April 7, 2025 — Meeting Transcript

Steve Lichtenfeld?

Bridget McAndrew?

Helen DeFay?

Amy Walden?

Jim Arsenault? Here. David Gipson? Here.

Jim Arsenault? Here. David Gibson? Here.

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of March 17th, 2025.

RESTAURANT IS COMPATIBLE IN SIZE AND USE TO THE BUILDINGS IN THE SURROUNDING AREA PROPOSED HOURS OF OPERATION METHODS OF DELIVERIES ARE CONSISTENT WITH OTHER BUSINESSES IN THE AREA BASED ON THE INFORMATION REGARDING THE OPERATION OF THE RESTAURANTS AS PROVIDED BY THE APPLICANT STAFF ARE OF THE OPINION THAT THE BUSINESS IS COMPATIBLE WITH SURROUNDING USES STAFF RECOMMEND THAT THIS BOARD RECOMMENDS APPROVAL OF THE CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO BOARD OF ALDERMAN AS SUBMITTED.

yourself. Mike Randolph. We own half and half in Clayton. I have two daughters in the Clayton school system. We're a captain family. So Clayton's been really good to us in our restaurant for 13 years, and we're just excited to get back into business. I guess pizza, which I've done off and on for like 17 years. So I think I got a good location on Central. And yeah, we're just excited to grow our kind of, you know, foot in the door and exciting community.

sure

yeah so the business model is kind of fast casual so you walk up to a count or your order and then you'll immediately kind of get your salad the pizza will come out pretty quickly yeah so we will have about 40 seats in the dining room but we would ideally like to do about equal splits between in-house and to go and carry out okay

Yeah, Mike, it's great. It's just exciting to have, like Steve said, a pizza place. I think when we first moved here 15 years ago, there was that pizza place on the corner. And so, yeah, very exciting. One of the things that I know, because this will then go, if it's passed, it'll go to the Board of Aldermen. Sure. One of the things we've been pushing, not pushing, but promoting in the city is the Green Dining Alliance, which you're probably aware of. But I just know it might be something that you want to consider and

potentially think

about it. And I don't know if you know, but the city also will pay. We have a new program that will pay the fees associated with that application. So it's on the city's website, but. you're likely to get that question at the Board of Aldermen. So it'd be great because sustainability and just that program, I think is, you know, it's important. Yeah,

I'll follow up on it. Thank you.

Great. Yeah. Other than that, though, everything looks great. Thanks.

Ellen?

It looks good. When will you open?

Well, I mean, if I could answer that question. No, we're hoping to be open by June. Yeah, we're kind of on the backstretch where we're just in the finished work of construction. So get through a few kind of permanent hurdles and then hopefully full steam ahead by the start of summer.

Sounds good.

Kami?

Yeah, it looks great.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Tim? No issues or questions. Looking

I'll make a motion to recommend approval of Conditional Use Permit to the Board of the Alderman as submitted.

it.

Yes, I can hear you.

Restaurant is compatible in size and use to buildings in the surrounding area. Proposed hours of operation, methods of deliveries are consistent with other businesses in this area. Based on the information regarding the operation of the restaurant as provided by the applicant, staff have the opinion that the business is compatible to surrounding uses. Staff recommend that this board recommend approval of the conditional use permit to the Board of Aldermen as submitted.

name is katie trace and i represent the owner uh jen chai chin john chen with sushi ai we are going to be the general contractor for relocating the space which is currently a few blocks down on central avenue

The new location we're hoping to kind of bring more life into that corner down there with that's connecting Central and Maryland and have indoor and outdoor dining. It will be the same menu as its current location along with the other locations that they have throughout St. Louis area.

Yeah, Katie, I would just say it is also very exciting that you guys are we we go to sushi a lot. My family does. So it's great that, you know, you'll be in a bigger space that just has more light. I would also just encourage you to think about, you know, just applying and being a part of the Green Dining Alliance in Clayton. It's something that will likely come up when the conditional use permit goes to the Board of Aldermen. So I just encourage you to thinking about it.

Oh, absolutely.

There's information on Clayton's website about it. So I would just, yeah, give it some thought, maybe educate yourself and think about, you know, being a part of it or at least being able to talk about it when the CUP goes to the Board of Aldermen.

Absolutely.

Thank you. Otherwise, looks great. Ellen?

It looks good again. My only question is when are you going to open? We

are currently in permit and then if we can get our permit. Approved soon, we're hoping by the end of July. Sounds good.

Kami

looks good,

no comments.

Looks great to me. I hope it provides some forward momentum for the rest of the spots and Bemis in place. And I think it's nice to have that corner anchored to kind of kick that off.

David? No

There's going to be a mezzanine, but it's strictly for storage.

i'll make a motion to recommend approval of the cup to the board of aldermen as submitted

thank you so much

Property is located on the north side of Westmoreland, just west of Jackson Avenue. The site is zoned R2 and is developed with a single-family home. The applicant is proposing demolition of the existing structure to construct a new single-family home The height setbacks and pervious coverage as proposed are in conformance with the requirements of the R2 district. The proposal includes geothermal heating and cooling, which does not require exterior mechanical equipment. Trash will be stored within an enclosure below the rear deck. The total existing stormwater runoff, according to MSD 15-year 20-minute storm calculation, is 0.4 cubic feet per second. The proposed runoff is 0.46, which represents a 0.06 CFS increase. Roof runoff in the French drain would connect to a drywall with a pop-up meter located in the front yard. Public Works noted in their review that a percolation test results should be provided at the drywall location to ensure proper soils conditions are present. Staff are of the opinion that the stormwater plan is acceptable pending the soils percolation test. Existing canopy coverage measures 4,816 square feet with all proposed to be removed. The plan proposes adding 4,250 square feet canopy coverage, which is 809 square feet more than the replacement requirement. The plan also exceeds the native species requirements with 73.3% native proposed. Staff recommend approval with the following conditions. One, that the applicant shall provide a percolation test report conducted by a qualified geotechnical engineer. The report must assess the performance of the proposed drywall based on the anticipated impact of a 15-year 20-minute storm event and Should the results indicate that the proposed drywall is insufficient to accommodate the stormwater runoff generated by this event, the applicant shall be required to upsize the drywall accordingly to ensure adequate performance and compliance with applicable stormwater management standards. And then two, to ensure future maintenance and operation of the drywall, the applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system and shall submit proof of the recording prior to issuance of a building permit.

Good evening, I'm Paul Fenler with Fenler & Associates. We're the architects. I mean, I think that's all pretty self-explanatory, but we will agree to the conditions that they have asked for.

Well, I hope to read the fine print, but the, uh, existing, uh, impervious coverage is, um, approximately 32%. And the proposed we're going to be up to about 55%, um, impervious coverage. Um, And the existing runoff, if I could read this as about, well, I can't actually read this. What other information do you need? Well,

Sure. There's a drywall that's going into the back. So that's in that green area. So most of this lot drains to the back. And then there is a pop-up emitter in the front of the house, but most of the drainage here goes to the back and there's a large drywall sort of in the center of the back of the, in the backyard and all the downspouts and the drainage will go back to that point.

Yes, exactly. Yes. And there is a retaining wall that's going all down the right side of the property. So there's nothing that'll be going onto that property. Everything will be draining towards the back.

the

side. Yes, that's correct.

No, but Paul, thank you for the explanation of the drainage. But otherwise, I don't have any other questions.

Thank you. No one.

Is the retaining wall that you mentioned, is that on the east side lower for parts of it?

It will be lower on the, for a little bit of part of it. And then it's kind of combination is we get to get down low enough to the back. to the garage that's in the back. So the majority have been lower on the west side. So visible from the west side, I should say.

And what about you're using geothermal for your heating and cooling? Have you done test borings to see if that's viable?

We have not done any test borings. Mark White Construction is the contractor. I know there's geothermal that's been done in other parts of Clayton and I think in other parts of this neighborhood. So I don't suspect that we'll have an issue over there.

Okay. But I know

they haven't done any borings at this point yet.

No, and I don't believe we require them. Ana, do we require test borings for the geothermal construction?

know. I don't think we've ever been asked that before. I don't there's been a requirement for borings.

Okay. That's it.

No questions or comments.

will.

I'll make a motion to approve the site plan review with the following conditions. First, that the applicant shall provide a percolation test report conducted by a qualified geotechnical engineer. The report must assess the performance of the proposed dry well based on the anticipated impact of a 15-year, 20-minute storm event. Should the results indicate that the proposed dry well is insufficient to accommodate the stormwater runoff generated by this event, the applicant shall be required to upsize the dry well accordingly to ensure adequate performance and compliance with applicable stormwater management standards. Two, to ensure the future maintenance and operation of the dry well. The applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system, and she'll submit proof of the recording prior to issuance of a building permit.

Aye.

again.

Westmoreland Avenue contains a variety of material styles and massings for homes. The proposed home is similar in height and massing to those directly adjacent and proposes primarily red brick, which is common to homes nearby. Staff are of the opinion that the proposal meets the architectural review guidelines and would complement the surrounding area. Staff recommend approval is submitted.

I really don't know. Do you have questions that we haven't answered?

We do not. So it's red brick. It's fiberglass shingles, gray fiberglass shingals. And then all the trim will be some kind of composite material, Fipon or Boral or party board painted white. The windows are metal-clad linen, so it's just a very, very off-white color. And then the shutters will be almost black.

Yes.

Man-made materials?

Oh yeah, yeah. So we try to get away from wood materials. I mean, that's mostly most projects are, we use as little wood materials as we can.

No, I don't have any comments. I will just say, I appreciate that the house is, it's actually a little shorter than the adjacent homes, which I think the neighbors will really appreciate.

I think so. Thank you. Ellen?

No comments other than I think it fits in well.

Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Kami?

Same. I'm very appreciative that you paid respect to the height of the other homes around you and it's not this gigantic house and with some little small ones, but you know, next to it. So I commend you on that. And I also just like some of the details, you know, on the side elevations, a lot of times we just see straight shots back. So appreciate that. Sure. Thank you.

I echo the other comments and that's some of the main things I picked up on as far as I feel like there's so many houses where we have just these towering Heights. So to see something that I feel is very well scaled and and fit in with the neighborhood very well, I think is great. My only issue here is I feel like we've been harping especially for the last couple of months, as far as like seeing materials. And while I have zero doubt that these materials would fit in and look, I really feel like we need to establish for us to go forward and to vote on projects. We need to be seeing those materials in person. At least I don't feel comfortable telling one person that they don't need to bring materials, but other people that they do.

I don't have any questions.

Sure, absolutely. Be happy to.

Yep, no problem.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted.

Thank you all very much. Have a good evening. Thank you.

recusing myself.

you. The property is located on the west side of Brighton, between Parkside and Maryland. The property is zoned R4 and is in the Topton-Brighton Urban Design District. Project scope consists of the demolition of the existing multifamily structure on site and the construction of a new multifamily condominium. The height setbacks and impervious coverage as proposed are in conformance with the requirements of the R4 District and Topton-Bighton Urban Design District HVAC units would be in the side yard on the southeast side of the structure and screened with a wooden closure. Proposal estimates to maintain total existing runoff per MSD 15-year 20-minute storm calculations. The existing and proposed conditions calculate a stormwater runoff of 0.69 cubic feet per second. Trash would be stored in a wooden closure adjacent to the garage entry. Existing canopy coverage is 7,015 square feet with 6,538 square feet to be removed. The plan proposes adding 10,750 square feet of canopy coverage, which is 7,437 square feet more than the replacement requirement. The plan also exceeds the native species requirements with 66.7% proposed. Staff are of the opinion the project meets the criteria for site plan approval and recommends approval as submitted.

Welcome back. Good evening. Got a thing here if I can just load that up. Here I thought you guys were all sophisticated and plugging into the wall and all that stuff. So top one.

I'll just get it shared on zoom real quick and then we can Oh, All right, all you.

Okay. Well, good evening, everyone. My name is Tyler Stevens from Core 10 Architecture here representing my client, Doug Cohen, who is also back here, available to answer any questions. We are talking about a project over in the Topton-Brighton neighborhood under the Topton- Brighton UDD, as you all know. This map here, aerial view, gives you an idea of where we're talking about, which is on Brighton, the second building in on the west side of the street here. This neighborhood... has seen, of course, a lot of building over the years. And I'm happy to say that this would be my seventh building in this neighborhood, which is kind of fun to be able to have 20 years worth of kind of change along the street and building it out. As we go in here and I look at the existing conditions, this is the building that is there today. And you can see some of that, whereas the building on the left, which is now, it was built in the summer of 2004. So this is just over 20 years old. It was the first one that I did in the neighborhood. The building on the right is a little bit before that. I think it's somewhere in the early 90s. But both of those are newer buildings. The building that we're talking about here is one of the original of the neighborhood. There are very few of these left. There are just a handful and... We'll see if they're developed or not. They're kind of small. This lot is one of the smaller lots, but it is the exact same size as the one just to the left here in the picture. So the building in terms of the mass and the scale is very much exactly the same as the one to the left, which is number six Brighton. You can see that's this here. The zoning code indicates the 45 foot height and three and a half stories is generally what they all are so that the top floor, that fourth floor is tucked into the roof. And here you can see a good example of that because when you have that three story height, you really don't even see the roof just from the street. That is opposed to the building to the north, or I don't know exactly. I guess this is 14 through 20 Brighton Way. This building is a two and a half story, but it sits up on a very high base. You'll notice the amount of stairs going up. So scale wise, that cornice is not too far off from the third floor. So a similar kind of mass, which is why you see those roofs. If I go back there, the peak of the roof on both of those is very close to each other. Looking down the street towards the park, towards the south, see it continuing on. And then up north, there are a number of new buildings. Actually, Doug developed the buildings at the end of the block that you can see right up there as well years ago. This indicates the site plan and gives you an idea of the amount of green versus paving and building. And at this point, Steve, I'm going to ask you want me to stop at site plan review or do all of it? PB, Jorge Boone & No we'd rather stop and only do site plan right now okay so on the site that we are sharing a driveway with the building to the north, all of the projects in this neighborhood shared driveways like this split. So we'll be coming out. That's an existing drive and apron. We're modifying the back half of it because currently as you drive in, you pull into kind of a parking court in the backyard. That parking court is pretty much right under our building here. So we'll be modifying just this back portion of the driveway grades all stay the same. There's a retaining wall currently It is on that corner. It mostly belongs to the neighboring building. We will be modifying part of it as it comes in, and it provides a nice area for us to tuck our trash enclosure in right up against the building. HVAC units are on the opposite side, as you can see in the the side that is consistent with other projects in the neighborhood keeping those on the sides between the buildings so that the back generally the backyards are where the terraces are I'm sure you all know this because it's your zoning code but just as a reminder the UDD in this neighborhood prevents balconies like open-sided balconies on the front of the building For some reason, I'm not really sure why but that's written and so that's the balconies are generally in the backs of the buildings and so the backyards are kept open those are large setback. So a lot of landscaping and trees and they all provide kind of a nice backyard back there. The setback on the front is consistent with the rest of the street. And I'll point out, too, the other interesting thing about these blocks, it's always been kind of fun, is that these streets are curved. So all of the lots have a curve on the front, and so the setback is curved. And it's always been kind of a fun challenge to find different ways to show that curve on the building. I'm not one to put a flat building on a curved street. So in this particular one, you'll see later when we get to site plan and stuff how we're doing that with some bays that stick out in front. But each one has its own little kind of kink in it to kind of go around. The landscape plan is here. It's upside down on purpose because I didn't want you to be confused about where the street is, but this just shows some of the plantings. It's very extensive as indicated in the staff report above the requirements. And then finally, with regard to the height. This is our street view. Going back again, the height requirement is 45 feet to the mean in the roof. We are below that amount. And then you can see it's just a little bit. I think the one to the left was, I think the staff report said 11 inches less than that. I'm not sure where they got that 11 inches unless it was looked up, I guess, in historic records or something, I'm not sure. Or you have the ability to measure it. Oh, we put it on there. Well, good. That's because Megan, who put these together, is so smart. But I can verify, I know that at least every building that I have done in the neighborhood has been within one foot of that max height. And that's in order to get that top floor up in the roof. That's the only way you can do it. So that concludes the site plan portion. I'll take questions. Tyler, if you could

Those are across the line. This, yeah, this plan was put together by the landscape architect. Those are across the lines. I'm not exactly sure why he's putting them in there. Other than maybe to give you some context of what's there.

I bet we could see them. Yeah, there they are there. See right along this edge. So there's some sort of a bush rather than a tree tall bush, I guess you'd say.

I do not have the civil plans in here now. They're in your packet, not part of my presentation. I

Right. I just assumed we could go off of the packet. I wasn't going to highlight it. My mistake. Sorry. We'll get to it.

I will do my best. Okay. These plans, the color codes generally show different areas of runoff coming. My goodness, without blowing this

Right. which MSD requires. It used to be that we piped all that, but MSD requires it not to be piped anymore. So the roof runoff comes onto the ground. I'd have to blow this up in order to see. It looks like right here there is a yard drain. that is collecting a lot of this in the backyard coming around. I think that's

circle. Okay, then like I said, I can't see this.

Maybe I can provide a little context. Please, help me out, Ryan. I created these color-coded things that are gone here. So to clarify, the only drainage area that is proposed to increase would be this front red drainage area, and that's proposed to drain out to the street. This purple one that you see, there is a, I believe there's a French drain that's down there that would connect to a pop-up in the front yard. That area is so small that it had a calculated runoff of zero whenever I talked to folks at Volts about it. But all of the other areas of current runoff, those are projected to decrease or let's see if any of them, the yellow one stays the same, but the rest decrease aside from the front, which drains out to the street.

there's

There's minimal change, which is why we didn't see something like a like a dry well that we see on a lot of others. This doesn't have that same type of BMP because it's not required. There's no change.

A lot of that would be due to that parking court in the backyard, which is already there solid.

Bridget? Ryan, just to clarify, so there's a pop-up in the front yard, you said, that will...

call here so if you can see where the mouse is that's where the pop-up is located

got it and so and how far that that's 10 feet off the

10 feet off the property line not quite sure maybe roughly a little over 20 feet from the street

and i don't know tyler do you know offhand if there's like similar pop-ups like at the building next door i just want to make sure there's not a lot of water coming on the sidewalk or

I actually don't think there are pop-ups like that because MSD was not so stringent back then. A lot of these requirements come from MSD now and they dictate how to handle the water.

I just want to, you know, I just want to make sure. So do we know, so that pop-up, does that come off of the, is that a roof drain? Is that where... That's coming from

that trench drain. That's just

because that's the only increase. I'm just curious where it's coming from.

That's coming from the trench drain that's at the base of that driveway. That driveway kind of goes down and is surrounded by the retaining wall a little bit and would catch any rain that's sort of coming down that driveway.

So the pop-up in the front, that's where it's... Oh, okay. But that pop-up only serves that then?

Correct. Okay.

Okay. And then, Tyler, if you can just because I walked over to the site and it is kind of unusual. So what will it look like in the backyard. You know, I don't really have a lot of training in terms of looking at the plan. So can you just kind of walk me so yeah drive it'll go. I mean, you'll park underneath.

Yes, but the driveway. So currently Just to go from what it is now to where it will be. Currently, you pull into that parking court in the back and the driveway, the garage doors on the back of the building.

Right.

So you kind of swing around and pull in. The new plan, there will be no parking court in the and the garage door will actually be on the side of the building then between the two buildings because the driveway is on the side. It's almost the exact same spot where the current driveway turns into the parking court. We will just be turning into our garage door.

I

can... I have the garage plan, if you want me to show you that. I'm kind

of curious. You know, I think there was just some concern. There were some neighbors. We got an email from some neighbors that live behind, and they're just concerned. You know, there's some really big evergreen trees. I just want to make sure that you don't have any concern about losing any of the landscaping behind. Because the trees are pretty far off the property line from where you guys are, right? there is a big

tree in the backyard um that will be coming down so it's a not an evergreen though it's a big canopy tree um so currently what they're looking at is a garage there's like a little you know detached garage right and that parking court in the backyard yes what they will be looking at is more akin to what's on the other new buildings which is just all grass and uh ton of trees, because like if you look at number six Brighton to this south. Because of the tree planting ordinance in Clayton 20 years ago, there was a slew of trees planted back there. to make up, back then it was caliper inches, not canopy. And you go back there and look at it now, and it's just a dense forest really, and then grass. So that's really what they'll be looking at. We don't have quite as many trees going in because there's so many existing trees back in here. So we're planting out this corner, you can see there, but we're not gonna fill the whole backyard with trees

Okay. I mean, but I think that's helpful for them to hear that a lot of what it will look like back there is basically what it looks like on the adjacent building.

Yeah. If they look out the back of six just to the south. It's going from asphalt or not asphalt concrete as it is now to greenery.

And then this isn't necessarily, you know, something that's, you know, related to it's not really architecture, either. But, you know, just so you guys are aware, and Doug is aware, especially if the project were to be approved, it's likely going to surpass the two and a half million dollar mark in terms of construction costs. So there will have to be a requirement for construction, like parking elsewhere so that there's not you know, it's already very tight on Brighton Way. So there'll have to be some sort of, and that you'll work that out in the building permit process, but there'll have to some sort of offsite parking for people that are working on the property. So, but I think that's all I had related to site plan.

I guess I just, my only question were for the new trees in the back that are being planted, what like size are those going to be in the future?

Roughly? That's a good question. Depends on how much water they get. There are two species that you have back there, hollies, which are those green ones, and then maples, which are the red ones. The hollies, you know, a holly tree doesn't get, you know, super tall. They're more dense and they're evergreen. So that's a likely max height. You know, I don't know this exact species, but let's just say it's in the 30 foot area and it'd be dense like an evergreen. The maples themselves get a little taller. These are close together like columnar maples. And they can get a little taller than that. Maybe, I mean, they might reach 40 feet tall. but they're not uh this is not like a giant oak tree in other words because

i know like you know again the the neighbors behind are you know concerned with privacy and stuff so is that going to create like a nice visual barrier yeah

the the density of the amount of green and that's why i'm saying pointing to that property next door right i don't even think you can see the buildings through each through it there's so many trees And there are a lot of trees, you know, the building behind it is a new building too that these neighbors are talking about. So they had planting requirements in their backyard as well. So when you double up all this, it's very dense back there. It's very shady. Yeah.

Jim? I don't have any site plan issues or questions. I think it does speak to the size of that auto court that you were able to construct such a larger building and still go down in impervious coverage. So I think it's nice.

David? No questions or comments on the site

Thank you. I'm not sure if this is a question for the site plan or the design, but it does address a comment Bridget made a minute ago about construction parking. My name is Peter Smith. We live at 23 Brighton Way, a nine-unit condominium directly across from number 10. And we've had a lot of development around that area in recent years, including the Forsythia and the Residence Inn and the Commerce Bank building. And there's been a lot of parking of construction vehicles, particularly on Parkside. And so we are concerned. I'm not speaking for the board, but I was longtime board president. Our residents are concerned about what kind of vehicles are going to be present on the street. And are they going to be subject to the same requirements as our visitors are where we have to have a sticker or a hang tag, or now maybe it's electronic, but I think it's a one or two hour limit in that zone. And the gentleman didn't answer your question or respond when you said there needs to be offsite parking. And that concerns me a little bit because we would like to know what the plan is for construction vehicles I sent some questions to Ryan he was very helpful answered three of them to our satisfaction but I don't think we've really pinned down what's going to be allowed to park on the street and for how long every day I don't want to put words in Ryan's mouth but he said I think I think your term was standard vehicles could park on the street do I have that right Ryan standard vehicles

That was my sort of informal description, just to sort of say that if construction equipment cannot park on the street, but in my just chatting with the building folks, there are examples of times whenever somebody takes their standard work truck and maybe can park it on the street. They're referring to projects much smaller than this. Then later spoke with Anna, and she informed me about the need for a parking plan.

Okay, because a standard vehicle, I understand it's not a... capitalized term, but it could be Ford F50 trucks, 10 of them lined up on Brighton Way. And as Bridget mentioned, it's very tight. When you have vehicles or SUVs or regular cars parked on both sides of the street, there's no way for two cars to pass in the middle. So somebody has to pull over and wait for the other person to go by. And that's exacerbated in if you have a lot of construction, employee, personal vehicle parking on the street for, again, not speaking for Ryan, but his guesstimate was a two-year period of demolition and build-out. So we would respectfully ask either now or at a later time to learn more about the off-site parking plan from the developer to satisfy our concerns about our residents and visitors and the service people that come to service our HVAC and plumbing electric are not going to have to park two blocks away because of this building project. We were pleased to see the building being redeveloped. I think it'll fit well in the neighborhood. So we have no concerns about that. Just what's the parking plan.

Thank you for that. Ana, if we're going to reach out to you to learn more, when should we do that?

Okay, thank you.

Well, my name is Greg Spino. I live in Shaw Place, Condominiums 15, Topton Way. So we are essentially, this is our backyard, and we are concerned with privacy. I do have some drawings or some photographs here, and I just emailed this to Ryan while I was sitting here. I don't know if you can pull it up or not, but can I pass these out to them? Unfortunately, no.

We'll share.

You look at the landscape plan, Down in the bottom right corner, those three orangey kind of things are Armstrong maples, which have a two-inch caliper, which basically is a tree trunk diameter. So I can't imagine that they are very tall. The three or whatever those are, four bushes across the back, are only going to have a maximum height of about eight feet. So they're not going to provide any privacy at all. So if you look at the photograph that I gave you, these are looking for my deck. The top photograph would be looking in that direction towards number six, Brighton Way. In our building, we have... We have four stacks of condos, two on this side and then two on the other side that have big pine trees. And when you're on the decks down there, you basically cannot see the other building. What we are going to have is the back of our building on our decks is basically glass. So about 2 thirds of the back of our condo is glass. The decks on the other new building are also going to be significantly glass. And so we will be looking across through the entire length of each other's buildings unless there is some privacy. And what's there today, what's proposed today, the middle of my deck is about where those eight-foot bushes are. And I'm on the second floor. So I will be looking right into the second floor of the new building. And they will be looking right in to my building. Same for the third floor. So what I would propose is that we continue with what's already there. We would put some pine trees in, which would have foliage 12 months a year. Right now we have the maples are beautiful trees, but during the winter they're going to be skeletons and those bushes will do nothing for the privacy. So again, I would propose that the builder spend some money, get more than two inch caliper trees, put some pines in there that are maybe six inch pines that maybe are two stories tall so that we don't look at our neighbors and they don't look at us. If I was going to buy one of these two plus million dollar units in the new building, I would be very unhappy if my neighbors were looking right down the middle of my building. So questions, comments?

not no

one, but In five years, if you put in some pines that are not two-inch caliper, they will give privacy eventually. Because as I said before, I'm in the A stack of our unit. If you look at the bottom picture, that's the view back from my deck. The new building, if you look down in kind of the lower right-hand corner, there's a little brown spot. That's a current little patio, and the new building is going to come back about halfway through that new patio. So it's going to be, I don't know, maybe you can tell me exactly, but it's going to So we're going to lose like 50 is gonna be like 15 feet closer and zero privacy, which I just don't think this board should allow that to happen, I think we should look to the future. Again, I started to say in the in my a stack where we don't have the pine trees, I have recline a site into that other building if you go down to the sea stack where the pine trees are it's like being in a forest you can't even see number six. That's really all I wanted to say. Oh, I do have another problem. Can you go to the runoff drainage? This is just a minor problem. So in that yellow area, if I'm reading it right, there are some arrows that are aimed at our direction. directly opposite that yellow area, we have a below-grade emergency exit, which we have had problems with flooding in the past. And I would request that the grading on that yellow area be changed so that the water goes the other way and not into our property. Am I right there, Ryan? Does that mean the water's heading our direction?

Correct. And this is the proposed drainage area that would not change. Well, but

again, since we've, you know, actually, we have gravel, we have level down to our elevators, and we've had water come all around the steps down to the elevators and flood the elevator shaft. And so anything we can do to keep water from going in our direction would be greatly appreciated.

Correct. Both the existing and proposed have a 0.02 cubic feet per second calculation.

It's not going to be worse, but I saw those arrows coming towards us. I got concerned. All right. Thank you.

Don, can you speak to any thoughts on increasing trees or Tyler? I mean, I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on adding a little bit more. Cause like you said, there is, it is very forested in the building next door and Tyler, you designed that. So I'm just, I mean, I don't, it seems like it provides a nice environment for everybody.

Sure. And I would, I would start by just stating what the staff report says that we are going above and beyond what's required already. In terms of the two inch caliper trees he's talking about, that's actually a pretty large tree to put in on day one. I mean, planting wise, you can only plant trees that are so large, you can't plant a giant six inch tree. Well, I wouldn't say you can't, but it's not realistic.

I think he was suggesting after five or 10 years, but do you know how tall they'll get, the ones that you're planting? That

was Kami's question, which we talked about. These are holly trees. Holly trees get to be

about 30 feet tall,

about 30 feet in the end once they're fully mature. Now, it's going to take some time to do that. It's not on day one. And that's where I point out the time period that's passed These buildings have been developed over the last 20, 30 years. So those trees that you see back there now are very mature and have grown in. That's why it's so dense. And the other thing to add, I didn't mention this before, but another kind of peculiarity to this neighborhood is that property line that we're talking about between our building and his is an easement for Ameren. There's a pretty large electric line that runs all through that. So in terms of massive trees, Ameren is going to cut them anyway. You know, it's only so large of a tree. So the approach that we're trying to do here is plant a tree that is dense, evergreen. It's not going to be that one day one. It's going to need to grow in. That's that's true. But that won't interfere with the lines. The one thing that I would offer in terms of if it would make you feel better, it seems like the maples you're not satisfied with because they're deciduous.

Thank you. So yeah, I'm offering you something here, which is we could... Well, I haven't offered it yet. You don't even know what I'm offering. What I'm offering is to trade out, get rid of the maples, and we would do all hollies. We already have six back there. If it would be better for you, we could do all hollys.

Eight

Wait, so Tyler, how tall do the hollies, so I understand, he's not expecting that the hollies are going to be 40 feet on day one. That's right. They come in at, how high are they on day one? Eight feet is

what they're called out on the plan. Okay. Because an evergreen is not by caliper inch, it's by height. And so an eight foot holly, which is eight feet tall, is a very normal size, you know, good size tree to plant on day one.

Yes, but how tall will it get eventually? I don't know how tall hollies get.

So I've said now three times 30 feet is what I'm in terms of immature that specific species of tree. I don't, I cannot speak to, but Holly trees in general reach. They're not, they're not what do you call it? Canopy trees, you know, 50, 60 feet high, 30 feet is a, is a good kind of average what we would expect.

try not to ask you to repeat it

well i'm sorry i should

i'm just trying to make sure that everybody understands

again peter smith 23 brighton way i would urge this commission to pay close attention to this matter our uh building backs up to the Forsythia and the original rendering showed this beautiful swale with trees and bushes. None of that is gonna be possible as far as I can tell. What we're looking at now is a probably, I don't know, 15 foot tall gray concrete wall with white PVC pipe projecting a couple of feet out of it. That's going to be our view out of the back of our building. So it's unfortunate, I guess it's not gonna change, but this gentleman I think has a legitimate concern because we literally will be looking into one another's resonances between the Forsythia building and our building at 23 Brighton Way. It's not good. I don't know why the developer thinks they shouldn't do something for the reasons that you cited for marketability, but if they don't, they don't. And I don't know what happened to the landscape plan from the original drawings and renderings to now, but it's incredibly ugly. And so I would encourage this commission to pay close attention to this problem or this issue. Thank you.

I'd like to say that I can't imagine that the electrical system easement that runs behind number six is any different than the electrical easement that runs between us and this new building. So I don't think there's much argument there that we could not plant some trees that are going to get big. And again, when I looked at those What are their six pushes down there when I when I when I looked at this stuff it looks to me like the maximum height. was eight feet, and please make sure that these will in fact someday be 30 feet and, if not let's try to make sure we put some things in there that stay evergreen maybe magnolias would be a good choice, but you know we don't sit us trees and we want something that's going to provide provide provide privacy for both units thanks.

Can I ask you a question real quick? The current trees that are on your property, do those all have enough coverage and privacy? The current ones like on the bottom left?

No. I mean, none of those bushes get over eight feet tall. And again, we don't have a privacy issue now because the current building doesn't have decks on the back. And almost every window in that building for as long as I've lived at 15 Topton Way, shutters are always closed on the backside of that building. But now we're going to have these decks with big glass doors and stuff. And again, it's a straight shot through both units.

I can say also just in my personal experience, so I had a new house constructed next to me and there's an entire row of green giant arborvitae that were planted. On my second story, I mean, I can still see that building. It's not like, and it does stay green all year and it does provide good shading, but there's nothing that's going to provide like basically just like a green wall where you're never going to get any visual penetration between the two buildings.

Well- We have that today with the pine trees that are down on the CD side of the building. You could go out there in November and December and January, and you cannot basically, it's so private, you cannot see somebody on the deck on the other side at number six.

My name is Anne Carol Gaspar, and I have lived at 43 Hillvale for 56 years. And so I'm a senior. In fact, I have just been reading a book about elder flora and the oldest tree in the world. It was in the United States, a bristletone pine that lived to be 5,000 years old. It was accidentally cut down, and it's a terrible, sad story. But a point I want to make is that you have here in Clayton the most wonderful arborist. His name is Andrew, and he knows more about trees, and especially in Clayton. And I just highly recommend his presence and participation in some of the decision-making. And before him, there was a wonderful gentleman who was arborist for many, many years. And they are so knowledgeable. And I frequently ask Andrew's advice. And I think... I think that would be so helpful to this committee and to all the residents of Clayton. So I just wanted to make that suggestion. Another is, I've just been making a long road trip and all along the way, my son was my chauffeur And we made stops. We had traveled several hundred miles and we made several stops at rest stops along the way that had metal roofs, all of them color blue everywhere you go in every state. And then we came home And we turned in to Hillvale Drive, to Crestwood. And I saw this house that's been under construction or restoration, reconstruction. And I said, son, that house has a blue metal roof and it looks like a rest stop. And I'm telling you this with a heartfelt grief that in our own Claverack Park, we When we moved in, we had our own board and we set up the policies to not have metal roofs. In recent years, they're popping up more and more. But this looked terrible to me. And I'm just very distressed that this is happening in Clayton. I know Clayton is a very dynamic city. And I wish I could keep up with the curve. It's my great hope that I can, but it might be too late. But I wanted you to know how distressed I am that you can't do more about the roofing situation and remain true. to the homes, the beauty of the homes. And I think metal roofs are fine for retail businesses everywhere and for rest stops. Thank you.

I would like to just say, sorry, I appreciate your comments. And I am, I do feel confident that while the trees start at eight feet tall, Holly trees will get 30 to 40 feet high. So I'm, I am, I am confident that, you know, five or 10 years down the line, the trees will be significantly taller.

I just looked up American Holly trees and it says here that the maximum height is 15 feet. I'm going

to become a battle of AI. American hollies normally grow to heights of 30 feet. I've got another one here. While some garden varieties stay on that smaller size, holly trees can grow to an impressive heights of over 50 feet. It all depends on how old they are. Another part here says they can live 300 years. I mean, in 300 years, who knows how tall that tree is going to be. They do put on... It says 12 to 24 inches per year in terms of a growth rate. So you can kind of do some math there on that.

One, I stand corrected. American holly will go 15 to 30 feet. However, English holly will go to 50 feet. Number two, all the Ameren runs there are underground. And in the five years that I've lived there, Ameren has never come and touched any of those existing pine trees that are back there.

I'll make a motion to approve the site plan as submitted.

New construction is present nearby with most structures on Topton and Brighton having been constructed in the past 30 years. The structure would primarily comprise of tan brick with stone and metal accents. Composite siding can also be found on the front and rear facades. The Topton-Brighton Urban Design District requires brick as a primary material and allows for one secondary material not to exceed 25% facade. As proposed, the materials do not meet this requirement and require approval of alternative compliance. Older structures most often two stories with brick and limited secondary materials. Newer structures are commonly taller and have stone at their foundation. Brick is common at or above the first floor with an architectural accent or material modification above the second floor. This modification above the second-floor creates alignment with older brick structures, creating material conclusion at the roof of the second floor that is consistent across structures of all ages. Third floors or higher commonly feature a roof line, different material, or different colored brick. The proposal continues this trend with a stone foundation, brick to the top of the second story, and a material change above the second story. Staff are of the opinion that the current configuration is compatible with the surrounding area and meets the criteria for alternative compliance. Staff are of opinion that the proposed structure is compatible with the area's architecture character, despite not fully meeting the material proportion requirements. Staff recommend approval is submitted.

Tyler?

Hey. seem to have control. Oh okay so um. This line drawing, I'll start here because I think it speaks a little bit to what we were just talking about there in the staff report and the horizontal lines of what's going on on the street. Because, well, this is my architectural opinion, but My opinion is because of the fact that the zoning kind of leads you towards a half story on the top where the top floor is tucked into the roof, which is how most of these buildings are done. Because of that, there's typically a change of material. at that belt line because taking a brick all the way up into a high gable like that can be problematic structurally. And so there's traditionally been this kind of change of material. And I like to use the windowsill as like this upper belt line there. It also helps to disguise a little bit of the height visually, because when you look at that, the third floor, which is the top floor that you really see before the roof takes over, gets compressed and kind of tucked in underneath the overhang and really kind of lessens its impact on the street What you see there in terms of the brick are the first two floors and then that strong belt line, which you can see right here. That is further emphasized by some brick patterning, a cap at the top stone. So that's why the change of material that's going in there. I have materials that I brought, but there's no table to put them on. So I'm not sure if you want me just to stack them there. I'll do that at the very end after we go through it. architecturally in terms of layout all the parking is in the basement as per usual I will add this is a comment back to the site plan stuff um oh the gentleman that was concerned about parking is gone oh there you are okay one thing that I will tell you yes we will submit the parking plan and all that that's required by the city But these buildings, the way they're built, there's a garage, concrete garage that goes in first. It's a podium that is a solid concrete box basically. After that, the building enters into a kind of a second phase of construction where the wood framing starts and it goes up. The actual units are built above it. On every project that I've been a part of, what happens when it turns over from concrete to wood is that the contractor starts parking in the basement. Typically that is allowed by Clayton during construction. It's a solid concrete deck there between the garage and the units. And so we've got these, these 12 parking spaces. I think it's 12 or 10, whatever the number there is, but those become available for the contractor then at that point, and they start using that garage. So it lessens the amount of time, you know, that for the duration of the project, one thing I can offer you, um, The building as it goes up, this is a typical floor plan. You can see that this is a little bit unusual in that this is a step up in terms of caliber and quality. Each floor is one unit, so there's no hallway or anything like that. People love the idea of the elevator door opening, and they walk right into their living room. So that is how this building will work. So the units repeat mostly in terms of the general layout, but you can see here bedrooms in the back living spaces up on front and then that terrace that here is a kind of an oversized outdoor room. Another thing that people really appreciate and brings a better value to these units that that is in that backyard there. The entrance is all in the corner. It's weighted off to one side. So this will be kind of an entrance lobby that has a staircase in the elevator in it. The other stairs just to back fire egress. When you go up to the top floor on the roof, similar layout. The one thing that changes is that deck switches. It's tucked into the roof on the front like a little roof deck above the belt line, which allows it to have a slightly different feel and move that to the front of the unit instead of the back. The rest, by and large, remains the same except that you see all this gray area around on the floor plan. That is area that is under roof. So the roof itself wraps the unit and really hides it. There are no windows on the front of the building there in this in terms of dormers or anything like that. The elevator does, is the one thing that will penetrate through the roof and shows that's also typical of these buildings because the elevator has to be a certain height to get up there and so typically i try to make it look like a chimney which is coming up through the roof because that way it at least has some language of existing buildings so this is the front elevation as you see kind of front on and here you can start to see what i was talking about um in terms of the curve of the street. If I go back to this view, there's a bay on each corner, the entrance and then the other is a den here. Those bays kind of come forward along the setback line and then are angled to kind of wrap and hold the street. I think it's a nice embracing kind of move. opening up the front and dividing the front into sections that make the building then appear smaller, have a bay on the right and the left, and then a portion in the middle that's flat. You can see that here in the actual rendering. So we're also playing with solid and void in this. These two bays, while they're the same in terms of massing, they reverse from one another. On the one side it's a masonry solid with a glass bay. On the other side at the entry it reverses because this is public space. So you get your glass on the corners and more solid in the middle where the door is. This is also nice because one thing in residential buildings, generally the buyers don't want lights shining up on them. You try not to uplight a residential building like this because then it shines in people's windows. But to make it inviting and lit at night, I like to always light the lobby spaces and think of it as almost like a lantern. That's inside the building. The light is coming through the glass rather than shining on it. And so by doing this to the side where you get these corner windows and this is all public space, we can have those lights on. They typically stay on all night and produce a nice warm glow there in the corner, which makes building that very inviting on that side. You can see the materials that we got a strong base here. And then brick coming up that's there's accent patterns and belt lines. stone surrounds on the windows. Then the material changes at that third floor. Again, you can see how that mitigates. It's almost like the third floor is a little bit hidden. I did an additional rendering here that's not in your packet based on the staff comments about material changes. So this allows you to see it from the side and how you can see how masonry belt line stops there. What's going up in the rest of it is a metal shingle. And I've got samples of all this I'll bring up tucked into that roof, then is that upper unit. The terrace up there that I talked about being tucked in has a rail across the front, which really just kind of completes the building, adds a little interest. And then the roof over it is actually set back far so you don't see it. There's that elevator rising up like a chimney coming through. So let me get the materials and put them up here so you can see that in context. Okay, so what you're looking at there, I'll start with the brick. The brick is kind of a medium brown color, which is in keeping with most of the newer buildings. It's interesting that the older buildings were almost all red, and the newer buildings are typically shades of brown. I guess tastes change over time. Then the base down there at the bottom... which is a, this is a panel. It's actually concrete. It's got a nice aggregate in it and ground face. It's a product that we've used a lot that makes them real nice, smooth stone-like appearance on there. And that is then paired up with the surrounds that go around the windows, which is that other little bar that you see there on the ground. Then the shingle up in the top is this large diamond pattern And the diamond pattern is, I really think is nice because it imitates the old slate diamond shaped. And where the color of the panel that you see there, the diamond is not the actual color. It's the one on the bottom. In that color. Oh, whoops, doesn't show him. which is a little bit darker, kind of a It's almost a little bit of a blue-green, dark gray, which again imitates Slate pretty nicely. The window is a wood-clad, aluminum-clad wood window, and the color of the window is the little tiny metal chip on the far left there, the gray, kind of a gunmetal gray, which goes along with that blue. So that whole palette, when you put it together, gives you the tone of the rendering that I was showing there. I think that's where I'll stop and take questions.

There's a door that leads out to a pad, basically, which is not unlike the other buildings there.

Yes.

Yes. I didn't include all the floor plans, so sorry. That might be why. But essentially, it will come out at grade. Oh, and you know what? Yeah. When you look at the back elevation, do you not see the door? Is there no door? That would be the south elevation. Yeah, I was told by Megan who put the drawings together because she told me that's like when she turned it in, she forgot to put the door on there. And so she sent me with if I can advance this.

Oh, it's on this one. It's not there. Here it is. Yeah, it's not there. It's right here. So I apologize. She did point out that that was that was left out inadvertently. But the door comes out right at that spot at grade. Well, the addition of door

right.

You know what? And this just proves me wrong because I told Megan, they're not going to ask that. They'll never notice that we left out the door. I'm so wrong.

Yeah, I mean, I also like it. I think it's really, I think it'll be very interesting to look at. As Steve mentioned, there's just so much, the building around there is so diverse. You know, I feel like there's some I hate to say contemporary, but you have some darker brick that makes it seem more traditional. But then you definitely have some contemporary looks to it with all the different material you're using, which I think if you look around the corner, even next door, I feel like the building next door has that interesting kind of entranceway. So I think each of the buildings in this neighborhood especially have interesting things that you can look at. So I think it'll be nice to see it. I do find it to be a very attractive building.

Thank

you.

Yeah, to echo that, I really like it as well. I do think it'll fit in nicely. I do think there'll be more on the contemporary side, but I think that's okay. I'm curious, just like the roof is very unique, like the shape of it, just kind of the design intent behind that. Like what was it?

Yeah, well, that would be called a gambrel roof, which is a... Some people call it a barn roof because they were used a lot in barns where it has multiple slope. It's one of the roofs that's called out in your zoning code in terms of there's hip, gable, gambrel, flat. Basically, the way it works is you have two slopes. If I go to a side up, there you go. You have two main slopes. You have a lower slope that presents to the front and the back and gets you to a ceiling height that works, and then you have a low slope at the top.

I know what it is. I'm just kind of curious why you picked it. Is it just to kind of hide the fourth floor?

It works best, yes, for the fourth floor plan in there. It's It's kind of an old technique. I don't know who developed it historically, but it's a technique to get more square footage into an attic. That was why I think it was used in barns so much because that's the hayloft and you'd want the hayloft to be as big as possible.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, it is unique. You don't see that too much around here. So I thought that was a unique choice. I do like the elevator, you know, kind of hidden as a chimney. I think that was a smart design. I do, I mean, the diamond-shaped shingles, I haven't really seen too much of that. But I do think, you know, I'm glad you did this rendering because it was a little iffy for me. But I think it presents nicely. And I like that brick detail, you know, the transition from the brick to the shingles as well.

For what it's worth, the metal shingle on the building next door that you talked about at the front door, or somebody, maybe it was Bridget, that is also a metal shingle. It's not diamond shape. It's rectangular,

but

it's the same kind of approach. So they will actually relate in that way.

Yeah, I like it. It looks good. Thank you.

Jim? For the sake of time, I won't repeat all the positive accolades, although I'm sure you would enjoy us piling on in a positive way. A lot of the positive design items that Cammie and Steve mentioned, I echo. I think it's a great candidate for alternative compliance with how you've used the materials really smartly, and I think that a belt line that you describe and going darker up above really lowers the visual height. I also just walking the street, I mean, it definitely makes a lot of sense what you're saying. You've done seven other buildings because I think it definitely has like a visual similarity with buildings on the street without it being a direct facsimile of any building on the street. So basically I think it's all very nicely done.

Thank you.

David? it looks great

it's not really architectural but since we are going to be the neighbors that have to put up with the construction is there any information on when demolition will start and how long construction will take

doug cohen douglas properties uh we are in the midst or probably maybe even done with removing the asbestos i've made application for my permit for the fence waiting for all the um incidentals and requirements for that. And then I have the fence on the site. So we'll be ready to rock and roll pretty quickly with the demolition, I would say within 30 days. And my goal is to start in construction in June, July, the latest, hopefully. And I'm projecting about a year and a half for construction.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted Second.

review. Subject property is located on the west side of South Central Avenue, roughly mid-block between the street's intersection with Davis Drive and the street's terminus with Merrimack Elementary School. The property is developed with a two-story single-family home and is zoned R2. The applicant is seeking to demolish the existing structure to construct a new single-family house. The height setback's impervious coverage as proposed are in conformance with the requirements of the R2 district. HVAC units would be located on the south side yard at the rear of the home and would be screened by landscaping. Trash is proposed to be stored within the garage. Trash in Clayton is valeted from its storage location by sanitation workers. Residents would need to remove the bins from the garage on pickup days and place them in an accessible area in the rear yard. Bins placed on the driveway in the rear yard during trash days would be screened from adjacent properties by fencing. The existing stormwater runoff in accordance with MSD 15-year 20-minute storm calculations is 0.47 cubic feet per second. The proposed runoff is 0.52, which represents a 0.05 increase. Should note in the staff report it might have been mistyped as decrease, that is an increase. The roof area will be piped to a flow well located in the front yard with a pop-up emitter. Per a recommendation by Public Works, staff are of the opinion that the size of the flow well should be informed by a soils percolation study prior to installation. Existing canopy coverage is 5,994 square feet with all proposed to be removed. The plan proposed adding 1,250 square feet of canopy coverage, which is 2,619 square feet less than the replacement requirement. For the requirements of Section 405-4110-C2A, the applicant will be required to make a contribution to the City Forestry Fund equal to 60 cents per square foot of deficiency. The fee required for this proposal is $1,571.16. The plan exceeds the native species requirement with 100% need to propose. Staff recommend approval with the following conditions. One, that the applicant shall provide a percolation test report conducted by a qualified geotechnical engineer. The report must assess the performance of the proposed drywall based on the anticipated impact of a 15-year, 20-minute storm event. Should the results indicate that the proposed well is insufficient to accommodate the stormwater runoff generated by this event, the applicant shall be required to upsize the drywall accordingly to ensure the adequate performance and compliance with the applicable stormwater management standards. Two, to ensure the future maintenance and requirements of the well, The applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the well system and shall submit proof of the recording prior to issuance of a building permit. And three, the applicant shall contribute to the City Forestry Fund compensatory with the requirements of Section 405-4110-C2A.

Hello, my name is Tony Camacho, the designer of Zed House. Do

Other than should you, would you, there's... Yeah, I would. I'd like to expand a little bit on that. What we're trying to do here is, we'll just give you a synopsis here. We're basically maintaining this similar to the same footprint that's there with the same curb cut at the driveway facing South Central. We're maintaining all the trees at the curb cut. We're trying to, the front yard, we're trying to level it off just to help on the grading because the yard is just eroded to a large degree. And the rear, you can see some of the existing contour lines, how eroded the rear is as well. So I think with the driveway needing to plane out, we just brought that plane all the way across to level it off. Any water runoff that would hit the drive would slow down We had to remove one tree and a large tree and a smaller tree, the rear, just to be able to accommodate the drive. But it was a house that, I mean, it was a tree that was never maintained. And so we replaced it with some other trees. And we're trying to dress up that there's sort of, I wouldn't call it a ravine, but that's where the water runoff meets at each rear of the house, opposing house. You know, the fence there where we didn't show replacing the fence right now, but we are going to replace it to something that reflects the home's aesthetic. But we wanted to do that with a separate permit at this stage because we thought we could use it during construction, but I hear some of it's falling down, but that's going to be replaced.

south side along that walkway and what

I don't think the wall is falling. The block wall is falling apart. But once we do the new grading, if we feel like we need to do that, we will. But have you found walking it that there's a problem?

Okay.

just the fence. And we're going to return the fence to the house and have a gate there, and that's going to conceal the condensers, AC condensers. And now we put the flow well tank at the front yard where it's nice and flat. If there was ever a need for one of the emitters to be used, it would just slowly drain off You know, not add any water runoff to the rear where all the water runoff is usually directed to.

Well, the rear sort of drops off a little bit. But where the driveway we're proposing it is, is the exact footprint of the previous house, but just a larger footprint.

That's all trapped at the flow well in the front? In the front. Okay. That's that plan to the

That's it. We wanted to keep it simple.

Right, that's

uh yeah i just had a question um you know we don't usually see um the way the is there a reason why you're just not gonna have a place to put the trash Like, you know, because usually people, it just would be nice for the homeowners to not have to pull it out on trash day. Do you

have any suggestions?

I mean, I'm not...

We're exposed. I just didn't want to... I think building an enclosure for it would be... It wouldn't look very nice.

Okay. I mean, it's just if you can figure out a way to put it somewhere. It's just usually on new homes, there's always somewhere to put the trash so that it's kind of a pain on trash day to pull it out, make sure it's out from the garage.

It's a pain to pull it out from the garage?

Well, I don't, I mean, again, it's up to the homeowners. It's just normally we see with- Do you have any

suggestions on a simple footprint?

Yeah, I mean, I wish I could say so.

Anybody have ever seen a trash enclosure? Outside, because this, you know, we kept the house tight, no detached garage, you know, so there's only so many areas. I mean, I was thinking maybe by the deck there, but we're going to be seeing outside that, you know, the family room.

Yeah, I mean, it's up to you. I'm not I'm so I'm on the plan. I'm the aldermanic representative, so I don't have any professional expertise in terms of. We'll let you know

if we if we change.

Yeah, it was just a comment. It was

really tried.

Yeah, well, that's fine. It was just a comment I had. It was unusual to say

I made an effort. And I think in the plan, I I moved the door so it could be tucked there. I think having it there, they could just open that door to the garage. Totally trash in there. You know, when people go on

vacation, you don't want to necessarily deal with it. So that's all I'm saying. And I, you know, I appreciate, I know that there are people online who are neighbor, you know, neighboring property owners. So, you know, understanding too, that there's not going to be any water runoff because kids are constantly using the path.

Oh, sure.

You know, going to school. So understanding that there will be no water moving in that direction at all because we don't want it to ice in the winter and stuff like that. So it looks like all the water, at least from the roof, is piped to that flow well in the front. And then there's not like there's a decrease in the roof or I mean in the rear. So there's not it's not like the property behind will feel any sort of increase in water. Right.

And we're going to do that PERT test to make sure we're good just in case the emitter is used

that

can't keep up with it. Right,

right.

And it's pretty flat there. So if it comes out, I think it'll just trickle.

Yeah. You just don't want the people behind to feel, you know, a lot. And then the last thing I was just kind of curious in terms of the replacement requirement for the canopy is just because there's not space to add, there's not more space to add more trees on the lot. Like, cause you've got to add, you have to, you've got to donate to our forestry fund because you're not able to. Is that

why we have to donate? Yes.

It's just

about that.

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, trees are nice. Landscape is nice. So I don't know if there's a way that you can, if there's not a way, you know, to be able to have. Can

I mention something? The homeowners are here, Sue and Dave. And Dave, what was the original plan? That's it for the landscaping was like a hundred.

Yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah.

And we thought that those trees back there would really anchor that corner.

Okay.

We have some huge trees in the front. If you ever drove by there.

Yeah. Drive by there constantly.

Yeah. They're massive.

No, I just, again, just comment because you don't have enough canopy coverage on your landscape plan, then you have to add money to the forestry fund. So, again, something potentially to think about. But those were the comments I had on that. Okay. Ellen?

No

comments. Jamie?

No comments on the site plan, but I do want to echo Bridget's comments about the trash cans. That is one of the nice benefits of living in Clayton that they come and pick it up and you don't have to worry about it. Oh,

I see. So if you

walk to the back, just get your trash out and walk to the front. But if it's in your suggestions, it would be... I'm just thinking as a new homeowner, you might want to like rethink that a little bit just because...

So, but I think we could, they would just pull it out to the end of the garage. When it's on that day.

just think it would look terrible.

Well, they're all over town. They don't look terrible all over town.

Well, maybe when we get to the floor plan, maybe we could talk about it.

we put it out. We just leave it out where they would normally pick it up if there were a trash enclosure there. It's adjacent to

you have to put a thing around it yeah yeah okay

And now you have to check your impervious coverage if you build a... That's

right.

Yeah,

that's

right. Anyway, I... Auxiliary structure?

Yeah.

It's just nice benefit of living in Clayton for that little tidbit. And then I guess you address the concern that there's no water draining onto like the cut through next to the house for the kids because that is heavily used. Yeah, there's none.

Okay, great. Thank you. That's where the flow well is. Yeah, it captures everything. But just on the trash enclosure, is that absolutely required? Well, you just said it was required. Yeah,

you. Where were we? Jim? Yeah, man, I don't want to hammer trash any more than where we are today. But this is the first new construction plan I've ever seen on this board that didn't have a trash enclosure. And it specifically says in the staff report, word for word bins placed on the driveway in the rear yard during trash days would need to be screened from adjacent properties by existing.

Oh yeah. Even if there were setting there temporarily. Yes. Yeah. Got it. Okay. So point well

taken. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to lie. I have, I have a lot of issues with, it's also just, if you look at the site plan, basically every single line we're increased, we're increasing the runoff. We're increasing the pervious coverage. There's no trash enclosure. We're eliminating so many trees that you have to pay into the forestry fund. I'm as I'm reading through and listening to your presentation and stuff, I'm looking for a win like anywhere. And like, we don't have a win kind of on any single level, which is kind of troubling.

Crash and closure is a win, as I will provide it.

questions or comments.

I'm the property behind him, so I'm happy that somebody's doing something. Before you speak, let

who you are. Scott Wolpert, 512 South Merrimack. Thank you. Please hurry. I've been looking at this decrepit mess for three and a half years. You'll have to look at my trash cans. I do not have a trash enclosure. There's a water issue back there. between my property and that property. I think everybody's aware. And please build a fence. That's why I'm here because I saw all this, we're not building a fence stuff. And literally fence between my house and yours is leaning on the power pole. You know, the singer's side is leaning over. And I think that retaining wall has been undermined by some water redirection that the prior owner did while he was gutting the house and painting colors on the outside for three years. So that's all I have to say is, I mean, ideally the perk test stuff will prevent any additional water issues because that easement that Ameren has basically in the back of mine and theirs, it's a swamp. I mean, it just is. And, you know, I mean, there's a lot of pavement. I don't know what you do about it, but if we can bury it underground or whatever, and then as an aside, the trench drain on the south side of that walk path is completely caked full of mud. It doesn't work at all anymore. I know the city put it in some years ago. I don't know if they can come out and scoop it out and make it work again, but I would appreciate it.

That's it. Thanks, Scott.

Yes. Can you hear me?

do.

Okay. Well, I wish I could be there in person, but I couldn't. So I'm doing the next best thing. Okay. I have a few questions and tell me if this is the correct place to be asking them. I know there's two different categories. My first question.

No, I got it. Okay. My first question is that in terms of the canopy coverage, the previous owner took down a lot of trees. And I'd like to understand how that works with a new owner in terms of how many trees need to be replaced or canopy coverage, because it seems like they're comparing what's there now with what's going to be, but they're significantly less there now than there was when the previous owner was first bought the property. So how does that work?

Okay. I guess I'm a little bit confused because I thought at one point, if you take down a certain number of trees, you have to put up a certain number of and either that, either I'm not understanding what you just said or something's

okay um I also wanted to understand about the HVAC and what's going to be, I heard something about landscaping was going to be, bushes were going to be covering that. Can somebody just explain that a little bit more? Because that's going to be the side of the house where my house is.

Yeah, I think you're referring to AC condensers and I mentioned earlier that the new fence will be shielding it from any. Sight line

okay. I thought I heard something about landscaping. So maybe I misunderstood that. But there will be a fence that's going to be covering that okay, yes.

Okay. I had just heard landscaping. Okay. And I mean, I know whenever you build a new house that there's a lot of vulnerability with the existing trees. And, you know, I know you talked about the trees that are already on the street side, but I guess there's going to be some vulnerability with those trees whenever you build a

There'll be tree protection though. Nancy, there will be tree protection around the trees that will stay on the site though.

I understand, but I just know other people who have built new houses and we're told within five years, their trees will probably die in the street and they did. So I don't know if there's additional protection, but I'm just making that comment. And there's already a very vulnerable tree on that between my house and the other house. that's being watched very closely. So I'm concerned about trees because everywhere around me, trees are being taken down. And I think one of the most wonderful things about our community is the trees. So I'm being a little protective of these trees.

I think since we're going to be using the existing driveway, there won't be any abnormal impact driving up and back from the site. So it's protected. I couldn't imagine damaging anything there.

Well, I think it's just the roots, the root system. Now, again, I don't know if this is this area or not, but is there any discussion about the timing on this project? Or is that a different conversation?

Immediately. Right now is fine. Yes. And we want it completed immediately. What does that

mean, immediately? I mean,

we don't need any encouragement for it to be completed. But what do you think, Eric? Eric Bly is the builder of TGS Construction.

Eric, can you come up so that Nancy can hear the... I think it just a little context too. And you guys probably know this. We've literally been living with this house looking into like for up before COVID. So I think there's just concern in the neighborhood that, um, you know, if, and when this house is approved for reconstruction, how long it will take, because again, the neighbors have just been dealing with such awful, um, such an awful condition for many years now. So,

yeah, no, I mean, I think we want to get going as soon as we can. So that's the plan. Susan would get through the, you know, the process of getting the permit we're trying to go. I mean, as far as the construction timeline, you know, we're looking at, you know, eight to 10 months would be, would be the timeline. So

that's pretty quick too, to build a

house.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, I mean, we're looking at using as soon as we can, as soon as they're, you know, the beginning of our permits are ready to go. We've been ready to go for a while, so we're just, yeah. Okay. Thanks. Sure.

Um, again, I have, I just have another question about, again, I don't know if this is relevant here or not, but I have a similar concern about the vehicles because it's a really narrow street, but I don't know that's a conversation that we have here or in another meeting.

They're going to follow the guidelines. Nancy, what about it?

Well,

I mean, the construction vehicles just, you know, it's a narrow street and there's a school.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I'm sorry, Steve.

the line of parents. I think after the foundation is done, we have that native driveway, and so I would think that would be four, that could be three vehicles, and we'll have two out front, and we'll make sure that the larger trucks will I don't know. That's logistics. I'm not sure how that's handled, but, you know, I guess you'll work with the city and make sure that you'll take care of that.

G-F-S-S.

Yeah, I just, I mean, I think it's, Nancy, I think that's a good comment, though, because it is, I don't know. And sir, I don't know from TGS. I don't know if you are like live around here, if your company is around here, but it literally is for 20 minutes in the morning and 20 minutes in the evening for Merrimack carpool, like the street is a gridlock. So I think it will be really important for you to work with like the building officials to understand that timing because otherwise people will not be able to pick up their kids. So I just think it'll be important to work with like you know i mean just communication will be very important throughout the building process and just again because of the unique location of the property so

thank you and i have one other comment um because of this house being kind of not being looked after over the past several years because of the previous owner I'm just really concerned about, I don't know what's inside this house. And with the demolition process, I assume that there's all kinds of standards that have to be done. I've never been so close to a demolition and I'm highly sensitive to chemicals. And I'm sure there's asbestos in the house and who knows what kind of mold there's in there. I mean, I could go on and on because I just don't know what inside that house. I assume there's just regular standards that have to be followed by the city as a house is demolished. So I don't know if anybody can shed some light on that for me, but I get nervous thinking there's asbestos and there's a demolition going on.

Well, demolition, there's an inspection done. There's best managed practices in removing any type of material that's asbestos or what have you. They don't just demolish, they don't just start pushing the building down. Right.

okay Okay, great. Thank you. I appreciate your letting me have this time to talk about these things because I think it was Bridget who said it's been really hard to be living next to this project for a few years. And I'm really pleased that you guys are building something that looks like it's going to be really nice. But as a neighbor, of course, we're going to have some concerns and I appreciate you're giving me the time to address mine.

Thank you.

Yes,

minute,

Or is

already?

Steve, can I make a quick comment? Yeah. Just something to consider. You know, we've talked about a trash enclosure and the addition of a trash enclosure, uh, Personally, I think it would be nice to see how that's handled. And then on top of that, the impervious coverage is already at 54.5%. So the addition of any trash enclosure could bump them over the 55%, which would trigger all kinds of other things. So just maybe something to consider of this, continuing this to a future meeting to allow maybe some of these to be addressed so we can see what that trash enclosure would look like and make sure that that impervious coverage doesn't go over

You could also think about, I mean, there might be a tree that you could add in the rear, you know, which would improve, you know, the backyard and then there wouldn't be the forestry fund. It's just something to talk about with a landscape architect.

No. It'll be. I'll make a motion to continue the site plan review to a date uncertain. Anna, would that

What did you say? I don't know. The house could go through permit review while we're waiting for site plan review? We're trying to remove that house, clean up that lot.

No, I know, and we just want to make sure.

I'm sure you guys do too. You want us to do that as well. Okay. Is

Second.

Aye.

all. Well, sure. I don't think it would impact the architecture.

Ryan? Homes on this block form a consistent character with similar materials and massing. Homes are two stories with red bricks, central entrances, and simple roof lines, flat from facades aside from bay windows, balconies, or covered entrances. Newer houses tend to be slightly larger in massing but follow similar trends. The home is proposed to be approximately 26.9 feet in height. Each of the adjacent homes is calculated approximate height is 20.5 feet based on the applicant's context elevation. The new home would be slightly taller than adjacent homes which is common for newer homes on this block. The home introduces more variation, greater massing than homes on this block. This is likely to have some visual impact given the consistency of homes nearby, but it's not out of form character for the Davis Place neighborhood. The new home incorporates brick with dark blue and gray hues and ebony metal siding. A new deck is proposed at the rear yard with materials unspecified. The decking appears to match the color of the house and the applicant has specified that no vinyl materials will be used. A new fence is proposed and the applicant has stated that fencing and materials will be selected and permitted at a later date. Concrete is proposed for the driveway and front entry path. Staff are of the opinion that the concrete should match the city standard pour of Meramec sand and gravel. As proposed, the materials meet the architectural review guideline requirements. The building materials will differ from adjacent homes, which is likely to have some visual impact. It will contribute to the variety of styles and materials in the Davis Place neighborhood. Staff recommend approval with the condition that the concrete paving matches the city standard pour of Meramec sand and gravel.

Tony? I guess I can expand on that. uh you know the architecture you know we wanted to have some type of contemporary bent to it maybe with the monochrome look uh uh but you know we wanted we wanted the we wanted the hip roof so that we can tuck the building uh without having gable ends the neighbors are because we're kind of uphill we want them looking at a gable end so we kept it kept it low lying as well um The... You know what? Can I show you the brick and colors? I don't know if I'm... I was going to talk a little bit about massing,

but...

Tony, can you just talk into the microphone? Just because people are online. Just otherwise they can't hear you. Thank you.

Yeah, so... Yeah, we wanted to, you know, Clayton likes a consistent aesthetic to some degree. So you can't go too far with the contemporary look. But we thought maybe we could achieve it with the brick color, maybe kind of a monochromatic look. Our roof... You know, we have a dark roof. It sort of has a blue slate tint to it, but the gutters and soffit are black to kind of bring that cap down and around that meets the gray brick. You see the metal siding, standing seam metal siding there. That's probably not done very often, but I would love for you to see the quality of that material. Can I show it to you? No, I didn't have... Well, you know what? I think it's on here, but you probably don't have

I'm waiting on material. Material is... Can you talk into the microphone so that people online can hear you? Okay.

It has a wrinkle-cold finish. It's a really beautiful, soft patina. It's not just your typical standing seam metal siding. It's really beautiful. So that's vertical siding. Yes. We thought it would be a nice break because you go with the gray brick. It's beautiful. It's Glengarry Iron Spot. It's gorgeous brick. But we thought it would give it a little bit more interest, so we brought it around. We just think it really breaks up the brick. And we thought, you know, Clayton is dynamic, but they like a consistent look. But I thought if we could throw in something that's still kind of, standing scene was still kind of old world. You know, it harkens back to the period of when that subdivision was built and beyond. We thought that the gray color and the black color really is kind of an organic look. It really will blend well with the site. We're going to go with a buff mortar so that lightens it up a little bit. It kind of ties in with the driveway. You know, we've kind of gone with kind of a deeper soffit to give it kind of a little bit mid-century look, for lack of a better term. You know, the metal siding over the entry door is a flush fascia. Gives it kind of a clean, simple, modern look, but still kind of harkens back a little bit to the history with the Sanixi metal. You know, I did want to throw in something that's a little... maybe contemporary, but I have a metal canopy that goes over the porch. I don't know if you noticed that. And that was going to be black and that caps off the brick and that's where the siding begins from there. That's kind of the line of demarcation. I just think that the front has a really nice balanced look. To the right, there's a second floor loft with a rail there. You know, the door just opens and you can't walk out on it, of course, and that will tie in with the metal rail that we're going to use on the deck, which is really beautiful. The decking as well as same color tones. Yeah, it's I mean, the architecture was meant to be very simple massing, just like the rest of the housing. You know, so. That's all I

Oh, I'm sorry. I meant that was basic. Maybe I should have specified. I'm sorry. It was meant to the brick color and buff mortar and the siding. That siding is the exact same siding.

didn't pick it up.

I was wondering, there's a house right on Y-Down that's very similar. Totally symmetrical. No interest whatsoever. This house has much more interest. Maybe we should have got that address.

No, I know which one. It's 7430 Y-Down. Okay, thank you.

I really wasn't focusing on the negative and positive void.

I mean, I'm sure you're capturing everything. I mean... The the varying heights that there's a stairwell right there that that graduates up to. The the entry, which is emphasized by that contrast the materials we have another material that is juxtaposed with the brick with the kind of July balcony there. The the windows are much more variety than was even a previous house earlier, which I shouldn't reference. Very simple style. I feel like I'm breaking up the windows. You know, you can call it depressing. But there's, you know, it's very much a look that people appreciate nowadays, the macrame look. And Clayton, keep building houses with the same brick, same brick, same this, same that. How about introduce something that gives a little bit more dynamics to the architecture? It just seems like there's nothing that's allowed to be introduced that counters the tapestry of architecture. Can we work with it? Oh, I think so. But if it's too depressing, I mean, there's something about it that you can articulate that I could respond to? Go ahead. I'm

Well, I want to respond. And I know I don't know if that's the consensus, but...

But I could see that entry there where it's recessed at the entry door could be all limestone clad, of course. That would give it a little bit more variety and a little bit more focus to the entry door.

Yeah, I mean, I just have a little trouble with this rendering because it is hard to see. So I don't know if you're able to come back with something that's a little bit more so you can see the detailing a little bit because it is hard one-dimensional you know you're not really getting a lot of three-dimensional in this rendering i mean i know there's again i'm not a professional but i know that we we've seen other renderings where there you really can see more of the three-dimensional aspects so that might be helpful um i i'm not i am um i think that there's absolutely um you know, certainly you see a lot of red brick, of course, in Davis Place, the neighborhood, you know, where this is. I'm not suggesting that it has to be red brick at all. And I quite frankly, if you want a house that's dark, I think that that's up to you and that's up to the property owners. In terms of adding a little detail, I think that would be great. I think you're correct. I think that people would appreciate to see something, you know, perhaps a little bit different, but that's just my opinion. Um, I think that the house on Y down that you're referencing, I don't find it particularly attractive. And I think this house has a lot more detail to it. Um, that house is very dark and I feel like it does kind of stick out a little bit. Um, is that a bad thing? I don't, you know, that was, that was the choice of those owners to build a house like that. So I I'm however, um, I think this house, especially with the roof, and I like the siding, that introduction of a little bit more material, the front door. But I do think it would be really helpful for me and maybe other people to see the detailing better on just a better rendering.

Well, you know, I think the lack of detail was also part of the aesthetic.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, you're not capturing, like, you know, the... The soldier on the left side of the front elevation wraps around to the termination. With this brick, when you do a soldier, you can really see the soldier that breaks it up. But to add detail to this would kind of take away from the aesthetic, if you ask me.

And I, I mean the left elevation, you know, and again, I guess this is up to the property owners and you just hardly has any windows. I don't know if you want that few windows. It just, but. Yeah, I

just, I kind of work from the floor plan, you know? Um, but we'll see if we can puncture that with a little bit more, a few more windows. I mean, on the right elevation, I have a lot of windows. They align with each other. There's a lot of consistency, uh, the front as well, the rear. I mean, I went out of my, and I know, and I'm sorry, I know how you're not catching this, but the window over the garage, I broke up. I wanted the window to center in the master bedroom. And since it was going to center, I went out on my way to bring over that hip so it centered right at that window. then where i broke it to the right to give it centering that's when i inserted a little bit of a break of material there

yeah and it's just hard seems like it makes sense to see that yeah i know

right i was just trying to tell you my logic but can

yeah oh sure

Well, you see the soffit. You see the profile. I mean, well, I see the profile of the soffit, I don't think. You may or may not see that, but You'll see the profile. I mean, like the new house, maybe three houses south that had the drive taken up the entire side coming down below, they went with a reverse gambrel. They went with extremely low and then high just to meet within the building height. And I know you don't see that. And I'm not trying to resist, but...

comment. Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought the low-lying slope as well lends to a little bit of a modern aesthetic as well, instead of your high ridge, like everything, or your high slope, like a lot of houses have.

Well, I don't think I'm counting on it because... And maybe if you went to the 2D drawing, you could see a little bit better. We are looking at the 2D. Well, that's the rendering that I do that washes out all the detail. But, yeah, I don't have a mouse here. But, yeah. I think you can see a little bit more clearly. But you can see over the garage. Now, if I was looking up at it, you'd see that soffit die centered with that window. And I even went out of my way to, if you went to the left, to the right elevation, you can see that I brought the roof plane up to raise that hip roof. I went through a lot of detail through all this to break it up. Yeah, I mean, try the mouse. Yeah, you can see.

Okay. Wonderful. Okay. Yeah, so like this roof plane here, I brought that roof plane up to bring up this soffit, and then I brought it back down at the master closet. I think that's a nice break. But you're not capturing it, so I'm sorry.

you're missing. It's all washed out. I'm sorry, yeah. Well, when I see it on my screen, like each line, I gave it a gradient of like gray and it looks great. Yeah, so we'll get you a rendering.

thanks for the input.

The color bothers me.

What bothers you?

The color. of the brick. I think you've got a good beginning if you had shown that in a red brick, beige, white, but the black is...

Oh, you know what though? I'm sorry to interrupt you.

No, quite honestly, I wear a lot of black and it's kind of my go-to color, but In this case, I agree with Steve. It's depressing. Yeah. Black, dark gray. In the sunlight, it'll look light. But if we have dark days and at night. Now, if you had shown it in another color, I'd say, yeah, maybe a little more detail, rowlock, soldier courses, that kind of thing.

So a lighter gray would be sufficient?

It might be. I mean, I'm not going to tell you yes. I'd like to see it. I'm a visual person. But the dark, that brick... I think really takes away from what you've proposed. So.

Unfortunately, I'm in an agreement. I also think when you, you know, when you look at this maybe by itself, I can see like your design intent, you know, around it. But I think when you look at it in the context of the neighborhood and the street, I just think it stands out way too much. It doesn't feel like it's part of that community and part of that street. You know, you have all these houses that are, you know, a similar style, similar brick color, and then you go into a school and that, you know, it's massive building. That's also kind of a similar, you know, look and brick color. And then you're going to have this, like, I won't call it black, but like dark, you know, gray, like unit just kind of on that street. So I think there, um, that's an issue. Um, I think the metal paneling also is kind of, again, I think the design intent is there. And which makes sense, but I just don't feel like it fits within the context of this neighborhood.

Yeah. Maybe the house on white down was allowed because it's maybe a little bit more urban because it's next to a road and there's kind of some commercial nearby and maybe that's why it was allowed.

When I think there's like some, you know, white stuff, I just think it's softer than kind of what this is being proposed. Um, And I can see that a lot of care was put into this design, so I don't want to say that you didn't do that. I just think in the context of where this actual house will be doesn't fit.

I know 7430 Y down has come up a handful of times here, and I know as someone who's newer to this board, when you drive around Clayton, you kind of see certain houses and you look and you think to yourself, it's like, man, that's not one I want on my record. And every single, and I drive past almost every single day, 7430 Y down is not one I want my record. And as soon as I saw this, I literally went and looked up that address. Cause I'm like, I, I take a lot of issue with this dark of a color. I think Kami brought up a really good point that I'm glad she did. It's something that I was thinking is I hear you throwing around terms like contemporary, mid-century. What I didn't hear any of is any inspiration you took from Davis Place.

Well, I mentioned the massing. It was very similar in that because a lot of the houses are very simple, not a lot of architectural features. And I thought the massing was, the window arrangements were rather conventional in the front. But I thought this house, you know, it may be a property that may be sold to the market. And we're also want to do something that meets the market. And this is kind of a desire from the market that likes a little bit more contemporary house. But I understand that Davis Rive is a different neighborhood. You know, it's very traditional.

yeah and you know homes are not islands and they need to fit into a context and i feel like the whole reason we have an architectural review board here is because of the strength of the neighborhoods in clayton so yeah it's it's hard to not feel like it's a very square peg being just hammered into a round hole um i guess a couple other things it definitely seems um your design intent is going to be much better served with a realistic sketchup rendering versus the colored rendering that you have. I think if you feel that your colors and details will pop more, I think that's a great way to kind of illustrate that. If you see some of the other things that kind of came before, um, I know your concrete's not listed. So I would, if you're coming back, make sure you use an exposed, uh, list and exposed aggregate for your driveway and stuff like that as part of Clayton requirement. Um, And then also, I know as part of, and this is more just a curiosity, I know as a part of the filing process, they ask for comment from the trustees. And I was just curious what your feedback was from the Davis Place trustees on this.

I didn't hear that there was a trustee. There is? No, we looked into that.

I'm sorry. Because that's honestly one of the, as someone who's ending my tenure as a trustee in my neighborhood, I know that I just feel like something.

Of course. I thought I called and, I don't know, I thought I called in. You guys mentioned that there wasn't a trustee board there, but I did call and ask, but I misunderstood. Understood. I mean, this was at the initial phase.

I always do. I always because that was one of the first things I thought of because I was just very curious. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. I was very curious what the feedback from the Davis Place trustees would be if this is something they would welcome with open arms or if this is something that they feel is an amalgamation compared to.

Right. I see where this is leaning. You know, we ought to just delete the metal siding because that kind of works with the look. And we'll just come back with more conventional materials with the neighborhood or

Right. Go ahead and do that. I mean, I'll just muddy it up worse because I like 7430 Y down. But I think I like it because there's a really simple symmetry on it. And I agree. I think the soft accents on it really work. And at night when it's lit up, I think it looks great. So that's just me speaking personally. I know everybody's different, but does it

have

architectural

detail?

not a whole lot. Yeah,

because see, that's

your... So everybody's going to be different and I think you've heard the comments here in getting it maybe more and keeping a little bit with Davis Place. I do think the vertical metal siding and that sort of thing, it does stand out in that neighborhood and it's a little maybe too different.

I mean, I feel like because if you go up and down, why down? I mean, there's a house close to DeMond that is so unusual and very contemporary. I just think it is very dependent on, yeah, Davis Place is very traditional. But if you go over to parts of Clayton Gardens, you do find more contemporary looks. So it is very from street to street things

can change. I'm sorry. I hope you don't feel I'm forcing my opinion. But I think you made your point that Davis Place, it's a different place. ecosystem of architecture it's very conservative so yeah

um make a motion to continue uh the architectural review for um a future date

second yeah so two weeks will be

you'll talk to anna about it yep

you.

Yes, I have a quick question and only one. Is there an intention to sell this property or is that an appropriate question for here? Is

it a spec house or you have the owners?

Right.

Most of these aren't the property owners?

They are the property owners.

Oh, but they're not going to live in the house.

They're not going

to

I'm sorry, did I need to be satisfied?

No, but that's what Nancy was asking. That's what I'm just curious

about. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That was my only question.

Thanks. Okay.

Subject property is located on the west side of Topton between Maryland and Kingsford. The property is owned to R2 and is in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The developer received approval for construction of the new home on December 16th, 2024. The project was originally proposed as a speculation build and amendments are now proposed to address preferences by the buyer. These include relocation of the front yard path and reconfiguration of the associated grading, reorganization of the drainage to capture more roof runoff, relocation of the HVAC units to the north side yard, modifications of the rear deck, addition of stairs to the driveway from the rear yard. Staff are in approval with the following conditions. One, that the applicant shall provide a percolation test report conducted by a qualified geotechnical engineer. The report must assess the performance of the proposed dry well based on the anticipated impact of a 15-year, 20-minute storm event. Should the results indicate that the proposed dry well is insufficient to accommodate the stormwater runoff generated by this event, the applicant shall be required to upsize the dry well according to ensure adequate performance and compliance with the applicable stormwater management standards. And two, to ensure future maintenance and operation of the drywall, the applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system and shall submit proof through recording prior to issuance of a building permit.

Mike Thompson, Thompson Design Group. I'm the architect. The engineer could not come tonight. He had something else going on, but basically it's very few changes to the site plan. We did relocate the mechanical units and put a screening wall in for them and essentially put a stairway going up so you can get from the driveway to the backyard. that is essentially what caused this. We went up 0.1% still within the standards, but that's really what caused that. As far as from the concerns that were with the original approval, I noticed the civil engineer, he's already upsized the dry well to 120% of what a 20-year event would be. And so now we understand we still need to do the percolation test, but We've got a 20% buffer to start with, I think. So hopefully we'll take care of all the water concerns. And I think the only thing the staff didn't mention is, I was just going to say, the retaining walls, which were originally like a VersaLock mosaic type, have now changed by the homeowner's preference. They wanted to do the brick and with a stone cap to match the house. So all the retaining walls you see as far as even the wall around the mechanical units will all be the brick matching the house with a stone cap on, which would be a really nice look.

That's what I thought.

There was a lot of discussion about drainage initially, so we took that into account.

No, no. The building size didn't change. The roof didn't change. So really, other than that, like I said, other than that tenth of a percent that we gained by the couple little changes we did. Otherwise, nothing would change with it.

fence? No, it would be, again, one of those brick walls. Oh, they're also... With a stone cap on it.

will have a much nicer look.

was supposed to mention too, we have a homeowner here and that's why the change is it actually is a Clayton residence. I haven't met them or anything, but I understand they're a Clayton residence now and wanted to stay in Clayton. So they're purchasing this house.

I didn't have any additional comments Steve asked about the dry well. So

Ellen?

No additional comments.

Amy?

Comments?

Tim? No comments for site plan.

have

I'll make a motion to recommend approval with the two conditions in the staff report

review. So architectural review for this project was last approved in January 1st of this year and the following changes are proposed. The use of a red brick rather than the dark gray, floor plan modifications including opening of the rear sunroom and removal of the basement window on the front elevation. Staff recommend approval is submitted.

Okay, materials, again, some slight changes due to the having an owner in their preferences. There was some brick detailing along the top. Well, should start out with the kind of major change. We have less stone now on the two bays along the front. There's just a narrow stone there with brick detailing over the windows. They like that idea. It's consistent with all the windows around the entire house, that detailing of the brick. And it gives a little smaller stone line going around there. Basically, so it kind of concentrates more of the stone look around the actual entry, the front door. Although we've actually taken a little bit of the door itself is not surrounded by stone. It has stone over it. There's the roof actually was raised just slightly to do the same kind of brick detailing over top of the windows instead of, instead of the trim coming right down to the windows. As you move around the house kind of the big change that was done. These what we had a sunroom in the back of the house is now changed to an outdoor room. And the fireplace that was there originally was just a cantilevered fireplace with a stucco board on it. Now that's a wood-burning fireplace, so it adds a whole chimney going up the rear of the house, which is a really nice look. There's brick, of course, now. And it actually has a fireplace in the master bedroom, too, while it's going up there. Otherwise, I guess I pointed out that whole... Look is all repeated with with quality all the retaining walls that you have around the House. And I think yeah that was that was really the changes to it as far as the materials, you see the brick there. it's this right here, the driftwood would be the the shingle that we have on the roof.

correct? I think that shingle will come off really pretty close to what that is. The brick may be slightly darker. The material of the brick was actually picked by a house that they sent a builder as far as a brick that they liked. And so, and they had the brick supplier go by and this was the brick of it. So it's just slightly different from what the rendering is there.

I think one of the things about this house when you're in most of these rooms, because there's bays on two different sides, I was telling the builder that, yeah, basically people will be stunned by the amount of light when they walk in the rooms. Bridget?

No, I think it looks very nice. Thank you. No comments.

I like the changes. Yes. Well done. And a small detail that bothered me was the numbers over the door that were quite large. Yeah, the devil is in the details. So well done.

Yeah, I think the changes are definitely an improvement. So nicely done.

I find the changes in improvement as well.

David? Looks great. Thank you.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted Second.

Aye.

Just as quick as possible. It will probably take me until tomorrow to get the drawings done. And then, yes, we'll have it in for permit. So, yep. Well,

Alrighty, so for 7632 Westmoreland, the site plan was originally considered on March 3rd and was continued for the following revisions. One, so neighboring ash tree was a point of concern given its potential conflicts with proposed landscape plan. The most recent landscape plan revisions included a letter stating that they would remove the neighbor's tree at their request. two street trees are normally located in the tree lawn between the sidewalk and the street however no trees are present in this space and public works did not request any be planted there is an additional five feet of right-of-way between the sidewalk and a property line this area contains trees that are proposed to be removed and public works is not going to seek replacement or compensation for those trees and then three in the city's landscape architect had concerns about crowding of trees on the site and their longevity in these concerns uh, street trees are normally located in the tree lawn between the sidewalk and street. However, no trees are present in the space. Um, and then there's, oh, I'm sorry. Um, Sorry, I accidentally wrote my notes wrong here, guys. Essentially, the concern that they had about the location of trees, they removed some trees in the rear yard and they removed some in these back corners. Additionally, with no trees being requested in the front tree lawn, the big ones in the front were not going to be as much of a concern. So the crowdedness of trees was not going to end up being a concern. With those fulfilled, staff recommend approval with the following conditions. One, that the applicant shall provide a percolation test to be conducted by a qualified geotechnical engineer. The report must assess the performance of the proposed drywall based on the anticipated impact of a 15-year, 20-minute storm event. Should these results indicate the proposed drywall will be insufficient to accommodate the stormwater runoff generated by this event, the applicant shall be required to upsize the drywall accordingly to ensure adequate performance and compliance with the applicable stormwater management standards. Two, to ensure the future maintenance and operation of the drywall, the applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system and shall submit proof of the recording prior to issuance of a building permit And three, that the applicant shall contribute to the forestry fund compensatory with the requirements of Section 405-410-C2A. Clarification on that last point, with them removing some of the trees, they did fall below the canopy coverage requirement, but the landscape architect felt that that would be better for the longevity of those trees rather than to crowd the site trying to meet the canopy coverage requirements.

Other than I know last time basically everybody was was happy with the the drainage and what civil engineer was doing is really just. landscape issue, and I think probably the biggest part of the landscape issue was was solved by taking down the neighbors tree that they had asked to be removed because. Admittedly, we were trying to plant trees underneath another tree, which is probably not a way to make trees live. So that all got solved.

I was just curious on our Ryan, are you able to speak to why. We wouldn't want to put a new tree in the in the tree on or what was the reason it was there a reason for that or.

So there were, there are technically street trees noted on this site. Public works did not actually have record of those. They're considered street trees because they were in the public right-of-way. They were not where street trees typically are. So since there were none before, public works said we're not going to make them plant any. And because of the trees that were there that were not of record and were not in the place that they usually are, Public Works wasn't concerned with having them replaced. Additionally, because they've got two big trees proposed right there adjacent to the property line, they felt that they were maintaining that canopy coverage that the street trees are meant to provide.

I understand. I mean, it is unusual. It's a very short... Like, it's a very narrow street. You know what I mean? It's not... I don't know how well trees would necessarily grow right there, so maybe that was a thought, but...

something that's not noted on this site plan, but is a condition of it. So directly adjacent on each of the properties, there's street trees that are pretty close on either side. Um, so additionally public works, they weren't concerned. They're not concerned about there being a gap in space essentially.

Um, and then, so just so, and I know we talked about drainage a little bit, but when I was relooking at this, um, I know that the only increase was to the alley. then in the staff report it says a rear yard drain and downspouts on the garage would be piped to a pop-up inner so you're pop you're taking it all the way from the garage all the way to the front of the yard um

i believe so yes it's

a long way to go yes i guess because the increase is already at the uh i mean you already have an increase going to the back so then you're going to

minimize that as much as possible

okay um I'm just trying to remember. So there still wasn't an increase, though, to the front, right? There was not. The only increase, I guess, was to the back, which I just said.

Yes.

Because it does slope down significantly. You know, so again, just making sure there's not water flowing down onto the sidewalk, which there's not now, you know, unless there's a huge rain event. So... And I do feel, I think there was, you said that the, you guys got something signed from the neighbor related to the tree.

Yes. Yeah. And

that's all, I guess will be submitted to staff at some point or. Correct. Okay. Okay. I don't have any other comments on the site plan. Ellen.

No comments or questions.

Amy.

No

comments.

Tim. Your trash enclosure is 6 foot 6 inches by 9 foot 9 inches. Can you tell me as far as on what face that opens up to take the trash out?

Which direction? On the 6-foot face, yeah.

So the 6-foot, I assume the side right next to the garage doors?

Yes, yes. And the part, of course, is the side towards the alley.

Okay. So based off of – it doesn't look like there's concrete there, so will they just drag those through the grass or – Is that the intention or?

I thought there was, well, there is a.

I don't see a concrete pad, I

see. There's a walk that goes there to the driveway. That goes around there to the side, okay. Right. Yeah, door going both ways, yeah. They just walk right there to the driveway. Got

it. I don't have any questions.

I will make a motion to approve the site plan with the three conditions stated in the staff report.

Second.

The architectural review is continued with the following requests to provide material samples, provide the garage rendering, provide a roof plan for the house and garage. The garage rendering and roof plans have been provided. No architectural changes are proposed and staff recommend approval with condition that the trash enclosure have a wood texture.

I think last time we were here, as we went around, everybody liked the look of it. We didn't have materials here before. And in the meantime, I've also drawn a roof plan. In fact, I see now we have a rendering of the garage that we didn't have before. So there's as far as the brick. And otherwise, it would just be the dark roof there is what you're seeing in the rendering and as far as the materials. um I guess in my humble opinion is very nice looking house uh it said that uh it does fit in with the neighborhood and so um I I really like it so

uh yes It's a gray stone, yes. Well, even over the peaked roofs? The fascias that are gray, no, would be more of a cement board. Oh, okay.

dark roof. Right, with the copper accents with gutters and that, yes.

Bridget. I mean, I, I agree that. And I think the garage is very attractive. I think it's a very pretty house. I just have a lot of trouble and this kind of came up. This has come up. They came up at the last meeting. I really am concerned. At how high the roof line is. I mean, The house immediately to the east of it, I think because it's so flat, it feels very imposing when you're on the sidewalk. I mean, it just feels like a tall house. So it is overwhelming to me to think that this house is almost seven feet taller. The roofline is seven feet taller than the house to the east. The house to the west, I think when it was built, probably... I would guess probably the architects or the developers probably thought, you know, there's a much smaller house in the middle. So they had the roofline come significantly down so that, again, probably providing some deference to the, you know, I'm not sure what style you would consider the house that's coming down. I don't know, arts and crafts. I'm not sure, bungalow. I don't what you would say. But I think it was nice how they kind of provided some deference and height you know the height came down significantly it is a tall house or at least it comes to the midpoint you know of your roof but it's so far over so really when you're looking at the house to the west it doesn't feel very big or very tall so I'm I am very concerned that this house is gonna you know there was a new house built down the street which is two stories and it blends in very well and it's not much taller than the houses on either side because it's a two-story home but you've got almost three stories in a house that is a new house and you've got new houses on either side. And to have this house be so significantly taller, I just think it will loom over the sidewalk. I think it will loam over the house on either side. So I would just prefer to see it a two-story home and have the roofline come down. I just feel like it will really loom over houses on either side and really loom over the sidewalk.

Well, essentially what we did with our house, the gutter line lines up with the house on the east side. Now, we do have larger windows in our house, which makes it look bigger than the single smaller windows on that house. I guess whether you like windows or not, we happen to. No, I love windows.

Yeah, I'm not afraid of big windows. Okay, good.

But as far as the gutter line, we actually on this house now has a nine foot second floor. We actually pull the front wall down to an eight foot in order to make the gutter line line up. So so it looks like our house is not taller than that. Now, as far as the roof going up from there, of course, as we talked about last time, the roof is other than the gables, the roof is going away from you. Right. So, yes, a peak of our roof is above the peak of their roof. the peak of our roof is going to be back further from the street also than the peak of their roof. So

I think it's even just that peak in the front, you know, it just feels very because I think you are trying to get a full story basically on the third floor. So that peak in the left that it's on the, I guess the Eastern side is very high. And I think that's what you're going to feel at the street. So I'm just concerned about how it's going to feel. You know, it just, I think it will feel very imposing. I think it's a very attractive house. I think it's very pretty. It's not so much, but I think just from the standpoint of the context of like even just the new houses on either side, I just think it will feel so tall, so.

Ellen.

Picking up from Bridget's concern about the height, The drawings indicate the third floor has a 10 foot three ceiling.

At the exterior walls, it has a seven or actually it's a five foot 10 ceiling that slopes up to in the middle of the room. The reason for that 10 foot three is the back of the house, you step up to come onto that room there and onto the roof deck. So that will give that room a nine foot ceiling.

Could you pull it down? It's a third floor ceiling. and has the context with the game room kind of like the old-fashioned attic and going back to when they had a ballroom on the third floor. It's a different space. It's not your main floor or your second floor. The third floor is kind of a fun, more intimate space with the walls, the ceiling coming down. Could you pull that 10 feet down to 9?

Yes. And really, the 10 foot and the two front rooms is what you're seeing. Like I said, it's based on to keep the ceiling height the same as the rear room there, which is up two steps. They're up 15 and 1 half inches. And that's the 10 foot three versus a nine foot one is the difference in the height there. We don't actually need the height in the front rooms as far as, I mean, do you need a 10 foot ceiling? No, of course not. But what would be difficult is against the outside walls, we're actually five foot 10 inches. They're on those two front rooms. So actually the ceiling will be shorter than I am. So that we were trying not to go smaller on. because the ceiling is at 5'10", which means the windows start out at about five feet tall up there. They truly do have the attic type of dormer type of thing where everything is short.

Yeah, I don't have the solution, but it looks with the angles, going from the angles over the door and then picking up that line. That all looks good, but when you put it in context with what's adjacent, that sharp swooping up emphasizes the height and your roof it'll be back but on the sides it doesn't break at an angle until higher than your gutter line

Right, okay.

So everything is pulling your eye up. It is receding. The roof is receding away from you. But I think if you could just pull it down a bit. I

think the one foot would make...

Yeah, I mean, that may be a small amount, but I think with this... Anything, if you could bring the east-west ridge down to the ridge going north-south. So there's a whole lot of roof there, and your roof, I did try to figure it out. It is challenging.

Yep.

lot of flashing and valleys and all of that but i think anything that you could do to bring it that roof line that ridge down would be good other than that i like it i mean it looks good i like the colors um Amy,

can I just jump? Oh, Helen, I'm sorry. Can I just, like, what was your thing? Because I'm just curious, like, you know, there's a house that's similar to this with like a similar lot size that was in Clayton Gardens. And that was just a two-story house. Was there a reason that you wanted to add another story here? What was your, I mean, was there a thinking or the...

Just the size of the lot. You know, it's allowed here. It's done in the neighborhood. But for what the, for what the developer pays for the original house. You know, you've got to, you've got a recoup the investment kind of thing. And so yeah.

And I wouldn't say that there is a lot of like third, I mean, I, you know, like I wouldn't say, I mean, most people just have two story homes. I don't think that there's, you know, and if there's a half story, it's kind of what Helen was talking about. It's a very small, you know what I mean? Like kind of bonus room that you might get on a third floor, but yeah. But Amy, go ahead. I'm sorry. I just didn't know if your thought process was different.

No. If you could do that, that would be great.

I'm just curious because we're kind of hearing the same statements that you heard at the previous meeting. Did you look at shortening this or doing anything to adjust the height of this building?

Well, we looked at – and we're doing this on a current house now on University. I think you mentioned last time where we do the same thing. We pull it down a foot in the front to bring the height of the new house down closer to where the houses around it are kind of thing. And so kind of felt that if our gutters match up between houses – I don't know that that should be sufficient.

So like nothing? No adjustments were thought

through? Not other than that. The trick that we do of pulling it down to eight feet, yeah, in the front, yeah.

Okay. Because this is also

on a hill,

is that

right? There's a slight hill up from the street, yes. Okay.

Yeah, I just think when we're looking at kind of giving – a little bit of a leeway for homes that are higher, it's because they're next to older homes, right? Because, you know, older homes didn't have the 10 foot ceilings or whatever this one has. But in this scenario, that's not the case. These are both newer homes next to it and you're still towering over it just to get that full third floor. Is that right? So you can get that third floor in there?

I mean, the style of the house, it would not go down very much unless you greatly alter the style. I mean, the tallest roof there would basically come down to the gables if you didn't have the third floor, which I don't know if that's a foot, foot and a half, something like that. So it would come down.

Right. I mean, I guess the gables could also be shortened.

Right, if you start doing different slopes, that type of thing,

yes. So correct me, I misunderstand. The developer wants to make sure you get a third floor in here for the square footage, and that's why we're dealing with this height. Prefer that,

yes. And it has a view from the rear deck there on the third floor, looking at downtown Clayton. That's something that nobody else is gonna have. And so as far as sales would go, that would definitely be a selling feature.

Okay, great, thanks. Jim? I think maybe some of what Kami's getting at is we kind of sat here and made similar comments the last time we were here about we were concerned about the height And then basically brought the exact same plan without really any modifications or anything. So I just like, you know, that problem doesn't necessarily go away. So and really the only additional explanation you gave was the gutter line. I think maybe what she was expressing was just kind of a hope that you would come back to us with something a little bit different. I know materials is something that we've discussed on this project in several projects. You have a brick and you have a roof, but here there's a stone detail that we don't have an example of. We have a fascia detail that apparently matches that stone almost exactly. It'd be nice to kind of see that color fascia along with that stone to see how those match up in person and how those interact with those materials rather than just have those materials. Um, so, you know, the materials don't necessarily just stop at the primary material. Like if, I mean, you were here earlier for the 10 B mistake and you saw just the full array of materials they have. That's, I think I can't speak for the rest of the board. That's more of something that I want to see. I want to see the decisions that go into it. Um, especially because these renderings are just not accurate. And I can point out several things. If we look at this garage rendering here, from basically one end of your large garage door to going across the other end of the smaller garage door, that's a 50-foot span. This concrete pad that's behind that is only 10 feet deep. Yet, if you look, it looks like that concrete pad goes good 30, 40 feet or something. That concrete pad, there's just a small walkway that goes in front of your trash enclosure. But this shows it, your rendering shows it as, if you scroll down up there and see, and up there it's cut off versus this paper version that we have. But it shows the driveway extended all the way over here, a good... over six feet past that trash enclosure. We're looking at the back of this, and we're looking onto this tree-filled lot. But in reality, we'd be looking onto that back deck, and we'd be looking on to the back of that house. So it's hard to make decisions on a lot of this stuff when we're not getting accurate renderings.

Let me go back to when you said what was the 50-foot?

It's 50 feet, so your large garage door plus your small garage door. If you go from one side to the other side, it's 50 feet across.

No, it's 32 feet. It's 32 feet? The garage is 32 feet. The lot is 50 feet.

Okay. Then I have a number wrong, but still, if you look, this concrete pad in your rendering…

The concrete pad is absolutely wrong, yes.

Yeah, and… I feel like we should be able to have accurate renderings of what we're judging. I mean, that's only a 10-foot pad that's back there, and it doesn't extend as far as your rendering shows. And that's not what it looks out onto.

We should be showing more grass, no doubt, yes, and should be showing the house.

And that's been a problem in the past, too, as far as colors. As far as when materials have shown up, they're not matching the colors of the renderings. So especially when there's a lack of materials, we only have two materials here to look at versus this stone, this fascia. So all these things kind of add up to make it even if I 100% agree that I think just looking at this building as this, this is an attractive-looking house. But at the same time, it's also like, I don't know if that's necessarily what we're getting because we're not getting accurate renderings on a lot of the stuff.

I mean, I don't see anything in the front rendering and I have seen that before that I would correct at this point.

Even very little things on this front rendering, like this walk up to the front door, literally all that is, it's a... a click, hit P, up arrow four inches, and then you have an actually an accurate looking sidewalk as opposed to something that just kind of blends in with the grass. These are very easy fixes. They're very minor that can actually provide a more realistic rendering and something that actually looks more like what we're getting as opposed to As opposed to this was just like this concrete pad and stuff like that said it just it doesn't reflect what is actually going to be built so it's tough to make decisions when what we see is not what's going to be built.

David I don't have any additional questions.

I might just add, this is the first house, yes, where we've tried to do the third floor roof story, as you called it. And so, although really the house, we got maybe a foot or 18 inches above some of the other ones we've done. So it hasn't made a huge difference. I guess I was going off the code and saying, you know, we met the requirements of the state of Clayton, the city of Clayton. And as far as the height... shouldn't that be, I guess my feeling was, shouldn't that be sufficient? Why do we have requirements if we're suddenly not going to accept what the requirements are?

in the Navy. And we did start out with, I mean, we have the seven feet on each side of the house and we didn't try to go to five feet, knowing that we were going to be a little bit above the houses next to

No, I mean, I'll just say, I just, you know, I just, I just appreciate it when, you know, a builder comes in and at least looks at, you know, the surrounding, you know, and I'm not like, I think it's a pretty house. I just, like, I'll say it again. I'm just concerned about the height just because you can build a third floor and add, I mean, this is not a large lot. It's not, I mean, you, I think I'm sure you've been there. So I just think it will feel very oppressive. So.

I would agree with you. It's not a large lot. Now, it is 25%. For instance, University House, it is 25% bigger lot than that house has on it. And we're probably, like I said, we might be 18 inches tall or probably not even that. I think that house was 29. Well, and the

alley helps you out too. Yeah, the alley helps, no doubt.

We don't have to make room for driveways and all that kind of stuff. So it's

different.

I mean,

I... i will not vote for the architectural of this project i'll just tell you but that's you know i'm only one person on a board of six so yeah

I'll make a motion to approve the staff recommendation with the one condition stated.

Again, all those? Do you roll call those because I didn't get them?

Aye.

Nay. Aye. Oh, nay.

Nay. Aye.

I'm sorry, explain that to me again. What's happening? We return in a year?

No, I mean, you can make substantial changes to the design and come back with a new design. But if you want to come back with the same design that you have now, you have to wait for a year. Oh,

I see. Gotcha. Okay. All right. Thank you.

i would wait we won't take it to the board of all without the

you may

want to just table it then just

I'll make a motion to table the portion of the conditional use permit related to the accessory dwelling unit.

Second.

Nothing further.

Nothing further.

Bridget?

Nothing further.

David? Nothing. Brian? The next one should be shorter. Thank you.

Nothing further tonight.