley. And we have a dog wash area just right there. So a few elements down there. And then all back of the house, shop kind of space in the blue, or electrical or trash.

And then as we come up, this is the plaza plan that you've seen before. This, I guess, really is. color or the correct name of it, but these are the retail spaces that we've been talking about. The yellow spaces are the resident apartments on this first level and the green spaces are the amenity spaces. One will be a fitness area and then this area at the front, excuse me, will be more of a club room kind of activity space, group meeting space. Dave Kuntz, As we talked previously we we talked about the fountain and then on this South side is where we've talked about having the barbecue grills and covers and some soft seating areas and then as fire

pits we have fire out there and yeah. Don't do much along the west side because units look out to there. The fitness center will have some outdoor activity there. And I think just looking, I think we've gone through the plans before. They're pretty self-explanatory. What you see on the one on the right with the yellow is floors two through 10 and then level 11. is the penthouse floor it has an existing step back area um that will have doors the existing doors are there they have to remain where they are and they will have access out to that space we're putting a 42 inch guard rail right now there's a 36 inch guard rail there so we're putting a 40 to i'm going to put a 48 in around that perimeter and the next one you're starting to see all the um mechanical units that are sitting up there within the confines of the existing screen wall of the...

How wide is that 11th floor balcony all the way around?

It's really shallow. It's no more than about 40 inches. So again, we can't change it. But because working with our code consultant and because it's being called the 11th floor existing condition, people will be able to step out there. But at least have the fresh air. That's the whole idea.

So those doors would open? Yes. On levels 2 through 10, while we're looking at it, what are the sizes of those units, square footage-wise?

We've got some studios that are in the 560 range. We've got two bedrooms that are right at around 1150. 1150. So we have 12 units. But there's, it's a, we've got the mix to be as provide us provided us with the mix. And obviously, we have existing conditions we got to deal with. But that's what we're able to get in there. Some small ones that, again, are the studio types, but we got more one bedrooms and holes, and then two

And I may have to ask the staff, do we have a minimum size for a rentable unit? What about, I think there are some bedrooms that look like they do not have a window. I didn't mean to break

in. That's pretty typical design on a studio. Space is more on the glass.

If you want, we can get into them. If you want to get into the unit design like that one, that's your point. That's one of the convertibles.

Steve, I feel like there is a minimal requirement and that's what the market will bear. I mean, in a way, if someone is willing to pay for 500 square feet without a window, and if you've just identified that there are people willing to do that, then that's the best. Well, they all have a window

somewhere in the unit. Hopefully,

yeah. There's a unit there that's a convertible that has the open wall. And so it has access to the window.

Typical studio, and this is your convertible, as you mentioned. And we were going to

leave them open, and then B2 said, they said, we want them to feel like it's a one-bedroom. So that was really driven by a market-driven directive. Okay. What you're seeing is just there's a lot of railings. That's all those dark areas. And then up on the penthouse, you see some openings that have gone into there, but those are going to have screens in front of them. So you're still going to have that feeling of the complete penthouse, the metal cladding that's on the penthouse.

As we mentioned, all the existing windows are stained.

What about the windows

all new all new

glazing

yeah there right now it's all single glazed on the punched openings so we're going to have dual glazed. Everything on 11 and on one is already doing away so we're replay some pieces, but leaving a lot of it, since it's it's. Double glazed and functioning properly.

The image is just representation of the building section. Level is these two locking out. This is the level. Color is based on, as you've seen, your back house, amenity spaces. Tower from this level one. Amazing plaza area as you can kind of see the differences between grade from the street and then the different The size of the garage as well We already talked about And then this represents

This is kind of precedent imagery of going to mid-century modern. And the feel will definitely get in the common, most of the common areas, some of the penthouse units. And then we're just getting started on really finalizing materials and finishes. But the feel is more like you're seeing on this board and the next one. And it's really interesting. Our owner has said that we're going to be under the market from the standpoint of cost and rent, but also providing something that isn't just the sameness that we tend to be seeing over and over in so many of the multi-family that are in a similar kind of market. So we know we don't have a lot of glass in our exterior walls. We've got to make sure that our common areas, our amenities, our corridors, our elevators, our units are distinct from much of what else has been developed in the whole region, really. But definitely in the more urban areas.

Although we're not really deciding anything, but we appreciate seeing hopefully what the finishes and the materials will be. And I think that helps me understand the post-dispatch article from last week, where it did state that the KC developer calls for 118 luxury apartments at the vacant office building. I wasn't sure how you would do it, but I think the finishes and the material can go a long way.

And also having 12 units per floor, you know, your on-floor community is much smaller. You're not running into so many people. The noise issues are less and the disturbance issues are less. The trash area, the chute is located right next to the elevators. There's some existing shaft ways there that we were able to use. And, you know, thinking about all those kinds of things are, you don't always think, people don't always think about when they're moving in and then they all see a nice bright light But when it comes down to really living there, how do you live? So that's what's important, not only on the plaza and the amenity areas, but all the common areas inside as well.

Did I read the plans correctly that there are two exit stairs? Sort of the intertwined ones in the same shaft?

They're not in the same shaft. They're in two separate distinctions. They're very separated. They're not what's termed a scissor stair. um so it looks there's a there's a center wall in between the stairs steve oh yeah so it's two stairs that just are interlocked like dna

i took that old previous image out because it was more geared towards all right So this side, let's just say you come in on this side. You basically, on the right-hand side, you'll go up, and left-hand side, this is separated. Then on the other side, you'll down, and then you'll go up. Basically, the wall is a six-inch wall that sits there in place, and then the floor... There are two separate stairs.

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's existing condition and they're all poured in place concrete. CMU around the elevator shafts. We're adding some steel in here. I think we've mentioned that to bring our seismic bracing up to meet code. So that's occurring and it's hard to see on this plan. Well, you can see it over on the plan on the right, the double wall up in the right-hand corner. And so there's kind of an L there,

and

then just come down and another L there. And those go down to grade level, and then we're just doing some reinforcing of columns down through the parking levels.

That's great, because it used to be the 10th floor, you could feel the building moving. Right,

yes. I think that was

the

materials,

yeah. The last image is two renderings put together.

I guess in closing on this part, when you first look at the building and say, man, that's just kind of an old-fashioned building. But if you really think about cleaning it up and taking the materiality but also saving a building, and then taking this whole mid-century modern approach, I think the building is going to end up being a star. It may not be the shiniest star in the city, but I think the fact of what it was, and just think about the energy. We're not tearing it down. We're saving the building, all that concrete, all that construction activity. And so you've got all the bones that are there. Now we've just got to Use the same wrapper on the exterior, but it's what happens inside, like life in so many ways. What's going to really be important? How do you make people feel?

We've lost a lot of our mid-century buildings in Clayton. Yes. And it's good to see that we're keeping this one instead of leveling it and putting something new up. Yes,

for

sure.

And the historic things brings another element to it, but not everybody's going to be able to get a historic designation. So how that all gets approached in these kind of meetings and with the developers and architects and all that solve it is going to be, because a lot of the mid-century buildings that do exist here right now are a lot closer to the street. Nobody has this big plaza like this. Pierre Laclede's got a fairly sizable plaza, right? But not as deep as this.

I think this plaza, percentage-wise, is larger than what Pierre MacLean is. Yes. Percentage-wise of the site. Yeah. Other comments?

All of my questions have been answered. So thank you.

Susan?

Nothing more. I look forward to seeing this go forward.

Jim? I think the historic designation makes it pretty easy because what's there now is what it's going to look like afterwards. So I can't really come up with anything to ask.

Chris? Nothing further. Thank you for all the explanation. Later.

Allie?

I would just... I would just love to see more trees, especially around that fountain area, which you're hopeful of bringing the residents out to. It will help give them coverage. And there are trees there now, and I don't know if those are... yews or boxwoods or whatever that green is they tend to be destroyed by the dog urine and unless you put some sort of elevation and then plant them in there they just they just end up not they don't make it so

yeah anyway other they're not There were.

Well, but there are trees. Are those street trees that you're going to go back? I thought

you meant in the plant.

No, no, no, no. The corner. Yeah. Just bank it in and nobody will see that fountain area. So anyway, I'm excited what you're doing.

I assume there's no one else online. Okay. Well, we have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted.

I move to approve as submitted second.

All in favor. Aye. Okay. We've got one more to do. All

right.

But I think we've probably talked about it also. Yes.

Yeah.

But we'll start with the staff report.

Okay.

Since we've covered a lot of it, I'll just kind of skip straight to the point. The applicant has provided the alley vacation documents and the subdivision plat dedicating the new alley. The plat to consolidate the vacated alley with the lot to the south is still outstanding. And so staff recommending that it be continued to the next meeting date to allow the applicant to provide that updated consolidation plat.

Comments on that?

We did meet some bounds. We're missing, let's fast forward.

Yeah, I saw that you guys submitted that updated legal description. So let me clarify the other one here. So this is the page that shows the alley being vacated. And then we have a page here that shows the new alley being dedicated. But there's not actually a page or updated description that shows that this vacated space will be added to the existing lot. Okay. I just want to make sure. Okay.

So is that basically a note? A note that gets added?

You would provide a similar page like this showing the new consolidated lot. Okay. So we need a new consolidated lot.

Ryan, I have a question. You said you would want that continued to a future meeting. Is that something that you feel would need to be moved to a future meeting or is that something that could be staff approved since it seems like it's pretty much a technicality? If we were okay with that.

Yeah, so the plat will require council approval either way. So if you're comfortable with them adding, because their surveyor, their engineer who ever drew the plat, they could add a boundary, the property description of the same plat or they could provide a second plat sheet and that's up to you guys and your surveyor. So if you are comfortable with them, as long as you can do a condition of approval, the council will have to sign off on anything before we can formally approve it. So you could make a recommendation to move it to the council with a condition that they provide the corrected

draft plat. Perfect. Thank you for clarifying that. Are you comfortable with that, Jim? I would be more comfortable with that than delaying it two weeks.

I agree. Okay.

Any

other comments?

No. Okay. I move to to allow the applicant to submit the necessary plat to the staff and then to the city council.

So to clarify, are you recommending that you recommend approval of the plat to the council with the condition that the revised plat showing the consolidation of the vacated alley is provided prior to the council meeting?

Yes. Exactly. Second. Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Well, thank you for coming back. putting up with us. I

hope this is, I don't mean it to be the last time, but we've been here quite a few times before. Not on just this solution, but the previous ones. I

think it's the third go-around, isn't it? Easily.

Maybe I'm counting four.

Four?

Yeah. At least we had a preliminary. A preliminary. Yes, we did. One, yeah.

Hey, Steve, a point of procedure. I don't think we had a second on that motion that we just did.

Yeah, I did. Second. Okay.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Okay. Well, thank you. We appreciate it. We look forward to it going forward. Wow.

And we really appreciate Ana and Ryan. They had some interesting moments with us, but I think we got there. So thanks, guys, very

much.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. Well, we've come to the end. Blair, do you have any comments? Are you going to come back? OK. No. Sometimes they're much longer. Chris?

Welcome, Blair. Glad you're here.

Chris, was that it? No.

Jim? Welcome, Blair. And also if the schedule sticks, I think the way is that the next one probably will be longer.

Welcome. Just really quickly, I I was able to attend the Climate Summit, at least part of it. That was last week put on by One St. Louis. And a lot of the things talked about, you know, the importance of green landscaping and a lot of things that our great staff has pulled together to have Clayton kind of leading in that and how solar increasingly is taking over and EV chargers and vehicles, at least worldwide, overtaking gas, whether we catch up or not and get our utilities grids in order um is a challenge before us but it was it was a really good summit

ellen

welcome blair

well thank you everyone and thanks to our staff especially for guiding us through with uh quality statements and uh hopefully uh lessening our concern so we appreciate it Anything further, Ryan? Nothing further. Anna? Stephanie? Not much for you tonight. Good, made it easy. Okay, we'll see everyone on the 17th and we're adjourned.