February 5, 2024 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Plan Commission for February 5th. If you have any electronic gadgets, please silence them. And we'd like to welcome Gavin Wickenhauser, our Mayor's Youth Advisory Council member. And with that, let's take the roll.

Steve Lichtenfeld. Here. Carolyn Gatiss. Bridget McAndrew?

Bob Denlow? Helen DiFate?

Bob Denlo? Helen DeFate?

Kami Waldman?

Amy Waldman?

David Gipson? Here.

David Gibson? Here.

Okay. We have minutes from the previous meeting on January 2nd. Are there any changes to it? Do we have a motion?

Second.

All in favor?

Opposed? Okay. Well, let's move on to new business. And the first item is 8125 Forsyth Boulevard. And I know the applicant is here. So we will start with Ryan.

The subject property is located on the north side of Forsyth Boulevard between Brentwood Boulevard and Maryland Avenue. The property is developed with the residence and hotel and has a zoning designation of special development district. The applicant is requesting sign modification for signage pertaining to the hotel's ground floor bar. The proposed blade sign would comprise blue aluminum with white and tan letters backlit with LED lights. The sign would measure five feet tall, one foot wide, totaling five square feet and exceeding the one square foot limit for blade signs. The sign would be located at the southernmost corner of the building and within the entrance's recessed patio. The sign would located roughly eight feet from the edge of the patio and 19 feet from the street. Nearby signage is commonly wall signage. Given the curved nature of the adjacent street and large scale of the building, the proposed sign is compatible with the surrounding context. Although blade signs are less common in the surrounding area, staff are of the opinion that the use of quality materials and setback from the street will result in the sign having a minimal visual impact. Staff recommend approval as submitted.

Okay. The applicant, come on up. Tell us who you are and add anything you'd like. Um, the sign, you can see both sides. That is correct. That is, uh, it lit only on the front side.

It will be lit on both sides. So both sides will have, we'll, we'll mimic the other. So both sides we'll have to push through letters and then both, uh, both sets of letters will illuminate on there. Uh, the letters themselves are relatively small that are on there, but it's, it's mainly to give the identification. So it will not let off any type of glare or anything of that nature. It's, it's not bright enough to do that.

Even though it's slightly larger than we would allow, I see no problem. I think it fits very well on the building and certainly doesn't look too large. So I have no further problem. Bridget?

ellen

i like it but i do have a question why is the a in gold

That is a trademark I do believe that they have on another establishment that is similar. I believe it's the bar. I think it's done the same way. So I think it's to kind of gel all of their little establishments together as to, I guess, one commonality.

Yeah, identity. No, I was just curious. I think it looks good. Placement is good. And I like the fact that it will readily identify it as opposed to people, especially driving, looking and, you know, they're driving. Correct. No objection. Thank you.

Amy?

I think

it looks good. I have no issues.

Perfect. Thank you. Carolyn?

I have no objections either. Thank you.

David? No questions or comments.

Okay.

We do have a recommendation to approve as submitted. We have a motion.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted.

All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. Thank you all very much for coming. We'll move on to the second item, and that's number two, Tuscany Park. And I believe you're the applicant. Good. Okay, we'll get started.

Ryan? The subject property is located on the north side of Tuscany Park, a semicircular street intersecting the east side of Big Bend Boulevard. The property is owned R2 and is developed with a single-family home. The applicant is seeking approval for front yard alterations, including a renovated driveway, reconfigured sidewalk, and new landscaping. Homes along Tuscany Park comprise a combination of unique front yards, including a variety of driveway and landscaping materials. A component of the renovated driveway includes a parking pad adjacent to the southwest corner of the home. Parking has typically not been permitted within front yard setbacks. However, the parking pad would be located behind the front setback line and would be surrounded by landscaping. The proposed configuration would remain consistent with parking and paving requirements and would likely result in a minimal visual impact due to the surrounding landscaping and setback from the streets. Much of the existing driveway will remain and with matching concrete used in expanded areas. Bluestone is proposed for three driveway bands, the driveway border, front path border, and for pavers along either side of the front patio. The existing front porch will be demolished and reconstructed with new entry stairs. A Missouri limestone retaining wall will front the new porch. Landscaping beds are proposed throughout the front yard. Staff have the opinion that the proposal will complement the Tuscany Park neighborhood and result in a minimal visual impact. Staff recommend approval is submitted.

Okay, thank you. The applicant, come on up. Identify yourself and add anything you'd like.

I'm bronco Marissa can property owner and we're referring to it has a primarily a parking. space or area. It really is just a pullover area. We have a single driveway that narrows and goes to the backyard. And we can never have more than one car on that driveway if somebody were to stop or want to enter the house. This is really more deemed not to have for permanent parking, but a pullover area where there'd be access to the back if cars had to go in or out. We really don't like cars in the front. We prefer to have them in the back. in addition, the staircase and the front porch are going to be redone. It's presently has significant water damage underneath that has the staircase and that front porch down about eight to 10 inches. And we're going to fix all that. And at the same time, make it more easier to have access to the front stairs and to the front porch, especially for elderly people like myself. So

Is the entire porch coming off and a new porch going on?

Correct.

Okay. It looks like you will have more steps coming down in the new scheme than in the existing.

Staggered, yes. Easier going up and down the steps.

And from your description of the driveway, is it actually wide enough to have a car parked and another one pass?

No, and in fact, the driveway actually is going to be widened just a little bit, even on the single lane. So when you get out of the car, if you were on the driveway, you don't step into wet grass or whatever. It's a very thin, not very narrow, I should say, driveway.

Well, the rest of it and the landscaping looks beautiful, but I'm not a landscape architect, and you will hear from one in a few minutes. Bridget?

it.

No, I think it looks good. And it is an improvement. I think the existing porch really it looks toward the side as opposed to looking toward the front, even though you're coming down to the driveway. So I think this is a good improvement.

Amy.

Yeah, I have

no

concerns. It

looks good.

Carolyn.

I think it looks great. I had a couple of questions about the bluestone itself. Um, I think you're going to need to make sure that the base course is pretty strong and compacted in order to hold that up because car wheels will jump over, and I think it'll crack it. It's not the thickest of material. It's not not the most durable material. While it's beautiful, I think that you might be disappointed. In about five years, you're going to have cracks everywhere from settling or tires running over it. Just be careful about that. That's all I had to say about that. And then when it comes to the liriope, I would say go to 12 inches on center. Honestly, if you want it to look complete in the next like two years, it needs to grow together. Otherwise, you're going to have weeds, you're going for not much more than doing it 18 inches on center, I would just go for it and you'll be much happier in the long run. They'll support each other as opposed to being out there trying to survive without any friends close by. That's the only way I know how to put that, frankly. I typically go for putting plants a little bit closer at first, not over taxing them by putting them too close that their final growth size is in jeopardy, but at least close enough that they can fill in without having to mulch every year. So that's my advice to you. But otherwise, I have no other comments. I just want you to be wary of the blue stone. I come from Connecticut and we use blue stone and flagstone and all of that there. And I don't know that we've ever used anything a long driving route because it will crack. So that's it.

OK, David. I don't have anything to add.

Hey, do you have any other comments? No, I don't. OK, well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted second.

All in favor.

Okay, good luck. Thank you.

Hey, we're moving on quickly. We're up to number three. And that's 46 Hillvale Drive. The applicant is here. And Simon will start with Ryan first.

The subject property is located on the southeast side of Hillvale Drive between Crestwood Drive and Broadview Drive. The property is zoned R2 and is developed with a single family home. The applicant is seeking to construct an addition on the northeast side of the home. Homes in the surrounding area range from one and a half to two stories, with additions commonly in the rear. The second story of the subject property home presents as a half story in the front and then reaches full height further back. The addition would be a single story except for a portion of the rear containing an elevator. The location of the addition will be visible from the street. However, the use of a single story at the front preserves the home's shorter profile. The existing primary structure reaches two stories and primarily comprises red brick with stone and shake siding as accent materials. Brick matching the existing structure is proposed for the facades of the two-story section of the addition and from the base of the windowsills to the foundation on the front and side facades. Stucco is proposed between the base of the windowsill to the roof on the front and side facades. The side facades measure 33.4% stucco. Although this exceeds the secondary material limit of 25%, stucco is common as both a primary and secondary material on surrounding homes. A shake siding roof gable and stone foundation are proposed for the front facade to match the original home's materials. The foundation of the side and rear facades would be exposed concrete. The architectural review guideline limits exposed concrete to a maximum of 30 inches in height. The concrete foundation would begin at 32 inches in height in the front and would increase as the driveway descends to the rear of the property. Homes in the surrounding area commonly bring their primary material to grade or have a stone at their foundation. Exposed concrete is not common in the surrounding area on facades visible from the street. Staff are of the opinion that the stone proposed along the front exposed foundation should be continued along the side and may be stepped as the grade drops. Exposed concrete at the rear of the property and at the two-story section would not be visible from the street and would likely have a minimal visual impact. staff recommend approval with the condition that the single story section side facade shall be revised to extend the stone used on the front

okay thank you good evening

all

right Tell us who you are.

Well, I'm Simon Egelnik. I'm a homeowner there. I've lived there for almost 40 years. We want to stay in the house. And in order to stay in the House, we're going to have to put an elevator in. And so we thought, well, if we're going to do an elevator, put a way to get to the elevator. So we ended up with a room on the side of the house, mostly to get to the Elevator, but it'll also be a first floor utility room. So we'll be able to have a washing machine up there and so forth and reduce the need even to go down to the basement, but whatever.

Well, from the staff's recommendation, I certainly agree with that to carry the stone in lieu of the concrete across the front. And you might want to turn it just around the corner also. I've got no problem with that.

uh the uh the house is unusual in that in that neighborhood most of the houses had stone foundations and this one was actually it was the construction shed for the subdivision when they first built it back in 24. and that uh it was unusual that it actually has a concrete foundation so and the concrete foundation goes all the way down on the back so what we did we did our previous edition We tried to match that with concrete all the way down, but I've got no problem with the brick or stone facing or something on the concrete.

Really, the only other comment I had was on the elevations where we see the new brick matching up to the existing brick. It probably will be noticeable. We don't see any construction joint in there, but... I know it will occur.

Well, we actually... The back part of the house is actually itself an addition that we put on shortly after we moved in back in 84. And we got very lucky in that the bricklayer who was doing it happened to find a house that they were tearing down in North St. Louis that exactly matched the brick that we had in the house. So I don't think we're going to get that lucky this time, but it matches perfectly. You can't even tell that there's a seam there. whatever. We're going to try to... I'm not sure exactly how it's going to look, but I'm hoping that we can get some brick that matches very closely to the...

Well, you know, hindsight is always better. You should have saved some brick, thinking you might do another edition.

Well, we saved a few, but not enough, I don't think.

And then one functional question. It looks like you'll have an elevator with two doors.

Well, it will be, yes, it will be 90 degrees on one of them and 90 degrees the other way on the other two. So the garage level and the second level will point into the house. The middle level will point into utility room. That just has to do with there was a There was a potential way to get into the house, but you had to end up losing some windows and whatnot in order to make it happen. So that's kind of why we decided to go with the utility room. It doesn't disrupt the old house quite as much. OK.

Otherwise, looking at it from the street, I think once it's up and completed with the stonework along the front, it would fit in fine in the neighborhood. So I really have no other comment. Richard?

Ellen?

I do have a comment about the elevator tower shows excuse me. 2 sides are brick.

The way the way I'm not sure which version of drawings you guys have there were several different versions as we revised it from staff recommendations, but the back is set up as brick the side that faces the driveway is brick the front only has a little bit that goes above the roof line and that'll have to be either stucco or some other material because there's no way to support brick up at that level because it'll be essentially a room underneath it so

right i would recommend putting shake

okay

to match the other Parts of the house where you do have a wall that underneath will not support. It's just a partial wall.

Yeah, we actually have that on the very front. The leaves are the very front of the addition as well.

It would pick up that because according to the elevations, you will see that from the street.

Right.

So I would put shake there, and then the brick needs to turn the corner.

Right.

Yeah. And let's see. Also, the one story part of the edition shows brick on the rear and then the side and the front are stucco

um the the idea again i'm not sure because there were several versions of the drawings but the uh the addition uh John Gerstle, Is the along the driveway side it stops about six feet short of where the actual back of the whole addition and and there's a it zigs in. And then back the elevator shaft itself is six foot by six foot and it's kind of stuck on to the back of the addition, so the idea is that. kind of all the way down and then around it's all brick basically everything from the driveway side is brick in on the backside is brick the only part that's not break is the part right on right on the very front above the roof line.

Okay, the. Warner. on the side elevation not those two okay that corner of the one-story portion where it goes back there's a wall that goes back and then there's the elevator tower that corner you've got brick meeting stucco yeah That will be stucco? That's brick. You're going to need to work out that corner. Yeah, most likely the brick will need to turn the corner.

The people we talked to about it said the reason that there's stucco there is they said that if you're going to have windows there, The fair number of windows that you're going to end up messing up the brickwork is going to get very complicated in and out of all those windows and. It was just easier to do so, I think that the. sort of question. i'm sorry.

Okay. No, that's a corner that needs to be resolved.

I don't think it's going to be a problem, even if it were an end view of the brick. I don't it would look terrible, but probably some sort of a bullnose or something there that would make it look good.

Yeah. My last question is If you're using APHIS, you're going to have joints. And those are not shown.

And again, part of the deal is we did try several different materials. The original version was just going to be all brick. And then they said, the construction people said, well, you know, putting the windows in and better to have that be stucco. So I assume they had some notion of exactly how they were going to do that.

I would say go all brick.

OK.

I understand economics, but I don't think BRIC is going to give you the problems that they're alluding to.

The only place where I saw that brick was a problem was the part above the roofline. That part I saw. The rest, it's not that significant. Frankly, putting brick on the concrete is going to be more expensive than redoing that stuff with stucco. like i said the guy just said it was going to be easier to do with stucco so we figured and we have we already have stucco we have a bay window on the back of the house from the original house that was stucco so i didn't have any problem with the idea of stucco and i assume again the i i do know that we're not doing drive it or anything like that none of the okay so we're talking about uh probably something a true hearty board or something like that with stucco on it

Okay, there is a hardy board that has a stucco look.

Okay.

But that's going to be panels generally.

It's going to look like siding probably.

Yeah. That's going to be a different look than what is shown.

I think what we had in mind was a concrete board like a hardy board and then stucco over that. that is like i think that's what we have in the back as well i think that in the back again it's original to the house but i think that that's a uh a mesh a metal mesh with the stucco right on it so i think that that

given the age of the house it most likely would be a mesh

again uh i hadn't really thought great deal other than that i knew it was not going to be drive it i just didn't really think that much about you know the the details of the stucco but i guess uh and you know if it has to be brick you know that's it's not the end of the world but construction guy said that uh you know okay i don't know i'll leave it to you guys to decide what needs to be done

I would do brick if it were mine.

Okay.

But it's yours. Nothing further.

Amy?

So I don't mind it. If he does it where it's seamless, is that not a possibility? Like when you're with the installation of that, if you do that cement backer or cement board where you always have seams, even if it's over it?

If you're doing a true stucco, then you will put some seams in, but not a whole lot for expansion contraction. But if you're doing ethos or over a panel, that's going to telescope through. It'll come through. You'll see. Sure. And the easiest way to deal with it, the best way is to acknowledge the panels, the joints. But then

you've

got a pattern of lines.

I don't know if it matters, but the window placement there has to do with the placement of appliances and so forth on the inside of the utility room. So there's some flexibility as far as exactly where those go. But, I mean, conceivably we could, you know, especially if it went with mesh, you could do, you know, stop at the windows, stop again at the windows, that kind of thing to give it a little bit of room. And that would maybe visually...

I think it's something to be aware of when you're doing that. Do you have an idea of what color you're going to do the stucco?

Again, hadn't gotten that far. All around the neighborhood there's white stucco. On the back of our house is white stucco so white would be kind of the default but the other option would be if it looks too bad you'd paint it brown and have it kind of match the brick. The main reason for going with it is cost and And frankly, the one guy we talked to, the stucco might end up being more expensive than the brick by the time we're, because you had to find a craftsman with, you know, skills that, you know, maybe don't exist anymore. So anyway, that. Yeah,

I would just make them like layout, like, you know, if you are going to see the scenes, make sure that you are aware of what that looks like. before considering that.

I

think it will be impactful on this, you know, especially on the site elevation from a homeowner standpoint.

Well, the home itself is kind of a hybrid design. I'm not sure exactly what the official name for that design is, but the I'm not sure whether maybe because it was the construction shed, they tried all different materials to show what they were like, but Again, I would say if it turns out to be cheaper to do brick or everything, I probably would do that. And if you guys think it's a good idea, just do that and be done with it rather than go around it. Again, the difficulty is just finding somebody who can do the stucco. Find a guy who does that every day. If you go to California, you find people all over the place who can do it, but not so much here.

Carolyn.

Yeah. One of the questions I had, I noticed that you're, and I probably missed this in the drawing, so I apologize, but where does the HVAC and all of the utilities leading to the house that normally is on that side, where are they being relocated to?

On the back side of that, on the picture that's up right now, the left end of that where the notch goes in. They're going to hang on the wall at that point.

Okay, because you're going to need a little bit. I mean, with an addition, you're going to larger. Right, right.

Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, that's fine. No, you were agreeing. Yeah, I was saying, so the idea right now is we have two compressor units sitting out there sort of where the addition is now. Those would hang on that back. And the idea is to put a mini split in there, which would put a third compressor unit on the outside hanging there. And there's plenty of room for that. Yeah.

Okay, and what kind of screening are you thinking for that then?

They're going to be in the back of the house, sort of inside of a notch. Do we have to have outside screening for them? I hadn't really thought about that.

I think they do, no? Anna?

Yes, units need to be screened from the right-of-way and adjacent property. I

guess we'll put a little fence there. There's room, so It's not a problem.

Okay. Well, that was my main question. And I applaud you for staying in the house that you love so much and making it accessible for older age. I wish my parents would do the same dang thing in Connecticut, but they're stubborn. So good for you. I'm happy to see this happen. So that was the only question I have. Thanks.

i just say i've been i've been described as being stubborn staying in the house so anyway

yeah but if it's your home and you have an attachment then you should be able to stay in it yeah thank you

nothing okay uh we have a staff recommendation and it uh talks about the side facade um extending the stone along the front. And you agree to that? Correct? Yeah. Okay. Any other changes that we need to incorporate? No. Okay,

I think the screening of the the

units.

Yeah, yeah, that should go on there.

Well, Carolyn, do you want to make a motion?

Yeah, I'll make a motion to approve with extending stonework on the side facade base, right? We're talking about the base area. Yes. And including the screening of any HVAC units with fencing or landscape. That's it.

I have a question about that. Are we talking about stone along the driveway or are we talking about stone just on the front?

I'm sorry. Just the front facade. Okay. You'll probably have to turn the corner. Right. Okay. Okay. I just didn't know.

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I misspoke. Let me amend that then. I make a motion to approve with the conditions to have the front facade have a stone base to match the existing front and turns the corner of the new addition and And then also to have screening of any HVAC. Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Well, good luck, Simon. We're glad that you and Debbie are updating the house to live in it for a long time.

I hope so. I hope so we'll be riding the elevator.

Yeah, good.

Oh,

yes.

We hear you,

You're welcome. Okay. That brings us to the end tonight. Gavin, do you have any comments or questions? Not tonight. Okay. Kami? No comments. Helen?

No comment.

Bridget?

No comment.

Carolyn?

No comments.

David? No comments. Easy night. Ryan? Nothing. Ana?

I just want to say thank you to those for participating in our discussion last Friday, or was it two Fridays? Whenever that was. Sorry that we missed you, Steve. It was a good discussion, but we did have a recording of it and we'll be able to fill you in.

I appreciate that. I was stuck in the Sonora Desert and I had no connection at all. Stephanie?

Okay. Thank you, everyone. We'll see you in two weeks. I think it's a Tuesday next time.

Yes. For the holiday, it's on Tuesday.

Right. Okay. We're adjourned.

Take care.