August 18, 2025 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening and welcome to the Planned Commission ARB for August 18th. If you have any electronic devices, please turn them off at this point. Ryan?

Steve Lichtenfeld? Here. Susan Buse?

Here.

Helen DiFate?

Helen DeFayette?

Here.

Kami Waldman?

Amy Waldman?

Here.

Jim Arsenault? Here. David Gipson?

Jim Arsenault? Here. David Gibson?

Here. We have minutes from the previous meeting on July 21st. Are there any changes? Seeing none, do we have a motion?

I move that we approve the minutes.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Okay. We'll move on to new business. 7447 Forsyth is the applicant here. the phone okay ryan will begin with you

subject property is located on the north side of forsyth boulevard between jackson avenue and forest park parkway property has a zoning designation of c2 and is located in the foresight station tod the property is developed with a mixed-use commercial structure the applicant is a ground floor tenant berry box The applicant is seeking approval for a combination of window coverings and signage, which would cover 26.2% of the window area. The proposal covers less window area than previous tenants and is focused at the top and bottom of the windows, leaving them in sections open. Staff are of the opinion that the proposal would have a minimal visual impact. The proposal includes window signage, which exceeds the limits normally permitted. The applicant is requesting approval via section 425.110 modifications. The tenant space features a recessed window, which limits the use of sign types beyond window signage. Staff are of the opinion that there are practical difficulties regarding the location of permitted signs and that the use of window signage is a logical substitute. The quantity of signage proposed is less than the total amount that would be permitted on the front facade otherwise. Staff are of opinion that the proposal meets the intent of the sign regulations and staff recommend approval as submitted.

Okay, thank you. Mr. Cole, do you have anything to add?

No, I don't. I just appreciate the consideration here tonight.

Okay. Has this already been installed?

No, it is not. I was seeking approval before we had Landmark Sign come out and install it for us.

Good. We appreciate that.

Yep.

Okay. I... When I looked at that area, I certainly agree with the staff report and I saw no problem with it. The way it's set back, I think the larger letters work very well. So I have no problem. Susan?

I agree with that. I think that it fits very well in that area. So that's good.

Helen?

I like it. I think that's a dark corner there. And what has been there looked like it was maybe not open had kind of a dead look. This looks great. So yeah, I think I would approve it.

Amy

I agree with Helen. I think it looks really nice. And actually, I had a little note just to ask you about the lighting under there. Just curious about that.

Sure. Yeah, WashU does have their can lights. They're kind of recessed in that overhang. There is basically lighting that shines down underneath that overhang.

Okay, great. So then it'll be visual. Okay, yeah, I think it looks great.

Okay.

Jim? I echo the comments before me. I think it's a difficult spot for signage And I think this is a really successful solution.

David, that's great. Well, we have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion to that?

I move that we follow the staff recommendation and give approval for the window coverings and window signage as submitted.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cole. Perfect,

thank

you. We'll move on to items two and three, 8121 Maryland Avenue. Okay, we'll start with the staff report.

Starting with a conditional use permit. The applicant is seeking a conditional use permit to allow for the operation of a copy shop at the project address. The subject property is located on the north side of Maryland between North Brentwood and North Forsyth. The property has a zoning designation of C1 and is located in the Maryland Gateway Overlay. The site is currently developed with a one-story commercial building. The proposed hours of operation are 6 a.m. to 8 p.m., seven days a week. The restaurant measures 1,200 square feet and would include 45 indoor seats. Outdoor dining is proposed and will require separate permitting. The outdoor dining space would measure 120 square feet and include eight seats. Off-street parking is not required for restaurants located in the Central Business District, measuring less than 3,000 square feet. Deliveries would be made outside of operating hours via the rear alley. The coffee shop will use the existing recycling and garbage pickup services. Staff are of the opinion that proposal meets the requirements contained in the regulations governing conditional uses. The coffee shop is compatible in size and use to buildings in the surrounding area. PROPOSED HOURS OF OPERATION AND METHODS OF DELIVERIES ARE CONSISTENT WITH OTHER BUSINESSES IN THE AREA. BASED ON THE INFORMATION REGARDING THE OPERATION OF THE USE AS PROVIDED BY THE APPLICANT, STAFF ARE OF THE OPINION THAT THE BUSINESS IS COMPATIBLE WITH THE SURROUNDING USES. STAFF RECOMMEND THAT THE PLANNED COMMISSION RECOMMENDS APPROVAL OF THE CP2 THE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION SUBMITTED.

OKAY. THANK YOU, RYAN. THIS IS FOR THE CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD?

plus for the whole community to bring this kind of new products in our area. Why is it different? Because we bring the product since Colombia, that is the second country with more production and quality in coffee. And you have in less than 15 days the product very fresh with aromas and flavors. Exactly like a farm to your cup. It's the only difference. And the new structure for the outdoor building.

Will you grind your own coffee? Grind in the store?

Yeah. Yes, we have our grinders. It's very specific only for coffee, tea and bakery goods.

Well, we're excited to see a new coffee house come in. And your description is very pleasant to hear. I do have a question. In the write-up, it says your deliveries will be made outside of the operating hours. So that would be before 6 a.m. and after 8 p.m.?

mean the deliveries is more when i receive from the suppliers and the products right because in this moment i don't have any uh any offer for dash store or or dash yeah sorry my son for door dash or uber eats is only the people enter and request the

I have a question for staff. When they indicate hours of operations 6 to 8, do we always hold that deliveries would be before the 6 a.m.?

No. They can happen during the regular business hours as well. We just ask to get an idea of how they intend to operate so that we know what the impacts might be.

Good. Well, they also have an alley behind them. That's correct. Which really makes it much easier. So as far as the conditional use permit goes, I'm totally in favor of it. Susan?

I agree with that. I can't wait to come and try out your business. Thank you.

Helen?

I agree.

Amy?

Yeah, very excited to have you guys here.

Jim? No issues. David? No concerns. It's great. Here again, we have a staff recommendation to approve the conditional use permit and send it on to the Board of Aldermen.

I move that we adopt the staff recommendation and approve the conditional use permanent to the Board of aldermen as submitted.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. We'll move on to the architectural review now. Ryan?

The applicant is proposing to construct a covered pergola over the tenant patio space. The pergola will be supported by two steel posts and a steel beam. Wood rafters will reside over the beam and perpendicular to the facade. The roof will comprise of flat polycarbonate sheets. The use of a flat roof pergola differs from the nearby awnings. However, nearby awnings are not uniform. Awnings tend to vary in terms of shape, color, and extent. They are typically cloth with metal supports and sloped roof lines. The proposed pergola is a departure of this form. Staff are of the opinion that the use of the pergola will have some visual impact, but that the use of materials are complementary to the surrounding shops. Staff are of opinion that the proposal is not likely to alter the character of the area and recommend approval as submitted.

Okay, thank you. Any comments on the pergola? Well, I do have a question. Looking at the drawings, it looks like there is a slight slope to it away from the building toward the street. So it looks like the water will just drop off the edge, the rainwater?

No, it's more... A gutter? Yes. To receive the water, a minimal... But, yes, the architect... And ensure... How to put the water.

Okay, good. I think that's what we need. So we'll go on. Susan? I

think it looks tasteful. It's interesting. It looks like it's well thought out. Looks good. Thanks.

Ellen?

I have some concerns about it. I like the idea of the pergola. Why did you make it solid?

Can you start? No, I think because one part, we have two space. One that is the, that is one door and the other section is the windows. And considering we couldn't put any obstacle for the reason we decided to put very solid the pergola to avoid any issue What materials are you planning to use. and metal. And we have a big... Totally stable, the structure. In the plants you can see... The wood is only in the... What will the underside of the roof look like?

Will it be plywood roof?

Yeah,

when I sit down and look up, what will I see as the finish?

The polycarbonate totally is a...

Oh, great. Similar concept.

But you can see.

Okay, so the roof is wood or translucent.

So it's mostly the roof itself on the upper level with the trusses. Not fully covering it.

OK. So it's more like a skylight? Yeah. OK. OK. My other question is on your detail, you're attaching the columns to the slab. Can we go to the details? OK.

Probably SD4.

Yeah. Yeah, SD3 shows yeah, in that lower right-hand corner, that circle, that you're attaching to the slab or Is there a footing as shown on SD4?

Helen, that will all be reviewed by our building review department.

Those are concerns that, yeah, the building department will address for your permit. Nothing else.

Kami?

Yeah, I think it looks great. I think it complements the building. I was concerned with how far it came out because I don't think a lot of them do, but when I walked the street, I noticed that a couple others do come out that far, so I think it will fit in well.

Overall looks wise, I don't have any concerns. My only concern is that polycarbonate sheet. There's a very wide quality in that material. So not having an example here to see today is a little concerning just because it's something that can look very high end, but it's also something that can be produced in a very low end product. So my only, I would want staff to review the specific material and, before signing off 100% on it. I don't think they should necessarily have to come back to show us specifically, but I would like staff to review. it would be more like in person to see like a representation of the thickness and the trend. You said like, you know, here we've talked about it being like clear, but then also you say it's smoked. So, you know, the level to it's smoked and, you know, it's just one of these things that in a rendering, it might not necessarily come across it when you see it. There's just other situations where sometimes people, you know, something in a rendering looks fairly good and then, you know, it goes through and it gets built and then it's like, oh, maybe that's not quite the image that I had when it came through. So typically we like to see materials here when we're making those decisions. Like I said, I don't think it's necessarily something that rises to the level of saying continue it and have them come back, but I'd like staff to review the specific product to make sure it's something that they feel good with before issuing the permit.

David? It's a good improvement. I don't have any concerns.

Okay. Following up Jim's comment about having the staff take a look and approve the final polycarbonate texture and color, I think we also should find out how wide those sheets are because I believe The wood rafters are on 16 inches on center, which means you could be up to a 48-inch polycarbonate. And I'm only a little concerned because water can leak through the joints. And I think when staff looks at it, we should see is there an epoxy or something in there to keep water from leaking in directly onto the wood. We do have, were there any other questions from anyone? I assume no one online. Okay. We do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. We'd like to include the sample to the staff of the polycarbonate with the sizing, color and texture.

I move that we approve as submitted. Sample of the. Polycarbon. Polycarbon.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Okay, well, we're looking forward to you opening. When do you

think?

Oh.

We will have soft opening during the... I will invite you officially.

Well, good luck with it. We're glad to see you opening up here in Clayton. Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay. Now we can move on to old business and that's 8141 Pershing. I believe the applicant is here. We will start with the staff report first.

How's everyone doing tonight?

The subject property is located on the north side of Pershing between North Forsyth and North Brentwood. The property is owned to R2 and is in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The property is developed with a single-family home, and the applicant is seeking to construct a residential addition and detached garage. The application is submitted in conjunction with an application for architectural review, and both applications were previously presented at the June 2, 2025 meeting and were continued to allow for revisions. The following site plan revisions have occurred since the previous submission. The revised proposal has an impervious coverage measurement of 54.98%. This revision meets the impervious coverage requirement for the R2 District and Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The applicant has revised the driveway footprint to reduce the turnaround area in the rear yard and add a ribbon along the side of the building. Staff have provided an additional analysis of the proposed driveway design in the architectural review staff report. Revised drainage areas are projected to decrease or have no change. Outstanding SWPPP comments have been addressed. Staff recommended approval with the following conditions. One, that the applicant shall contribute to the City Forestry Fund compensatory with the requirements of Section 405-4110-C2. Two, to ensure the future maintenance and operation of the drywall in Ribbon Drive, the applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system in Ribbon Drive and shall submit proof of the recording prior to issuance of a building permit. In three, the applicant shall provide a percolation test report conducted by a qualified geotechnical engineer. The report must assess the performance of the proposed dry well based on an anticipated impact of a 15-year, 20-minute storm event. Should the results indicate that the proposed dry well is insufficient to accommodate the stormwater runoff generated by this event, the applicant shall be required to upsize the dry well accordingly to ensure adequate performance and compliance with the applicable stormwater management standards.

Okay, thank you. Good evening. Good evening. If you'd like to give us your name, your address, and anything you'd like to add. And this is site plan review right now.

We made the adjustments that the city requested, and we reduced it down to 54.98%. We cleaned up the drawings, and we're here looking for an approval.

Well, as far as site plan review goes, you've certainly massaged it so that it fits within all the current requirements. Correct.

Because the city believed we didn't have a lot that was... A disadvantage. Last time you told us that 50 by 120 was very common, but on Pershing Avenue, that's not true. If you look at 8144, 8140, 8136, 8132, 8128, 8124, all around us, they're all 6,272 square feet. So that's what we felt. We had a disadvantage. We were requesting a slight overage of 3%, which, you know, you declined. So we went back and we adjusted everything accordingly. We're not asking for any exception on impervious materials.

Well, it does appear that many of your neighbors have 60 foot wide lots, if I remember correctly.

They're wider. As opposed

to your 50. And that is the difference. But we do have rules and we need to stay within the rules also. We appreciate you coming back for that. I'll just take a minute to say, I think that we need to reduce our impervious coverage. from where it is right now, but that would not affect your site plan review. Susan?

Yeah, I am a little concerned that there are no trees and it's right up to the impervious amounts. Again, I think that the increased issues we have in the city and broader than that with water and with canopy are real. I don't know what, I know the city has goals around about what we want the canopy to be around the city. I don't what is the neighborhood meeting this goals around there? Do you know? I do not know off the top of my head. So I appreciate that the adjustments have been made, but again, they go right up to the limits and because it's those two things together, it does make me hesitate. My concerns, I'll listen to what everyone else has to say.

Ellen?

No concerns. You've met what we asked.

Kami?

I do echo the concerns about the trees, but you guys do not have any existing. Is that accurate?

What was the question?

You don't have any existing trees that you're tearing down or anything right now?

Sorry, I couldn't hear

you. Right now, existing trees, you don't have any?

You don't

Existing trees? I

don't know what's wrong.

Do you have any trees that you're removing to build your addition?

Do

I have any plans

to what?

Do you have any existing trees currently in your backyard that you're going to tear out? Okay, so you're not taking any away?

Yeah. Okay. And then I guess my only other concern is the location of your trash just because, I mean... the people will have to traipse across your grass to get... I guess

I could move them every Tuesday to the front. Okay, just so... I do that right now for the trash people. I move them to make it a little bit easier. We just wanted to hide it. Sure.

Yeah, there's just no path to it. That's okay.

Jim?

I had some difficulties reading some of the plans. And one of the things I couldn't figure out, at least site plan, I did have some concerns about the trash too, but I will say even at my house, they have to pull the trash through the grass to get to the yard the way my house is sited. So there is a new six inch pop-up emitter and that seems very close to the dry well. I don't know if the dry well was necessarily sized with accepting, uh, additional rainwater from that pop-up, and I wasn't quite clear on what that pop-up is connected to.

We could ask the civil engineer to make those adjustments to the drywall.

Can you clarify, Jim? Are you referring to the pop-up that's directly to the left of the well on this plan? Correct. That's the pop-up for the drywell. So if the drywall were to overflow, that's where the water would come

out of. Okay. And I couldn't quite pull that from the drawing, so I appreciate that. Yeah, that's... site plan wise, yeah, that's pretty much it. I appreciate you pulling it under that 55%. I think I echo some of the other where some of the other comments where it's like, you know, 54.98%, it's like, it's right there. And I mean, it took everything possible, but yeah, I appreciate you doing that work.

David, I don't have any questions or concerns on the site

plan. I'm sure there's no one else online. Okay, thank you. Do you agree with all three recommendations that were read by Ryan initially? Yes. Okay. Well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve with those following three conditions. Susan?

I move that we approve the revised site plan with the conditions recommended by staff.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. We'll move on to the architectural review.

Following architectural changes were provided since the previous submission, the applicant is requesting approval of alternative compliance for the greater use of siding on several facades. The applicant has modified the proposal to extend brick to the roof gable of the front facade of the garage Per the staff recommendation in the previous report, this is likely to lower the visual height by distinguishing the gable and the dormers and by reducing the appearance of the upper level. All facades which face the street meet the facade material requirements. The staffer of the opinion that proposed use of siding will not have an impact on the neighborhood character as perceived from the street. Driveways in Clayton Gardens are consistent in form and material. They often are narrow and are comprised of city standard concrete. Newer homes commonly have exposed aggregate. Ribbon drives are not common and examples are limited in Clayton. The applicant is proposing a ribbon drive behind the building line. This is likely to limit the view of the ribbon drive and would keep the front setback consistent with the surrounding area. Staff are of the opinion that the use of the ribbon drive behind the

Okay. Any further comments on architectural review?

No, so we are asking for a slight exception for the amount of material and brick that is being used in the back of the home, as you can kind of see in the pictures right here. We're slightly out of compliance in the back, but it's an improvement in the material that we currently have today. And the extension that was built in the 1970s, it's a really old, you know, white, I don't even know what it's some sort of you know, ugly white material. And we are planning and using, you know, Hardy board, James Hardy board, batten board to match the architectural, you know, characteristics of neighborhood and people what they've done around us as well. So we'd greatly appreciate if you could approve that as well. It is a wonderful material with a long lasting life and it does look beautiful.

I saw no problem with that James Hardy material going in there, which I believe agrees basically with the staff report. So I really saw no problem. And I did have a question. I think I read fiberglass windows. Are you replacing all the windows in the house? Currently,

the home, we do have Pella Impervia windows, which are fiberglass throughout the whole home. Eight of them are going to be reused. And then we plan on purchasing exact same thing, Pella Impervia, which is a fiberglass material. They are black on black. When you look at Consumer Reports recommendations, you want to use fiberglass when you have black material because of the heat expansion. So that's the same material we're going to do. So the home already has new windows. We're just going to match them. Exact same one, Pella Imperbia.

So it is a basic fiberglass material, but you're matching the existing ones.

They're already in the home, exact same ones.

Okay, we'll go on. Susan?

I don't have anything.

Helen?

I have a question about the stair on the garage, the exterior stair. Yes. Could you put that on the other side?

metal stair? We could, but we don't want to. Unfortunately, we tried looking at both ways and the backyard is so small as is. So we worked with Brian, we worked with You know, everyone in the city of Clayton and the building department, and they said as long as we put a one-hour firewall on the left-hand side, on both sides, and we use metal stairs, we could do it on the left- hand side. So that's what we wanted to do. We could technically do both sides, but we really want to keep it on the left and to maximize the space that we have given our small lot. And the building did approve that with the one-hour fire rated material, which we did put on the plans as well for that specific reason.

Okay.

Nothing

further.

Jamie?

As far as the hardy board, do you have what that material looks like? I do. Yeah. Okay, so it's pretty dark. And you're just okay, and so that the design idea is just to kind of match like your thing windows accents and things like that.

Right, thanks.

So really, very little of the James Hardy board would be seen from the street. Most of it faces north and a little on the east and a little on west, correct? Amy, anything else? Jim? All

right. In the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District, accessory structures are limited to one and a half stories. So in my understanding, upper part of a story and a half has to be less square footage than the bottom part. In this case, it's equal. So I would view that as a two-story structure. Would you see that differently?

It's a one-and-a-half-story structure because the ceiling is not going to be that tall. Given the material they're going to use to make a fire rated, it's going to be slightly smaller right there. And plus you have to do the entrance on the left-hand side. We did comply with the city's request to try to reduce the visibility of it by carrying the brick all the way in the front to the top. So that'll get it slightly smaller than if you look at, this is virtually the exact same garage that was approved and built on two streets down from us, and about six inches shorter than theirs in height.

Well, height-wise it complies. So I believe that the height requirement is 16 feet and this is 15 feet, eight inches.

And we are a little bit under.

Yeah. So height-wise is not an issue, but the top floor is the same square footage as the bottom floor. So explain to me how that qualifies for a story and a half instead of two stories. That's the definition of a story and a have versus a two story. Typically with a story and a you're building into an attic space and it's a smaller footprint than the floor below it. That's what makes a story and a half. And I believe at least the reasoning for something like that is to shrink kind of the footprint of those accessory structures to not have them visually take up so much weight. I believe even in the staff report, it says calling this a story and a what makes it a story and a half versus two stories in your mind when they're the exact same square footage on the bottom floor and the top floor.

So, I mean, take a look at it right there. If you look at that bottom left-hand picture, right? There are going to be parts of the roof. I'm six foot three. I'm not going to be able to stand completely up. So I look at it as like a story and a Half because probably a good three, four feet on each side. I'm not gonna be able to stand complete given the current structure and the roof line. I would not look at it as a two-story structure. Even though the footprint looks the same, the usable space is going to be slightly less.

OK. Yeah, I personally don't think that meets the qualifications for a story and a half. I also think if you look, the sloped part of the roof is all in the eave. So really, if these eaves were removed, you basically would have a double height structure there. I really think to be in compliance with a story and a half, that dormer needs to be shrunk. And I think if that dormer were shrunk, it would also achieve you wouldn't have as much hardy on either side and would possibly be in compliance as far as materials go. Now, as far as the alternative compliance, there needs to be an unusual circumstance to approve an alternative compliance according to the code. So what unusual circumstance are you citing here? To to approve a lot, it has to be a 75% primary material on each face so in this case that would be brick. To go under that for alternative compliance, there has to be some sort of unusual circumstance So what is the unusual circumstance that you're citing as part of that alternative compliance.

And so what we're stating is unusual circumstances, the current structure of the existing extension. It's using really ugly material and we plan on increasing and using like hardy boards. So that's our argument for it. And it does match with the windows, the fellow impervious windows and we did like this design, you know, better overall. And that was our justification for why we went with black and red combination, brick and then the hardy board.

Okay. Do you think a larger percentage of hardy board would be, what would make a larger percentage of hearty board equal or better to if the house was comprised of 75% brick on each facade? I

mean, if I could go more, I would go more hardy board. We like the way it looks. Yeah. Overall, you know we're just asking for an exception, the slight exception on the back because it's not visible to anybody. You know from the front we're not touching the front of our home no one's going to be able to see it there's so much obstruction in the back as is. You know, with all the massive homes and new homes that were built you can't even see the back. of our house from Kingsbury at all. So that's our justification. We love the way this design looks, and it is an improvement over what is existing there today. And it's a pretty nice material.

I would agree with you that it's a nice material, and I would agree with probably an improvement over the siding that's there. But alternative compliance requires that you list some sort of unusual circumstance. I personally don't believe there's an unusual circumstance here. I'm open to such an argument. I really wish you could have an architect or a builder or the people who helped you with here, kind of here to kind of help make that argument. But we don't, but I just don't see how this clears the bar of alternative compliance. I don't see how the structure is a story and a half. I just think it needs to, A little more work to kind of fall within the requirements personally.

David, I don't have any questions.

Can I ask one more thing? Sure. What is the roof color? What are you putting on the roof?

What is what? The

roof. Yeah. I saw you walk in with that.

It's an exact match to the existing roof that we have. So it's just what we have today, this is the exact same material that was.

Okay,

thank you. So different. Roof was replaced, I think, six years ago. We contacted Ferguson Roofing. They said the color match would be pretty close. There's going to be some sunlight and fade, but for the most part, it should be identical.

Do you like?

No, that's all right. I'll tell you the concern. I agree with the concern you're expressing with the amount of material. And part of that is building on the permeability and the canopy and everything else when you're putting these dark, dark colors on. It's a heat island effect as well on that property. So I was just wondering what you were doing with the colors up there as well.

The brick will match the existing brick on the

house? 95%. Really close. Not a perfect match. It's almost impossible to get a perfect match. We spoke with multiple different brick companies. Missouri Brick came out. They found this one, which is... They could find... And it is, again, not perfect, but 90% to 95% of the match. If something better comes up, we will obviously use it. But this is what we want to use because it's pretty close.

Well, it's difficult to match to a 70-year-old house. We understand that. I, too, would agree with Jim about the amount of the Hardy board on there. But I think the way it's situated, it really will not be seen by anyone else except maybe directly behind you. And also it changes the cost drastically if you have to put more brick on. So I'm okay with it and I think it should go as shown. Okay. Any other comments? Well, here again we have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion?

I move for approval as submitted.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? No. Ryan got that. Okay. Okay. When will we see the work

commence? Well, we will probably start in a few months. Now we've got to get the plans ready for construction, which they're not there yet, but they will be with the structural engineer. So thank you very much for the opportunity. We absolutely love Clayton and we are looking forward to expanding our home and living here. Well, good luck with it. Thank you.

Okay, we've come to the discussion session. And Ana, are you going to lead that or Ryan? Okay.

All right, so to clarify for the first one with the sign regulations, I would actually like to push that one off to a later date. There's a couple of questions that came up that I'd like to answer internally before I bring that back to you guys.

Do we need to vote on that?

It's just a discussion item, so it'll be back on shortly. I actually, I'll do the first couple slides here before I turn over Ryan. Okay, so this will be a refresh for David and Susan from the last board meeting, but we are excited. We've kicked off another task from implementation for our comprehensive plan, and this is looking at neighborhood standards. So we are going to give you an introduction to what we're doing when we look at neighborhood standards and how we're going to do it so that you guys are aware as this process moves forward. The exact key result that we are targeting is reviewing architectural guidelines against the character and development pattern of different neighborhoods to establish appropriate neighborhood identity standards. So underneath that are a few other key results within the comprehensive plan that either directly link to this idea of understanding our character or would be a next step of implementing regulations such as in-field development standards. Now, during the process of Clayton Morrow, the idea of protecting neighborhood character came up over and over and over again. And at the same time, we also heard a lot of sentiment like our applicant here earlier tonight that wanted the ability to present some more of their personal design preferences as they continue to improve their house, even though those design preferences might be a departure from what people think of when they look at historic character. So internally, when we approached this, we decided we actually need to start with identifying what character even means for areas. When people say protect the identity of our neighborhood, what does that even look like when you look at the neighborhood patterns? What does that look like when you just talk to people? And what are our current regulations doing when we think about character? So feedback, like I mentioned, went a lot of different ways. We heard a lot about protect our neighborhood, but we just don't know what this unique character is. We also heard a lot about character in relation to the size and density. And sometimes it was relation to material choices. Sometimes it was related to design. So we needed to take a step back before we go jumping to actually writing any sort of identity standards. First, we want to evaluate character. So how are we going to do that? Internally as staff, we first decided what is prevailing character. We're starting almost with the hypothesis that each residential neighborhood has a prevailing character. So if we start with saying they do have a prevailing character, now we need to figure out what that is. And it could be in some instances that neighborhoods share the same character. In some instances, they're really unique characters. So we wanted to evaluate a few of the criteria that we heard from residents when they use the word character. So we're looking at building form massing, we're looking at materials, height of structures, roof lines and roof designs, the overall style, looking at really general categories, the garage, where is it located? How is it constructed? The size, the overall density of the home, the square footage of that building onto a lot or the density of units per lot, depending on the residential zoning. So we're going to collect information on all of these data points internally as staff. What I really want to stress, and one of the reasons that we're presenting this to you, what we're doing first, is because we're not hiring an outside consultant. So we are not hiring somebody who specializes in writing historic preservation or reviewing architecture. We're taking it up to a higher level and using internal staff as we have our expertise with zoning codes and and how our codes are currently written, and with general urban design principles to try and do a lot of this in-house. So once we collect this data, we'll compare it back to where we stand with all of our existing regulations, guidelines, and goals, and then try and figure out what the next step forward is. So that's generally what we're trying to do is solve this question of what is or is their prevailing character in a neighborhood. And now Ryan is gonna talk through how we're gonna do that.

Right so so an item to kind of keep in the back your head is with this is what is the relationship between neighborhood character and redevelopment. The neighborhood character applies to all properties. It's going to be especially relevant as we look at new homes that are going to come along. So this map on the left is one that you may have seen before previously in discussions. I'd like you to think of this as, like, an early version of this map. It definitely needs refining. But the darker blue that you see on this map are going to be properties that are more susceptible to demolition and redevelopment. Factors that went into that are aspects of... The property values. So what's the value of the land compared to the value of the structure on top of it? How old is this structure? How large is this structure? Is there a character of development nearby? And so these are areas that might be more susceptible to a changing character over time. And then on the right here, With the green, I believe this is older structures. These are where you're gonna see the prevalence of older structures in town and then on the bottom right here, these are the neighborhood character areas that came out of the comprehensive plan. They sort of follow some neighborhood subdivision boundaries but are more aligned with where people sort of feel that they identify with their neighborhood. So a part of this is going to be collecting a lot of data. We need a lot of data to tackle these goals. We need to understand the specifics of what these neighborhoods look like and if there are any patterns, and do those patterns align with the existing zoning and existing design guidelines? Yes or no? Are we good with that or do we want something different? And so we've identified this series of data points that were discussed earlier, like the size of a home or the type of roof, something like that. And we are collecting those data points using GIS. This is a tool that we have built in-house. It's an interactive tool that we can use either on our phones or we can use it on a desktop. And it actually allows us to go in and select a property and actually see the properties If it long sorry it's been a little slow on me guys actually see these different aspects of the property, and then we can edit them. We can actually go through, and we can take a look at each property, and we can collect all those all those variables all those data points we're kind of. We are, each of our staff are taking specific areas. So I started with the Morelands, because we're trying to maintain as much consistency as possible, because it's, you know, each of us could take a look at this and might have a slight difference, but we are using a Rubik to try to stay as lined as possible. Where we have identified, okay, these are all the roof types, which one does it most match? Here's all the architectural types, which one doesn't most match? So we're trying to as much consistency as possibly. But where is let me get back to PowerPoint here. disappear. There we go. And so we're collecting all this data in a combination of in-person and in Google Street View. Thankfully, the Google Street View car came by in March of this year. So there's a lot of properties that are still relevant, but we can't do everything that way. There's a lot of private subdivisions that didn't go through and also development does happen. We've got good records of that. So we actually need to go through, we need to double check a lot of those properties that maybe there's something that we couldn't adequately view on Street View or we know that there's been recent development. So we've started looking at areas of the Morelands, Tess and Skinker Heights. And there's some early insights. A lot of the points that you see here, they're coming from the Morelands because that's the area that I've spent the most time with. Architecture does not fit into a neat box but is consistent with its surroundings. Please do not go and evaluate my architectural selections with too much scrutiny because any of these properties, they have sort of a combination of things. Like you might have a... Mediterranean-inspired building, but it's definitely not going to fit into that Mediterranean character. There's definitely a lot of Tudor inspiration in the Morelands, but it's not going to fit neatly into a box. However, there is definitely a relationship between all of these buildings in the Morelands despite their variability. Also in the Morelands front yard character and coverage setbacks All pretty consistent all the buildings they line up very, very well, a lot of the coverage is really, really consistent placement of garage is pretty consistent. The finished floor heights have very minimal variation there's obviously there's going to be some slight variation because you have changes in terrain but there's a really consistent character of. This block has buildings that are flush with the ground or this block has foundations and then kind of an oddball was that asphalt and ribbon drives were or are common. but they are presently prohibited. So I would say that like somewhere between a third and half of all the driveways I saw in the Moorlands were asphalt. And then there's not a ton of ribbon drives throughout there, but there's clearly a lot of driveways that were at one point ribbon driveways. Usually they just got two lines of concrete and you could tell maybe there was grass on either side at one point, but now it's filled in with either a different type of concrete or brick or stone or something of that nature. So the next steps in this process would be to continue that data collection. We also need to verify stuff in the field, and then we want to observe those patterns and report that data and use that data to inform other implementation of those objectives and key results from the comprehensive plan. So with that, do you guys have any questions?

Yeah, I think I may know the answer, but I'm not sure. This may not fit into architectural style, but some neighborhoods have duplexes in them, as does Davis Place. Could duplexes be built again?

Let's not. Yes, we aren't really doing that here, but we did add some protection to the duplexes. If you're maybe a little over a year ago now, I think we expanded on that nonconformity protection for them. So prior to that, there was an existing duplex if it was protected. lost in a fire or something and they would have trouble rebuilding, or they couldn't really expand on the footprint of their duplex even if it met setbacks. We did make a change, so now where there's an existing duplex, if they do have room to still meet the setback and impervious coverage requirements, they could do an addition on that duplex or rebuild it. But it doesn't currently alter the zoning requirements to allow new duplexes to be built in the R2 district.

Then going back to your description of styles, it seems like most of our neighborhoods are somewhat eclectic in their mixture of styles. And from what I hear is we'd like to maintain that. Is

that

correct?

This process is more about observation of patterns at the current time rather than specific goals of what the outcome would be for new development.

Okay, let's see what else there is. Susan?

Again, we heard this at the board and there was a lot of, I think people are appreciative that our staff is handling it, familiar with our neighborhoods and looking with that flexibility, I guess, on trying to find the patterns that go in the different neighborhoods because it certainly was a theme through our comprehensive planning. So it's a big undertaking and it seems it's in good hands and thank you.

Ellen.

sounds interesting. You know, looking and trying to categorize. I think it's great. You know, then what I see is it gives us a better understanding when we talk about context. We've got something that has been researched and not just our own, you know, walking through a neighborhood. I'm all for it. And it is, it'll be a lot of work. Greatly appreciated.

Yes,

that is quite the undertaking. I just had a couple quick questions. So like, for example, like some of the neighborhoods that you have, what do you do in circumstances where it's R1 and R2 combined from a pattern and side setbacks and things like that when you're looking for that? How does that kind of

work? So the outcome of the data collection process will be... a really, really, really big spreadsheet. So we can isolate those variables if we need to. So if we want to take a look at, okay, what are the patterns in just R2 or what are the patterns and just this neighborhood, regardless of what the zoning may be, Or we can just take a look at this neighborhood and we can just take look at this one type of zoning. So we can dive into all of those kinds of questions once we have all the data collected. That'll be a pretty easy process.

Okay, yeah, because then I think about that Bemiston project where it was block by block and it wasn't neighborhood. And it was like, this block has one type of characteristic and this one, and we made decisions based on that block. So you're saying with this situation, you can still do that?

Yeah, and I think it's going to be really easy to see the patterns once this is completed because something we can do is we can visualize things in heat maps. So you might see a map that's okay, what's the cluster of contemporary or modern architecture? And then an area might be highlighted and we can get as far out or as specific as we want to get in that circumstance.

So just like if I'm like an architect or developer and I'm like, okay, I want to build on Bemiston. Will I be, you know, and you say in this neighborhood these are the characteristics. And then I go like uber contemporary. And on that block that doesn't fit, does that like cause issue? If, you know, like I am meeting, you know, the guidelines of this neighborhood, just not that block. Are we going to be able to say like for specific blocks we need to have these type of guidelines if that's like what someone's

working on? I think that's a question that's beyond the scope of what we're doing right now. However, the data that we're collecting will be able to inform whatever folks want to do next. So this goes back to that question of right now we're collecting the data. Does that align with the current zoning regulations? Does that align with any design guidelines? Say something does align, okay, do we like that it aligns or do we not like that it align? So that's a question whenever, you know, maybe in the future, depending on what folks want to do with this data and architects could take a look at this data or you as the Planning Commission Architecture Review Board could take a look this data. It could inform the future development process. We're just not to those questions right now because it's just a data collection process at the moment.

And my other quick one was just another one where we approved that multi-tenant in Demand and like it was an outlier in the height, but the idea was like eventually the other like buildings would be torn down and probably meet that, the newer height. Is that being taken or you're just clocking like what's existing only?

We're just taking a look at what the existing buildings are if there's a lot that. You know something has been demolished, but we know something is going to go there from the recent approvals, we can fill in that data. But if a building hasn't been demolished if we aren't for certain that something's going to go there, then that data is probably going to be collected as what's the existing conditions.

Yeah, and I'll stress one thing that Ryan was saying earlier too. This is the data collection point because when we read that objective of writing neighborhood-specific standards, one of the things that we want to get away from is having... an unnecessary block by block analysis because that that increases kind of the review process creates a more burdensome process for staff for this board and for people trying to improve their houses so before we could even write something first we want to get an idea of what the patterns are then we'll be able to come to you guys and the board with all this data and say Are there areas where we want to write a really prescriptive code that protects certain elements because we're really trying to protect and enhance those elements within an area? Or are there other areas that we can just modify our general architectural standards to do a better job of and apply it that way? So we need to look back through what our codes are to establish what our goals are across the community, and then we'll write it. And then there's alongside, which is going to build off of this first data collection, is that idea of some of our kind of historic development patterns and their relationship to our regulations. So the garage setbacks for detached garages, we have neighborhood patterns where none of the neighborhood meets that. Everybody has a garage that's right on the alley, not five feet back or the width of lots. Like he was talking about a 50-foot wide versus a 60-foot wide or the height and so on and so forth. So that will be the next

step. And then like as far as like actual neighborhoods, whether it's like Clabberrack or Davis, will those – Within their trustee and all those guidelines, is this superseded that or is it just to help with this?

It's completely separate. We can only enforce and maintain the regulations that are adopted by the city. Now, if Davis Place trustees got together and wanted to utilize this data for... something else and they decided to adopt additional indentures or whatever it might be for their own process and it would be up to them to be enforcing those regulations it wouldn't be through us so they it will be public data but i don't expect a lot of subdivisions will go through that process

um

i find the whole process very fascinating uh and i think it's uh I think it's going to be a very worthwhile project because I think once all that data is collected, I think insights are going to jump out that we might not necessarily see on the surface. And I think so much of when these projects come to us, what's being dictated as the character of the neighborhood is kind of the character that the developer or the homeowner are they're picking out the little bits that they want to just get their project over the finish line. So they have this larger clump of data to say like, Oh, you know, here is kind of just the high level what we're seeing across this neighborhood I think is very valuable. I think we saw even some tonight where he's saying lots of the houses around me have siding and it's like well yeah I'm sure they do in some portions but you know percentage wise and everything and just having something to something like factual and hard to like maybe gently push back on some of those things or just, you know, I think or I feel this way and having actual numbers, I think would be great. I don't know who's taking the lead on Clavarack Park, but if they'd be willing to have me, I would love to walk the field with whoever that is and just kind of witness the data collection side and just see that process to understand that process and then how that evolves with time.

You want to collect data, I'll put you to work. We got a lot of parcels.

I would wholeheartedly volunteer myself for that. David?

I don't think I have anything to add. I've seen this presentation already and seen the data before and just really impressed by what our staff can do in-house. These kind of capabilities within an actual city planning department are pretty rare. Usually you have to go outside and contract for this sort of thing, but really impressive good work.

I've never really thought of data collection as being exciting. But in this case, I see that there's some excitement to it because it really will give us some foundation to look forward. And for that, I think it's great. And I'd like to echo David and Susan and everyone else. We are incredibly blessed to have a professional staff that can do it in-house and convey it and communicate it to us clearly so we can make a decision on how to go on. So thank you very much.

Well, thank you. And yeah, follow up, Brian will put you to work.

We could each take our own respective neighborhoods. Yes.

Yeah. That's what we're trying to do because then, like I said, we're looking for high level patterns. So as long as you're the one who took all of the parcels in Davis place, it doesn't matter as much if you were slightly different in your characteristic findings than Ryan was, because the pattern will emerge within your neighborhood and then we'll have to dive in from there.

I asked one thing and the talk about the trustees and indentures and things made me think of it. I don't know if that would be helpful on what you're doing, but remember when we moved into Claverac, we were required to have a certain type of roof and all these types of things you may see. And just going through indentures, if there are any there that are clear and easy to read, something to help you identify the patterns. And you also know the origin and when they might've changed, but we certainly had some restrictions. Yeah. and what we have in our neighborhood that were written in those indentures.

Well, I was thinking too what could also be a real help in this in neighborhoods such as Claverac that are on the National Register. Esley Hamilton, who obviously is a tremendous resource in the county since retired, but has a very thorough write-up on the neighborhoods that are on the identification of style characteristics and stuff like that so uh i was even thinking when i was when i was watching online the board of alderman i was like that would be a very nice backstop to have not to say like oh this is codified and this is what we're going to call it because i understand you're working with maybe wider buckets than you know something very specific but uh you know a nice reference that's sitting there that's talking about the exact same homes and see what another professional labeled something as

Any further comments? No. Well, I have one last one. I'd like to thank Kami for her several years of service on the Planning Commission and wish you a lot of enjoyment in your new position on the Board of Aldermen.

Thank you. This has been a real honor to work with everybody and just such a great experience to be part of this board. So thank you.

Good. Well, continue your participation. Very good. Jim?

I'd like to go out on a high note of Camry, but I do have one thing, especially we, you know, earlier we were talking about window signs and I... Also listening to the Board of Alderman Tuesday, it seems like this is something that's maybe been discussed, but the High Life Smoke Shop that has opened up on Clayton has an incredibly large sign in their window. I didn't know if you could just give some sort of insight because clearly this doesn't meet our sign regulations and I have a feeling it probably doesn't meet other regulations and maybe just like a quick... what has been discussed and like what

next steps are being taken. There's already a code enforcement case pending with them. So if they fail to provide Ryan, what he needs to actually complete the sign permit review and issue a permit, then they will be sent to municipal court.

What's the timeframe on that?

I would have to look and see what our inspectors gave them on deadlines.

and we are going to have a discussion with the Board of Aldermen in September just on tobacco regulations and vaping regulations generally.

Kami, congratulations, and good luck on the Board of Alderman.

Kami, anything else? No. You're finished. Helen.

Congratulations, Kami. We will miss you, and that's it.

Susan?

Amy, I look forward to seeing more of you.

David? I don't have anything to add. Ryan? Nothing else. Anna?

Don't have anything further, but I'll follow up when I find the deadlines. I

do have a question about this seat. Does Bridget really like this?

You know what? I've not asked her, and I've not noticed her lean back. So I don't know if maybe somebody changed the setting there today. Oh, maybe. Yeah, somebody else in the chair. Not you, but there was a meeting in

here. There's usually something where, like, if you push in, it will lock, and then it can't go back. And you pull it out, and then you can recline.

There's

actually a little sign in that chair. But

yeah, I've not seen the new mayor lean back in the seat just yet. We'll have to try it.

Okay. Okay, we'll see everyone on September 2nd. Enjoy the holiday.