September 15, 2025 — Meeting Transcript

Steve Lichtenfeld.

Alan DeFate.

Here

is abuse.

Yeah,

you're

here.

Chris Brennan here. David Gipson here.

Chris Brennan here. David Gibson here.

move to approve as submitted second?

Subject property is located on the east side of Merrimack between Daytona and Watkins. Property is zoned R2 and is in the Davis Place subdivision. Property is developed with a two-story single-family house. The applicant is seeking to construct a two-story addition on the south side of the house. The addition would be 35 square feet and would house an elevator. The exterior of the addition would comprise of vinyl and would result in the south side facade comprising 45% vinyl, 45% brick, and 10% concrete. Vinyl is not an administratively approvable material and requires approval by the Architectural Review Board. Additionally, the Architectural Review Guidelines require primary materials such as brick or stone to comprise 75% of a facade. The applicant is seeking approval for the use of vinyl and for the greater use of secondary materials on the south side facade. Additions are common in Davis Place, and there are some examples of vinyl facades nearby. The proposed addition is largely screened from the street by the existing addition and is not likely to alter the character of the area. Staff wrap the opinion that the increased use of the secondary material and the use of vinyl will have a minimal visual impact. Staff recommend approval is submitted.

Sure. My name is Max Bemberg. I'm the architect for this project at 818 South Merrimack. And as Ryan said, I think he covered most of it pretty well, but we are doing a new exterior elevator for the clients on this property who are wanting to age in place in their home. And... After looking at other options of where the elevator could go, this seemed to be the most straightforward and cost-effective location for their elevator. And as Ryan also mentioned, the existing addition that is on that south property line there by the driveway, that is also a concrete stem wall foundation and then a vinyl siding for the two levels above. And so we're just trying to tie that in and try to tie in the character of that addition as well. matching the slope of the roof line, and also matching the color and scale of that material. So we're trying to make that as if it was kind of built around the same time as that previous addition. And again, as Ryan mentioned, from Merrimack, it will be partially visible when approached from the, I believe that's the south, but will be mostly hidden from the main structure and that existing addition. OK.

I think it improves the mass of the existing addition. It makes it more interesting and less like an appendage stuck on. So while it doesn't comply with the materials, I think it's it looks good.

I have no problems with what you're proposing. So

jim do you have did you bring any material samples of the siding or the roofing or anything that's going to go to show how it matches with the current

i didn't um not for this project for the subsequent project that we'll talk about later i did but for this project it'll just be a standard yeah vinyl siding to kind of match the white it's a pretty standard white color and the asphalt shingle roofing will also match the existing so i didn't sorry i didn't bring any of those samples with me

okay because i did have some concerns as far as the style of everything and i see kind of this gable rises above the current gable of the edition. So you'll be able to see, although most of this will be blocked by the current edition, you will be able to see kind of both these vinyl sidings next to each other. So I'm kind of worried about where one comes into the other. Sorry, did you mean the

roofing or the siding itself?

The siding itself. I mean, you can see from this picture up here, you see that that new gable rises above the current gable. So it's not as if it's completely hidden. Um, so I personally would like some sort of visual representation as the new siding with the old siding and what that will look like. Um, I also know one of the things called out in the packet, as far as for submittal to this board is, um, color rendering of the front elevation, and we get a side view, but I personally was kind of looking for how this edition would look for the front. Once again, I think the majority of it will be blocked, but as you can see, this gable goes above, and I personally would like to see from the front kind of how these three gables... interact with each other and what that does to the forum overall from the street. Um, I, I also just had concerns just since vinyl is not a material that's allowed by the city. I understand that vinyl was, is already on the house, but adding more vinyl, uh, on top of that to go above what goes on any one facade. And then also just, um, from an optics perspective of, I mean, I very much understand and appreciate aging in place and would like people to be able to stay in their house, but an elevator I think would still be largely considered a luxury item and using kind of a suboptimal material to be able to put a luxury item in a house doesn't also 100% sit quite right. So those are my main concerns that I just feel like visually I don't, have what I need to make a decision because not everything was submitted. Okay.

Thank you. First off, thank you for the warm welcome, all of you, and thank you for the coffee earlier and discussing and getting me up to speed on this. I am fine with this and don't have much to add other than I think this was a missed opportunity in a way by your firm and by you to direct the client towards something that was a little bit more visually appealing. Um, vinyl siding is directly off the shelf solution. And, uh, even on your website, you state that your design's always on your mind and you're trying to get away from off the shelf solutions. And I can't think of anything that's more on the shelf than, uh, vinyl siding. That being said, um, it is a 35 foot square foot addition that you're talking about. And, uh I can see that it would be cost prohibitive perhaps to consider. I am wondering if you considered other alternatives like hardy plank or fiberboard. But I have no problem with this going forward.

Oh, we did look at other materials. But again, as you mentioned, it is... just in the conversations with the clients, it was because of the cost of the elevator is pretty significant, trying to mitigate that with keeping in line with the materials that are there. And also if they were to replace this with hardy or another kind of more long lasting material, then they might want to then to kind of tie that into the rest of the house, it would kind of make sense to start to want to replace the siding of the existing vinyl siding so that it all has the same lifespan. So you're not replacing things at different times and mobilizing that crew at least just once. And then the ripple effects of that became Also kind of cost prohibitive. So that's why we kind of ended up lasting with this final decision, just because it is kind of in keeping with the materials there. I don't know what will happen in the future if they whenever they do need to reside these volumes, if they would at that point choose to do a different material. But that was kind of the thought process at this point, just mostly because the elevator itself, there's quite a bit of an upfront cost in getting that built. So that's where we are.

I just have a question. What is the lifespan of vinyl compared to Hardy or anything else?

Um... I should know this off head, but I want to say that vinyl has closer to a 20 to 30 year lifespan. And then I want to say hardy probably depends on the exposure and everything, but hardy is 30 to 40, maybe 30 to 50, depending on the exposure and how well it's maintained.

Then when it starts to wear, it's simply replaced with more vinyl. Is that right? Yes.

I move to approve as submitted. Excuse me. With the addition of the requirement that you present the vinyl that you plan on using to the staff for approval. Second.

2832

Subject property is located on the east side of Winokur, south of the street's intersection with Windler Drive. Property is zoned R2, is in the Clayshare Urban Design District. The property is developed with a one-story single family house. The applicant is seeking to construct a residential addition and accessory structure. So just focusing on the site plan review. New HVAC units would be proposed in the north side yard and screened with wood fencing. Trash storage would remain unchanged. Impervious and canopy coverage are compliant with the site requirements. The existing stormwater runoff per MST 15-year 20-minute storm calculations is 0.881 cubic feet per second, or CFS. The proposed runoff is 0.975, which represents a 0.94 CFS increase. The runoff is divided between the front and rear yards. A drywall is proposed in the rear yard that would likely accommodate the rear yard runoff increase. The proposal does not account for the 0.002 CFS increase in the front yard, which is equivalent to 18 gallons in a 15-year, 20-minute storm event. Staff are of the opinion that the proposal will meet the requirements for site plan review when the front yard runoff shows no increase. Staff reckon approval with the following conditions. One. that the plan shall be revised to eliminate the increase in stormwater runoff in the front yard. Two, that the applicant shall provide a percolation test report conducted by a qualified geotechnical engineer. The report must assess the performance of the proposed drywall based on the anticipated impact of a 15-year, 20-minute storm event. And should the results indicate that the proposed drywall is insufficient to accommodate the stormwater runoff generated by this event, that the applicant should be required to upsize the drywall accordingly to ensure adequate performance and compliance with the applicable stormwater management standards. And three, to ensure the future maintenance and operation of the drywall, the applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system and shall provide proof of the recording prior to issuance of a building permit.

Comments? So this first portion is just for the site plan review, correct? Yes. Okay. I don't believe I have any other comments to add think Ryan mostly covered it, but we are doing this project is for just as a quick. Introduction to the project we are doing a single story edition and a detached workshop the owner is here with us tonight Mitchell pollock who's yeah lives at the home with his wife Kelly. And as Ryan mentioned, we are through working with our civil engineer Mike Boucher who's not here this evening but working with Mike we designed the flow well system for the dry flow well in the rear yard and have the comments about their front yard that we can You know address those as we move the project forward. But big picture with the site plan design of the project we're trying to save as many trees on the site as possible, I believe we're only. Through the course of this construction needing to remove two smaller trees but trying to do as much as we can to keep those existing trees on on the site for both you know they're you know beautiful trees and mentioned Kelly have a beautiful. Rear yards are trying to, you know, while we're adding these structures preserve that the filtering that those trees provide as well as obviously the benefits of beautiful mature trees on site so The project itself, you know the addition it's a single story houses Ryan mentioned and adding this addition to the side yard there's a portion that's exposed i'm sure we'll get into that in the next era be portion of the review. But those trees and the landscaping that's existing trying to utilize those as screening and filtering in terms of visibility from the street. And there is a side gate that Ryan mentioned. There's a fence that's going to be blocking the mechanical equipment, the condensers that will be relocated. Those condensers are currently located where the new addition is going to be constructed. And so we're moving those condensers closer to the front of the house, but then screening those with a nice wood fence. And we have some materials with us this evening, again, more related to the ARB portion, but just giving you some background as it relates to how we've kind of designed the project with the site.

I believe the property itself is. We made sure in looking at both the survey information, really that red dashed line there shows a portion of the floodway. We made a conscious effort to stay out of that floodplain and that overlay. But yes, a portion of that does encroach onto the eastern part of the site, which is planned north there.

I've had no inquiries following sending out that agenda. Okay. Thank you.

and come back. Right, and there's some construction going on in there as well. It at least lasted a couple times I was

I do have a question about the rain garden. It's mentioned, but it's not shown.

We were originally looking at creating a rain garden along the side yard property line, but through conversations with our civil engineer as it relates to the code for stormwater mitigation, those stormwater mitigation plans What's the right word? Utilities or techniques like a rain garden or a flow well system. Those have to be a minimum, from my understanding, a minimum of 10 feet from any structure or property line. And so the original idea of a rain garden along that side yard was kind of ruled out based on code implications.

Okay. Then what are you going to do about the rain coming off the roof? That was in lieu of a gutter.

Correct yeah so the rain will be captured from the gutter and then directed to that flow well system through an underground. drainage system so go there into the cistern it'll slowly mitigate. That way, so that we're not so the whatever rainwater is captured by those rooms will be directed towards that. underground flow well system.

Okay that's it

thanks. Susan.

Yeah, I ventured over there too. It's a great neighborhood, hard to navigate. And then I thought I got locked in behind the gate because it wasn't close enough. But yeah, I mainly wanted to make sure that the floodplain is a concern. I wanted to make sure there wasn't downhill to any neighbors or anything because drywalls are always of concern. I think that and a 15 year, 20 minutes storm event. Is there any excess capacity with this or are you matching it right to the measurements?

believe there is some excess capacity i can't remember exactly apologize the calculations but i believe it's a 50 gallon um cistern that's going to be it's not a huge cistern it's enough to kind of help slow it down um but it will be you know it'll be helpful for mitigating that and slowing that water down as it does um you know leave the site

and i appreciate you're trying to keep as many trees as possible in this because that's certainly in that and i am curious to find out more about why the rain garden restrictions because those no matter what size anything that you're doing in that regard with suing to enhance a property um

i want to say and i again i'm not a civil engineer but i want to say that um yeah it would be nice to have a rain garden along that side yard there um but i believe it's mostly just to mitigate if there is a buildup of water there is a major rain event that that doesn't cause water either to come into the structure or into the neighbor's property so trying to get it away from any structures or property lines i'm guessing is just to resolve any potential problems there

okay and they then the um the other question i had was on the lighting i'm hoping it says that the lighting is um you're preventing spillover and they'll be shielded is it going to be down facing lighting for the night skies the dark skies standards that we now have

Yeah, we haven't gotten into specifics of lighting, but no, I don't believe we're going to have any lanterns or anything that would be doing any uplighting on the project. Okay. Thank you. Thanks.

Jim? I don't have any additional comments or concerns for site plan.

Assuming that the rain garden was not in the initial runoff calculations, I have no other concerns.

I move to approve as submitted with the staff recommendations numbers one, two, and three. Second.

The applicant is proposing an addition and accessory structure. Additions are common, and accessory structures are limited nearby. The applicant is proposing the use of only hardy siding for these structures, which does not comply with the requirements of the Clayshire Urban Design District. The applicant is seeking approval via alternative compliance. Although in the Urban Design District, the Tanglewood subdivision is distinct and disconnected from the rest of the Urban Design District. Siding and multi-material facades are common and staff have concluded the following. The Tanglewood has a unique character elements that are not reflected in the Clayshire Urban Design District. That the introduction of siding will have some visual impact but is in character with homes nearby. And that the introduction of a siding only accessory structure will have a character impact but it has design that is cohesive with the existing homes materials. Staff are of the opinion that the applicant has met the criteria for alternative compliance and recommend approval is submitted.

Okay. Thank you, Ryan. So as it relates to materials, I know in this district there are requirements for a certain proportion of a masonry material. And in this project we're looking to use materials, as Ryan mentioned, that are harmonious and kind of blending with the character of the existing house. Also, that is a side and rear yard addition, trying to, again, keep costs somewhat in check and brick being a very nice material but also very costly material and trying to do something that is, again, still a durable material and still something that is going to last a great, a great long time. As we mentioned earlier with Hardy as a, as a cladding material, it has a pretty long lifespan of I can't remember exactly, but 30 to 50 years if it's maintained properly and installed properly in the beginning. And the existing home through the photos that were shared with the board, the existing home has a blend of masonry on the front facade as well as a darker gray lap siding, which I believe is also... Hardy or is that it's hardy as well with a even darker or almost black accent trim on the on the existing house. And so we are trying to use similar materials of those accent materials, being that these are also At least the workshop itself is an accessory structure on the site so letting the brick again maintain as the primary material on them primary structure of the House. And then trying to keep the horse strong horizontal bands of the existing house and keep that. as a design motif going into the actual character of these additions which are trying to be again very low slung not trying to compete with the mass of the existing house especially the addition and we brought some samples of the materials with us tonight um in the in the packets we did call out a wood soffit originally we were talking about potentially like a marine grade plywood or a material like that but through further conversations um looking at instead it's still a wood soft but a fur soffit so a one by six clear or potentially tight knot fur and i brought some a sample of that material as well Gareth J. And then also looking again at the specifics of the hardy we're looking at using a large format lap siding on the lower portion of the. Gareth J. Of the both addition and workshop and then on the upper portion using a board and baton patterning to kind of break up the material so it's not all just one material, but trying to play with the the. kind of staggering in variation of those proportions. The roofing material on both the addition and the workshop are going to be a TPO white roof. It won't be visible from the street, just given how far set back and the height of the structures, you won't be able to really see the roofing material. And it's a low slope roof, a quarter inch per foot. So again, it'll almost appear almost close to a flat roof. And really what will be most visible will be those overhangs. We're trying to have a three foot overhang on the single story addition to the house, and that three foot overhang will kind of act as weather protection for that side entry there. And so as you're coming through the front gate, this kind of wood fence that will be there, walking down that walkway covered by this nice fir wood soffit, that'll kind of bring you into this side addition of the house. and then further around to the workshop. So that's a brief introduction to the materials.

The workshop? Yes, yes, they are sloping to the North. Towards the side yard. Yeah.

going to have black.

I think the contrast of the, you know, the dark materials kind of help the buildings try to receive a little bit and that the green of the trees and everything else can kind of be in the foreground and really at your eye and these buildings trying to, you know, being darker materials, not so stark that they're all just black and not what I'm wearing tonight, all black, but something that has a little bit of variation, like I said earlier in board and batten. So vertical kind of lines on the upper portion and then longer horizontal lines in the lower portion. Again, kind of quiet, not trying to do too many things, but just use simple durable materials, but in a way that can be, Utilitarian, durable, long-lasting, but beautiful, hopefully, in its simplicity.

That's also a good question. I believe that also is closer to the bench if you happen to know, but I want to say it's closer to. 30 or 40 years as well as long I know it's it's quite a bit longer than asphalt shingles even architectural asphalt shingles those are 20 year roughly give or take 2030 year, so I believe that a tpo roof if maintained and doesn't have any punctures or severe weathering can be. Hopefully 4030 4050 but i'll have to double check that I can let you know.

That's what you want to weigh

in?

just come up here. I am a woodworker, so I have a lot of stationary tools that fill that garage. And right now it's like Tetris moving anything around. So it's going to be partially a wood shop. Right now we have a plastic shed in the back that houses our lawnmower and all that gardening stuff. So a portion of that shop will also be a shed inside. So it is kind of large, but I've plotted out all of the layout with all of the sizes of my tools, and it works. it's just kind of i determine what i need to do if if approved but uh it's it's not worth it for me to go any smaller and still pay for something like this so it's the size that i need thank you sure

yeah it is large it's roughly two two car garages and I'm not a fan of saying, you know, it's okay to exceed the secondary material limits. But in this case, it works and I like it. I think using the siding really creates the workshop looks like a garage albeit large you don't really see the depth of it from the street And I think keeping it with siding is more characteristic of a garage. You know, the old houses, brick house, wood garage, wood frame, you know, wood siding garage. So I think it works. Yes, I obviously like black too. So I have no problems with it. my only thought having done a woodworking shop much smaller what about exhausts and things like that will that be impacting the appearance of the building

coming out uh I have Already in my current garage. I have a pretty extensive dust collection system. So it's six inch piping, which will run along the ceiling. And there are filters for it that out box into the into the inside. So it'll just be a smaller two by two closet for the filters, but nothing will nothing will be put out in the environment.

Okay. Looks good.

Isn't Yeah, I'm always impressed that people can do the woodworking and everything else. And my only comment is it's refreshing to see a light colored roofing materials from a sustainability standpoint. So thanks for including that.

Material wise, I actually don't have any problems with it. And I think it's especially given the context of the current house, I think it fits in very well. So even though it's over the limit, I actually think it's a really elegant solution here. My concern is with the renderings as far as to get context of the size of the shop versus the edition. On the plans, it looks like the edition goes up to roughly like nine foot. And at least that's the measurement that I called out. on one of the on one of the elevations and you kind of can see the shop behind it here where the shop goes up to 11 foot 2 and then on the far end it's all the way 11 foot 10 my concern is that from the street that wood shop is going to look even though it's pushed back even though it's dark it's going to look very hulking like a hulking warehouse behind that so um I guess I didn't understand why there wasn't a street elevation so we could see kind of like what this shop would look like from the front. And then also how this addition kind of ties into the main structure and what visually that would look like, the front. the renderings that we do have are kind of from an up high angle, not necessarily how you would experience it on the street. And there's no context elevation either as far as how that is going to look to either house on the left or right.

I understand. I hear your comment there. The addition west, that number six view in the very bottom right there, that would be the view from the street. But to your point, yeah, the rest of that facade is not fully rendered nor are the neighbors in context there. But as you mentioned, the The the outline of the shop they're seeing kind of the line waves aren't showing up super well on the screen there but. You can see the mass of the workshop kind of in the distance there, but again along that. side yard there are existing trees both on the property on 832 vinegar vinegar as well as the neighboring property that will help to kind of help screen those screen the workshop itself from the street. And there was another rendering that was towards the end of the packet. I wanna say it was, actually this is the very last image, this image 14, kind of showing that view when looking from the, again, it's a little bit more zoomed in, but if it were zoomed out, that's the approach from the street. But I understand, I can provide those images if that would be helpful to kind of show with the context and with the foliage and the trees that are there. how the workshop would appear but through um internal studies of that kind of uh looking at that um it will be pretty well screened from the street um yeah but i'd be happy to provide additional yeah

i i don't it's not a deal breaker for me i just say i i would have appreciated a little more additional context just when you're because i think with with structures like this sometimes uh I know from past experiences where, you know, you're kind of just looking at plans and you're like, okay, and then it goes up. And then the neighbors kind of freak out a little bit and they're like, oh, like, you know, who approved this and why and stuff like that. And, you know, sometimes after the fact, it comes across as a little larger than people were expecting. So just I'd say in the future, if you could provide more of a frontal context for what's going on to give everyone a bit more of an idea, I think it would be helpful.

I kind of think you knocked it out of the park on this. I really like this and this might be my contemporary bent, but in essence, I mean, you've got a box that you've done, but you've done something really cool with it. And it's, you know, quite often an outbuilding or an accessory building kind of looks like it's sneaking into the picture, like a unwanted son-in-law or something. And in this case, I think it fits in really nicely. I love the choice of the hardy blank and, the soffits that you're choosing, all of it really just shows a good design aesthetic to it. I'm personally jealous that you're getting a workshop, the one that I kind of would like to have in my house, but I'll remember your name. The only caveat I would have, and it's definitely not anything that's disproving, with that rubberized roof, I would consider that in years forward, since it's below treeline, I think you're going to get a lot of, depending on the type of trees, a lot of things dropping down on there. So I think the estimate for the age of the roof might be shortened somewhat and then just plan on getting out there a couple times a year and kind of sweeping that off, blowing it off or anything like that. And then make sure you hang a nice winter coat by your back door because going out there in January from there is just a short distance. But it's really nicely done now. Thank you.

David? It's a great project. I don't have any concerns.

you.

I move that we approve as submitted. Second.

Well, good luck with it. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, everyone.

See if they're online, if you have any questions.

Hello.

Okay.

This is a request from Concordia Seminary to extend the approval for one year on the architecture review board and the site plan review. At their meeting last week, the Board of Aldermen approved this extension request as you saw in the letter that Concordia provided. This is due to the timeline lapse after the WashU overlay for part of Concordia's campus did not go through. They contemplated other decisions whether or not to move forward, ultimately decided to move forward with their project as they have planned it. But because of that little delay, they need some more time to actually start construction. So the request today is just to extend the approval deadline, not to actually change anything about the project.

You would vote twice. Twice.

No problem. Susan?

Sounds great. I would love an update if there's anything that you want to share with us on the properties.

On the western parcel, there's still... laying out potential options for that. I do not know. I personally do not know of any movement forward on the Western parcel. I do know though, that their internal board at Concordia, the Board of Regents did decide to move forward with the new construction component so that we can get the people in those Western properties moved onto campus. into the new housing so that eventually those houses can be fully vacated demolished and the site can be prepared for its future potential use

thank you

I move to approve the one-year time extension to the site plan with the staff's recommendation that all previous conditions approved by the plan commission on October 7th, 2024 remain in effect.

second

i move to approve a one-year time extension to the architectural review with the staff recommendation that all previous conditions approved by the architectural review board on october 7 2024 remain in effect

second

First, welcome, Chris. We're happy to have you here. Second, last Wednesday, got to go to the Community Engagement Forum for Clayton Schools as far as possible improvements for their new buildings. I was happy to see Susan and Ana and several members of our Parks Department Very interesting process to kind of see how that's coming along. I was very impressed with the architects, even though everything is kind of rough and fuzzy at this point. I really appreciate the direction everything's going. Susan?

I don't have anything. Thanks.

Nothing except welcome, Chris.

meeting.

Nothing else?

Anna? Nope. Hard at work at some tech summits, so hopefully those will be ready to go here shortly. And Ryan's attending the local Missouri APA conference, but he made a guest appearance here tonight, even though he's at a conference. So hopefully we're also going to hear some good stuff from that when he gets back next week.