May 6, 2024 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Planning Commission ARB for May 6th. If you have any electronic gadgets, please silence them at this time. Ryan, we'll start with the roll call.

Steve Lichtenfeld? Here. Carolyn Gatiss?

Bridget McAndrew?

Bob Denlow? Helen DeFayt?

Bob Denlo? Helen DeFayt?

Kami Waldman?

Jamie Waldman?

David Gipson? Here.

David Gibson? Here.

We have the minutes from the previous meeting on April 15th. Are there any changes to it? No. Do we have a motion?

All in favor?

Opposed? Okay, thank you. We'll move right into new business and that'll be 8136 University Drive. The applicant is here, I believe. And Ryan?

Just to clarify on that agenda, it should have technically said old business. So this application was presented to the Planning Commission Architecture Review Board on April 15th, but was continued to allow the applicant to consider a series of revisions. The property is located on the south side of University Drive between North Forsyth Boulevard and North Brantwood Boulevard. Property is zoned R2 and is in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The applicant is seeking to demolish the existing two-story home and construct a two-story single-family home with a detached garage. Revisions include the reconfiguration of the rear of the home, including a reduction in the area of the kitchen to make way for a planter bed, and the addition of a rear deck and reconfiguration of HVAC units are proposed to be located under the deck and screened with lattice. The applicant is proposing a ribbon drive with grass in the middle to conform with the lot coverage requirements. Staff has provided additional analysis of design in the architectural staff report, and revisions suggested by staff include removing the ribbons drive within the front yard setbacks that the grass strip will run just the length of the house. With staff's recommendations, the property would still comply with the maximum lot coverage requirements. The revisions include the addition of seven Stonehenge U along the eastern facade. Staff are of the opinion that the Stonehenge U be replaced with trees from the approved tree list for the requirements of section 409, 4090.a.b. As proposed, these trees would conflict with the bays that range in height above the planter bed. Staff are of opinion that the Stonehenge U replacements be located farther from the home to avoid conflicting with the bays on the eastern facade. Staff recommend approval with the following conditions of the site plan review. To ensure the future maintenance and operation of the drywall and the ribbon drive, the applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system and the ribbon drive and shall submit proof of the recording prior to the issuance of the building permit. The stonehenge view shall be replaced with a tree from the approved tree list. The stonehenged view replacement shall be located away from the building facade as to not conflict with the bays above.

Okay, thank you. This is site plan review first. So who would like to come up and speak to it?

Again, my name is Mike Thompson. I'm the architect for the project. As you can see from last time, we went back and made some changes, made the one side of the house a little smaller to provide a little bit more clearance for a car backing out of the driveway, plus some driveway turnaround space. just to lessen the effect of the amount of concrete. We were proposing putting a strip of grass down the middle of the driveway for, you know, along the width of the house I think would be prettier than certainly just a big slab of concrete. So I guess if you had any questions.

I do on the driveway turnaround. I see it's now 17.9 feet from the garage to the planter bed. I wasn't here at the previous meeting. What was it at that point?

It was 17.9 feet to the house. The house would just square it off in the back.

Oh,

okay. And what we were thinking is with a planter bed there, at least the tires can utilize the whole thing without hitting the house. Obviously, if you have 17.9 feet of the house, you can't get your tires that close to the house.

So that's where the kitchen became a little smaller. Right, correct, yes. Now I understand. Okay. And you are okay with the staff recommendations about the grass strip in there? Yes, yes. And the Stonehenge U? Yes. Okay. And I really had nothing else on the site plan. Bridgette?

Bob? I'm just glad you took the time to work it out with your clients and it's good for me. Helen?

Yeah, I'm much happier with the driveway. It gives more wiggle room to get in and out. Is the planter that sort of replaces that piece of kitchen, is that going to be low enough so that the, from the wheels of the car back and overhang it if need be.

Yes. I just intended where the driveway would stop there and it would be a planter. It wouldn't be a raised planter or anything like that. Right.

Yeah. No, that does help. Every inch helps with that. And especially when you get bad weather and you're trying to maneuver. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with the staff recommendation of just doing the grass strip in the driveway along the house, minimizing that because it's a problem to get grass to grow there. And in the wintertime, shoveling becomes an issue, you know you're trying to not kill the grass, but do you know where exactly it is under a blanket of snow and we do get snow once in a while so. Karen Hollweg, Experience has taught me that cars kill brass and snow plows or snow blowers will do the same so minimize it and the deck looks good. Karen Hollweg, done a good job.

Thank you. Dave Kuntz, Jamie.

I'm in agreement with everybody. I'm happy you guys made the house a little bit smaller to give them some outdoor space. I think for the longevity of even future homeowners, that was a good choice.

Carolyn?

I'm sorry, to replace what?

I would need to talk to my landscaper, I guess, as far as that.

Well, Carolyn, we can make that part of the recommendation that it'll have to be approved by staff.

I might comment to that. I have a similar thing at my house, but now mine's 30 inches wide kind of thing. And it's a sidewalk to actually to a three lane street at a stoplight. It certainly gets a lot more salt and snow thrown on it from the snow plows than this. Does it get more sun? Oh yes. Yeah. It, mine has no, because there's overhead power lines has no shade at all kind of thing. So yeah, I was told by a couple of people that, oh, you know, if you see it drying out, you may have to put a little more water on that. I never have had to, but I certainly am willing to, if I would see a dry out, sir.

David? No questions or comments. Any questions from anyone in the audience? Please come up, give us your name and address, and speak into the microphone.

Certainly. Hi, my name is Phil Jarmisch. This is my wife, Kay Reddington. We're at 8137 Westmoreland, and we're the neighbors directly to the rear of the property. And I actually have a question, which I think we may have answered earlier, which is we couldn't tell from the plan what was the distance from the back of the deck to the rear line of the property and whether that conformed to the required setback in the backyard. Okay.

Do we have a dimension?

Mike,

maybe you can answer that.

I believe we're roughly 43 feet to the back of the house and the deck is 12 feet wide. Okay. 31 feet to the to the deck. Yeah. Great.

And I'm assuming that would comply with the required setback. Your property

line? Yes, I believe it does.

Perfect. Okay, well, that was our question about the site. A garage structure of the come to the microphone. We also have a question about the design of the garage. Would that be in the architectural review? Okay, cool. I think that's our question on the site plan. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. Any other comments? No hands up. OK. Hey, Mike, there are four staff recommendations. Are you in agreement with all of them?

The replacing of the tree

and. Yeah, Ryan did read them in the beginning.

Yes, the ones that he read. Yes, we are.

The only thing I would suggest is that the replacement for the Stonehenge U will be approved by staff. So you don't have to come back to us.

Okay.

Do we have a recommendation?

mean, we certainly would. Yes.

So Carolyn, what you're saying is tree protection for all existing trees to remain? Yes.

Okay. I can make a

Go ahead.

Okay. Do we have a second?

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. We'll move on. So let's go back to Ryan for the architectural review.

Since the previous meeting, the applicant has made modifications to the home's exterior. The new home would be constructed primarily of brick painted white with gray stone accents. Windows are proposed to be black with gray stone banding. Stuck aboard painted white is proposed for a portion of the east facade and rear facade. The detached garage would be constructed of matching brick and will feature identical accents to the home. A wood deck with an aluminum railing is proposed at the rear of the home. The trash enclosure is proposed to be a six foot tall white fence made of a composite material. Composite materials are permitted for collecting a wood texture, but the material has not been specified. Staff are of the opinion that the composite should be required to resemble a wood texture. The revised plan includes the reduction of the size of the kitchen, the addition of a rear deck, and the reconfiguration of the driveway to create additional turning room for vehicles attempting to enter and exit the garage. Staff are of the opinion that these revisions address the concerns expressed by the Plan Commission Architectural Review Board at the previous meeting, who result in the property being slightly over the maximum coverage of the lot. With support from staff, the plans were further revised to include a ribbon driveway. Ribbon driveways are typically not permitted unless approved by the architectural review board, and none currently exist on University Drive. The applicant is proposing the ribbon drive to run the full length of the drive from the front property line to the rear of the home. If revised to remove the ribbon from the front yard setback, staff measure the impervious coverage to be 54.7%. Seeing that the ribbon drive would allow the applicant to maintain the revisions to the rear yard and that removal of the front yard section of the ribbon would not result in the property exceeding coverage, staff are of the opinion that the use of the ribbon drive would not change the character of the front setbacks in the neighborhood and result in a better product than if the rear yard revisions were reversed. Staff recommend approval with the following conditions. that the composite screening for the trash enclosure shall reflect a wooden texture, and two, that the ribbon drive shall be revised to eliminate the ribbon from the front yard setback.

Okay, thank you.

We are certainly in agreement to that, yes. It would be a wood texture on the composite. The deck would also be a composite. It will be a darker color. But yeah, the white composite fence and white screening underneath the deck for the mechanical units. Okay, the the new rendering that that I think you all have yes does reflect the colors. The new colors. That the the homeowner desired. Are these the

colors

yes when we submitted before was before they had an owner i'm not sure who exactly pick those out, but so now that we have an owner, and this is, this is the colors that they

want. Like.

I think the front facade of this house is beautiful. It has a historic nature, but also some contemporary feel to it also. The question, the windows have a stone surround. Is that natural stone or man-made

stone? Typically in the past, we've used a natural stone. Good. Natural stone, yes.

Sounds good. And what I... haven't really looked at is the ground floor really only like one step above grade

um well i believe it's one step up to the small front porch uh there and then it's one step so you'd actually be two steps up

I commend you for doing that. We've seen many houses that are raised up much higher, which makes the overall appearance of the house towering over the neighbors. You're a little higher, but certainly not like what we've seen before. So I think it looks very good. I'll make a comment on the left side, I believe it is. The windows seem a little chaotic. There's so many of different sizes. Yeah, the left elevation. It really won't be seen from the street, but there's a lot going on there. Yes, yes, there are a lot of windows there on that side, yes. It seems very different from the three other sides, but it fits. I understand why the bays are there and where they protrude, but it was just a comment. There's no bearing on the roof. But let's go around. Richard?

It would, you'd have two doors. The deck is about four feet off the ground. Okay. You will have to get down about three feet tall in order to get underneath there. It's mechanically, if you've seen many split units, they essentially, they blow sideways instead of blowing up like a normal plane. mechanical unit at 8140 Kingsbury Mike's Michael and for a while Mike Manlin he first did it there kind of thing to just because he didn't want to look at the mechanical unit so he stuck them under his deck so okay yeah which

splits though both or you say

they're similar to that they're they're full-blown mechanical they're like that

size though they don't come out

but right yes they can fit under the deck yeah

Bob? I've seen air conditioning condensers underneath a deck, but I would only say that when they're running, they could be noisy. You know, somebody barbecuing on top of the deck. That's it. um with regard to but it's not a big issue that's

that's the negative

with regard to the design i love the slope line of that protruding uh roof above starting above the front door and i love the accent colors you've used i mean just just terrific um it's an i'm looking at what the buildings look like on either side of it and this is definitely the winner you know in design so uh You did a nice job.

Thank you.

Ellen? I just want to confirm. The bay from the master bedroom closet and shower or tub, that hangs out further than the bay below?

Yes.

Good. I like that.

The fireplace, I believe is a foot out from the brick and that is be two foot four. So it hangs on another foot roughly. Yeah.

Okay. I like that. I'm glad you thought of that detail and just didn't do one kind of strange thing.

Oh, there you go. Yes.

I do have a question on the rear elevation of the garage. You have Balcony like Juliet, balcony, windows and then large windows below.

Yeah, we were essentially matching the front of the garage with the doors. It's just a storage area up there. So it's not like anybody's living there. And of course, it's so short, we couldn't use doors. We have windows that do that. But just for the look of it, I know there's not a lot to look at. There's only five feet to the property line, but just for the overall look of the garage.

Okay, no, it's, I find it unusual because usually that elevation is just blank. That's, nobody will see it. That's kind of the back of things. So, no, I'm fine with it. That's all.

Okay. Jamie? Jamie?

I really like the design too. I like that the front elevation a lot. I like that it's not symmetrical. A lot of these homes now are very symmetrical, so I like what you did there. I did have a question on the garage too. Just what color the garage doors were going to be?

I guess I hadn't really considered that. I would think... I would think we'd go with more of the brick color to it with a black on the frame of the garage.

Okay, so just match the same tone as the brick?

Right, correct.

And then what about the Juliet balcony?

It'd be a black aluminum rail and then a black sash on the windows, yeah. Okay,

great. Yeah, looks good though.

Thanks.

Carolyn?

oh yes actually we have a sample of the of the brick here so

missing. It comes white with a white face on it. Okay. I haven't talked to them, but I'm not sure how they get that white face. If it's baked on. No,

Oh, mostly just because the homeowners want this color.

Okay. Normally, I would agree with you. Absolutely. This certainly sounds reasonable. I know on Mike Mandlin's house at 8140 Kingsbury, anybody knows that? We had the red brick and the stone on it, just like what you're talking about. The people that bought it from him painted it white. I have to say I like it a little bit better painted white, which maybe doesn't make sense, but I do like it.

a fake window. Okay. So yes.

Well, it's a window. It's just a window to an attic. Yes, so

up in the attic, I guess you can look out. Sure.

David? No questions or comments. Mike, a couple other questions. What is the material on the facade that looks like a gray color? On the...

On the vase? On

the fascia. You know, the curved part that comes down, the peak over the roof?

Yes, normally it's an aluminum fascia, aluminum clad.

So it'll be pre-painted? Yes, yes. And what is the floor-to-floor, floor-to-ceiling height on each floor?

It's a 10-foot first floor and a 9-foot second floor.

Great. I think it looks good. You indicated you're in agreement with the staff recommendation for screening the trash enclosure. Yes. And the ribbon drive shall be revised to eliminate the ribbon from the front yard setback. Yes. Okay. I don't think we added anything else, did we? No. Okay, do we have a motion?

Oops. Before we go, come on back.

Phil Jaramission from 8137 Westmoreland. My wife, Kate Reddington. We're once again the neighbors in the rear of the property. We had a request about the design of the rear of the garage. I was glad the questions had come up from the board. We had actually done a review of garages in the neighborhood and how the neighbors behind them, how their backyards felt. And there are both garages that have windows on the second story and garages that don't. Almost all of them are ornamental, just like this one, as opposed to having living spaces. And it was our opinion that both the landscaping and the privacy in the feel of the backyards were nicer when the second story was just a solid facade and did not have a window and our request was that um the design the plan be changed uh so that the second story would just be a solid facade as opposed to having a window in it in the garage second story of the garage

but you have no problem with the First level window in the garage.

Yes, because it's near a fence line, etc. We understand that actually has practical value of bringing light into the garage as they're driving in, but it's not a habitable space on the second floor. It's just an ornamental window and having it at that height peering down. When we looked at other backyards in the neighborhood, makes it more difficult to landscape against the facade and changes the feeling of privacy or just even though it's a fake window looking down on people's backyards. Since he had

Please come up to the

The garage is only five feet from our fence line, and it's above the fence line. It looks directly down into our backyard, and it clearly creates a feeling of a lack of privacy when there's a window that's that close looking down into our... So, and aesthetically, the other houses in the neighborhood with it, we felt looked better, but it would materially affect our sense of privacy.

I could certainly understand that if it were an occupied space. But I think we understand it's a storage loss.

Yes, it's just storage. I'd just say that I'm sure Mike Malin would be fine with not doing the window up there. We initially just put it on just to have it decorated up like the front of the garage is. But if you prefer to not have it, that one, like I said, it wouldn't affect the light in the actual garage. It is just a storage area up there. We're the only

people that see it anyway. And it would be cheaper for the owners.

We don't worry about

that.

Well, Mike, if you're saying It could be deleted with no problem. I guess to be neighborly, that would be the right thing to do.

Yes, we could delete it and I would think we'd probably just leave the trim like it is on the back there so it wouldn't have some character to it. Could you

We could do a vent with maybe shutters on either side of it. Yeah. something like that

that's possible

vents of course all around right so i mean i don'

Our preference would be a more solid facade. Certainly, if I can understand the usual small events, but to put shutters around that we have the least ornamentation on event if it was required.

If I could say something, I could respect what you're saying. But if I was in your house, aesthetically, I think I'd like to look at a window with the black railings there than just a blank wall.

But when there's a window, it never has the same beautiful effect of the green again.

Whatever you guys, whatever the owner would like to do, I respect what you say. But it's from my perspective, it's your call.

I would go back to, I mean, I would check with the owners. I seriously doubt they would have any problem with whether or not there's a window from their storage area on the back of the garage because, of course, there's already one to the front of the garage. So I'm sure they would be OK with it either way.

Thank you. I would defer to you speaking with the owner. I have no problem with or without that upper level window on the backside of the garage. Okay. If there's any disagreement, we can discuss that further. Okay. Were there any other hands up? No.

Any other questions or comments? If we have the staff recommendations that you agree to, do we have a motion?

No. No, we're not. We're going to leave that up to the architect and the owner.

Second. All in favor?

And will you be going for a building permit?

As soon as I get the drawings done. I'm sure I'm going to get to ask that. If not tonight, first thing tomorrow morning. So yes.

Fair enough. Well, it's a good-looking house. Hope the new owners will enjoy it. And if they're new to Clayton, we welcome them.

Thank

you.

Okay.

Thank you, everyone. That's the end of the formal meeting. Kami, any comments?

Nothing further.

Helen?

Nothing.

Bob? Nothing. Bridget?

Carolyn?

We'll find out.

David?

Nothing tonight.

Okay, Ryan?

There's a few projects rolling around out there, but nothing for sure for the next meeting. Depends on whether they get the stuff back to us that we need.

That really didn't tell us much. No.

Thank you. Ana? I mean, out of the ones that could, there isn't anything. We don't have any other planning developments or anything like that in the works, so just smaller stuff.

If I could just say, I won't be here for the next two hearings. I'll be out of the country.

Yeah, the only thing that we have coming up that you'll miss is the comprehensive plan adoption.

Yeah, I... Do we have a schedule on that?

Yep, you'll be getting a draft probably tomorrow.

great.

trip? The Netherlands, Belgium and London.

Yes.

Did she come back?

Those are such wonderful places.

be in San Francisco in France.

at this point, the revised draft is based on, so we sent out the original draft to the board and to this committee and to the steering committee. We've made revised changes based on any comments we received from anybody, including the public as well. So at this point there haven't been, other than a couple of the land use changes, there haven't been any substantial comments. So unless all of a sudden you all have a bunch of comments that you haven't been voicing earlier in the process, I don't anticipate anything really significant changing.

Yeah, I would, if you have more substantial comments, would love to give the consultant a heads up to those coming and not just voicing them in the middle of the meeting because otherwise we're prepared to have it presented to you for adoption. Okay. Thanks.

Any other comments? No? Then we're adjourned. Thank you, everyone.