April 1, 2024 — Meeting Transcript

After the, Kylie, you're up on the stage. Can I just ask you a couple more questions before we give public comments, which is where we're going to be going next? Somebody was asking me about those great windows at Barrios that kind of twirl. Are those going or staying? If you know.

would be to unify the color, not necessarily... Ellen, remember, come up. Sorry.

The goal would be to unifi the color but not necessarily change the design.

Okay. Thank you. With that, and are there going to be kitchens at all in the units? What do you finally decide?

Yes. Right now, the interior program is that it would be small, which is honestly consistent with what they have right now, but completely all new. So small kitchenettes.

And the rooftop entertainment or whatever you want to call it, is that to be done at a future date if the market is there for it?

Correct. And at this point, we want to build the infrastructure, so we do construction all at once. But it could be something as simple as a rooftop event space for the hotel. It could be something that is tied in with the restaurateur below, whatever. There's just consistent demand and a lot of people like the idea of having rooftop access but there's not a plan in place at the moment.

Okay, and Most obvious questions. I think we're ready to take public comments then at this time and any questions that either of you can answer.

Okay, great.

Thank you very much for taking us through the project. At this time, we're open for public comments. If you want to speak, just come on up, give your name and address and tell us what's on your mind.

If you're on Zoom, you can just raise your hand and we'll allow you to talk.

I'm Sally Hetzel. I live at 6233 San Benito. I originally started in the neighborhood on Northwood across from Captain's School in 1979. So I've been around a while. And I was helped in the effort to get the neighborhood on the National Register of Historic Places. So I'm pretty vested in it. I also did the flowers for Caldeas Farm. couple decades uh so this is my neighborhood and uh first i have a question what was the traffic study done dates

uh can we go to tyler for that

i'll

pull that up so the traffic study was completed april 28th of 2023 april correct okay

not real representative of how the neighborhood gets hopping in the summertime when all the outdoor seating is vibrant. I'm concerned about a few, you know, I think the parking thing is pretty unrealistic. The three parking spaces on North Roseberry are currently used by residents, our customers. And so is that going to be, if they're going to be dedicated to the hotel, is it like, Ticketed parking if you're not at the hotel.

Can I ask, is there going to be a cut away from the sidewalk or just park along the side?

Parking for the hotel that would be timed and designated.

The Department of Public Works did not provide us with a clear answer that those have been approved. They've requested three spaces. The way that those requests work, the same way you can see a lot of the hotels or other uses outside in the downtown area, they would be identified as either a valet, which might have a time hour limit to it, or they would essentially lease those spaces and they would be restricted for drop-off. However, I cannot confirm right now that all three requested spaces have been approved by Public Works, but we will get that answer.

One thing to answer, which is a good question. Right now with the apartments, everybody parks on the street because there's no arrangement with anyone anywhere and there's no parking anywhere on site. So what the traffic study, which was third party, intuitively confirmed what we thought of the 14 apartments, some of which are two bedrooms, so two cars, they definitively found there would be a reduction in parking because we're adding eight units total, but we're adding 35 parking spaces. And of the eight units, because it's now hotel use versus apartment use, even at a high occupancy of 80%, and even of the highest statistical occupancy for hotels, which is less than 50%, they determined not us but the parking study determined that it would reduce traffic for sure but also significantly reduce the amount of cars because right now the apartment dwellers do park on the street because that's their only spot to park

and that's 100 percent occupied now i

think we have one vacant

and they're all two two person two car

Likely just the two bedroom, most of the one bedroom. Well, the one bedrooms have a lot of couples who have two cars, but with the hotel, I mean, I could speak how we travel. If we have a car, it's one, even if it's, if we're in a walkable community that has Ubers, we typically don't get a car. But even if we were on the very, very high side of statistics, we would have significantly less cars on the street. even with just the five spaces that we're adding. So we are requesting three dedicated spaces, but we're adding 35 and then reducing parking significantly.

Right.

Okay. I appreciate it.

But you're also adding a bistro and you're talking about an event space on the roof where it could be 50 people.

well the there's nothing planned for the roof today we would have to present whatever plan that would be at that point um but you guys know the code better than me but restaurants small restaurants are not required right now people do park to use the operational laundromat i don't know what the difference would be but that people do enjoy having more retail in demand fronts is really what the neighborhood has told us that they like, like the idea of a community gathering place. Walk and enjoy. So I think particularly at night, I mean, I've driven because I own other properties in Devine to see what it's like at night. If someone was coming to the drop off later at night, there's actually less cars. It's usually during the park peak park times that tends to be a little bit traffic. But right now, even the tenants who are there monthly, don't have any parking issues, and they're parking a lot of cars. But our goal, again, is to utilize the parking off-site.

Thank you, Ellen. Sally, anything else?

Yes. I walk that space from that parking lot down to DeMunn. It's a long walk, especially if it's at night. It's not real lit up. There are lights, but it's not real lit if I were a stranger to the area, I would be very concerned about making that walk at night. And certainly if there's ice and snow on the ground and the weather's inclement or it's pouring down rain, you know, it just seems like we're trying to shoehorn this in in, excuse me, in unrealistic ways. You know, we can make a point theoretically, but It seems a little unrealistic to me. I also have a concern about this going to be pretty major white block in this dark brick neighborhood. I just think it's going to look out of place. If you've driven up Skinker recently, Port Clayton. Second house from the corner. Yes. You know, I haven't found anybody who thinks that's attractive, but that's what's going to go into the heart of DeMunn. So

those are my concerns. And I also appreciate what you do for DeMunn.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

It's actually limestone, so it's not white, but it's not white.

It's...

Thank you. Any other comments?

We have one online, too.

Thank you.

Hi, my name is Suzanne Langlois, and I'm a Clayton resident. I live on Arundel. My partner Howard and I own the building where Caldey's is, and we actually went before this board 30 years ago and started Caldey's. We've since sold it, but we still have the building. And I just want to say, I think this is a super exciting project. It seems beautiful and very thoughtful. And I appreciate all of the comments. We really miss when Sally did the gardening at DeMond. That corner looked so much prettier. So we do miss Sally's gardening there. And I... I also appreciate your concern, Sally. I do want to say though, that I think that, um, it seems that there's a lot of thought being given in this project to keeping, um, keeping the, the current businesses in demand, um, appreciated and vibrant. And I think that that's, that is really the heartbeat of demand is all the independent businesses. And I, and I liked the fact that, that, that is part of the vision of this hotel is to encourage, uh, the visitors to the hotel to explore the neighborhood and to really exploit the neighborhood and it's independent, a trippy feel. So I appreciate that. And I do have a question for Alan. Have you, have you like, sorry, I realize people can't hear and listen. Have you discussed with the existing businesses ways that you can help them support them when they're during construction? Because I know that would be really hard. Even though it's exciting, you know, you go to a city and they're scaffolding up and you have to kind of go under the scaffolding to go into a business, which is, you know, can be kind of exciting because, you know, anticipate what's coming, but how will you kind of help them there?

Very preliminary,

but some of the contractors that we're beginning to talk to and of course the first step is getting approval and then construction drawings and everything that comes next is ways to make sure that we keep the retail open because keep in mind the updates that we're talking about to the retail are mostly cosmetic. The very preliminary timeline that they've talked about which is construction. So it's always very fluid, but with the scale of the project, somewhere in the year range, but a lot of it will be in the inside. The bigger portion piece, of course, will be the addition in the back. But we value our retail tenants. We've tried to keep everyone. That's kind of the heartbeat of Demand, and we like the curated selection that we have right now. We don't know long-term. People do come and go on their own volition, but we like the retail establishments that we have.

Ellen, since you're up there talking about retail, can I just ask, so in that vein, have you gotten commitments from the current retail tenants to stay despite the construction?

We have existing leases, but we also have people who want flexibility on their own volition outside of what we're doing. So the first step in our mind is first approval, then an actual construction plan and timeline with the right parameters and then approaching our tenants, you know, once we have the facts. Right. But I, you know, some people have leases that they want shorter amounts. Some people have longer amounts. So it just will be kind of dependent on both what the tenants want to do. But our goal is not to push people away.

I mean, the reality is if I may say this.

Yeah. Can I just ask those? So, but also, you know, we see, so I, um, I represent downtown. So constantly downtown is we're seeing new buildings go up and this is wonderful. Well, where you're not tearing down a building, you're using an existing building, but a new building comes up or, you know, a renovated building and everything becomes a lot more expensive. Um, So I guess I'm just curious, will you give preference for existing retail tenants to stay or, you know, like a lot of, yeah, a

lot of them are in longer term leases. So I can't speak to the longevity of exactly what we'll do, but I can tell you that the type of tenants we want are the local independent ones and their smaller spaces. So we've done that historically in the past. We've Even during COVID, when I bought the buildings, we worked with our tenants before any of these things. But as property and taxes increase continually, we do have to have a building that's financially operational.

Right. I just wasn't sure if you were trying to clean sweep and start

over. No, no, we're not looking to clean sweep. We like what we have.

Okay.

We like the mix of it, you know we do think obviously that laundromat that was part of the reason I don't anyone knows that the history of that building, but that was part of. The reason that that seller was actually selling is the laundromat just financially. it can't afford to stay open. A lot of the renovation and progress with nothing to do with us in the neighborhood, most of the apartment owners have either renovated the units with washer and dryers inside or added basements. So the areas that are turning over, we're definitely looking to curate specific type of retail. Like a lot of things that have come out of the meetings, which we agree with, are talking to the residents, what type of retail would you like? And consistently we heard more gathering places, more places to eat, we kind of agree with an idea, perhaps a bodega over time, you know, those types of tenants. So we're not looking to bring in Starbucks or anything like that.

Thank you.

Just talk about the construction for a second, technical issues, because I know that this is part of it. The building across the street, our project at the bank, is a good example. When that construction, you know, there's a fence that goes around the entire perimeter of the thing, shutting off the sidewalk, and that's a renovation of an existing building. This building has a good advantage in that it's right on the property line and all of those retail tenants face the sidewalk on demand. Now, Clayton has the rule that you have to fence your entire property when we have a construction thing. So one of the things that we will be talking with with the city about during construction is not fencing the front of it. There's no reason to fence the front of this building. Then people would have to get through the fence in order to get to the retailers. All the construction is in the back. So the fence can start in the middle of the building and go back around the back of it and enclose the back, not the front. The only thing we're doing in the front is changing out windows. And that can be done actually from the inside of the building. So occasionally there might be a lift or something we need on the sidewalk, but we're not talking about wholesale shutting down the building like you see in some of these other projects. The alley? It'll have to be open, yes, because the alley is there for trash service, so we can't close the alley. So it'll have to be opened, but there'll be a fence along the perimeter of the edge of the alley. Okay. at the property line, basically.

Can I go back and follow up on her point about keeping the commercial tenants? I mean, the reality is, as we have seen in downtown Clayton, once you put a new construction, you rehab a building, the costs go up dramatically. And to recapture those costs, the rents have to go up. And like the loop can while back the loop in your city could have have these great boutique stores, because the rents were low. We can have a chocolate candy store, we can have a little clothing boutique store, the size of a matchbox because I assume the rents are are affordable, but once you put the money's in. And I'm not passing judgment on it. I'm just pointing out a reality that as we talk about this project, it would not be unlikely to lose some of these tenants because they're not affordable per square foot or the sizes are just too small to be supported by the new rents. That's all I'm saying at this point. Any other comments?

We have the online person still.

Wait, we still have... Online, who's online?

Hi, thank you. I wanted to, I'm wondering will the hotel guests be compelled to park in the lot? Otherwise, I don't know why they wouldn't simply park in whatever spot they found available. Just as anyone who comes to the neighborhood parks in any available spot. why not to the hotel guests? So although I understand the math is that you're adding 35 spots in the lot, in fact, unless someone is compelled to park there, I wouldn't imagine that they would unless there were no available spots you know, along Daman, in which case the residents who currently park on the street could find themselves having 35 spots in a parking lot up the hill instead of being able to park in front of their building as they currently do. And then I also just wanted to double check that that alley will always remain an alley. The neighborhood now... uses it because it's all one-way streets around here. We drive through that, you know, most people who live on Northwood or Rosebury drive through that alley many times a day. And so I would want to make sure that that would remain just an open alley for the neighborhood and also that that wouldn't be a concern for the hotel itself. That's all. Thank you. Can you please state your name and address for the record? Sure. Sorry. Heather McPherson and I'm 6300 Northwood.

Thank you. Also, I'll answer the alley question. The developer has not requested in the city will not approve removing that alley function just for the same reasons that you mentioned. So the alley is remaining an alley city owned right away.

Great. Thank you.

Any other public comments? Please. You could give your name and address.

Thank

you. Jim Muska, 6231 Roseberry. I generally support the project. I think it's a good idea. I think it would be great for the community. But I do have two grandchildren. one eight-year-old granddaughter and a six-year-old grandson. And my daughter lives at 6414 San Benito. She supports the project too. My concern is kind of an addition to the traffic study concern. When the study was done, was there a temporal dimension relative to the day? We really have two cycles or three cycles down in Des Moines. We have the school cycle in the morning, and where the alleys are used to get to school. And then in the afternoon, school cycle, the kids are coming away from school. And so it'd be interesting to see what the traffic study showed and flow relative to those times today when the kids are really out on the sidewalks and really flooding the neighborhood. That was my one observation. And I do think having a study done during the summer, when the volume of activity in the neighborhood is high, it would have been better to do that. I don't know if it makes sense to redo the whole study because I don't know how the study looks right now. um the other question was how long are we thinking the project's going to take to do i don't know if it was a year i know you want to get it done as soon as possible i

mean once construction starts

yeah

contractors say a year but probably a

year and a half things

usually take longer um but you know we would be doing it all at once and we would be using contract that does things quickly. So it's expensive to do things longer.

Sure. No, you want to get it done as fast as possible.

That's two years.

Right. So tied to that is all permitting approved and all variance and everything approved prior to project starting. So it doesn't start and have to stop. So the goals get all that done before it. And that's part of your job. Great. Oh, on the parking at the seminary. I mean, that's kind of a business. That's kind of a business model decision where they're going to deal with the parking, so I'll defer their judgment on that. I just got back from Ireland, went to a wedding, and the hotel was kind of a boutique hotel. It was probably, I'd say, similar distance, and it's always raining in Ireland. And that was kind of an adventure, and you're walking through to get to the hotel. It was fun. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you.

I just wanted to answer what the traffic study did actually. Can you

just mention?

His question about the traffic study, it was like 30 pages. I had to read it twice. But they did look at very specific time zones throughout the day, throughout the entire day. So I can't quote the specifics, but their overall results were based on every peak time of the day.

Thank you, Willa. Yes. Can you give your name and address?

Yeah, absolutely. My name is Becky Patel. I live at 79 Aberdeen, and I am an older person in Ward 1. So I just want to raise a couple things that I've heard from constituents that have not been voiced today. And one is... One is a question. Today, the access to that parking lot is often restricted by a gate that's closed by Concordia. So I'm guessing that if the parking lot is going to be the primary suggested use for the hotel, that that gating would just not happen and it would be open access 24-7? Is that... I'm looking at the chief operating officer of Concordia Seminary. So you can shut a farther gate to access the parking lot. Great.

Mike Lewis from Concordia answered Alderman Patel's question, and there's a second gate within that area that they could close, allowing the initial gate off of DeMond to be open so there would be access to the parking lot.

Thank you. And then I have a question and a suggestion. So one question is that because this is a planned unit development, the developer is required to demonstrate public benefits, which I know are documented in the proposal, but we haven't discussed them today. So I'd love to hear a presentation of what those are because it's a really important part of the process for the public to understand what some of the benefits are. And one that I would like to suggest is that the parking lot in question has a negative reputation for the people who back up to it. It's like unsightly and there's activity takes place there that is not desirable. And also it has significant stormwater impacts like gathering and stuff. So one thing that could really improve the experience for those residents would be something like, you know, like a buffer landscaping between the south side of Arundel and that parking lot, potentially one that's like rain garden-ish and stuff to help with the stormwater. So I know it might seem odd because it isn't part of the project officially but it is a key component of the project at the same time that's being presented and so I would hope that there's a way for us to look at like improvements that could be made there that makes the whole project overall um like a really wonderful benefit to the community so thank you

okay just just a comment on that Becky I just wonder if uh having a green screen as a buffer is something to be taken up by Concordia when they present their project to do their housing up close to the university. And again, I said earlier, I think that was the only logical place where some of the parking is going to go and maybe that would be the time.

I would love to ask city staff what our options are as it relates to the process. Because my understanding is what Concordia is going to go through as a conditional use permit does not necessarily require public benefits and would not actually like create a mechanism for us to ask for that. And I seem to recall that it is possible for a developer to provide public benefits that aren't necessarily completely within their scope scope of ownership, but related to the project. And this is certainly related to the project as it's been presented. So

Yeah, I can. Do you want me to answer that or

what?

Okay. Yes. So the project that Concordia is separately proposing would be a conditional use permit. And at this time, based on the conceptual drawings they presented, they don't, they have not proposed any construction within the area of this parking lot. However, they've only presented conceptual drawings, so I can't speak to that for certain. I can say that public benefits can be off-site when they have a direct connection, often referred to as a nexus in zoning and land use law, to the project proposed. So in this scenario, this parking lot is proposed to provide the supply that's needed for the proposed development. So it is connected. The screening could... be a potential way to reduce or improve impacts that might be had if the parking lot becomes more used than it is currently but it is not a requirement from the pud but as mentioned it could be a proposed public benefit if they wanted to choose that okay

i think we will go through the public benefits uh before we end tonight for sure any other public comments please ellen

Hello, Alan Richmond, 6233 Northwood. Been a resident in Des Moines for 27 years and love it there. Very excited about Ellen's project. I think it looks beautiful. It's going to enhance the neighborhood in a lot of ways. I hope to stay there as a tenant. We haven't had a chance to talk. I'm sure you're very busy. Most of my concerns are personal just based on my experience logistics as a tenant there uh as a resident of the neighborhood i don't think parking is going to be an issue it's um it's an urban area and parking is an issue it just is and we all choose to deal with it because we live in that area and as a business person i found that the parking doesn't impair my my business so i don't i don't think the parking is an issue at all I'm not convinced though that traffic is not an issue. There can be less demand for parking, but more traffic in the neighborhood. And as somebody who walks to and from work all the time, walks my dog around the neighborhood, there is a lot of traffic already. And hopefully it brings more traffic because you want the neighborhood to grow. So whether it's Uber or Lyft or taxis that are bringing hotel guests or my guests, I worry even from my, you know, absent this project just as businesses grow and The density grows, the traffic gets a little hectic at peak times. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about it or should be done about it. I certainly wouldn't think that should be a reason not to do the project, but just something... to keep in mind because it's a very, very heavy pedestrian area with lots of kids and lots of dogs. And it's getting busy over the years. So I'm excited because the building, I've been in that building and I wanted to make it more beautiful with the windows. I hope we can keep the windows. I don't care what color they are. And it's not a beautiful building and what you've designed makes it look so much better. So I hope this gets going and is not negatively impactful in any way. And I look forward to talking to you about my personal position there.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other speakers?

Howard? My name is Howard Lerner. I'm Suzanne's business partner and 700 Daman, 702 Daman, 6340 Northwood. We're the owners of that building, which is the Caldees building. I just want to... make a quick statement that I am wholeheartedly in support of this project. I think it's great for the neighborhood. I think that when we started our business 30 years ago, there was concern that, you know, people, what are your hours? Well, we wanted to open until midnight. Well, now we close at like six. So, you know, things calm down. Things become, you know, you sort of get a sense for the pace of the neighborhood and the business adapts. Every business adapts to the neighborhood. Hours change in the case of a retail business. And I think the same thing is going to happen. I think, you know, give this project a chance, and I think it'll become an institution that you'll be proud of in 30 years. So thank you. Thank you, Howard.

Good evening, everybody. My name is Tony Kirk. I live at 912 DeMunn Avenue, which is just up the road from this wonderful new project. Very, very excited. As I've said in the previous public meeting, I'm just delighted that somebody's investing in our neighborhood, making a change. I personally love the limestone. I think it looks absolutely classy. It will age beautifully. It'll denominate the building as high end, which is what we want. I think it'll fade much more beautifully than brick normally does. But anyway, that's personal opinion. I have a suggestion. We've been talking a significant amount about parking. I drive through the neighborhood all the time. I see parking spots open all the time. Sometimes on Rosebury, northward, southward, it can be a little bit congested. fair enough. Those are kind of narrower streets, a little bit more complicated. But my suggestion is simply to paint some parking lines, as I think they've started to do in the city. Because as you know, some of the parking in that area is completely random. People park well away from curb cuts. They take two spaces, one and a half spaces. So I think it would help significantly. And this, I'm not sure if actually the city allows for a project to pay for this on our behalf but i suggest that we paint delineate the parking bays all the way up and down those streets as far as we can along demand so people understand where they can park and they don't take up too much space i think it'll save everybody a lot of time and hassle um but overall thank you so much once again i think it's very exciting i certainly hope you make as much money as possible and keep a lot of people spending in clayton we need the tax dollars

thank you thank you johnny Anyone else with a public. We have somebody online. Anthony, is that right? Anthony, you there?

Can you hear me now? I can hear you now. All right. I was in earlier and I decided to finish up on Zoom. I got a couple questions about something that came up tonight. I would like to know about the parking study and traffic study. What are considered peak hours? Is there somebody there who can tell me that? Hold on.

Okay, peak hours. The AM time is 7am to 9am. And the PM peak hour is 4pm to 6pm.

Anthony, anything else? Hello? I think we've had a...

You've muted yourself again, Anthony, if you're trying to speak.

Either the solar eclipse has come a little early or... Okay. Anthony, are you there? You should be okay now, Anthony. He's doing that, I assume. Yeah.

Can you hear me now? We can hear you now. All right. My point is about peak hours for traffic in the DeMunn area, and particularly the business area, it should be from 6 to 10 p.m. Thursday, Friday, and Saturdays during late spring, summer, and fall. That's when the traffic and the parking hits critical mass. So I don't think you're traffic study is valid than for for the neighborhood okay all right and then the second uh question i have is uh part of this meeting tonight is about uh a rezoning what are we changing in the zoning for for that block because i'm thinking There's been a change in Clayton's strategic plan for that neighborhood.

I believe it's a commercial area, and I think we're keeping consistent with that commercial area. We're going to create a PUD. which allows mixed-use development within that commercial area. Right now, that building has residential and commercial. In the end, it will have a hotel on top and commercial on the first floor

Yes, the rezoning is from the commercial district to a planned unit development. And a planned unit development is not like our other base zoning districts where it applies widely. You rezone to a specific planned unit development by ordinance for a specific property. So what is identified as the planned unit development plan, should it be adopted by the Board of Aldermen, would only apply to this property in question. And that would include the height use ordinance all the parking, all of those requirements for this property and the development specifically, rather than a zoning district that applies to any property within the city that has that zoning designation. All

right. And then there's nothing then to prevent a rezoning for the block between North Roseberry and Northwoods, the next black South,

North. That would have to go through a separate process of a rezoning process. I understand

that. But my point is, suddenly it's not going to be demand anymore.

If I could, if you can go with me here. The existing commercial zone is C2, is that correct? Or is it C1? C1 is the existing. Is mixed use allowed in C1?

Well, there's mixtures of uses but residential above in C1 is actually not allowed so the majority of the properties that face them on in this area are not conforming to the existing zoning.

Exactly. That's my point is we are rezoning this to what it actually is. It currently does not meet zoning all up and down. So this is not a wholesale change to the neighborhood or to the city of Clayton, the master plan. This is actually bringing the zoning in compliance with what is already there. So that's one comment. The second is with regard to the traffic studies. In the city of Clayton, I've done a lot of projects in Clayton and typically a traffic study is required. This is part of your process and it's done because traffic is one of those things that has a lot of opinions. We all have an opinion as to what is busy or not busy or feels like there's parking or no parking. That's kind of our own observation and everybody will have a different answer on that. So the way that City of Clayton handles it is the developer is required to hire a third-party independent traffic study consultant for these projects. These people are professionals, and what they do is they go out and measure these things and produce the data so that you can see it objectively as opposed to just general feel of what we all feel it is. So we've done that. We hired that independent consultant. They've done their jobs. They are professionals. They do a lot of these traffic studies, so they know how to measure it And in terms of, it was done in April. I know that's not the peak of summer but April is pretty nice weather to be out and about and going to restaurants.

The only small thing I wanted to add about the summer that he mentioned. This has nothing to do with our project but because I'm down there all the time and I'm aware of it. the captain lot in the summer and at night does get used for the retail and restaurants. So it has a natural flow to the neighborhood where at night and in the summer, we're not requesting that lot, but that is the lot that traffic tends to lead to in the more busy times of retail.

Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you. Can I add one more question I have? Sure, Anthony. And that's about the parking situation with Concordia. There was some thinking that if Concordia allows this parking, they could lose their not-for-profit tax status. Has that been determined or not?

That would, that would not be a city issue at this time and I would hope that Concordia would make sure that's not the case before they allowed that sort of an agreement.

Thank you. Thank you, Anthony. Any other comments.

I'll make it real quick. I'm Patty Busommer at 6451 Clayton Road to Bun Point. We've been there for about 15 years and represent that group that was back there that left because of the tornado. But we've been kind of watching this project for the past year and going to the meetings, the two meetings, and really have been so excited as it's been going on because we feel like there's been so much care put into what the community needs and making sure that the project fits in the community. So we're just all really excited and would love to see it happen. My only concern is the construction, but when you have new things happening, you have construction and that's part of development.

Thank you very much. Anyone else with comments? Seeing none, we're ready to move on. the next part i want to move on is the public benefits for the plan unit development and it's we have that's in the yellow uh there's three of them

before we start that i don't know if you guys have any comments or questions for the developer or anything like that um i just had a couple um questions um ellen or tyler the sidewalk's not going to change at all like the width or everything's staying the same that wraps around both corners

Right at the entrance to the lobby where we talked about, there's a small change in terms of right now the sidewalk as it connects. There's some tree lawn in there as it kind of connects through. We need to slide it over, adjust it to match the new entry. But no, it doesn't wholesale change.

Okay. Yeah, I just want to, you know, again, just make sure there's plenty of space for people to walk and, you know, accessibility, make sure people are able to get who are challenged. i also had questions about um i can't remember and i saw this in the plans where are the bike racks for i know because you guys have to provide are they on the sidewalk or are they more contained within the hotel

we have them in that plan yeah well oh it's not up on the screen anymore

they recommended not on the right peak sidewalk but directly kind of next to

Okay, so at least I just think it might be helpful, you know, otherwise you might have people leaning their bikes against the railings and

they moved it all around as part of like when we move the trash in the parking so it's now back in that off the alley.

Okay. And then I noticed that you guys at some point just because I know we aren't going to get into points but you know because I think it is important for everybody to realize that this is a plan unit development. So in order to have a planned unit development, you have to provide public benefits. So you guys are kind of right up at that point level. You need 20 and staff is recommending 20. So, you know, think about because while this board is... Certainly very critical of points. Once you get to the Board of Aldermen, Tyler, I think their points get even, I would say, the critique gets even harsher. So just thinking about, you know, you took out the EV charging stations. I know that was a discussion at some point is that that's pretty much off the table discussion.

So the thing about the EV charging stations, and this is something that everybody's learning

now.

It requires a really large transformer.

Yeah.

So we're dealing with this with other projects right now. And I was quite surprised actually, because our clients like to sell condos and say everybody can have an EV charger in the basement. I have learned recently that when you do that, you have transformers all over your site the size of school buses. It's not practical. So we have to kind of figure out how to navigate forward with EV chargers and certainly on this site because the site is so tight and there's no place to put transformers, we deal with transformers on poles, it becomes a little bit impractical.

Yeah, I just it just might be, you know, I mean, again, that's a business question for you guys. But, you know, people call and say, you know, where are the where can I park my car and charge it? So

is there a minimum number that you have to provide in order to get a point for

that? I can't remember. That would be a good question for Anna, but I'm not sure.

No, there's

not.

One can be accommodated off the electric grid of the building, but then you get more when you get to issues.

It might be, again, I would just potentially think about it. It might be something to think about. In terms of this, Anna, just correct me if I'm wrong, the spaces that I know that Public Works is still looking into it, but those are city's compensated for that losses or they're not metered over there so they're so remind me how does that work if we dedicate spaces

they they would need to go through a essentially a permit process where they lease for all intensive purposes those that right of way from the city is essentially what they're doing through that

so there's not because we don't because we don't meet her over there so there's not necessarily going to be exchange of

I'm not familiar with all the details, so I wouldn't want to tell you incorrectly about any sort of fee schedule, but I do know it would need to be an agreement established through Public Works.

Okay. I don't remember if I had any

other... I would add this was a conversation I had down in the tornado room with someone, but it's on that same subject, the sidewalks. You asked about sidewalks changing. That's also part of public works. Those are all public sidewalks. So they might require us to do some changes. I don't know because oftentimes Clayton will require sidewalk changes when we have a project. So I can stand up here and tell you we're not planning on changing the sidewalks, but just know that it might come from public works. In

Public Works' review during the review of the process, they did not request any changes. All their comments were more related to leaving certain areas open during construction, but Ryan and I did not specifically talk with them about the parking reserve spaces, so that's why I just wanted to call that one out.

And I just want to make a comment, too, because this is a relatively new thing. Although this is a fairly large project, but we have a new kind of construction parking requirement. So, you know, people in the neighborhood I know because construction is painful. So they'll be required to provide a plan for where all the workers from the construction company will park. So most likely it will be somewhere, it will definitely be somewhere off-site because we can't have 15 construction people parking in the neighborhood. That's problematic. So they will require to submit some sort of plan to wherever people will park. Okay.

It's coincidental that the Commerce Bank just shut down there at the corner. So that lot is now available. Oh,

yeah, that's helpful then. But those are all the comments I have just related to site plans. I don't know if

anybody... Perhaps the follow-up on Bridget, before we go on to the public benefits, if anyone else on the Planning Commission would like to have any comments or questions with regard to the project?

No, I have nothing further. Tyler, you did an excellent job. You answered all of my questions. I've been lining through them. So thank you.

Yeah, I have nothing to add for right now.

Is Carolyn on?

Yeah, no, I'm

here. Um, no, I,

no, I have nothing, uh, further to add.

All right. Thank you. And, uh, Let's go to the PUD analysis. And a planned unit development, it's a way you take a piece of property and you could look at it from a big picture analysis and not just a five foot setback as required on the ordinance. You try to make it work from a bigger perspective. And they have done that. But part of the price to do something like that is that you have to show that you're doing some kind of public benefit to the neighborhood. or that the project will add to the neighborhood's vitality, or richness, or livability. And we do it with what's called a point system. It's a lot of judgment call. How much of a benefit is the fact that it's a new building, or it's recycling an old building? Is it 1 point, 2 points, 3 points? And they have to get up, as Anna said, 20 points To show public benefits and towards that end We have a document I'm sure all of you could read that right and And you'll see You'll see that the requested is 25 and the staff came up with 20 and a minimum of 20 is required And it can't be 100 because if you look at the possible point scale, there's a range that you can give, zero through five or zero to one. And a decision has to be made within that range. And as a planning commission, we are first obligated to look at it. So if you look at top, it's a range of zero to five and it deals with construction buildings. That's basically the new building that they're building And would it be of significance of something unique designed to have architectural character that will complement the existing building and surrounding context and maybe have some unique details? Does it fit in with the neighborhood a little bit? And towards that, they requested five and the staff gave five. And I'm asking the commission here Does anyone have a problem with the awarding of five or would want to suggest another number? As for me, I'm comfortable with a

five. I unfortunately would probably and again, I think it's a beautiful the problem here is architectural distinction. I think it's beautiful building and I think it's fantastic that they're taking an old building but I'm just not sure I would give them five. I would probably go down to three or four. But again, I'm

Five. I agree with Bridget, a three or four. I know we've had a lot of buildings come through here and we're very particular about like what we give a five when it's architectural distinction. It fits in great with the neighborhood. It's a beautiful building, but the highest

I would go is probably a four. Okay. So we have two fives, two fours at average is four. Oh, Carolyn?

Interesting. I'm leaning towards a five. Honestly, I think there's a lot of consideration and, you know,

For the

neighborhood. And I don't know. I think it actually has a lot of characteristics. So I'm at a five.

Okay. And I want the commission to keep in mind, the proposed staff is 20 and we need to come up with 20 if we want the project to go through.

Okay.

yes right i'd give it a five as well okay uh that puts it pretty close to five just under five and then the next item is uh a range of zero to one the sustainability practice of adaptive reuse reusing the existing building And it was requested one, and the staff gave it zero. And that's with regard to just the fact they can reuse the existing building more or less. I think that's important. I would certainly give it one. The points are down below, I believe. Isn't that right?

So on this line item, the zero to one, there's actually a number of sustainability category practices that they could ask for points. They requested points for adaptive reuse of the building. Staff felt that those points are already being awarded under the preservation, but staff did feel that it met some of the other criteria when it comes to lead for your building siting and how they laid out. And so staff recommended one point for that.

All right. So this is zero for this line item. I don't have a problem with it since it's put in someplace else. The next one is preservation of buildings which are architecturally or historically significant.

So you skipped over one. Again, there's two lines under the sustainability item here. The first, they propose adaptive reuse.

And then the second would

be the appropriate building setting, which takes into account the LEED standards for how you lay out your site.

in the small line. That's just one point. Anyone have a problem with that? Okay, that's fine then. And then the next line item is the preservation of buildings which are architecturally or historically significant or contribute to the character of the city. The range is zero to seven. And this is the preservation of building idea. The developer requested seven and the staff recommended seven. I don't have a problem with it.

I don't have a problem. Again, I think it's a little high, but I think it's really important that we're awarding a developer here who's taking an old building and making it better, which I really appreciate. Clayton, unfortunately, was on the cover of the post-dispatch related to tearing down historically significant homes. So I think it is fantastic here that we're taking an old building. And making it better. So I would be okay with seven points.

Okay.

I have said that better. Honestly, that was brilliant. Perfect.

Thank you, Carolyn. Seven, seven it is. All right. The next one deals with, um,

The next set of categories within our point system right now in the code, there is kind of an open-ended category where a developer can propose what they feel are public benefits of the project that are not specifically outlined within the options of the code currently. So those do not have prescripted point ranges. The developer will put will propose what they feel is the right number of points. So the next four in here fall under that kind of open-ended category that gives discretion to the Board of Aldermen.

And the first one is currently there is zero on-site parking. We're adding five because that's to the rear. The spaces are tucked under, right, and behind. And they requested three, and the staff recommended two I would add another point to that. The fact that they went to Concordia and got 30 spaces deserves real creativity to make that work. In an area that is already very tight with traffic, I would definitely give them three points for really trying hard to do the to do the right thing and provide as much parking as possible in a difficult situation.

I would just stick with two.

Three. I'm going to go ahead and do three.

Carolyn?

Agreed, yes.

Agree with three?

Yes.

Thank you. So again, that's just barely under three on that one. The next one is currently the existing buildings do not feel the site which creates large gaps in the street frontage along north and south. Roseberry. By filling these gaps it creates a much more pleasant pedestrian experience and better urban design. I think what they're really looking at is if you look on Roseberry on the side of the street there's a warehouse in the back and From a walking, there's really nothing there. When you walk now, as people walk towards the shopping area, they'll see something better. I can't agree more than that. The requested points is

three,

and the staff recommended three. I would agree with the staff. Is that OK? Got to say yes.

Yes. Yeah.

Carolyn?

Yes.

Okay, thank you, Carolyn. The next one is currently only a small portion of retail faces North Roseberry. The new design will have the hotel entity, the hotel entry off of North Roseberry and a new larger section of retail on South Roseberry. This will wrap the pedestrian friendly experience around the building Continuing it onto the side streets and not just focusing on DeMunn Avenue. What am I missing here? Staff requested zero.

Staff feels that that's the same benefit as the category directly above.

Okay. All right. I'm not sure if it's identical. I'd give it one. board that's it

i i guess i would agree with staff i think it's already been given three points above

i would agree with staph

hey

carolyn

yes i agree too and

it's zero that's fine the next one is uh says currently the alley and all the dumpsters and alley functions are very open to view on north and south roseberry by creating an alley court in the building We can shield these functions from the street view and provide a more pleasant experience walking along the street. I just want to make sure that if our goal is to pass it, we need to make sure we come up with 20 points. And two of them are slightly under the staff recommendation. So this deals with being able to hide the dumpsters And an alley functions, whereas right now it's not being hidden at all. They recommended three to staff. The developer requested three. The staff gave two. I would give three.

I would still agree with staff. I mean, I think it's great that the alley is going to look better. You know, I think somebody said that alleys are used widely in this neighborhood. So I think it's wonderful. to have the improved appearance of the alley and moving the dumpsters, but I would just agree with two.

Two. Also two.

Carolyn?

Agree with staff on this. Yeah.

Okay. That is two.

I would also just say that I think it's important for everybody to understand too that It is not our goal to give the developer 20 points. It is the developer's job to present those points, so I just want to clarify what was said.

And then since this is a boilerplate of public benefit, I would like to add another request if that's possible. I guess the max is three to give three. and it's for this public benefit, if a building comes in and a plan comes in and a use comes in that really benefits the neighborhood, makes it a more vibrant neighborhood, brings more people on the streets, gives better opportunity for Daman to be passed to the next generation of younger people to be able to enjoy a glass of wine or a latte or a nice juicy hamburger, or ice cream, or whatever it is, and to have a building that is really nice, I can't think of a public benefit that is better than the concrete thing that we are talking about in the past. And I really think we should give it three points because if we think they're really adding something to a neighborhood, let's say they're adding something to the livelihood of the neighborhood, to giving it life. for the contribution to the neighborhood as a whole, to making it vibrant and giving it a longer life.

I mean, I absolutely appreciate your comments, Bob. And I do think that if the project were to go forward, that it would provide, be a wonderful addition to the neighborhood. But I just think that all those feelings you have expressed have kind of already been, you know, incorporated into more kind of objective ideas. objective areas that we've already kind of given points for. And I think also too, I mean, it seems like I don't, again, it's because I think I was outvoted at the beginning. So I think we're still...

Right, so we like to keep it as whole numbers. So I was tracking it as you went. So the first item, we had four people give it a five and two people give it a three slash four, more of a three, maybe a four. So in that scenario, if you went with the five, everything else was very straightforward. That gets you to 21 points is what you've recommended using those whole numbers.

I really admire what Bridget says, because I really respect everything she says. And it always makes sense. But as I've been on the planning commission You know, we always come back to what makes a neighborhood? What makes it breathe? What gives it heart? It's more than just adding a new building. It's more than trying to make as many parking spaces as you can, perhaps. There is something like the soul of a neighborhood. And it is so hard to make it work. And I think Ellen has pulled a rabbit out of a hat trying to keep the old buildings, make them nicer, fill out the back and add vibrancy to the neighborhood. And that intangible, or whatever you want to call it, I think is independent of everything else and is so key. In the comprehensive plan, we talk about why is Clayton downtown safe? This building will help give life, which there already is, but continue it and build on it. But I respect what you said.

No, I would agree with you, Bob. They don't need the three points. They've already met what their requirement is.

i guess they have by the rounding off yeah

so you know i agree but

okay i i just wanted to say that

yeah i agree

okay carolyn you want to add anything

Really? You're going to ask me that? Honestly, I would like to say I respect what you said. I think everybody has their own opinion of what good is. OK, so I think we need to. That's why we have this system right now. Everybody has a different opinion of what they think good is and what is good for the environment, what is good for anything. So I appreciate what you said. I don't have an argument with it, but I'm saying that that's why we have this in place. that is exactly why we have all of this in place so that we can discuss this. So to me, I feel like while, you know, I might think that the demon thing is wonderful, another person might not, and we need to have that discussion. And that's exactly what I'm saying. So it's actually kind of cool that you brought all of that up because at some point, you know, you have to like educate the public almost to that, you know, why, who gets to say who gets to say, and I completely agree with that. I think there is an educated guess for, you know, for the most of us. I mean, most of us are going in, you know, I mean, my goodness, I went to, you know, University of Pennsylvania and studied under Ian McCarg and James Corner. And yeah, I have a good idea of what good is. But is my idea of good right for Clayton? And I think that's really important for us to have the variety that we have on the board here. And there's nothing more perfect than that. And mic drop. With

that, we have... three things we need to approve tonight

so we do we do have one hand up if you would like to still entertain we haven't officially closed the public hearing yet

is there somebody else wants to talk yeah uh anthony you back on

uh no i don't have another issue

okay is there anyone else with any comments to make before we go into uh reviewing the motions okay then we'll close the public hearing at this time uh with that uh members of the of the board we have a blue pink and yellow

Sorry, if you look at the agenda, it outlines numbers three through seven.

The rezoning is the PUD? Yes. Which one is it? The first one is the rezoning.

I can't hear, sorry. They have not made any

motions

yet. Oh, thank you, Anna.

The first one we have to take into consideration for vote is the rezoning, the yellow one. The rezoning for the plan unit development and site plan review, the staff, and may I just say, I think the points average 20 tonight, that would be acceptable.

It was 21 based on the first one being over four and a half. So round that up to five.

Is there anyone with regard to that prepared to make a motion?

I can make an emotion, with respect to the to recommend approval of the rezoning and plan you didn't development to the Board of aldermen with the following conditions i'm assuming that developers saw the three condition. First impacts of sidewalk closures and temporary pedestrian path requirements. She'll be evaluated by Public Works prior to issuing a demolition permit and, again, prior to issuing a building permit. Number two, all signage shall comply with Chapter 425, signage unless a separate sign district specifically for this project is developed and approved by the Architectural Review Board. Number three, lighting facilities shall comply with applicable city codes and shall be arranged in a manner which will protect roadways and neighboring properties from direct glare or other interference.

Is there a second? Second.

Second.

Take a vote. Ayes. Aye. Ayes. It's so approved. The next one is combining the two.

So the next one would be site plan. So Bridget's the same. Yep, yep.

I'm just going to make a motion to approve the site plan review as submitted.

Second.

Second.

Ayes.

Aye. Yeah.

So approved. Next.

Next would be the architectural review. Actually, yeah. Yeah, next. Architectural review. And I will just make a motion to, um, approve the staff recommendation as submitted.

Any second. Let's take a vote. Ayes. Aye.

So approved. And then the last thing is the minor subdivision plat. So I'll make a motion to recommend approval to the Board of Aldermen with the following conditions. Number one, that the applicant provides a MILR with the surveyor's signature and the property owner's signature for the appropriate City of Clayton signatures per the subdivision ordinance requirements after Board of Alderman approval. And number two, approval of this plat is concurrent with and intended solely to facilitate redevelopment of subject properties as authorized by the rezoning and plan unit development approval ordinance. adopted concurrently herewith, which rezoning and PUD approval is subject to lapse and the time limit specified in the city's land use regulations section 405.1460. Accordingly, if the plat approved hereby is not filed with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds prior to the deadline and the time limit applicable to the rezoning and Pud ordinance aforesaid the approval An authorization for filing of a plat shall lapse and this ordinance shall be of no further force and effect. And number three, that the applicant files the plat with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds Office prior to application for construction or demolition permits for the property as approved under the rezoning and plan unit development ordinance.

Second. Take a vote.

Ayes.

Aye. So passed. And that concludes all the motions regarding the hotel project. So congratulations, and we wish you good luck. Tyler, thank you for taking us through it. You did a great job explaining everything to us. And this concludes the motion to adjourn.

Second.

Ayes. Aye. Nays. We're done. Thank you for attending.