April 15, 2024 — Meeting Transcript

Richard McAndrew.

Carolyn Gatiss.

Bob Denlow. Here. Helen DiFate.

Bob Denlo. Here. Ellen DeFayette.

Kami Waldman.

Amy Waldman.

David Gipson. Here.

David Gibson. Here.

I'll make a motion to approve

Second.

The subject property is located in the northeast corner of Shirley and Cromwell in Widown Forest. Property is zoned R2 and is developed with a one and a half story single family home. Property's location on a corner results in street frontage on both the west and south sides. The home's primary front yard and entry faces Shirley, and the basement and garage has access via Cardinal Drive. Per section 405-1900A1B, where lots have double frontages or on corner lots, the required front yard setback provision shall be provided on both streets. The applicant is seeking approval to replace a four-foot-tall wood picket fence in the front yard along Shirley Drive. The proposed fence is identical to that of the existing fence in location, material, and style. Properties in Whiteown Forest neighborhood use a variety of techniques to address screening on cornered lots, including a combination of landscaping and fencing. Fences are mostly wood and range from four to six feet in height. Staff are of the opinion that the proposal is likely to result in a minimal visual impact due to the similarity of the proposed fence to the existing fence and the use of wood fences on corner lots nearby. Staff recommend approval is submitted.

The property owner did reach out to me earlier and said that they would try to be on Zoom this

didn't see any issues with it either.

No problem.

No comments. Yeah, no issues with

take a motion i'll make a motion to approve as submitted

second

all those in favor

Site is located on the east side of Hanley between Colorado Avenue and Crandall Plaza. Property has a zoning designation of high-density commercial and is in the Clayton Plaza Overlay District. Property is currently operating as Waterway Gas and Wash Company. The applicant is seeking approval to add a 14 square foot window sign to the eastern facade facing handling. The current sign composition of the site was approved in November of 2020 by the Architectural Reward when the site was renovated. A chart provided in the staff report identifies the sign composition. At the time of the approval, the then applicant proposed the elimination of a sign on the Western facade of the structure to permit a blade sign that exceeds the size limit for blade signs and ARB approved that sign. The new sign was not proposed as part of the original submission although it's on the same facade as the previous sign. The new sign is smaller and is proposed on the window rather than the roof line of the older sign that was removed. Although the sign would be facing Hanley, it would not be easily visible to those traveling along Hanley as the road runs north to south and the sign faces west. Directly across the road is an office tower with ground floor facade consisting of a walled parking garage. The elevated position of the offices across the street combined with the sign being under an awning reduces its visibility to those in the offices, and the sign would most likely be noticed by individuals exiting the parking garage across the street or by pedestrians. Given that the car wash will not typically attract pedestrian activity, the sign is not likely to be used for wayfinding by pedestrians walking on Hanley. Given that the sign meets the requirements for new window signs and has a lesser visual impact than the sign previously rejected by ARB and the limited visibility of the new location, staff are of the opinion that the sign would have a minimal visual impact and recommend approving to submit it.

Well, I'm Mike Goldman. I'm vice president and general counsel of Waterway Gas and Wash. And as Ryan pointed out, it's a pretty simple sign. The wall currently... was not as we initially brought in the plan and as the plan developed. And frankly, it just looks empty. So it is recessed. It's not on the window. It's about two and a half or three feet in off the window. We think it just sort of completes the picture a little bit there. So happy to answer any questions, but I think it's a pretty simple sign.

Carolyn? I did not have any comments. No comment. That

looks

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted.

Second.

So this first staff report that I will summarize is just for the site plan review. Subject property is located on the south side of Forest Ridge Place. The site is zoned R1 and is vacant aside from a garage referred to as the carriage house. The proposed scope consists of the construction of a new single family home and renovation of the garage. A detailed site plan review analysis may be found in the staff report, and I'll summarize some of those key points. The site is surrounded by R1 lots, and it meets the height setback and coverage requirements for the district. HVAC units would be located on the southeast side of the home and screened by a combination of landscaping and fencing. Trash would be stored in the adjacent garage. Impervious coverage would increase from 11.42 to 13.46%. Stormwater runoff would increase from 0.162 cubic feet per second to 2.186 cubic feet per second. Downspouts would connect to a flow well with a pop-up emitter. Existing canopy coverage is 67,591 square feet with 9,798 square feet to be removed. The plan proposes adding 2,750 square feet of canopy coverage, which is 7,472 square feet more than the replacement requirements. The plan also exceeds the native species requirement with 80% native proposed. Staff wrap the opinion that the project meets the requirements of site plan review and recommend approval with the condition that the applicant record a deed restriction noting the location maintenance requirements of the flow well system and shall submit proof of that recording prior to issuance of a building permit.

Good evening. My name is Jeff Kirschman. I'm an attorney here on behalf of Richard and Josephine Weil, who are the owners of the lot at number four, Forest Ridge. We have with me Dick and Josephine Weil and Laurent Hedquist and James Timberlake from the architectural firm Kiernan Timberlake. And our civil engineer, Doug Leipziger, all available to answer any questions. We have a sort of an overarching presentation. I don't know how you wanna handle that in terms of the three separate hearings.

Well, I think that's what I would do if it's all right with the commission. I'm just going to give you a little bit of background on the project, then have the architects and the engineers speak. So this Forest Ridge is an interesting little enclave in Clayton. It's got six lots. One of them, only one of them doesn't have a house on it. And that's the lot we're talking about. It had a house. It was probably 100 years old, torn down, I believe, in 2016, purchased by Dick and Josephine in 2019. There was a guy who bought it, tore the house down, was intending to build a new house in that he would live in with his new bride. That didn't go so well. And a couple of years later, he put it on the market. And Dick and Josephine, who live right next door at number three Forest Ridge, where they've been for the last, I think, 38 years, bought the house in 2019 and considered for a long time and exactly what to do with the lot. Number four, the empty lot is heavily landscaped. While the main house was torn down, there's a carriage house garage deep in the back of the corner of the lot that was not torn down. That too, probably 100 years old. Maybe it had some work done through the years, but maybe not. It's in pretty bad shape. So the Wiles have decided that they wanted to build a new house on this lot and to renovate the carriage house in a manner that would be consistent with the new house. Kiernan and Timberlake are familiar with St. Louis. They did the East End addition to Washington University, so they've got a fair amount of experience with are neighborhoods in Clayton and the style in which houses are built here. So with that, let me just introduce Laurent Edquist from the architecture firm and have him explain to you a little more about the project.

if anyone actually wants me to hand them to them. That's why I brought them loose because it would work out that well. So... Okay, thank you very much. Thanks for having us today to talk about this project. So what I'll do is I'll give what I hope to be a fairly brief introduction to the project, both just generally in terms of the architectural principles, the site planning principles, planting and briefly talk about the materials. And then I'll hand it over to Doug for any specific questions. site planning questions that you all might have before I come back to discuss the architecture. So as we all know, this is Forest Ridge Place, generally located southwest of Y-Down at Big Bend. The four up there indicates the general location of the property on the south side of Fort's Ridge Place. Zoning in and zooming in just a little bit more into the property. Current occupants, Richard and Josephine, live at number three. Four, as Jeff mentioned, the actual location of number four up there, the placement of the four icon is where the original house stood. The current driveway was the original driveway for the house, and you can see the driveway that exists that currently leads down to the southwest corner of the property, which is where the original Karish house currently sits. To the east is number five, and then generally to the northeast is number six. Street view of the property. So this is a view towards the property looking south. The east, I should say the west end entry of the driveway is on page right, and then just off of page left would be the east end entry of the circular driveway. Way back in the view, you can just get a glimpse of the dormers of the carriage house. So there's a fairly significant gray drop from the sidewalk and the street down to that back end corner where the carriage house currently sits. A few more contextual photographs of the project, kind of moving from kind of the frontispiece of the property. The east driveway entry, which is the current curb cut. The driveway is currently macadam, blacktop. And the sidewalks and the curb cuts and the entry drives are macadam. Exposed aggregate, the view west in that middle upper row with a view of number three in the background showing some of the mature trees in the foreground of the property. And then finally the west driveway entry from Forest Ridge Place. The three lower hand rows, sorry, images in the lower hand row generally show a progressive series of photographs as you descend the driveway, the existing driveway down towards the existing carriage house. Existing carriage house is comprises a brick first floor and then an upper story with the existing dormers. And you can see the existing wood deck that was added at some point in the not too recent past. So zooming back out just a little bit more contextually, on the left-hand side, the existing house at Three Forest Ridge Place, Tudor Revival House, Five Forest Ridge Place, Georgian and then finally Six Forest Ridge Place at the opposite end of the street as well. So just giving you a general understanding of the south side of Forest Ridge and the overall streetscape in that location. and then further context generally showing that the proposed house sits roughly equidistant between number three and number five. site plan generally takes advantage of the existing driveway to form an entry to a new house. houses roughly 1800 square feet with an attached or semi detached semi attached garage depending on how you want to define it to the West. And then a real line driveway that takes you down to the existing carriage house to be renovated subject to a different conversation. Generally idea is to cite this House within the landscape, hence its lower slung proportions taking advantage of the existing landscape and existing grade. The idea is this really sits within the current assemblage of landscape trees and plantings that have already been in place for a number of years on this property. And of course, the pool and the terrace behind the street completely covered by the new house. Plan-wise, the program is fairly modest. A kitchen, a single bathroom, a sleeping area, dining area, living area. And then you can see the garage to the west and an access way, which you can see in the top northeast corner of the terrace, which leads down to a basement but also provides access to a changing room on the exterior. The pool is 25 yards in length, a full lap pool, so 75 feet with a couple of dimensions, 10 feet at its narrowest end all the way to 16 feet, I should say, at the easternmost end. Materials, we're going for a relatively simple, calm palette of materials. As you can see right in front of me, the primary component of the exterior facade is this forest green glazed brick supplemented by exterior metals of both kind of the bronzish, dark gray bronzish material and then also an exterior metal that would be painted to match the green brick. uh the terrace stone is a type of blue stone um which you can see right in front of me and then any exterior wood structure um will be a wood finish that we were still working on just in terms of that overall appearance but suffice it to say we'll have some exposed wood on the exterior but the majority of the exterior palette is that dark forest green, forest green paint and then a darkish bronze gray really intended to kind of knock that overall architectural impact into the landscape. Plantings will continuously be developed, but we've worked with the wilds landscaper, gardener, the arborist as well, just in terms of the ground cover and the trees themselves to go obviously for as many native species as possible. Shade tolerant species as well, given the overshading of many of the mature trees on that site. I'm moving through the kind of higher hedge conditions as well. And then finally, the larger replacement trees on the site. So it will be five new trees on the site kind of scattered around the general property. Finally, just working through a series of views here. So this is the front elevation from the sidewalk showing the new gate that leads into the rear of the property flanked by the garage which is mostly concealed on the right-hand side by the forest green brick. The intent obviously in terms of the living quarters is to maximize exposure to daylight and natural light And then further on as you move towards the east, the privacy screening wall. So the intent here is to create a garden wall, if you will, concealing some of the activities in the background, but really affording the occupants as much access to daylight and views both towards the street, frankly, but also towards the south of the property. An alternative view here from the approach from the West driveway showing the garage the clear story windows, which are roughly three feet in height. And then, as you move towards the eastern end of the property the clear side of the windows are roughly eight feet in height in this few sitting on approximately a four foot so. The eastern view beyond, which is the on the terrorists. the view to the gate, which would still be under design, but the intent is that would be some sort of laser cut gate, a floral pattern, an organic pattern that begins to really compensate and work within the palette of plantings that we've selected. and then zooming on down towards the hill, showing the repurposed realigned driveway that leads down to the renovated carriage house. The intent with the carriage house is to match as much as possible the intent and the characteristics of the new property at the top of the hill. So that would include a new paint on the existing brick, new windows, painting of the existing garage door, and a new dark roof. Finally, that view as well. That sums up kind of the overall introduction to the project. So I think now we can get back to the site planning portion. So any technical questions that you might have, I'll hand it over to Doug for that.

Thanks, Lauren. Good evening. As Lauren described, the site itself is pretty landscaped already. The building was situated to avoid as much as possible impact to existing trees. Stormwater drains from the northeast area towards the southwest for the most part. As far as stormwater runoff. We're using a drywall system to handle the increase in flow from the new house, and that is located in the rear of the house property area. And there's also, this wasn't taken into account, but to provide additional sustainable features on the house that they're looking at potentially doing green roof and the pavement's going to be like a grass pave so it's not going to be quite as i mean i'm showing it as an impervious surface now but it's really going to be somewhat pervious um

part i'm showing it there's like a more conservative as if it's all one paved driveway, which it is, but it has holes in it for the grass pave. So water is not going to run off of it as quickly as you might for a normal driveway. So really, even though I didn't take that into account because I wanted to make sure the drywall itself would provide more than enough storage for the stormwater, but there's additional features that are going to likely be implemented.

I think right now the plan is for it to happen, but I'm not 100% sure if it will.

don't think it's visible, right?

Yeah. Ariel.

No, unless you guys have questions.

no i think it looks great um i have experienced that grass pavers can get clogged and have some issues so it might end up being that you would do sand or something over time

yeah, I think we haven't a hundred percent decided what it's going to be, but that's what the intent is right now.

Start that way and see what happens. I know that at Missouri botanical garden, they can't even keep up with it. And that's Missouri botanical gardens. If anybody's going to keep up with it, it would be them. So, but. The idea there is great sustainability-wise.

It plays a sustainability role, but it also adds to the idea of just removing black stripe, you know, this dark stripe of pavement, again, further kind of incorporating the property into the landscape.

Yeah, no, I think you couldn't design anything that would fit better into a landscape than this building and the site plan. I kind of wish that the landscape plan wasn't just a list in a hatch, but I think you're still developing, and it is away from the road anyway, so it's up to you. And I know the Weil family, and I know the quality that will happen here, so... I don't think I had, oh, tree protection fencing. You'll have that around the entire construction area. Excellent. Okay. That was all I had.

have any concerns and I echo Carolyn's comments about the owners. They're great people and there's no issue about that. And But the 800-pound gorilla in the room is basically this. Why are we building such a small house when everything around it is so much bigger?

Are we

addressing that?

the architecture? We can wait on that one. But just so you know, that's just what's lingering in my mind. And what otherwise is lingering in my mind, have other owners made any comments about that to you? That's all. I'll pass.

As far as the site plan goes, you've answered all my questions. And I would say ditto to what Carolyn said about the grass pavers. They're really a challenge. But sand works. That's it. Looks good. Yeah, I have no issues with the site plan, but

it looks really good.

My name is Alan Kalb. I live at 5 Forest Ridge, where I have been a resident for almost 38 years. uh there's a great part of me that says if you own something like a piece of property you ought to be able to do whatever you want with it but if everyone agreed with that we wouldn't need an architectural review board all the houses currently existing in forest ridge Are at least 6000 square feet in size. And as senior trustee i've talked spoken since i've got this agenda spoken with all the other residents of the bridge and I told them, I would not quote them or speak specifically for them, but I will tell you that each of them mentioned that whatever is done. and we didn't know until today what's proposed. Whatever is done should be done consistent with Forest Ridge, which is multiple story, large houses, something that's in keeping with the neighborhood. Now subject of in keeping with the has nothing to do with the cost of a house or the beauty of a house. And as you all know, and as I know from 38 years as being her neighbor, Josephine and Dick do not do anything that isn't beautiful and well thought out. But I would say that a scale model of the Taj Mahal would be beautiful and well thought-out but totally inappropriate for that place. that lot. And I'm thinking that an 18 square foot, single family house might be totally inappropriate and out of place, and might therefore have an impact on the other lots, the value of the other lots in the subdivision. Thank you.

I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation.

Second.

All those in favor?

Forest Ridge is a smaller subdivision in Clayton with only six lots and five homes. Surrounding homes range in height from one and a half to two and a half stories and were constructed between 1909 and 1921. They comprise of brick with stone or stucco and contain a variety of surrounding patios and landscaping. Driveways vary in configuration and material. Large trees provide a canopy over much of the neighborhood, creating a forest-like environment. The subject property previously included a home that was constructed in 1911 that was demolished in 2016. The carriage house later converted to a garage remains. The proposed home is considerably less prominent than existing homes and does have a more modern design. It would be a single-story construction of brick and would retain much of the existing canopy coverage on site. The house would measure 1,889 square feet while surrounding homes exceed 4 or 8,000 square feet. The character of the home incorporates a greater use of straight lines, right angles and window walls while surrounding homes incorporate traditional characteristics of Tudor, Georgian or other traditional Clayton architecture. The exterior would be a dark green brick with bronze windows. The brick exterior would extend to a wall surrounding a pool and loose stone patio at the rear of the home. The existing driveway would be demolished, shift slightly in location, would be constructed of grass pavers. The carriage house would remain but would be renovated to include a second level accessory dwelling unit, referred to as an ADU. The exterior would be forced green with a bronze roof and windows. Landscaping is proposed throughout the property. Although the new home would be smaller than surrounding homes and made different architectural style, staff are of the opinion that the reduced massing and retention of most existing landscaping will result in a minimal visual impact. The home differs from those nearby, but is designed to blend with the natural environment. The siding height and material and colors will create a striking building that has a subtle impacts to the trees and landscaping on the site. Staff are of the opinion that the structure would contribute to the forest-like environment of Forest Ridge would have a minimal visual impact. Staff recommend approval is submitted.

I would simply just repeat my opening statements and introduction about the house. I think I'm ready for any comments or questions that have to do with the architecture of the project. I can certainly flip back to any views, images, discussion of the materials that anyone would like to discuss.

don't know if I can address that. And we talked about this. We considered our choices. Sort of the obvious choice, first of all, you cannot replicate. the houses that are in Forest Ridge now. Even if you had an unlimited budget, You can't build the kind of houses that are there now. So if you want to build a big house because the other houses in Forest Ridge are big, you end up with a McMansion. We didn't think that was in keeping with the neighborhood. The sizing might have been in keeping with the but the appearance and the integration into the neighborhood wouldn't fit. And the wilds are very... committed to a heavily landscaped lot. This lot, it's like a park. There's trees everywhere. Their own house next door has a Bob Cassidy designed reflecting pond lake. I'm not sure what you want to call it, but it is I don't know if you all have seen the back of their house, but it's spectacular. And so we thought about, OK, what makes sense here in addition to what fits with their lifestyle? They wanted something on one floor. And it didn't make sense to do something 6,000 square feet. It just didn't make sense. This isn't 1911 when the subdivision was built. It's 100 years later. And so the houses that you're seeing built in some circumstances are different in size. Does that mean it's inappropriate? Not at all. And we've got photographs of other different houses that one might argue don't fit the existing architecture of those subdivisions throughout Clayton. So this is nothing new for Clayton. And you all probably know that better than we do, seeing the different proposals. Is it smaller? Yes. But does it make sense? We think it does. So that's our thinking. You know, we had a certain number of options and we felt and we feel that this is the best option for this lot. It's going to be a spectacular house and it's going to integrate into the lot beautifully. So we're proud of what the architects have come up with, and we think the city's going to like

Did you build in any kind of contingency within the design that it could expand via the next owner? No.

I don't know if we specifically built in any contingency, but that has certainly been kind of in the back of our minds as we're talking through the structure. Whether whether that expansion is a horizontal expansion or a vertical expansion is something we'd have to explore further.

I could see horizontal actually at your plans that it could start creeping a little bit.

Certainly. You know, of course, the siding of the house is very much predicated on preserving as many trees as possible, especially the three large trees at the southern, what I'd call the extensive, the terrace and the garage. So not getting into it a little bit deeper, it would have to take some craft and some care.

Oh, yeah, sure. Just addressing the the comments about value of um it would bring down property value i don't think that is even remotely true i think given um the pedigree of the architecture firm it's going to increase the value of the homes around it so i completely disagree with that this is art and you can't you know and i understand the downsizing idea One level, make it simple, less to take care of, less to all of that. I love it. So I really didn't have any other comments on it.

I don't think we judge a house by what's next door necessarily. I think the design is brilliant. I do. I love that. I really do. I like the idea of all the greenery, making it part of a forest walk to get to this building. I'm still a little concerned, however, uh, to build an 1800 square foot home next to a 6,000 square foot and 8,000 square foot home. That's somehow, um, It could have maybe an adverse impact. I agree with Carolyn somewhat. I don't think it's going to have much in part because the nature of the subdivision is such that these are very large lots. They're almost each self-contained. You don't have to know what's next door to really appreciate what is in front of you. I think it's very creative. I don't know anything about the architecture pedigree, but the result is terrific in that sense. I do have lingering concerns about the size, however. I can understand what the neighbors feel their concern, but it's not the design. You know, there are a lot of places where there are great modern designs that really make the neighborhood even better. more significant, more interesting, more attractive because of that diversity. I mean, God forbid every... We don't live in West County where every house looks the same with track housing. I kinda like that. I don't think it's gonna take away from the adjoining homes. I really don't. But I think I'm still scratching my head on why so small? in a subdivision where the homes are quite large. And you say, well, because we didn't add a second floor. I get that. I mean, but I think in the end, I will support it. But I have that lingering concern.

I love it. normally the context it being contemporary and the other adjacent somewhat remote though houses being so much larger and more traditional in the architecture that this would bother me being so different but given its size the sighting The choice of materials, I think it'll be a plus for the neighborhood. So I like it. I relate to the 1,800 square feet. Why build more if you don't need it? And being an architect, I see the possibility for adding here, going up, out, different things. And there's certainly enough room on the site, but I'm looking forward to seeing it. It'll be hard through the trees.

But we're looking forward to it too. Thanks.

Pardon?

We're looking forward to seeing that as well.

I think it's beautiful. Also, I think it works really well in the context of the property. I am in agreement where I feel it's a little in the context of The Neighborhood and the Six Slots. I do think it's out of place. Um, and I'm curious like why, um, you know, you have this fairly modern house and then you decided to keep the carriage house and not do really anything with that. And just like how it kind of relates kind of to the overall property. Um, the size is a little hard because as Bridget mentioned, we kind of fought tooth and nail to downsize a house that was out of context in an overall neighborhood that it was too big for the neighborhood. Um, And so this, I do understand the neighbor's concern with that. Now, I don't, I have no idea if it's going to drop, you know, property value or what. But, you know, and I do appreciate the, are the owners planning to live here? And, you know, like, I don't. It is what Bob was saying. It's kind of a conundrum. Like, it's an interesting conundrum. I do think the house is beautiful. But can you speak to, like, why, like, the carriage house, you're not touching the hat?

I think out of respect of trying to keep as much of the existing history of the site in place as well. There's a recognition that the Carriage House in its current state actually serves a function for the Wiles, and we would like it to continue to serve that function. We as architects, I can say at least for myself, are not advocates for tearing things down that shouldn't be torn down if they could continue to serve a purpose. And in this case, the structure of the bones of that Jason carriage house or good shape and. We hope that again it continues to serve its purpose, the same you know I think the same way that. Had the original House been on this side i'm not sure we would have advocated for tearing down the House, but the fact is, is that the House was torn down prior to our Commission on this project and. It only makes sense to preserve as much of the landscape and to minimize disturbance on this side as possible. While trying to modernize it, bring it into a modern purpose that the wilds can use, and then hopefully with the proposed architectural treatments, bring it at least in line and in conversation with the house at the top of the hill.

I don't have any additional comments.

Sure. We invited every neighbor over to look at a model in this more or less the same presentation. Some came, some didn't. Nobody has expressed to us any opposition to this. What you and I heard tonight is the first time I've heard that comment from any of the neighbors, any of the trustees.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted.

Aye.

motion? Carolyn's motion said with staff recommendation.

Project scope includes the renovation of the carriage house to contain an accessory dwelling unit, or ADU. The ADU would be 588 square feet and is proposed to be occupied by guests or a domestic employee. ADUs are permitted in the R1 district up to 2,000 square feet. The carriage house is located at the rear of the property and is proposed to renovated. Staff are of the opinion that there is adequate parking and that the ADU would be adequately screened from the street. Staff are of the opinion that the proposal meets the requirements contained in the regulations governing ADUs and recommend that the board recommend approval with the following conditions. One, that all conditions of Chapter 405, Article 2, Section 405.330 shall be adhered to. That the applicant shall record a deed restriction pursuant to Item 3 under criteria for review with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds Office and submit proof that required deed restriction to the city prior to the issuance of a building permit.

understand

I'll make a motion to approve with the two staff recommendations

second

all those in favor aye

thank you very much thanks everybody that close should i close this stuff okay

Subject property is located on the east side of Francis Place between Roxbury Drive and Halifax Drive. Property is zoned R4 and is within the Clayshire Urban Design District and has developed a single family home. Property was approved for a residential addition in May of 2021 and commenced construction in the following months. Construction of the previously approved project began with the demolition of the previous garage but was abandoned and the property was eventually sold to the current owner. The applicant is proposing a single story residential addition. The full analysis of site plan review can be found in the staff report and I'll provide some of those key points. R4 properties nearby typically contain multifamily, whereas this lot contains a single-family home. Properties to the south are R4, while properties to the north are R2 and contain single-family homes. HVAC is proposed at the rear of the structure adjacent to the basement access. Trash would be stored within a wooden enclosure adjacent to the garage. Impervious coverage would increase to 38.7%. Proposed stormwater runoff would increase by 0.032 cubic feet per second to 0.664. Downspouts would connect to a flow well with a pop-up emitter. No landscaping plan was required as part of this scope, but most landscaping is proposed to remain. As proposed, the project meets the height setback and coverage requirements of the R4 district. Staff are going to recommend approval with the condition that a tree protection plan be provided as part of the building permit.

I don't have any additional comments.

Oh, Rich Mayfield.

Sorry. I don't really have any additional comments to make. I did notice about the tree protection plan. We did a job in Kirkwood years back where we had to put some T-posts and orange fence around the trees at a specific radius, which should be no problem to do, but... It mentions Article XXX. Is that some specific requirements that you guys

have? We can provide you with the detail of it, but it's pretty much what you've described. Okay.

I am the owner, yes.

We bought it last July. Okay.

No. Okay. I guess they put it up for sale and we bought it middle of July and have been working on the plans ever since.

Yeah, we should have the same.

none none no comment

Should we clarify the XXS X for the vote?

that's just the code of our adopted landscape and tree regulations.

Yes, it really is. I thought it was a placeholder. Nope. So did I

at first.

Never mind. I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation. Second.

I do have one more comment on the site plan. I don't know if this would fall under site plan or architectural review, but my engineer told me we have around 450 square feet available for more impervious cover. Would there be any objection to, I know it's not located on the site plan, but it would be right off the steps, a 12 by 16 patio?

So amendments that are within the allowed impervious coverage, you can apply for that as approval as part of your building permit.

Okay. Yep. All right. Thank you.

The surrounding area consists of a mix of single family and multifamily homes. Homes to the north are mainly single family brick with front-loading garages, while those to the south are primarily two-story multifamily structures with below-grade parking. Proposed addition would be a single story on the south side and would include expanded living space and a front-loading garage. Although the Clayshire Urban Design District encourages rear or detached garages, the proposed front-loading garage aligns with the prevalent neighborhood style and uses an existing driveway constructed for the addition that was never completed. The addition's design and materials include brick veneer and hardy board matching that of the existing structure. A new exposed aggregate walkway is proposed to connect the driveway to the front entry. Staff are of the opinion that the addition is compatible with the existing structure and surrounding area. Staff recommend approval as submitted.

We do have some photos of, we're planning on slightly changing the color scheme of the house. Right now it's white trim with a bluish gray color. We're looking at going for a white or slightly off-white with a black trim and windows. And I had one more comment. I brought it up to my architect recently, and it was based on the front elevation. I don't know if you guys have a picture of that from the submitted plans. There it is. From the front on the windows, if you go from the left to the right, it's got the double-double hung. Then it's got the three-light slider. Then it's got another double hung and then a single double hung, and then you get to the garage door. It would drastically help our interior layout if we could make in between the front door and the garage those single hung windows and close off. If you're looking at that double one just to the right of the door, if we could close off the left one, then it would be double the three light two single hung equally spaced apart, and then the garage door. I

No, you can approve that tonight.

additional comments.

I like the white.

What material are the windows?

I was going to use vinyl outside and inside, black on the outside, white on the inside.

Are they would windows clad or

I

know

I hadn't it would be true vinyl, but we don't have them purchased yet but. that's the most cost effective option for us

but. I don't believe we allow vinyl

okay

they could be wood vinyl clad or metal clad

okay.

Otherwise, I like the black and white. I think that'll work great.

Okay.

Yeah, I think it looks good. I don't mind switching over the windows either.

I'll make a motion to approve with the recommendation that the vinyl windows be wood and vinyl clad.

Okay.

As opposed to 100% vinyl. Second.

So I, yeah, so you can clarify as described.

also let's make it a number two that the double hung windows would

John Potter, carolyn on number one rather than calling out the specific type can we just say that it's approved materials that way he can

okay. John Potter,

chop different options

alright so number one revision. John Potter, make a recommendation that the vinyl windows. John Potter, be changed into approved material

okay. Second.

All those in favor?

Thank you. You guys can keep it. We have copies. You're

Subject property is located on the south side of University Drive between North Forsyth Boulevard and North Brentwood Boulevard. The property is zoned R2 and is in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The property is currently developed with a two-story single family home with a front entry garage. The applicant is seeking to demolish the existing home to construct a two-story, single family home with an attached garage. The property is surrounded by R2 lots containing two-story single-family homes. HVAC units are proposed to be at the rear of the home adjacent to the entry steps. Trash is proposed adjacent to the garage. Both the HVAC and trash enclosures are proposed to be vinyl. Vinyl is not a permitted material and is addressed further in the architectural staff report. Coverage is proposed to increase from 34% to 54.5%. New homes in Clayton Gardens often include a variety of exterior gathering spaces such as porches, decks or patios. Additionally, staff have observed a pattern of increasing applications pertaining to new decks, patios, pools and other exterior renovations to increase the size of outdoor gathering and seating in recent years. As proposed, the property is just below the maximum allowed 55% coverage and contains no exterior gathering space. It is not a requirement to include the exterior gathering space. However, no such would be permitted to be constructed without the approval of a variance by the Board of Adjustment or approval of alternative compliance by the Planning Commission. This observation was provided as a review comment to the applicant. Given the frequency of the applications for new exterior gathering spaces, staff are of the opinion that the applicant should consider revisions to include such a space rather than create conditions in which an applicant would need to demonstrate hardship or exceptional circumstance to create such a space. Stormwater runoff is proposed to increase 0.06 cubic feet per second to 0.9 cubic feet per second. Downspouts would discharge to a drywall with a pop-up emitter. The existing driveway on the east side of the property would be removed and relocated to the west side of the property. Staff are of the opinion that apart from these items referred to in the architectural review staff report, the proposal meets the criteria for site plan review. Staff recommend approval with the condition that the applicant shall record a deed restriction noting the location and maintenance requirements of the drywall system and shall submit proof of the recording prior to the issuance of a building permit.

My name is Mike Thompson. I'm Thompson Design Group, the architect for the job. As just comment to what was said there, I apologize. It was mistakenly put on the plan that we were going to use vinyl fencing for that. We would use a composite fence for that, for the fencing. Otherwise, we don't have a problem, of course, all with the deeding for the drywall system. Are there any questions?

The home is sold, so the future occupants had the option of downsizing the home to create more outdoor space, and they chose not to. This is what they would like to do.

Are the neighbors just to the rear of the property on Westmoreland Avenue? 8137 Westmoreland. Okay, great. As you may know, for technical reasons, none of the plans were available to review. Actually, we're going to start some questions. First, we couldn't tell whether or not the rear setback, what the rear setback would be on the property. So we kind of had a question on that. And we didn't know what protections were going to be during construction permitted, were going to be allowed or required for the fence at the rear of the property. And there are three trees at the rear of property. We were wondering if those trees were surviving, what protections were allowed And those were certainly our questions about the site. And also

the height. What is the

height of the...

Yeah, so

existing plastic fence that divides the properties and vinyl fence, excuse me. And I'm not quite certain how well that might survive more rigorous construction, whether there's some protection that will be required for it. So

we'd really like to get an answer on how far the setback and also the

setback

and the new house and the height of the new house.

The setback is at least 30 feet. It might be 30. Okay.

Isn't the requirement 40 feet for setbacks from the back of the

house? The setback is a minimum of 30 feet based on the depth of the lot.

So it's going to go back 30 feet? There will be 30 feet of

rear yard. Okay, great. And currently there are three trees... I think all within that 30 feet. I was wondering what the plan is. We have

So the setback for the garage is five feet though, too. So the detached garage. What does

that mean? So the garage will now be positioned in the backyard as opposed to front?

That's correct. Yes. So if you're looking at the screen here, yes, his cursor will hover over the detached garage, which is located five feet from the rear of the property. And then the rear of the home will be That's the 30 feet. The

garage will only be five feet from our fence? Okay.

And if I'm correctly, the front of the house is the left of this diagram or is it the top of the diagram? The bottom. So the garage is located then on what would be the west side of the property? Terrific. And if I am looking at the depth of that garage, That means we will be removing, you'll have to remove the tree that's on that rear west side. That garage has to be, you can tell me.

The tree is on east side. Yeah,

so this is the existing condition you can see here. The scan is hard to tell, but the TBRs, those are, that's roughly where a tree is being removed, to be removed. So kind of near where his cursor is, that is a tree that they are removing.

Great. So I'm imagining then that the only tree surviving, if I'm looking at this, is the one in the rear east side of the lot. Is that correct? There's a tree on the west side of the lot that's kind of in the middle of that space that you have drawn the wiggly line around, a non-technical term. And I believe there's also a tree in the eastern side of what I'm describing as that wiggly section. Are both of those being taken out?

It's not a film. Oh, okay.

Oh, it's outside of the grading limits that they've shown there and for the fence that goes around it. So I would assume the tree is called out to be removed.

So the two trees, which are more easterly, will survive. And the tree on the west, because the garage is going to go where it is, will be taken out.

Right. Right where the driveway is, yes. Okay. Going to the garage.

Okay. And what about the height of the new place? There's that picture. Are you guys able to see it?

Right. So the height is discussed in the architectural review staff report. But if you scroll down to the comparison one. Or it might

be up. No, I

think it might be up, actually. And it looks like on that same sheet that we were just looking at with the demolition plan, they're installing a construction fence that will be, at least they've shown on that plan, that would be inside of that vinyl fence.

But the height of

the house? He's scrolling to that right now. Yeah.

Oh, no, you're fine. You're fine. Thank you for that. And I think it's confusing because it's not

to the top of the roof, the 30

feet, it's to like the middle

of the roof. Just for your...

Okay,

gotcha.

Okay, great. And that's accurate, right?

To scale? Okay, great. I understand what you're doing with the lot in the back and the house size. That just leads to our question of, especially since you're building the garage right to the rear where there is a significant amount of fencing, I'm assuming there'll be some requirement of protection for that vinyl fence?

inside

it

yeah we put up a it's a wood construction site proof six foot fence that will be around it during all.

Okay, I have a question for after the house is constructed, since the House is come since the garage is coming back so much further than the current houses. And it's very much closer to our fence. Is there going to be, or could we request that you put any landscaping up to ensure privacy or some greenery behind the garage, between the garage and our fence?

Oh, there is. And

if not, can we request it?

Landscape plan. There is landscaping going all the way down the driveway.

feet. Well,

And there's an elevation of the rear of the garage. It's very nice looking rear of the garage, but... Oh, okay. Thank you. Like a

photo?

That's the rear. Oh, I see.

OK. OK. So that window is only going to be five feet away from our property. But

that

will be covered

by this. You'll see that. Oh, this is the house. Oh, I See. Yeah, I see. That's the garage. Yep. OK. Great. I understand that. Thank you. I think that helps a great deal.

And can we request that consideration be given to putting something, some kind of privacy or landscaping planting between the garage and our property?

Yes. Yeah, we could definitely do that, yes.

Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Well, thank you for the

opportunity

to ask these questions. Thank

We didn't go around because I just have a question for a

Yeah, I guess I'm just concerned that we are building a house that without any sort of patio, any sort of decking is hitting the impervious limit. And I just think that we should not be approving this for that reason. I

haven't personally, but Linda's a building company. They have. And so, yeah, really the option, like they had mentioned, is you can build the house smaller and, of course, have more outdoor patio. And they've chosen not to do that.

Right, but I don't think we should allow that. Allow? To say we're going to build a brand new house because, I mean, they might be...

When you say there's a pathway, there's stairs going down, there's a pathway to the garage, there's driveway space there. So, I mean, there's spaces there that can be used as a patio.

I just think setting a standard for a brand new build on a lot that is already maxing out an impervious coverage, which we already have issues with, with absolutely... I mean, you might have like a little... sort of a little, I don't know. I just think, well, I think it's naive of any new homeowner to think that that would in the end be something that they would want to do. And then I think even down the road, the next homeowner is going to be like, oh, I want to throw a deck up, you know, whatever. And so I just think from this commission, it's just like, I don't think that we should approve that for that.

If I could jump in here, I hear what you're saying and it's valid. I can only say that there's been a trend for a very, very long time that small apartment buildings are being replaced by larger ones with almost no backyard. Single family homes with the backyard that we all grew up with has quickly vanished for much smaller backyards as the homes have dramatically increased in size. And I think your point is, does this go too far? And I would just say it shouldn't be a deal breaker for the city to make that call. It may not be my taste, but that's not my job, you know?

I'm not as concerned about the outdoor space in the backyard as I am about the driveway. The distance between the face of the garage and the house is 18 feet 6 inches, and the average car sedan is 14.7 feet.

I mean, the second space, the space to the left in the garage, I will admit, is not, I mean, you're not going to pull a Suburban in there. So it has to do with the car that you would have. The one space, of course, is very easy and just go right in. So it becomes, we've...

So in the right-hand space, I drive straight in, curve a bit. Right. And then to get out... I don't have any space other than that curve where I came in. So I'm going to have to turn my car 180 degrees to go out?

Yes, if you want to turn around to go out, right.

Otherwise, you're going to back down

that? That's what I see a lot of people doing.

OK. No, I have seen houses built and then the developer and the architect with the owner trying to figure out how to get the car that they've driven down into the garage. How do you get it out? So just a

thought. Is she right? Is the bottom line you cannot turn the car around at the end of the yard where the garage

is? I mean, it really depends on the size of the car as far as could you turn it around or not. There isn't a turnaround space. In other words, there's not a 10-foot area of more driveway that goes into the backyard that allows you to have a designated turnaround space. There's about a 20 by 20 pad there of driveway. And so, again,

for them to

turn around a suburban in a 20 by 20 area, why would it take you a lot of turns? It's probably possible, but

just get to reality. If, if I live there, and I pull my car in to get out, can I back it up into the grass

to turn it around? Oh, certainly you could. Yes. I mean, it's obviously something that's going to give

way to make that happen. You're not going to be going backwards the whole length of the lot. Some

out.

Well, it's not enough for me to vote against it, but I think there's going to be a practical solution and somebody's going to buy some gravel and pour it into part of the remaining backyard to turn it around.

I guess the builder of this, Mike Mandlin, lived at 8140 Kingsbury, which you all approved a couple years ago. It had exactly the same setup with exactly the same distance. He lived there for a year and then sold it. But it worked out fine. Now, was I there to see how they did that? No, but it worked out fine and other people live there now and it's working out fine for them. So that's I guess what I can tell you.

No, I was looking at the driveway as well. But the comments have been made. I

and type in their question well

have

you hear me?

Okay. Sorry about that. iPhone challenges with a new update. We're actually the buyers, potential buyers of the property. We did ask questions about the backspace because we desire a much greater space than the five by eight. And questions that we have would be, could we increase or could we have a deck built to If we were to go with a pervious, like a paver on the driveway, if not the entire area of the driveway, And going butt to the garage, would that potentially allow us to do a deck? And then what type of deck could we have and something underneath that is going to be pervious? That is a concern or desire of ours to have the outdoor space versus a 5x8 pad, which we really couldn't do much with.

Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to go back to the plans.

Okay.

Sure. So at this point, our code does not address pavers as providing an alternative on your driveway to increase your impervious coverage elsewhere. So we have had instances where people have to provide an analysis. Essentially, you'd be asking for a waiver or So you would have to provide the analysis and support for your request. And then the board would consider that. But if you just wanted to get this project approved and then come back and do that, it would not be an amendment that staff could approve because right now you are at the maximum lot coverage and decks still count as lot coverage and pavers still count as lot cover. Gotcha.

Okay.

You're shaking your

head, right?

Proceed forward. Proceed forward. Okay.

i think so yeah i'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation and adding a number two recommendation that there be uh planting area um screening planting area on the i guess it's the south side of the garage between the fence and the garage

Just make sure I understand. I thought it was only five feet between the garage and the fence and that there wasn't enough room.

Second.

Proposed new home in Clayton Gardens incorporates some of the neighborhood's architectural features with a hip through, gables and a stone frame recessed front entry. The home's height of 29 feet 7 inches would be taller than that of neighboring homes but it adheres to the high regulations. Clayton Gardens requires that the use of height mitigation measures which were not clarified by the applicant. Staff have observed the use of an increased setback in both side yards. The east side of the home includes box bays that project out from the facade by two feet and increase the mass of the home. Staff are of the opinion that the addition of plantings on the east side of the house in combination with the reduced setbacks should be sufficient to mitigate the height of the new structure. The new home would be constructed of brick with stone and stucco as accent materials. The color or type of brick has not been specifically noted, but the renderings provided depict a pink tone of brick. Windows are proposed to be white with stone banding. Stucco board painted white is proposed for a portion of the east side and rear facades. The detached garage would be constructed of matching brick and will feature identical accents to the home. HVAC units and trash are proposed to be screened with vinyl fencing. The surrounding properties contain a variety of fencing, including vinyl, wood, and chain link fencing. staff have the opinion that materials conforming to the current guidelines should be used and that the proposed screening materials should be revised. Exposed aggregate is proposed to connect the front and rear entries. Staff have the opinion that the design meets the architectural review requirements and is compatible with the surrounding area. Staff recommend approval with the following conditions. One, landscape plan shall be revised to add additional taller plantings along the east side of the home. And two, the proposed screening and enclosure fence materials shall be revised to conform to the architectural review guidelines.

Well, we have a rendering. I know.

No, I was told no. Oh, okay. We want to do like a whitish gray brick, black windows, and then there'll be copper gutters on the house and accents as far as the lights, that type of thing.

Color-wise, no, it

the style, the amount of windows, everything else would stay other than the colors.

we would use composite, yes.

would really probably let the owners decide. Initially, we were thinking of a white fence, but

black windows

gutters would be copper copper gutters and accents as far as the light on the front would be copper.

It might be worthwhile to postpone this particular consideration until you can figure out the material types and put those on plans that we would actually approve. I just want everybody to be really clear about what we have in front of us and what we're considering this evening. It sounds like we don't necessarily have that.

give the applicant time to think about that deck maybe a little bit more as well. If the applicant thinks that he would like to put a deck on that house and that he may come forward with a building permit application for a deck at some point in the future, I think it's better to take that into consideration now than have the deck turned down at some point and There's a lot of unknowns, especially with the architecture here. Buy time for the deck consideration as well. Just wanted to point that out.

mean, we could, yes.

Linda Clark, I work with the builders. When we did this and we first started, excuse me, it was a spec home and this was the color the builder was going to do. And then I think when it just recently got purchased, we met with the buyers and they wanted to do the different colors. So it was for sure black windows, black and white brick on the front. And then the trim is probably going to be black, but they're not for sure yet. Be a black roof. Okay.

the deck with us yet. Okay.

Mm-hmm. I'll make a motion to table.

You, you are access to citizen serve. So if you could upload the material notes of what you're doing, we'll thank you.

I'll make a motion to adjourn. Second.