March 17, 2025 — Meeting Transcript

Welcome, everybody. Let's make sure with a big crowd that the cell phones are turned off. If you wish to speak on an item, please wait until I ask for public comments. When there is an item you wish to speak, click to raise your hand if you are on Zoom and you will be given permission to speak. If you are in person, please come up to the podium and make sure the green light is on at the bottom of the microphone. Please start by giving your name and address for the record. If someone has already made the comments you have in mind, you don't need to repeat them. Ryan, you want to complete the roll call? Bob Denlow. Here. Helen DiFate.

Welcome, everybody. Let's make sure with a big crowd that the cell phones are turned off. If you wish to speak on an item, please wait until I ask for public comments. When there is an item you wish to speak, click to raise your hand if you are on Zoom and you will be given permission to speak. If you are in person, please come up to the podium and make sure the green light is on at the bottom of the microphone. Please start by giving your name and address for the record. If someone has already made the comments you have in mind, you don't need to repeat them. Ryan, you want to complete the roll call? Bob Denlo. Here. Ellen DeFayette.

Here.

Jim Arsenault. Here. David Gipson. Here. Okay. Now we also have minutes from our meeting on March 3rd. Are there any changes to the minutes? If not, I will entertain a motion, Helen.

Jim Arsenault. Here. David Gibson. Here. Okay. Now we also have minutes from our meeting on March 3rd. Are there any changes to the minutes? If not, I will entertain a motion, Helen.

I move to accept the minutes as submitted.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

It's been approved. Next, we go to the new business. The first on the agenda. I'm glad to see everybody is here. How are you? Okay. First on the agenda is an amendment to the Forsyth Point Sign Subdistrict. Is there a representative for the project here? But first, let's get an insightful summary from Ryan.

So the subject properties are the Forsyth Point Plainview Development located on Forsyth between Maryland and Brentwood. The PUD has a signed subdistrict that was approved in 2022 and later amended in 2023 and 2024. Signed subdistricts are intended to support creative, cohesive, and coordinated signage for a specific area. Sub-districts need to support the intent of the sign code and are not intended to increase signage of the site beyond what normal allowance is. Forsyth Point is a relatively new development, and as time goes on, the actual tenant's signage requests have differed from what was originally conceived. The proposal today is a combination of requests by the applicant along with recommendations from myself in conjunction with the applicant for how to maximize the flexibility of the signage without increasing the quantity of signage on site. There is a detail of the changes in the staff report, but I just want to go over a couple of examples so you guys get the idea of what the changes are that we're looking at. So this is the current sub-district. It is a prescriptive, so essentially it's very literal, where you see a box right here, say for office signage, you can put the office sign right there, only right there. That's the way it is for every bit of signage in this. So it's very rigid. Additionally, throughout the sub-district, it has more details about the different types of signage, but this is kind of a combination of... different sign plans so the page numbering is not necessarily consistent throughout, so it's hard to make reference to things. the proposal is of this format here. So some of the changes that you notice, there's still some prescriptive signage like your storefront blade signs are still very specific. There's a couple of retail tenant IDs that are very specific, but what we've done here is we've sort of created boxes that are in conjunction with the character of specific signage and provided clarifications. So for example, within this gold band here instead of being required to have an office tenant ID in this gold band here. You can put it, or sorry, having a specific location you could put anywhere within the gold band and then we specify the maximum amount of signage that is allowed in that space based on what would be allowed in the sign code. We've done that for other areas as well, such as this retail space right here that you can see in blue. So we've clarified that retail space, they can pick their version of a wall sign. Some window signs here may kind of double the same functionality as a wall sign. But you can put it anywhere within this blue space. It doesn't have to be a specific space as long as it conforms to set requirements. There are some examples in this where I've added clarifications that reference specific pages. An example of that can be found on the southern facade. This is along Brentwood here. And there are portions of the previous sub-districts that made reference to a wall sign here that kind of functioned as a multi-tenant sign, similar to a lot of ground signs. And so we've simply added a clarification that, okay, you can do something like that in this space as well. Can I just stop you right here for one second?

Mm-hmm. So we can move this along. Without these amendments, there is uncertainty that you could do these things?

There's uncertainty in some aspects of it, and then it's very, very specific in others, which has not allowed for some of the flexibility that tenants want, despite the fact that it would otherwise be allowed in our sign code. yes i mean that's essentially the summary of what we're doing it's creating more flexibility within the existing character of some of these signs nothing presented here is greater than what is allowed in the current sign code so staff are of the opinion that this proposal is compatible with the existing sign coding character of science nearby and recommend approval as submitted okay

thank you um we have a representative who wants to um explain to us why they think they need these changes

Scott Haley with U.S. Capital Development at 120 South Central, Clayton. As Ryan mentioned in the staff report, which I think he's done a very good staff report and outlined a lot of different things that captured some of the things, nuances that we've had to go through the last couple revisions. We're not asking for more than what the sign code would currently is just when something, when there's a box in the building, it has to be there rather than coming back to the architectural review board, give some flexibility, give some... comfort for some of the tenants we're talking to about encouraging them to come to the development. So it just, I think it cleans it up. I think we also had the option of eliminating this, the master sign district plan, but I think that from a standpoint, I think this document is better for both the other tower and our tower to have some simulants of how, how the signs would go up. And there's really not a desire to eliminate it, even though we there's an option could, but I think what is outlined here, we're very supportive of and happy that we were able to work with staff and, and listened to some of the recommendations that they provided us.

I mean, I see that you already have Hush. I don't know what Hush calls itself now, but Hush has their sign-up. Commerce has their sign-op. Emerson has their sign-ap. Are we just focusing more on the retail on the first floor?

Also, in terms of ours, Barry Waymiller will be our second office tenant on the West Tower.

Okay. And what I also am hearing is that what you're looking for is to have flexibility and more certainty to deal with the tenants rather than keep running back here for clarification. He

showed three boxes on the original one. Well, that's exactly where the box had to be. And if it doesn't, we want to slide it to the next bay or whatever. We didn't have that ability to really do it without coming back through the commission. Okay.

Well, I don't have any problems with it as I understand it. And with that, I'll turn our attention to Helen.

Okay, no, I don't know. I don't have many problems with it. I think it's well put together. And yes, I know with retail in particular, you need flexibility, especially if you're dealing with a chain. They have their requirements. And most times are not too flexible. I think this keeps it consistent with the architecture. And I think you're right, it needs to stay a district sub district, so that there is control You know, you have control. You know what you can offer, negotiate. So I think it looks good. Well done. Thank

you. I think it looks overall too. I don't really have any problems with it. I am curious if you can just share, like I said, this is more from curiosity's sake, just kind of like how things are playing out as far as In talking with tenants, can you bring to light any like specific situations that have come up with maybe the old regulation that have like a specific problem that's come up that has kind of led to more of this?

It's really not the regulation. It was really of the process to do such, you know, so that the square footage of Max and, you know, The true regulations of size and it was more about location. And so if we identified something there, they said, hey, we'd really like to slide it down. And we'd like, all right, we could, but we have to go through a process. Not that it's cumbersome. But it's just one of those things. It's just another step where during this process, we could say, yeah, we can put you instead of here. We can put you 15 feet over here. Saves time. Saves time and gives them some comfort. Just checks a box and where they're focused on. where we should be focused on attracting people rather than some of these things, which is going to happen anyway. So let's just, you know, and I think working with staff on keeping this and ironically, Denny's here with, you know, who helps manage the other, the Eastern tower, which falls under this plan. It gives us some, confidence which we know what we're doing together as well as what you know you know a future tenant down the line or how a change could be and so we have great flexibility here and we're satisfied with what staff has proposed and recommending.

And I'm happy how it fits in with kind of Clayton's current sign guidelines which I think are quite good. I know it's something that I noticed when I kind of go to other parts of town that have similar businesses and some of the signage differences. And I think anyone who's driven down Kings Highway past Waterway and then past the Waterway on Hanley, you can see just a very, very big difference. So I feel good about the fact that it kind of stays very much within kind of Clayton's sign code, but gives you the flexibility to do kind of what you need to do.

Out of curiosity, Do you still have like a bar golf place coming into your building?

That's one of the signs Five Iron Golf is going to be opening here in the next couple months.

As a golfer, this is your time to ask for a billboard on top of the building if you won't win it.

I promise, Ryan, I would not talk about anything above the eyebrow. But I do appreciate your comments about Times Square that you made a few years ago. And even though that might have been not the surrounding and supportive idea like it, but we're I think what we've done with the signage and some of the artwork and all that's very attractive and it's been well received. And so we're following that process.

Have a very classy product.

Yeah,

you really do.

It is. I mean, if it's not the best in St. Louis, it's second. And I don't even know what number one would be then.

Well, when Emerson came here, what a coup, I said to myself. And it had to be because of the building and the management.

You know what? I know we can get out of here, but we worked on this project for probably 15 years, and then we partnered with Commerce to expand the project so we could do the entire block, which was probably the... It's not... that's probably the best thing that's happened to that project was our partnership with, uh, commerce bank and Barryway Miller and in our company that, you know, we had three tenants and three owners and it was just well, well put together there. Um, and so you've created a great product that's been recognized, you know, elsewhere in the country. So excited about that. So.

With that, um, we, Oh, we have online people. David, do you have anything?

I don't have any questions or comments. I think it's a positive change.

Okay. With that, we do have a staff recommendation to approve it. Do we have a motion?

I move that we approve it as submitted.

Second. Ayes.

I'm so approved. Did I make one last comment? Um, I just wanted to, and I know I said this before, but I haven't been up here in a long time, at least a year or two, but Ryan and Ana have done an amazing job. And I know I've told David, um, I think it's great working with their department. They're fair, they know what they're doing. They come up with great ideas, but they're also an advocate for the city, but they're looking for the facilitation of the advancement and development of the city. And I think it's a great balance and being a former planning director, i appreciate that and i just want to make sure i recognize those two individuals specifically on this and david and gary and the you know everybody i deal with but specifically tonight for these two so we look forward to working on hopefully other things in the future so thank you from

where we appreciate hearing that because we we agree with everything you just said

good

okay we are ready for the second order of business um Second on the agenda is the architectural review for 8,000 Forsyth. Is there a rep here? Okay. But first,

the summary. Subject property is located on the southwest corner of the intersection of Forsyth and Merrimack. Property zoned high-density commercial is developed with a commercial office building and rear parking structure. A portion of this rear parking structure was recently demolished and the applicant is proposing the revised exterior for the remaining portion. The proposal would see one curb cut removed, a new ramp installed, a new planter bed added. The east facade, which faces Meramec, would have granite panels matching the existing building. The south facade would have a dark gray dyed concrete, similar to that granite. And then the rear parking lot would remain and a landscaped area would be located between the parking lot and the parking structure. Staff are of the opinion that it is compatible with the existing structure and surrounding area. Staff recommend approval as submitted.

Thank

you.

And the representative, can you give your name? Good evening.

Mike Keller, Christian Architects, 621 North Skinker. As Ryan mentioned, the project does propose to replace the existing ramp with some planters on the east. and move the ramp to the south. This increases the upper deck, be a little bit more functional. In terms of the architecture, it is intended to match with the granite along the east face of Merrimack, bring that down to the south and turn the corner. And then right about where the ramp begins, the material transitions to a dyed and formed concrete to reflect some of the textures that are in the tower additionally the the generator is located at the southwest corner and is clad or screened with a granite panel to match uh the existing east elevation The rest of that lot that was previously under the upper deck will be planted with native prairie grass and trees. And I do have samples, if anyone would like to look at those.

Of?

Of the granite and the concrete.

Is the granite just black?

It is. So the granite is black, has a little bit of a sheen or gloss to it. We're thinking that the concrete would be a darker tone but a little bit more matte. And again, this is only representative of color. We do plan to have a formed texture to it and that's represented on page six

of the submission. Mike, if I understand, you're actually shrinking the garage?

The upper deck was demolished. The south half of the upper deck was demollished. The net is a subtraction of area after the demolition, yes.

Significant?

Slight? Total area is about 10,000 square feet reduced. So we have shrunk the garage, but there is a small addition to the south edge of where the demolition line occurred. So what you see out there today, it will extend south. It's about 24 feet. So yes, there was a demolition that took away a greater portion, and then we're building back a little bit of that.

And the motivation to replace the garage is deterioration of the existing garage? Structural, correct. Yes. Generally speaking, of course, it looks a lot nicer than what was there before. No issue about it. I know the sidewalk runs downhill and the wall gets pretty tall, which I always try to discourage because it's like having a dam as pedestrians walk alongside of it. And there's no windows. There's no interaction. There's no people. But under the circumstances, it's not that long. the height of the elevation section. And again, you're going downhill and I do understand what's going on under all the circumstances. I think it's a far better addition to what was there before limiting the access bit there. I don't have any problems with it myself.

I do have a question about the drive through. Has it been eliminated.

The drive through

banking that had been there.

It has been eliminated. Yes.

Okay, and not replace

correct

On The area on the screen here the street view from the sidewalk. That little alcove, where does it go? What is it for?

Yeah. So currently there is an overhead door there. And we are proposing to replace that with a storefront to access the garage from below. So you could enter that and this would be a secured entry. So it would be card access so staff can get in, get to the elevator before kind of walking a little bit further. They can get inside of the building.

Okay. Is there an ATM there or

currently not proposed for an ATM?

Okay. Okay, no, those were curiosity questions more. I think it looks good. And I think the ramp is a great improvement. What was there was it could be treacherous in snow, a little bit of ice.

Yeah, agreed.

So I think it looks good.

I think it's really sensitively handled, so I really have no questions or comments.

Mike, can I ask you another question? Yeah. Is Commerce planning on being a significant occupant of this building in the future? Do you know?

They currently do occupy, I'm not exactly sure how much, but they do. Yeah. Yeah,

go ahead. Give your name. Good looking guys like yourself.

Thank you. I'm Denny Holzer. I'm the vice president of design and construction at Commerce Bank for the entire network. So we occupy 100% of the building, and we moved about 145 people across the street, let's say. And so we've been trying to figure out what to do with our space. And then as we work through workplace categories, which I'm sure you've heard about every other company, some people are hybrid, on-site, remote. Okay. And so we're kind of going through that at the moment for our tower and trying to figure out if we do have any space and what does that future space look like. And so we're working through that right now. And in the future, it's all commerce at the moment.

When you say commerce occupies the building, how many people are in that building?

Oh, let's see. We had probably 550, so minus 140, call it. So we're down below... 550, 450, and right around

400. Let me ask you a crazy question since you're construction. Is there any talk of ever connecting the two buildings? Underground or something like that?

Wow, that's a... I would say that we... kind of just thought about that four or five years ago when we were contemplating this, well, I guess five or six years ago now, when we were contemplated the other tower and that has gone nowhere. So no, we haven't really thought about that anymore at the moment, but what a fantastic idea that would be, right? That would be a long connection. It would be, yes. But back to this entrance right here real quick, we have people parking. old branding iron lot right there and then we have people parking about a block and a half away that we have a lease on for 99 years so they those people as they come up to the north that's where they enter just so you guys understand

i think i kind of zoned out uh third parties lease spaces there

no third party lease spaces down the street about a block and

Parking.

Right,

right. That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

And you're going to move them to here? Those

people, no. We're trying to figure out, we have L1, 2, and 3 inside our building right now, lower levels. We have the branding iron lot. We have the upper deck. And we also have another lot a block and a half away. And so that's where these people enter through when they park. Employees.

Let me ask you a couple more questions about parking since Clayton is evolving to multi-use, residential, commercial, whatever. Golf. Is your parking garage intending to be open to the public at all? Can I rent for an hour? I believe you can do that now. Well, it's hard right now concerning the shape it's in, but in the past you have been.

So when you walk through that new storefront there, you're actually on L1, which is kind of our main level of parking underneath our building. And so off of Forsyth, when you come down into L1, that's where you pay.

Okay, so that's good to hear. The second question is related. So when there is like the St. Louis Art Fair, which is huge in St. Louis and some other things are coming here, visitors to pay for parking on those occasions or not?

I can't speak for the branding iron lot, because it's right there. But the L1, 2, and 3, the lower levels, you have to... The foresight is closed, so you can't enter the garage. And so the

employees...

So to get into the building, we have security guards letting us up one way, the alley just right there to where we can enter real quick. And so we have four or five different security officers just sitting there.

I have nothing else. Thank you. With that, online, David, do you have anything?

I do not. Looks

great. Okay. With that, we do have a staff recommendation to approve the project as submitted. And do we have...

I make a motion, yes, that we approve the project as submitted.

Second. Those in favor? Aye. Those against? So approved. Thank you very much. We are done. Thank you so much. Good luck with your project. With that, Now, I will give Ryan, I guess, gets all the credit because I do this so rarely and I always tend to screw it up. And Ryan decided to give me kind of like something in writing as a cheat sheet. And so if you deserve the credit or you deserve the credit, thank you very, very much. I stole that from somebody. It wasn't you. I don't know who it was. It's so nice to look good without doing the work.

Man, the planning department is getting awfully buttered up today.

With that, is there anything else that we need to talk about? Nothing further from me.

Nothing. Happy St. Patrick's Day.

Yes, yes. I have nothing. David, how's the college going? We're going to

check out the university tomorrow, but today we've just been playing around here in Louisville. It's been fun.

Oh, wow. Okay. Brian? Next meeting is April 7th. Just a heads up, that agenda is looking pretty hefty, so don't make any exciting dinner plans yet.

All I can say is I'm on a

roll. Note that we have on Friday the board discussion with lot coverage. Just a reminder if you guys want to attend that. What is it? It's a um the board of aldermen's just friday discussion session we're going to have a section of that will cover some updates with lot coverage and our consultant is going to be there to answer questions that you might have um the meeting will be recorded so if you're unable to attend you can watch it later but that's it friday at 3 p.m

is that here or it is here

it's online as well so you yeah i believe that though it will be that there's a zoom link that would be posted for it but otherwise it's in here A youngster attorney? Nothing,

sir. With that, we can adjourn. Move to adjourn?

I move to adjourn. Second.

Ayes? Aye. So approved. All right. Thank you. See you all soon. Okay, David. Good luck to you. Yep. Thank you. Bye.