March 4, 2024 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Playing Commission ARB for March 4th. If you have any electronic gadgets, please silence them. Ryan?

Steve Lichtefeld? Here. Carolyn Gatiss?

Here.

Bridget McAndrew?

Here.

Bob Denlow? Here. Helen DiFate?

Bob Denlo? Here. Helen DeFate?

Here.

Kami Waldman?

Here.

David Gipson? Here.

David Gibson? Here.

We have minutes from the previous meeting on February 20th. Are there any changes? Seeing none, do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed?

Okay. We'll move on to new business. And the first item is 8191 Stratford. And the applicant is here. We'll start with the staff report. Ryan.

Subject property is located at the north side of the intersection of Stratford Drive, North Forsyth Boulevard and East Drive. The property is zoned R2 and is in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The property's location on a corner results in street frontage on both the east and south sides per section 405-1900A1B. All yards fronting streets are required to abide by the requirements of front yard setbacks. A five foot tall wood fence with one foot of lattice is proposed to enclose the rear yard. The fence would reside atop an existing stone retaining wall set back three feet from the sidewalk. As proposed, the fence would encroach into the front yard setback and would exceed the height restrictions set forth in Section 405-1900A1D. Properties in Clayton Gardens use a variety of techniques to address screening on corner lots. The property to the north resides in University City but has a similar fence to that proposed by the applicant. The fence resides atop the same retaining wall, reaches five feet in height, and is topped with lattice. Similar configurations can be found along North Brentwood Boulevard. The proposed fence is not located at a primary corner of the lot and would be adjacent to a similar fence. The location and design is not likely to impact the character of the primary front yard, and staff are of the opinion that it is comparable to the other fences in the neighborhood. Staff recommend approval as submitted.

Okay, thank you. The applicant, come up and give us your name, address, and add anything you would like.

Thank you.

My name is Alexander Boxer and I'm at 8191 Stratford Drive. My wife and I moved there in October with our three young children and soon to have a fourth. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate to be in Clayton. We love how beautiful Clayton is. We want to do something that we believe is beautiful and will contribute to the beauty of the neighborhood and also give our children a wonderful place to play. So I respectfully submit that I hope that you do approve our fence. Thank you very much.

Currently, you have no fence around what you would call the backyard. That is correct. But there

is a retaining wall. Yes, the retaining wall, I think it's because our house is on a hill, but the retaining wall is level with what is the dirt that is up there. So when our children do play out there, any ball will just roll right onto the street.

I think the choice of fencing looks good. It matches your neighbor pretty close. And it really does come into your front yard, but you have two front yards. So it functions as a rear yard. I have no problem with it. I think it will be a good addition to the neighborhood. Bridgette?

Um, I agree. I actually used to live right across it. When we first moved to Clayton, we rented the house immediately across East drive that front Stratford. So, um, I definitely understand why you would want to fence right there. And, um, there's not a lot of pedestrian traffic like down that way. I feel like it runs Stratford and Forsyth. So, um. Of course I do understand why you'd want to fence. So I have, I have no problems with it.

Uh, I don't have a problem with it, but it bothers me as well.

Understood.

Ellen?

No objection.

Amy?

No issues. Looks nice.

Carolyn?

I'm trying to understand how that fence connects to that wall. So how do you?

If I may, the wall, the fence would essentially be on top of the wall, the retaining wall. I guess I don't have the language to speak it, but is a retaining wall. Our backyard is on top of that because our house is on a hill. So similar to our neighbor who's on the same hill, the fence would be on top of the retaining wall, which is the ground level of our house.

Okay. No other comment. Thank you.

David? No comments or questions.

Okay. We have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted.

All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. You're on the way. When will it

be installed? I understand they have a couple week waiting time, so hopefully... Well, good luck with it. Thank you very much.

Welcome to Clayton.

We'll go to the second item under new business, and that's 740 Francis Place. And the applicant is here. But Ryan, we'll start with you.

The subject property is located on the east side of Francis Place between Colmar Drive and Halpax Drive. It's zoned R2 and is in the Clayshire Urban Design District. The property is developed with a single family home and recently saw the addition of a parking pad on the south side of the driveway. No review was conducted prior to the installation of the driveway. Violation notices were sent in September 2023 and January of 2024. The applicant aims to address the violations and is seeking Airbnb approval for the driveway. Approval requires that ARB find that the project meets the criteria for alternative compliance, the driveway is subject to the requirements of the Clayshire Urban Design District and architectural review guidelines for new driveways. Section 410.345a identifies open front setbacks as a character-defining element of the Clayshire neighborhood, and this characteristic is reinforced with subsections 1 and 3, which limits front yard coverage to 30% and limits the width of new driveways to 10 feet at the street edge. Driveways in Clayshire are commonly wide enough for a single vehicle in the front yard, but there are examples of homes with driveways wide enough to accommodate two vehicles. No other examples of parking pads or driveways wide enough to accommodate three cars are present in the front yard setbacks. A survey prior to the expansion and dimensions of the expansion have been provided, but no new survey has been provided. Prior to the expansion, front yard coverage measured 26.8%. Staff estimate new coverage to be 34.2%. This exceeds the permitted coverage, but a new survey would be required to verify. The existing driveway is roughly 16 and a half feet wide. The expansion is constructed of flat concrete and measures eight feet wide. It runs the length of the driveway from the house to the apron. The expansion does not include the apron, but does encroach into the public right-of-way. new the new driveway width is roughly 24 and a half feet it doesn't meet the street edge but does encroach into the public right-of-way public works has provided the following comments that a right-of-weight per right-of-away activity permit is required for this work the driveway approach shall be constructed to connect with the new concrete in accordance with the detail sheet sd6 of the clayton standard specifications and the boundary survey should be provided to confirm that the new addition does not encroach into The existing driveway apron exceeds 10 feet and is therefore considered legal and nonconforming. To bring the expanded driveway into conformance per the requirements of Public Works would require the expansion of the apron and therefore an expansion of the nonconformity, which is not permitted per Section 405.130.1. Staff are of the opinion that the utilization of an expanded driveway designed to accommodate three cars and situated within the front setback is incompatible due to the absence of similar features in the nearby area. It's contradiction with the requirements of the Clayshire Urban Design District and the requirement to expand the nonconformity to comply with city standard specifications. Additionally, staff have the opinion that should the members of the Architecture Review Board vote to approve the expanded driveway, the approval should be conditional on the comments provided by Public Works. The Clayshire Urban Design District limits new driveways to exposed aggregate brick pavers or stamped concrete. Common materials in the area include asphalt, aggregate, or concrete city standard pour. limited examples of flat concrete can be found nearby driveways typically remain consistent in material, but can sometimes differ from materials used for front entry paths. The existing driveways constructed of asphalt with the expanded driveway constructed a flat concrete. independently, the use of flat concrete would likely result in a minimal visual impact. However, staff are of the opinion that the use of flat, concrete adjacent to two other materials being exposed aggregate for the front path and the asphalt for the driveway. is not compatible with the Clayshire Urban Design District. Staff are of the opinion that the expanded driveway use has not met the criteria for alternative compliance. They recommend that the driveway addition not be approved as submitted and that should be removed or modified to remove the encroachment into the right-of-way to comply with coverage requirements.

Okay, thank you. The applicant, come on up and identify yourself, name and address, and add anything you would like. Okay.

Good evening, everyone. My name is Jason Jan. I've been a very happy Clayton resident for the past five years. Family of five. I have three kids. Enjoy all the public amenities that we have here. Very well taken care of, very well maintained. Shore park, tennis court, playing tennis with my kids out there, you know. So again, very happy to be a Clayton resident. So first of all, I guess would like to acknowledge the importance of, I guess, the regulations dictated by the city as far as permitting anything. And I would like to apologize and regret for my oversight for hence being here today, you know, talking to you guys. Like I said, I just wanted to at least acknowledge discuss with you all coming up with a reasonable remedy to finding a resolution or, you know, again, a reasonable remedy that I could modify or anything with the driveway pad being there. I guess the story is that I have two older sons that actually started driving and me and my wife contemplating, I was contemplating they could park on the street at least, you know, we don't need to add a driveway pad for them. with the two new cars, but living in our Clay Cheyenne neighborhood, there's a lot of traffic flow on Francis Place that a lot of cars that are parking on the street itself, especially when we are going in by the apartments. So there's a lot I guess our traffic flows or any kind of future with the cities doing any landscaping work. So I try to be as considerate as possible just to make the street you know looks better at least not occupying all the parking spots on the street itself so i guess um that's that's kind of like our our take on adding that driveway pad so we start making calls uh getting different beats so there's a our we went with a a pretty well-known company actually are it's a pretty uh locally owned company that uh that only do dry fade so the day that they came over and start i did actually talk to the project manager that the superintendent that you know i said um are you guys not supposed to actually start the workforce and go to the city and apply for permanent oh he says this is inside your property you're not taking encroaching on the uh the curbs or anything so um naïve enough that i actually took his word that you know are that okay i guess uh you guys can start work and and i provided a survey a survey that we have done since 2021 are quite updated one that to the company and making sure that we don't encroach to our neighbors anything so he says don't worry this survey it's good enough it's sufficient enough for us to really so like i said They've already did the job and then I paid them in full and I tried to have them to come to this meeting. Like they've already got their money, you know, they decide not to show up here. I've copied them on the email as well. I'm here playing to you guys, finding a remedy, a reasonable remedy that way to modify adding any landscaping to, you know, at least for me is to find a resolution that will adhere to the city guidelines, right? That's from my end, at least.

Well, unfortunately, I think you got some bad information from the contractor that has brought you here tonight. But let's go through it. Where the new driveway is, how far is it from the south property line, your adjacent neighbor?

So the south property line, you know, are, I guess, excuse me if let's say I don't, I guess are the, at least let me look at, yeah. So the south property to my neighbor, how far is it, right? So there is at least a five feet, you know, five feet space between the driveway and uh to between my neighbors uh at least the uh the line the property line on

the survey that we received um that dimension is not on there the eight foot wide concrete pad is on there um it It seems to be very close to your neighbor's property. I have a concern about that, plus the concerns that Ryan has read in the staff report. Also, aesthetically, you've got three different materials there, and it sort of looks like a patchwork. And of course, the new driveway does not come out to the street either. But if I understood the staff report, the apron would have to be widened, but that would be non-conforming. So it can't be. Correct. OK. So you cannot drive back out of that pad onto the street.

No. So we normally are, we would, yeah, drive, actually go into my garage and back up, I guess turn left and back up. That's how we've been doing it. At least when I talked to the contractor that was installing it, I said, since the drive-in, does the drive-in not supposed to actually back up all the way? He said, no, since you're not, you know, I guess, you know, quote-unquote, you know, not flying from... That's the furthest that we could do only. We are not supposed to take up the curb for you to back all the way up. So again, that was on my end, you know, that was my oversight for sure, you know, and not at least from that point stop them from doing it.

Well, having had teenage drivers...

Two of them, yeah.

They tend to take the most expedient route

You know, I mean, I like to share at least that, you know, my teenage driver, they have actually improved our parallel parking, you know, skill from my driver at least. I don't know. Either way, yeah. But yeah, they don't really, I don't allow them to back up because there's a curb there and they know that they're supposed to come in and just kind of do a parallel parking if there's a car, yeah, into that.

I commend you if you can get them to do it all the time. The other thing is the new pad in conjunction with your asphalt drive adjacent to it looks like you could park six cars there.

The asphalt?

On the combination of the asphalt and the new concrete pad.

Oh, okay.

It's, I think, 26 or 28 feet wide. Yeah. Okay. It really has the look of a commercial parking lot right now. I find fault with it. I know that there is a way to go with the public works recommendations, but let's see what the other comments are. Bridgette?

Um, yeah, I mean, I kinda, I really, I have a hard time with this one. Um, cause I, um, I, I do hear you that it sounds like you got some bad advice from your, um, And I also appreciate the fact that I think it's really, I think it's great that you were kind of thinking about trying to get the cars off the street because I understand Francis Place is certainly a thoroughfare. I mean, it's not like Hanley Road or something, but it's kind of the main way people get in and out of Francis Place. So I totally understand that and appreciate it. Yeah. Because I also, my oldest started driving. So I understand she's always got to park on the street. So I would like to try to find a way that we can meet in the middle per se, because I would hate, I mean, it seems really wasteful and difficult to ask you to remove all this. So I'm not sure. I don't know if there is something that we can come up with that would be kind of a middle ground solution. But it is difficult. It doesn't look great. And honestly, my concern is I don't want people to look at your driveway too and think everybody else can think, oh, maybe I can pour concrete in my front yard to allow for more parking pads. You know, I would just, the precedent it sets concerns me. So, you know, finding a way, you know, of course, I think there are certain justifications. I understand you're on a main thoroughfare. You're trying to get your cars off the street. And I think unlike not everybody has, I guess, the space to add to their driveway and you clearly had some space to add to your driveway here. So I do hope that we can find some, you know, middle ground. But my concern is, you know, Clayton, you probably know, and, you know, really everywhere, we are constantly dealing with water issues. So taking away grassy space that allows for water to permeate, that kind of concerns me too. So... I don't know. Those are, those are kind of my concerns, but I am also sympathetic to, um, what sounds like kind of a difficult situation for you. So.

Thank you. Um,

no, uh, you know, and, um, aesthetically, um, it doesn't look very attractive and, and, uh, goes beyond your building line the way it is. I hope you and the city could come up with something to salvage some of it or what have you, but I think you're in a very difficult situation. You may have to take away the driver's licenses away from your teenagers. I don't know. Yeah.

I know. No, I mean, thank you for Being considerate on that you know I hear you all, you know in the first place that you know I think it's for me it's another expensive lesson learn you know from you know nightly you know our. I guess, paying in full the contractor that is, you know, like I said, you know, because a lot of times that I did it because it was neighbors. Actually, my neighbors did some kind of at least, I guess, the remodeling. That's how actually I got the cue of actually when because their property, they actually did their remodeling and then their driveway or their fence encroached to... Because when we did our survey in 2021, the survey company told us that, you know, I didn't even know that. And then I went to the city, I said, did my next door neighbor, did they apply for any permit or any kind of records that since my survey company pointed out that there was some encroachment onto our property, says nothing has been found, but it was a new, I guess not a new construction remodel and everything. And so, you know, from that, I guess knowing that they didn't, I guess they did have a driveway. Their driveway is really nice though. It's a pebbles type driveway and everything. So there was no record that, you know, when I came to the city. So I said, okay, maybe it's the same thing that, you know since they're not going all the way out to the Francis Place street they don't have to apply for a permit. But like I said, it's one of those things that I think it's on me, you know, to, you know, I don't think my wife would like me to bring this news back to her that, you know, that we have to, you know retake out the whole drive-in pad and redo it again, you know. But I think by taking it out, probably I wouldn't redo it again. I have the kids to, you know, you have to park our existing driveway in the morning. Whoever wants to back up early, just pack it up. And then, yeah, and the garage, you know, whoever parked inside the garage, just have to wait for whoever that's parked on the driveway. What

did the neighbors say? I'm sorry. Your neighbors say to you.

So we did had a, I did point it out to them and then they were saying that, oh, it was just, it says here point, you know, it's very slight encroachment. Like I said, you know, being a good neighbor, I, you know, like it's, I think they needed a driveway that is wide enough for them to pull the car to the back of their house, you know? It's just resale-wise, something that would actually, not that we are moving anywhere, but I think it's just going to affect it a little bit. but we had an agreement that it was okay. Let's say that, you know, next time that it was resell or anything, just making sure that this is at least pass along to the, you know, new ownership. But like, it's a separate, but like I said, I think right now it's the case that for me, it's my drive in, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm, If the city can come up and work with me aesthetically-wise, I would be willing to add some landscaping, get a professional landscape to come in and just cover up certain things to make it nicer. Yes, I would be more than willing to do that rather than taking out the whole driveway. But I respect your decision, all of you here, just to consider and listen to my case for my oversight at least. Ellen.

I'm afraid I don't have any good news to share. A lot of times, you know, I can come up with something creative. But I think your kids will need to learn to park on the street and maybe walk to and from the house. And then if they move to a city, you know, urban New Jeffery Yorg City, I used to walk about two or three blocks to park a car. So... Now, I think even if you took that concrete pad away and then turned it and lost some of your entry walk, you still have a parking lot in the front. If you had an 8-foot or 10-foot driveway, but you've got 16...

I'm afraid I don't have any good news to share. A lot of times, you know, I can come up with something creative. But I think your kids will need to learn to park on the street and maybe walk to and from the house. And then if they move to a city, you know, urban New York City, I used to walk about two or three blocks to park a car. So... Now, I think even if you took that concrete pad away and then turned it and lost some of your entry walk, you still have a parking lot in the front. If you had an 8-foot or 10-foot driveway, but you've got 16...

uh yeah yeah yeah

so i'm sorry about

that thank you camey

unfortunately i don't really have anything else to say differently it's a really hard place that you're in and

yeah no

really unfortunate i'm really sorry

totally fine yeah that's fine carrie okay carolyn

yeah i kind of am in the same boat um who parks in the garage

uh my wife's car we can only find one car in the garage since i have bites and a lot of storage shelvings and stuff so we can only fit one car

oh okay

yeah

oh i'm so sorry no it I just feel like if it was gravel, I might be okay with it. But the fact that you paved it and caused runoff, I... Yeah.

Yeah, we did initially want it to match with the asphalt look. I think somebody told us, our neighbor, one of our neighbors told us the asphalt is no longer... you know, somehow permitted as a driveway. You got to use concrete. No, I said

gravel, not asphalt.

Asphalt

is bad. So

the one that we have currently on our existing one, it's, I think it's an asphalt. Yeah, the original one. So at first wanted to match it so that, you know, that came through my mind before. Not having two separate, but somehow talking with a longtime Clayton resident says no longer permitted asphalt. So concrete it is. As much that concrete is more expensive than asphalt. But no, like I said, I appreciate you guys for hearing my case today.

Anything else, Carolyn?

No, we feel it. I mean, it's already built. That's kind of one of those situations where you want to be sympathetic, but you also don't want to set a precedent. So I'm sorry for you right now. Thank

you. David? Yeah, I'm sorry. I can't find a solution either. I'm looking at it and it just doesn't work with the way it's been constructed.

Sure, sure. You know, the idea of an asphalt... came up that would probably have looked better but it would still be non-conforming in many ways and it's also not allowed so uh that wouldn't have been a solution uh you know we are an architectural review board we're not here to redesign it so uh as you heard the staff recommendation is to not approve it as submitted and that it should be either removed or modified to remove the encroachment into the right-of-way and to comply with the coverage requirements. Also, if I understood it correctly, if you were to go ahead with it to be nonconforming, you would have to meet all the public works requirements. So I have a feeling we're going to approve that it be not approved. I'm sorry, whatever the terminology will be. And if you want, you can certainly work with the city and see if there's some design changes that can be made to overcome all the non-conforming. Sure.

I think that's what I would do. I would get in touch with Public Works, I guess, the city, and then sitting down with them and discussing if there's any design changes that I could do and resubmitting the permitting again. uh if it comes to i guess at least from my perspective would be a budget that you know that i paid quite i mean you know quite a lot of money for this driveway if it's need to redesign and everything like i said i probably just take it out and just stick with the existing driveway for the kids i think that's the best best avenue at least from my end at this yeah

Well, from what you described, you park one car in your two-car garage. Yeah. Which means that only half of your driveway needs to be open and available for that car to back out. It could probably park two more cars on the other half of the driveway where you have bicycles and other things in your garage. Right. Um,

well, yeah, I think it's pretty tight. You know, I have a minivan and my wife drives her, uh, sedan and then my, we have an SUV as well. So, uh, for a minivan is very tight. And then the sedan, that's why she parks inside. And then I did talk to her about not adding the driveway and just park on the side a little bit, but she's not a, not the best driver out there when she's backing out, you know?

I'm only saying that that's what it looks like it could be.

Yeah, yeah. I thought of that at first, actually, you know. And then that was my... But, you know, like I said, you know, I wish that I can bring good news to her. But it was, you know, it is what it is. Like I said, right now, it was our plan to, you know, at least invest. And I don't know aesthetically it looks nice or not, but we did actually... add a driveway pet a new driveway pet to the to the driveway but i i agree with you guys about looking like a parking lot you know like a big parking lot which does not conform with the you know neighborhood feel i totally agree with that you know and like i said you know i'm just first time in this kind of a hearing board for me i i've enjoyed every moment talking with you guys as well yeah

Well, you've heard our collective comments about it and you've heard the staff recommendation and we are going to take a vote on

it.

Carolyn, do we have a motion?

Okay. Carolyn, it's Stephanie. So you still need to make your motion in the affirmative so that the no vote is actually a no vote and a yes vote is actually a yes vote in favor of the driveway. Okay, I would be fine with you making it. So what you would want to do is you would make a motion to approve as submitted. And then that way, if somebody is not in favor of the driveway, they'll vote no. If they are in favor of the doorway as submitted, then they would vote yes.

Okay. I can make a motion as submitted.

Thank you.

Is there a second? Second. All in favor? Aye. It should be aye, correct? Yes. Aye is the negative.

No, aye is a positive that you're in favor of the driveway. That's a motion to approve. Yes, it's a motion to improve. So if you want to approve it, you're going to vote aye. But if you don't want to approve it you're going to

All in favor? Opposed? Nay. Did we do that right? Yes. Thank you. Okay. Well, we're sorry we couldn't work it out with you. Thank

you.

But thank you for coming.

Yep. I will follow up with Ryan as far as the next step. Yep. Cool. All right. Good evening, guys. Good night. Thank you.

Okay, we will move on to items three and four both of them are at 321 North Forsyth and we will start with the site plan review. And then we'll follow up with the architectural so hold on, you know the process.

Right. Subject property is located on the west side of Forsyth between Crandon Drive and Toptom Way. Property is zoned R2 and is in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The applicant is seeking to demolish the existing home and construct a new two-story single-family home. A full summary of site plan review criteria can be found in the staff report, and I'll provide some of the findings. HVAC units will be located on the northwest side of the home and enclosed in a wood fence. Trash will be stored within a wood fence enclosure at the rear yard adjacent to the driveway. Coverage is proposed to increase from 34.4% to 52.9%. Runoff is proposed to increase 0.56 cubic feet per second to 0.64. Downspouts will connect to a dry well at the rear yard with a pop-up emitter. Existing canopy coverage is 2,739 square feet with 1,149 to be removed. The plan is proposing to add 3,250 square feet of canopy coverage, which is 38 square feet more than the replacement required. 63.6% of plantings are proposed to be native. Staff are of the opinion that the project meets the criteria for site plan approval.

Okay, welcome. Thank you. Chairman Lichtenfeld, board members, city staff, along with my brother, Scott Melman, thank you for having ourselves along with our team of Lawrence Strotman from Lawrence Strotman Architecture and Eric Bietmeyer of Bowles Engineering to introduce our next project in the city of Clayton. 321 North Forsyth. This house will actually be our third new construction home in the last seven years on this block, and we feel like it'll provide the perfect capstone on that block. So without further ado, I want to turn it over to Eric Vietmeyer with Foles Engineering.

Good evening. I'm Eric Vietmeier, Foles Engineering, 10849 Indian Head Industrial Boulevard. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions that do have an exhibit for some drainage. That's

always the question. Exactly. So

as Ryan had stated, drainage is increasing, but we are mitigating that increase with the dry well in the rear yard. So the green The red is what was going to the rear green was going to the front. Same with the proposed to the rear to the front blue area of the roof is going to the dry well so that we have a zero differential going towards the rear. There was question during review as to the stormwater coming down the driveway and how we address that going onto the neighboring property. Similar as we did up the streets at, I believe it was 337, we are planning landscaping along the edge, on the far end of the driveway turnaround to arrest the velocity of the water going towards that property line. more than happy to answer any questions anyone may have.

So the landscape buffer on the south side or the rear side, that would hold the water back?

It's not holding the water back. It's arresting, it's slowing it down. It's not redirecting anything because we have a zero differential at that rear property line. Just with the turnaround pad, The edge of that pavement is close enough to the property line. I believe in this case we are six feet from the property line, which is better than what we had at 337. It's still a question of just that swath of pavement and stormwater coming across it. Landscaping there will slow that water down before it gets to the property line

What does it say? Zero differential.

There's zero increase in the runoff going to that rear property line because of the dry well.

So if it's a zero increase, that means we're not increasing by any amount. But it could be whatever was run off before could continue.

Right. Yes. Yeah. We have the exact same value of 0.31 CFS is the existing condition and the proposed condition.

At the edge of the driveway, is there any drainage, drain system there to collect any excess water?

No, no. Because we had the same runoff values, we didn't need to redirect or collect any of that water. So we're just using landscaping to slow the water down as it's leaving the property.

But if you were to put in a drain, a trench drain or something, then it could decrease the water going to the neighbors on Kingsbury.

Actually, it wouldn't do anything because that trench drain would still have to discharge in that backyard. So that same volume is still going to get there and just be concentrated then. At least with the driveway, it's spread out over the entire width as it's going through the landscaping, reaching the property line.

Well, as you know, I and probably several others are concerned about the water that goes to the neighbors that are lower on Kingsbury. And we have heard from several of them. And I think we have to look at it in depth for this site. Let's go around the room and see if there are other site-related issues. Bridget?

I mean, I don't have site-related issues other than the water. I mean, you know, I think it's – I think we all know it's becoming increasingly problematic with all this rain and, you know, it's just –

Of course, and that's why we do these drainage area maps so that we can evaluate the existing and the proposed conditions of what's going to the various property lines. And this condition, we have 0.31 cubic feet per second on the existing and 0.31 cubic foot per second for the proposed. So the neighboring properties won't see a difference.

what but i guess um and i know you can't speak to the other homes like around it but you guys so you guys also built or the home that's being built down the street or is it or is it done now the one that was

section of five homes with this one being the furthest but i think that would be south Oh, this is 321 we built 327 right there's one house in between ours than the one we built about six years ago and there's one that just got built not by us and then another home that we built. We built every third or every every third House of a block of five so first.

And it just sounds like there has been some water issues, you know, from those homes. I'm not like... So I'm just trying to understand how we are doing, I guess, a better job with this house as compared to the other ones that were built.

Water issues...

I think during

construction or are they during construction?

I think both is my under. So, I mean, I think during construction, I think we've got to do, there certainly has to be a better job of collecting the water. So if there is some crazy rain, there's

not. Yeah, we do have silt fence for everything that's downhill. And that's a maintenance item that I know Scott and Blair do address during construction. other than a silt fence to catch that silt-laden runoff and help slow it down. We could do straw bales, but I know the City of Clayton does not like straw bales.

And I can only say or add that I know that at least we're not aware for the two homes that we've already built and completed. That we were not aware of any water issues during construction or after for our two houses. I have heard stories of perhaps the other two that are newer there. And that might be all just, you know, stories and who knows exactly what or what house is causing this or that or the other. But I just know from our personal experience, we haven't had any issues with kind of stirring construction or since then that we're aware.

um some of the landscaping that you guys are using um i don't i'm i'm not i'm the aldermanic representative on the plan commission so this is not my background but the landscaping that i'm looking at here is that landscaping that will soak up the water or is it like boxwoods that aren't necessarily you know i just i know there's plantings that can soak up water as compared to just look nice or provide a landscape buffer so

i can't i'm not going to pretend to be a landscape expert either i do know that our landscaping company who's done pretty much all these houses is the one that put it together so i would hope that what they've designed and selected can't speak to them

and to and to piggyback that i'm scott melman blair's brother nice to meet everybody thank you for having us this evening so i'm not a professional landscaper either But I do know that one of the requirements with the city, and while we submit and get approved, is for the city staff to submit that landscape plan to a licensed landscape company who makes recommendations. Excuse me. And I know that there were some recommendations for changes from our original submittal to our revised submittal, which has been staff approved. So I can't really contribute to what was changed, but I can tell you that what was changed and approved by the staff obviously is acceptable. If there are other changes, obviously we're up to do what might be necessary to change that landscaping if that would help with deterring some of the water runoff.

Yeah, I mean, I guess before I would approve the site plan, I would just hope that we'd be able to identify. And Carolyn's a landscape architect, so she might be able to inform us better. But I just rather than and I appreciate you guys are using a lot of native species, which is great. You're adding to the canopy requirement. You know, I think some of the emails we got was concerned about taking mature trees down and you're only you're adding more trees or adding more canopy plants. I mean, they're not going to be mature for some time, but at least, you know, you're adding, you know, good native species, which is great. I just want to make sure that what we're adding can only help with water mitigation. Absolutely.

And I'm in for all of my brother and I and our whole staff here is, you know, we're in favor of doing that. We're not trying to cut any corners with planting things that shouldn't be there. We want to plant what's going to fit with the neighborhood and what's going to sit with the house. You know, it's ultimately going to satisfy the requirements. It's not exceeding.

I assume your position is there has been no water runoff problem in the back now and that with your construction, you're not going to increase the water flow. Correct. There's no increase leaving the rear property line. And so you're going to put in shrubbery and trees to slow it down regardless in the back. Correct.

Yeah. While the volume isn't going to change, the velocity, the intent is to slow it down.

And so when we see these emails, they're not responding to any existing problem?

Not aware of any existing problems. Nothing has been brought to our attention.

Another thing that I can add to this conversation is this dialogue. As Blair and I take what we do very seriously, because we were born and raised in Clayton, we love what we do. We love where we build. But one of the things that we do, I think, better than most builders, if not we're the best at it, not a biased response, but we go around and introduce ourselves to every single neighbor before demo starts. And we keep that dialogue throughout the duration of construction, because it's critical to have a neighbor that becomes a friend or a neighbor that becomes an ally for your next projects down the road. And we live and die by our work. So once we build that rapport with those neighbors, I think a lot of these questions could probably be answered. It's strictly, you know, it's strictly a thing that changes hard for some of these people. But if we can tell, if we do what we say we're supposed to do, we're supposed to what we do, what we're supposed to, you know, we shouldn't have any problems. And we haven't had any problems that I am aware of from our past projects.

Helen?

No questions.

Amy?

Can you explain to me just when you increase the impervious coverage by almost 20%, how you end up with 0%? Like, it doesn't change.

Blue dots on the back is a dry well. So that is, there's a 24-inch standpipe in there, four feet deep. There'll be rock, clean rock around it and under it gives us the volume that we need so that we can mitigate that increase in runoff for the standard 15-year, 20-minute rain event. So that's standard design storm for the entire MSD district. And that drywall is designed to handle that volume that's coming off of the rear of the house And that's what offsets that increase that we have so that we have a zero increase to that rear property.

Like, what if you made it bigger?

Right now, if we made it bigger, it would not do anything. It's serving the entire rear of the house. So if we made it a bigger, we would have to, you know, we would be taking either water that would be going to the street towards the front and then putting it into the downspout that then would go to the rear and That's when you would have the potential for an increase if something gets clogged or is not maintained properly.

So there's no design here where you could get like a negative percentage decrease and water

runoff, it's just zero? The only way to really do that would be Steve's idea of a trench drain along the driveway, but carrying surface water like that to a dry well just clogs them up faster because that's carrying more debris than what you would have off of a roof.

Just because we have received a lot of emails that water is a huge issue, especially in this area. It's something that we're hearing a lot more with all this increase of impervious coverage. And so it's just I like how you hit zero, but I'm just wondering, could we hit negative?

There are many projects where I do get to a negative, but on this one, just the way the roof lines are, it got us right to zero. Great, thanks.

Carolyn?

I think Kami covered it. No.

Do you have any landscape comments?

No. Thank you.

Okay.

David? I think I have the same questions as everyone else, and Carolyn, I hate to put you on the spot, but as far as the landscaping that's in that back corner, is this the type or the variety that might make an impact on that velocity? Are these the proper plantings if you're looking to slow the flow of water? It looks like it's four American hollies and a couple red buds and then some sort of

turf. No, you're right. Is that our purview though? Are we supposed to design this for these people?

I'm not asking necessarily as far as designing it but I was just curious as to whether or not the The turf, I guess, more than the plantings in that back corner in the driveway. That's the type of turf that's going to best slow the velocity of the water.

No, it won't.

Okay, can I mean can you can we perhaps like modify something just, I mean, maybe you guys can work with your landscape architect to kind of find some plantings that would be, you know, just a better. That would have a better ability to catch any water coming down the driveway.

Yeah, I certainly do not oppose to any of that. And I know it's not your guys' responsibility to make recommendations to us. At this point in time, I wasn't prepared to really talk about the landscaping, considering what we submitted was approved by staff. But if there are some recommendations, I'm happy to jot them down and submit it to the landscape company. And, you know, when we apply for a building permit, you know, assuming we get approved tonight with that condition, take that stuff into consideration. Yes.

Yeah, no. And I, I mean, I, you guys are reputable for my own. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I just think you understand that water is becoming a bigger issue now. So we're just trying, I'm just trying to, I think we're all just trying to respond to that. We're more than happy

to take that in consideration. Yes. And do what is necessary if that's going to help things. Yes.

A recommendation that I would have listening to what we have here is to require some sort of swale within that corner. A big part of the velocity side of the water rushing down the driveway is going to depend on how you actually build up that landscape bed there at the end or not. That's going to be a big part of whether it holds the water. So if you design it more with a rain garden style in mind where you actually have some sort of between the end of the driveway and that property line, that will allow a pooling effect of the water during a large storm event before it goes over the property line. Within the six feet that you have, you're not going to get a significant rain garden or anything. But if we do plant, have them plant and grade it with some sort of wall and then just revise the plantings with plants that can survive within a ponding area, that might have the effect that we desire.

Instead of a dip because my brain saying how do we train this because don't have fault to be able to drain a depression or you know basin what if that six foot strip was the mst compost a minute so. sponge.

You can provide more information on that. So I would just say to the effect of similar to a rain garden, and then we can bring our consultants in to review that because... Sure. I would say we just want something from them providing that this will operate to hold water. So if it's a rain garden or menden soil, you can provide that information for us as opposed to the way it is right now. Because right now, likely in a landscape bed, you're going to build that landscape up a few inches above the driveway. Then what happens is the driveway becomes the pond. Then people don't like that. So then they install their own versions of French drains and things that circumvent this landscape area that you've created. So what we would want is something in place, and we can add that to the recording of the drywall that they already do anyway. We'll add whatever language of the fix that you guys have proposed to that deed restriction. So that is

simply a landscaped feature rather than a designed civil feature. Landscape plan then be included with that deed restriction.

We would want whatever it is to be included in the de-restriction because if you're doing the amended soils, most homeowners in the area are not going to know what that is. Therefore, they would likely replace it at some point. So what you propose based on this, I'm comfortable with staff, this being a recommendation and we can use our consultants to help it. ensure based on this conversation that the desired goal is met and then we can work with you to get the language of that de-restriction so you can follow if they motion to approve that with this condition we can work with before you've actually applied for your building permits just to keep the process moving all right thank you

everyone understand that So really it would be more or less some sort of a rain guard from what you were.

You can say rain garden or similar design feature and we'll, we can accept the landscape. We'll let the designers here provide the fix for us and then we'll review against that. I think Stephanie might help us out with some language here.

Yeah.

Okay. Before we go any further, are there any questions from the audience? Hi. Sure, come up.

I'm one of the neighbors. I'm 8311 Kingsbury Boulevard and I'm Penny Alper. Hi. And you guys have been amazing, by the way. The way you treat all of our neighbors. I have been a proud property owner in Clayton just for a little almost five years now, but I grew up in St. Louis and came back from Atlanta. um, and bought a house in Clayton and love it. Uh, I have, um, planted a lot of trees in my yard because, um, I realized shortly after moving into my house that my backyard flooded, um, pretty regularly with rains. Um, so I hired a landscaper and came in and did an amazing job with beautiful trees and gardens and everything in the yard. And we're real pleased with it. Um, My neighbors to either side of me also are expressing similar concerns, one of whom is in Florida right now. So I'm sort of speaking as a neighbor for neighbors. We're the downward neighbors. We're beneath the construction. And I'm directly behind the proposed new construction. And we welcome a beautiful new home to our neighborhood. So it's not at all done with any ill will to wanting change and a beautiful home being built in the neighborhood. It's really an issue of water, like you guys have so appropriately focused on. Actually, the neighbor to my left has had significant water problems since moving into her home. And my trees have, I think, provided my home a lot of safety through these last few rains. But I still do get some flooding in my yard. So in looking at the plans, I did have just a couple of quick questions. One is I recognize that they are removing some mature trees. I am concerned that they may replace them with trees that are smaller and can't absorb the water. Since I was already having flooding, even with mature trees, I'm concerned that once those are removed, this zero addition to the water is probably a little bit... challenging to continue, particularly in light of the fact that they're going to be taking some of the grass away and just do the other absorption features. I also noticed on page two of their request and right under their project description where they're talking about the stormwater drainage, it looks like under the stormwater runoff that they are proposing that there will be a 0.08 CFS increase. So it does look like they are anticipating a small increase in water. I'm assuming, and I'm certainly not an engineer, but I'm assuming this blue area is going to be taking care of that increase. But again, with the removal of the trees and the additional absorption from the grass, we still are quite concerned and would hope that the committee today do whatever you can really within your power to try to appreciate and understand that we would like those modifications that you guys I think already have so appropriately focused on be implemented. So that prior to any approval, final approval, we can all rest assured that our homes will stay safe. All right, thank you. Thank you.

Eric, do you have any comments?

Nothing major other than just while I was sitting there listening to the neighbors' comments and concerns, which I appreciate. I was just kind of coming up with a little design in my head for this little depression off the end of the driveway. Maybe extend that as far as we can. I know it was one of the mature tree we're trying to keep in the backyard. And under that, have a French drain that then would go to the dry well. We can make that bigger. it's hard to calculate the volume of water that would be getting into there through a French drain, but being at a depression, stand a better chance of actually forcing more of that into the drywall. So then we do get to that negative volume, you know, negative increase. So that could be, that'll be on the plans that we would resubmit to staff if we're approved with such a condition.

I think we can go that way. Do we have any other comments from the audience? No? Please come up to the recording.

This is Penny Alper again, 8311 Kingsbury. I'm the downtown neighbor. My comment is the blue area, which is the drainage, what's addressing the drainage. Is there any way that that area could be funneled towards the front of the house since you're working on that landscape bed, which is going to slow the runoff to the street. Is there any way to take more of the water from that's channeling towards the back of the house to the front and hopefully save us because we're already getting flooded from the other construction and anything we can do to try to channel the water forward would be appreciated.

Eric, do you have any comment on that?

The site slopes to the rear. So it's kind of hard to push water out to the front when it all wants to go to the rear. Unfortunately, the request is impossible. Even though the blue

area is actually roof?

The blue area is roof, but it's going to a dry well in the rear yard. Yeah. And even the downspouts on that backside, to get them to come out to the front, you're having downspouts going diagonal along your building face, and that's not going to look good for anybody. Thank

you. You guys are saving one of the mature trees in the back, though? Yes.

Yeah, I believe the 18-inch tree in the rear right corner we're trying to save.

Okay. And then, but more, and again, I know you've increased the canopy requirement, but the more trees will be planted in the back that will eventually grow. I mean, they're not all going to stay miniature oaks or whatever. They're all there. Okay. All

right. We do have a hand raised. Ryan, could you let Mr. Matz in? Hello?

Can you hear me?

Yes.

Okay, thanks. My name is Paul Matz I live at 8327 Kingsbury. So when 337 was done I actually had Jim Willis come out twice because as they were excavating the water from that property eroded my walls subterranean Lee. So in the middle of summer I had a massive amount of runoff on my driveway. Currently, that property has a huge driveway that slopes down southward and then turns west and then terminates within about a foot and a half of my property without any containment. And it's unclear where the gutter system that's subterranean to Forsyth is going, but I suspect it's getting pushed downward further. So the end result now for me is I had about $5,000 in French drains that I had to put in around my property or else my basement was going to flood because it started leaching and my backyard was like a quagmire. And then also I have to redo the wall and I can send you the videos of all this subterranean water. I never met the people who I was aware that I was told that you know, they introduced themselves and that there were no problems during 337 when in fact Jim Willis came out to my property twice when I voiced concerns and complaints of water on my driveway. I'd be happy to show you the videos that I have and To redo my wall now, the wall around the driveway is water mitigation from the runoff of both 337 and 333, which were done. I'm upwards of about $16,000. So I would suggest that you look very carefully at the runoff. Water flows downhill. What was done at 337 and 3 33 in my estimation was not enough. And now I'm the one who pays the price. And so that firsthand is kind of what transpires.

Okay, thank you. Eric, any comment on that?

No, it's things that was never brought to my attention, so I don't have nothing I was able to prepare.

Yeah, his property, I don't believe, backs up to this one.

That's what I gathered, yeah.

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Scott? My only comment to that is, you know, if that, you know, I believe what you're saying, I think your name is Jim. Is that correct, Paul? Our apologies, certainly. I do know that there was another house under construction at the same time. Not that that makes the situation any better. It probably makes it worse. But if Jim Willis was called out to the job site, you know, and if that continuation happened, you know, I don't know necessarily that water is running onto your property without a call from somebody else. Not that it's a lesson for all of us to learn the hard way here because nobody wants to incur any cost. They shouldn't have to, but you know, like I said before, it's really important to me going forward to continue to get dialogue with all of my neighbors so that this type of thing doesn't happen. Cause we'll certainly do whatever we want in the middle of the night on the weekend to make sure that that water isn't running in the places that shouldn't be.

Okay. Thank you. Well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve is submitted. However, Stephanie, were you making some additions to it?

I think that based on the discussion, the motion would be to approve with the following condition. Applicant shall install a rain garden or similar feature at the base of the driveway, which is designed to hold water even temporarily and to slow the drainage of stormwater to the properties at the rear. Such feature shall be approved in advance by staff.

So moved.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

against. Okay, I think we've got that going and you'll work with staff on. Okay, thank you. Now we can move on to the architectural. And Ryan, will you lead off?

Layton Gardens commonly sees redevelopment with smaller homes being replaced by larger ones. The house is proposed to be 29 feet, six and a half inches tall. Navy ring homes include one built in 2003. It is three feet, six inches shorter and another built in 2006 that is four inches taller than the proposed. Proposed home designs include hip roofed front facing gables and arch covered entry similar to nearby homes. Grade of the lot results in the basement level being at grade at the rear and being below grade at the front, and the massing is such that both the front and the rear facades appear as two stories. Additionally, the design incorporates many windows and door openings, reducing the visual weight of the brick structure. It would be constructed of off-white brick with stucco and with charcoal architectural shingles. Windows would be white with stone sills and headers and gray shutters. A stone band would wrap the first floor ceiling. Exposed aggregate would be used for the front path and new driveway. The rear of the home would include the garage entry with an off-white steel door and a brick header, and it would also include a rear deck with metal railing. Staff are of the opinion that the masking materials are complementary to the surrounding area and follow the requirements of the RSU Single Family Dwelling District, Blakeney Gardens Urban Design District, and Architectural Review Guidelines. Staff agreement approval is submitted.

Okay, thank you.

Good evening, I'm Lauren Stratton. I'm the architect and I'm here to show you the materials and answer any questions on this new home. I don't think the rendering shows it too well, but we do have a little curve in the roof at the hip roof on the front of the house and black scuppers. I think it's a nicely detailed traditional house that will fit into the neighborhood. And I'm here to answer any questions you have.

Well, Lauren, as always, it's a well-detailed house. We expect that. But I am curious, in the staff report, it says a hipped roof with front-facing gables.

I think that's a typo.

Okay.

Yeah, I think we have some rear-facing

gables here. Yeah. Okay. That's good. it's a big house I think the way you've modulated the two stories in the front and the one story plus the lower level in the back really works very well and I think the neighbors behind will realize that this house will Tower over them much less than many of the other homes now when we go to the front of the house It is very traditional, and it's stuck between less traditional houses. And I know you have done less traditional designs before. Is this house spec, or is it for a specific client? It is spec.

The house on the right I designed in 2006 for a specific client.

The house looks a little flat to me compared to its two neighbors, which have much more articulation, more ins and outs. But I'm not saying that's a negative. I'm bringing it up to see what the total conversation is. I just read it as a very flat composition compared to many of the others on that street. As far as the materials go, they're great. The detailing, as always, is very good. You have kept the floor line not too high above the front, which helps keep the mass of the house down. And overall, I think it looks pretty good. Bridget?

Yeah, I mean, I agree with Steve. It is definitely a more traditional home. I think some of the homes on the northern side are more contemporary. It looks similar to me as some of the more traditional homes that are built closer to Maryland that do appear flatter and more traditional. But it's a lovely home, and I don't have any other comments.

Bob? I have no problem with it. Helen?

I do have a question. Excuse me. You show handrails at the front entry, but in the rendering and the elevation, there's no handrails.

I'm sorry, could you say that again?

You show handrailes in the side elevation. Right, but what will they be? They look different. Okay. No, I think that detail just gives it a little bit more depth. Steve, you were talking about it lacking depth.

Yeah.

I think when you see the black handrails and railings at the front, the four risers, they will need a handrail. A black one will bring that whole section of the building comes forward, but I think it'll bring it more visually forward.

Like arms outreaching?

Yeah. No, I think the black, it'll be a nice little accent. No, I like it. I like the roof, the angle slope. No, I have no problems. Looks good.

Amy?

Yeah, I'm in agreement. I think it looks really nice. I like the traditional style kind of mixed in. You don't get to see this very often. It's a beautiful home. Thank you.

Carolyn?

No comment. Agree.

David? Looks great. What color are the shutters?

They could be a light gray color.

it looks good uh it'll be a shame to lose i think that is the last ranch house on that street but times change so we do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted do we have a motion

i'll make a motion to approve as submitted

all in favor

aye

opposed Okay, Scott, one is groundbreaking.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very, very much.

We've come to the end of our agenda. Kami, any comments?

Nothing further.

Ellen?

Nothing further.

Bob? Good to be back. Bridget?

Nothing further.

Carolyn?

Nope.

David?

Nothing.

Brian? Following up on the conversation from last time regarding Starbucks, they have applied for their conditional use permit, so we should see them in the future. Where's this at?

You know,

I'm not sure but I'll pose that question to them.

If it's Starbucks Corporation, or if it's a franchise to operate as Starbucks

and the answer is, we don't know. We don't know. Wow.

Yeah, I think either way it's going to be the same product. So just also for the record, the, I did confirm that the neighbor of the Francis place did obtain permits for both the fence and their driveway. So then also look forward to seeing you guys tomorrow to discuss our comprehensive plan.

Nothing else this evening.

Okay, well, we will see you all in two weeks. I forgot what the number is, but it'll come. So meeting adjourned.