November 6, 2023 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Planned Commission ARB for November 6th. Please silence all your electronic gadgets, and we'll get going. Ryan?

Steve Lichtenfeld? Here. Carolyn Gatiss?

Here.

Bridget McAndrew?

Bob Denlow? Here. Helen DeFayt?

Bob Denlo? Here. Helen DeFayt?

Jamie Wallman?

David Gipson? Here.

David Gibson? Here.

Okay, we have a very long minutes from the previous meeting on October 16th. Are there any changes? Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes.

All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. Let's move right on to new business. First item will be 8420 Kingsbury.

The site is located on the southeast corner of Kingsbury and Gay Avenue. It is zoned R2 and is in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The scope of work includes the construction of a new front terrace bordered by a stone wall that is topped with a metal railing. A portion of the terrace would be covered. The planting bed is proposed to line the exterior of the stone wall. Materials would match those on the existing home. The scope work would also include a three and a half foot hedgerow with masonry columns at the perimeter of the property. Materials comply with the R2 district and the architectural review guidelines. Front porches and fencing within dual frontage are less common, but are not out of character for homes in Clayton Gardens. The use of high-quality complementary materials is consistent with other terraces and fencing in the neighborhood. Staff are of the opinion that the terrace and fencing will result in a minimal visual impact, and staff are of the opinion the hedgerow will result in a minimum visual impact and should maintain a height limit of 3.5 feet as not to obstruct intersection sightlines and to maintain some congruence with the open character of the Clayton Gardens neighborhood. Staff recommend approval with the condition that the hedgerow be maintained as not to exceed 3.5 feet in height.

Okay, thank

you.

You coming up, Lauren? I'm Lauren Strutman. I'm the architect for the project. And I'm here with Jim Miller, my client. He's going to answer some questions too, if you have any. And I think Ryan just described pretty fully this project. project, which is simply a new covered porch on the west side of the house, an open terrace on the front, and some driveway gates, and kind of a hedgerow around the perimeter of the property, which is all shown on that Bowles site plan. We're matching the existing materials of the house, and Jim and I are here to answer any questions.

Okay. Well, welcome. Thank you. Do you have anything you'd like to add?

No. Any questions you might have?

Okay. It's a beautiful house, and I think what Lauren has designed fits in beautifully with it. But you elected only to cover the west side, not the front.

Why? Mainly because I don't think covering the front would actually fit. Just the front elevation. It would look a little weird. Plus, I'd like to have the option to sit out in an open area. Option of sitting in a... Farther exposure on the front would be nice.

The house actually has a one-story sunroom on the east side, and this one-story porch kind of matches what's going on on the east end of the house.

I agree that it wouldn't look good going across the front, but I wanted to hear a reason.

Okay.

My other question was, and Lauren, I think I didn't see it. Oh, I see the 30-foot building line. on one side, but you were allowed to go over that.

We're allowed to go 10 feet in the front with an open uncovered terrace and we're only going eight feet in the front and we are in compliance on the west side too because the house being a corner lot had a little more room on that side of the building.

Okay. Is that hedgerow there right now? I didn't think I saw it. So it would be all new and basically encircle the two street frontages.

Four of us, yes. And the columns.

And you're in agreement with the staff recommendation about the hedgerow height? It looks very good to me, but Carolyn, I'll pass it to you.

Fine. I mean, I don't think it's difficult to keep boxwood pretty low, so that shouldn't be a problem. Will any of the sight lines on the turn into Kingsbury be hindered by any taller shrubs there? Is it far enough away? Okay. It's hard to tell from the drawing. Other than that, I really didn't. I think it looks great.

Richard?

Yeah, I mean, I think the porch will be really nice. And I think the front, it's a beautiful house. I remember looking at it ages ago when it was first built. It's very pretty inside. And I think this will add a lot to it, especially in the front. Three and a half feet still seems kind of high to me to have a hedge all the way around. Would you imagine that it will be that high? I don't know. I just kind of, I just kind of think about how, I mean, I'm like five feet seven. So I'm just trying to imagine like, it's pretty tall hedge to kind of like.

Yeah. I'm actually just, I'm looking to create a formal but open, formal but open park-like environment. That's kind of what I'm going for. So. I think having the columns at the corners and whatnot, and then the edge connected. I know three and a half is what the ordinance is for site, line of site. That's kind of definitely not going to be starting off with three and a half.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I you know, I just I don't want it to I don't want to mimic like a fence. You know what I mean? That's what I don't want. I think like when people are walking by, they're kind of like not that they're trying to peer into your yard, but I just wanted to remain. I mean, it's a very open neighborhood. I just want it to remain looking that way. So but I understand that you're right on the corner and I'm sure would appreciate a little bit of enclosed space. So, I mean, those are my concerns, but I'm not necessarily going to. I'm not in favor of it.

Bob? No concerns for me. It looks very nice before. It'll look nicer afterwards.

Ellen?

No questions. It

Amy?

Okay,

The plant, not the wall,

of a stone border on it.

Thank you. David questions. I have one other comment. You are putting in gas lanterns, not electric. Correct.

And it's the standard that's used pretty much everywhere. I actually have electric on the house. My electric one's on my timer.

Okay. And you've already agreed to the staff recommendation. Do we have a motion? Oh, yeah. No hands up anywhere.

Okay. I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. Thank you. Good

luck. Thank you very much.

Okay, we'll move to item number 27822 Bonham. And I see someone is online. So Ryan, if you'll start it off.

Subject property is located on the south side of Bonham Avenue between South Central and South Beamiston. The property is zoned high-density commercial and is located in the Central Avenue Transit Oriented Development District. This site is the location of Carbon, a new restaurant in the Cigar Lounge, not yet open at the time of the writing of this staff report. The applicant is proposing to paint much of the exterior facade black, including facade wall, columns, ceiling, the brick patio wall, and then install new black lighting fixtures with bronze accents. Black is a darker, less common color on the existing building's facade, but is more common in the surrounding area. Staff are of the opinion that new color will have some visual impact, but is not expected to disrupt the facade's architectural cohesion with the existing structure and surrounding area. Staff recommend approval as submitted.

Okay, thank you. Gina Gamblin, do you have anything to add?

I don't really. Carbon Members Club, thank you for hearing this tonight on the agenda. Carbon Members Club is simply asking for the approval of painting the existing brick to match the EFIS that's already been approved for change of color.

Okay. Is it a private members club?

It is.

It is. Okay. Well, we're not that I just needed that for clarification. I have no problem with the black on it. I think it'll tie it together fine. But right now there's a sign up there that says copia.

Sure. That's just because we haven't had our signs redone yet. We're in the process of having them fabricated and should have them up soon.

Okay. Carolyn?

The only concern I have with a pure black paint is you're going to see a lot of dirt very quickly, but that's just a comment. I'm not going to say that I wouldn't approve it, but you'll see splatter like salt spray or whatever pretty quickly. on black paint might start to break down a little bit. But that's just a comment. But otherwise, I think it's going to look good.

Richard?

I don't have any comments.

Bob? I have some mixed feelings about painting these brick walls black and all, but they're going to be painted white? I thought it says black here.

No, I think, well,

Gina,

clarify. I thought they were going to match the white. We are

proposing that they're painted black, actually. You're

bringing one color to the table and you're just going to paint everything black, right?

Well, it's shades of black, so it's really awful red. very outdated. And when you put just one coat of black on it, it appears to be more like shadowed black. So it's not just solid dark black. No, it's black with a bit of mixed gray. It's just one coat.

It's very tasteful. Is this a one-of-a-kind restaurant, private club, or do you have others under your control?

It is. It's the start of a, it will be in Nashville next. So it's the start of franchise. This is the first of its kind here in the St. Louis area.

Okay. Well, if the owner isn't complaining, I'm not going to complain then. I have a little concerns, but I wish you good luck.

Thank you.

Ellen?

I would like some clarification on where the black is going to be. It'll be on me if this so on what has been submitted. The 3rd page in the lower right corner shows a white wall. I presume that will be black

Sure. So we've already been approved, I believe, for the EFIS. What we're proposing now, what we're in question of is the brick. So the white railing will remain white and it will be only the red that will be changed in color.

Okay. So when I look at it from bottom, I will see black from the left-hand corner where the brick begins to the steps and into your restaurant, and then to the right of those steps, how far will the black extend?

Well, if you'll look closely, the brick is already different. So they've already painted the other side of what is now known as CJ Muggs. In the top right-hand corner, the star where I've got it starred will be what will be painted. And again, it's not a solid black. This will be a private club that'll be very tastefully done. So improvements only. We plan to even put red carpet out there at times and do valet parking. And it'll be very upscale.

Okay, so that your black brick wall will extend beyond the steps to the go to the west of the steps. And that's where CJ mugs awning is shown.

Um, actually we were just going to go up to where their brick is already changed. So their brick has changed to, um, like a solid, I don't know, maybe like a really don't know what color that is, to be honest, maybe like a solid light brown, beige-y color. Yeah. If you'll see the difference. So it's very different now.

Okay. So the owner of the building and CJ Muggs is okay with the black extending where they haven't painted the existing brick?

Correct. I've already submitted their signatures of approval.

Okay. No other questions. Thank you.

Yeah,

We're going to put a little casing so it differentiates.

Ryan's going to pull up Google Maps. There's actually a slight column in the brick right now, so it'll be easier to see on Google Maps, I think, than on

the... Thank you, Ryan.

Anything else, Kami?

I had one more question. The black paint is a matte paint. Not sure it is. Okay, it is.

David. I have any questions.

Ryan has pulled up the area where the black paint would go. Got it.

Oh, yeah, that helps. Were there any other hands up? Okay. Any comment from the audience? Well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted

Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay. When will you have this finished, Gina?

The end of the week with the approval.

Oh, okay. Well, you've been approved. So good luck with it. And we're happy to see that spot being reoccupied.

Thank you.

Okay, we can move on to the third item 7827 Davis drive. And the yep we'll have the staff report first.

The subject property is located on the north side of Davis Drive between South Central and South Beamiston. The subject property is zoned R2 and is developed with a two-story single-family home. The Applin is seeking to construct a single-story residential addition on the west side of the home that will contain an accessory dwelling unit. A full analysis of review criteria can be found in the staff report. To summarize, staff do not anticipate adverse impact with regards to noise... light, pollution, traffic, parking, utilities or emergency services. Staff are of the opinion that the proposal meets the requirements contained in the regulations governing ADUs. Staff recommend that the Planning Commission recommend approval to the Board of Aldermen with the following conditions. One, all conditions of Chapter 405 Article 2, Section 405.330 shall be adhered to. And two, the applicant shall record a deed restriction pursuant to Item 3 under criteria for review with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds Office and submit proof of the required deed restriction to the city prior to issuance of a building permit.

Okay, thank you. The applicant, come on up. Identify yourself.

Yes, well... The builder is on the line, I think, virtual.

Mr. Roberts?

Yeah, Tom Roberts.

Okay. Hello, everyone. Tom Roberts here. Do you have anything to add to the staff report? I do not. Okay. And right now we're just looking at the conditional use permit.

Correct.

Okay. Do you have anything to add? No, I don't. Okay. This used to be a two-family house. Correct. And you converted it to a single family many years ago. Correct. Okay. And... This looks like a mother-in-law's unit? That's the plan, yes. Downstairs bedroom. As far as for the conditional use permit, I have no problem. I think it fits in. The size is right. It works with the house that's existing. And Do you agree with the two staff recommendations?

Yes, I do. Okay.

Did you receive a copy of this?

No, I have not, but I did not receive a copy of that.

Okay. Reports were sent out on Friday, but I can re-forward those to you. My email? Yeah, I'll send those back to you. Okay, thanks. Okay.

Carolyn?

I have no comments. Thank you.

Richard?

Tom, I was just wondering, so you and your family are going to occupy the unit? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I think it looks nice.

Okay. Yes. Okay.

Bob? Tom, is your mother-in-law really going to live

there? You're talking about my wife?

Yes. I was going to follow up and say, do you want us to approve it or not?

Excellent

point. I don't have a problem with it. Thank

you.

Ellen?

No problem.

Thanks. Amy? David? No questions or concerns. Do we have a motion on the conditional use permit to move it up to the Board of Aldermen?

I'll make a motion to approve with the two staff recommendations.

Second. All in favor?

Opposed? Okay. Well, that's the first part. So now we'll go into the architectural review. Ryan?

The applicant is seeking to construct a single-story residential addition on the west side of the home that will contain an ADU, and it would contain a bedroom, sitting room, kitchen, and bathroom. As proposed, the design is consistent with the size and location of additions in the Davis Place neighborhood. Brick veneer matching the home will clad 71% of the exterior. The roof gable will comprise 29% of the additional facade. It will be finished with stucco to match the home's second floor. The ARB guidelines limit secondary materials to 25% of a facade. Although the proposal exceeds the secondary material requirements, staff are of the opinion that the proportion is appropriate due to the homes used of stucco on the second floor. Architectural shingles are proposed to match the existing roof. Staff are of the opinion that the use of matching materials and architectural style are complementary to the existing structure will result in minimal visual impact. A full landscape and tree protection plan are not required for the proposed project based on its size. There is an existing tree located near the proposed addition. The applicant should verify if any protection measures are necessary to ensure the health of the tree. And if the tree is to be removed, staff recommend that a new tree be planted on site. The plan depicts plantings in front of the addition just below the bedroom windows. The existing structure and proposed addition are highly visible from Davis Drive and South Central Avenue. The existing landscape wraps the base of the structure and should be continued around the addition to integrate into the new construction. Staff recommend approval with the condition that the plans be updated to reflect intended landscaping.

Okay, thank you. This is architectural review, how it looks and the materials. Do you have any further comment? No, but I see the architect is on. Right, I do. Mr. Strode, if you have any comments.

Hi, can you guys hear me? Yes. No, I have no additional comments, but I'd be again happy to answer any questions that you guys might have.

Okay. I had only one question, and that is on the left side or west elevation, there's no window. Was that decided to be that way?

Yes, that's intentional. We kind of want to screen that side from any sound intrusion. So having no windows there seems to work best for that to accomplish that goal. And it works well with the floor plan to also not have any of the windows on that side.

Okay. Otherwise, I think it's a beautiful addition. It'll fit with the existing building and all the materials and the sizing, the roof pitch, the windows. Very, very nice. I have no problem with it. Thank you very much. You're welcome.

I agree with all the landscaping comments. I think it looks like a wonderful addition and it's a beautiful site. If you're going to save that tree, you need to put on your drawings tree protection fencing so that the contractors do not park or lay materials on top of the red zone of that tree. Thank you. Not I would absolutely recommend replacing you'll you'll feel it when it's summertime every other season you'll be like regretting removing that tree

thank

you richard

i don't have any comments

bob no comments it seems to complement the house oh thanks ellen

my only concern is the parapet wall that you have It is visible on the front elevation. Is there another solution.

Robert be still on looks like he might have dropped off. The architect. And that's all I guess I don't know the answer. If there's another solution. I think there is not another solution, but...

Okay. I'm just concerned that it's a low wall of stucco and it is straight. I

think it's brick. No. It's not?

No. It's shown as stucco. The section detail shows it is stucco.

I'd have to get back on that, I'm afraid, because I see he's dropped off.

No, aside from trapping snow or anything like that, I think visually it just...

Oh, there's a... the other way

yeah the lower right elevation the you have the gable on the left and then you have just

oh that is stucco

Great wall.

Well, it's stucco too.

And it has the areas, the slots to allow water to run out.

Yes. And I don't think there was another alternative. that I can answer. If

you if you are Robert

is

not to the one above you can see through just yeah there you can see through the roof line to the other side Helen where the windows and chimney are I believe yes those were the elements they were avoiding with a pitched roof.

Okay, no I I'm sure you've considered tilting it a bit so it looks

There were quite a few options, I'm sure. OK.

No, that was my only concern. Other than that, it looks great.

OK.

Amy?

David? Questions or concerns? Any other comments? No. We do have a staff recommendation that the plans be updated to reflect intended landscaping. So please convey that to your architect. Will do. Okay. Do we have a motion? Okay. Okay.

I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. Thank you, Tom. Good luck with it. When will you start it? Not sure. Okay. Well, we'll be walking the neighborhood and we'll take a

look. Okay. Thank you.

Thanks. We have another item and that's the architectural review. And Ryan, are you going to start this?

included with your agenda pack at this time were some drafts of updated arb guidelines right now we're kind of in the process of getting those updated previously they were just kind of um they were a bit of a simpler document just identifying every guidelines we're updating them more to be more comprehensive to we're going to import more information from the building department but we felt this was a good time to get everybody's feedback on how this how these drafts look uh so far The goal with this tonight is just, do you have any strong objections to what you see? If you have more detailed comments that you'd like to provide, my best recommendation is to send those to me in an email. So that way I can, you know, have them later to look at. But if you have any strong projections, anything you see or anything that stands out to you, go ahead and let me know.

I have no strong objection, but I think you're going in the right direction. They look very consistent now. They're easy to read, both the wording with the bullet points and the graphics that you've put in. I feel very comfortable with it. But let's see if everyone else is. Carolyn?

I need time to review it further. But at first glance, it looks pretty good. So I will send you notes on it.

If I have any.

Bridget?

Yeah, I wasn't like in the packet. I wasn't totally sure what I didn't know what we were supposed to be reviewing per se. But now that I see that because this is kind of what's going to be on the website. So it's kind of the idea of like when somebody goes to think, okay, can I build a vinyl fence? I can see the red circle with the X through it that says no. Yeah,

these are basically used majority of the time for the projects that qualify for administrative architecture approval. That's done during the time of the building permit or the AR permit that's referenced. We just wanted to make sure that the way that the material recommendations have been conveyed on these documents represent what you as the ARB would approve in front of this full board since we'll be using these to do that administrative approval. That's the biggest piece that we would need feedback from you on, not necessarily the other elements that Ryan's expanded them to include such as the process for permit reviews and the building division submission requirements that he's working with them on adding to it. So more so if there's anything related to that administrative ARB materials guidelines side of it is what we would want to hear feedback on. Can

I add one comment or question? One, the stone picture shows a fire pit in there. have any kind of regulations on fire pits and how big they can be or proximity to three areas and

right now this these guidelines are we're not proposing any specific changes it's just to demonstrate materials any of the photos that you see if you have

the fire pit out

if

that's going to be confusing I think don't you think

How much do we want to work within Creative Commons licensing guidelines? There are limits.

I mean, we can take a different photo. Is that what you mean?

Yeah, that's all. I'm just worried people are going to be like, well, you put this on the web, so it's approved.

I'll hunt for a different photo for that one.

Just saying. That's what I'd do. Sorry. Go

ahead. I don't think the fire pit worries me. So whatever they wanted

me. I'm just saying.

I get it. I get it. Um, I think it makes it easier to digest. I but I want to go back to something I remember having discussions. Is this part of the process of shifting more of the decision making to administrative decision making? What I'm looking at?

No. So this isn't changing anything that's not already happening. But right now, if you go onto our website and you go to the architectural guidelines section, there's just a lot of texts that list kind of different pieces that over the years, the ARB has established kind of a policy of what they find acceptable and then what we can administratively approve based on that. So we're not changing the process at all right now. What we're doing is Ryan and is really updating the way we present and convey those policies and current procedures to the public to make it easier. I

don't know if your previous existing procedures have pictures, but the pictures speak volumes here. It lets everybody know what we're talking about always. So I thank you for that. I do think you simplify it. And I like the big fonts. Easier to read. No, you guys really are working on it and I commend you for it. Ellen?

Yeah, I think this is great. I wish every municipality were doing something like this. I mean, maybe they are, hopefully they are. Pictures speak volumes, tell a great story. The only things that I noticed were when you have online permitting portal, then one of your bullet points, you say one logged in, click the home tab. I think you meant once logged in. I

see what you're talking about. Yeah.

Yeah. So it happens a couple of times. And then on the decks, porches and patios. under permits and approvals. The third line down patios that are flush with the ground require and administrative architectural review permit and should be an so that's I went over these. I think they're great. Thank you for all of

Amy

David? Looks great. No comments. I had one other comment. When you sent out the electronic packet, the little red do not do, the circle with the slash, don't show up very well on the computer. I was a little surprised to think.

In the photos for materials? Yeah, in the

photos. And I think it's mainly on fencing and screening. I think that was the one that... Oh, and on the residential retaining walls because they're very dark. The pictures are dark.

We can go back and look at a different color or contrast there.

So if we have any further comments, we can send them into this. Sounds good. Any other comments or questions? Gavin Wickenhouser is here tonight. He's from the Mayor's Youth Advisory Commission. If you have any comments, the floor is yours. Okay. Well, we're glad to see you here. How old is he? How old are you?

16. Wow.

You have to say badness. How old are you

17?

Good one. Okay. Well, uh, we'll go around. Kami, any comments?

Nothing further.

Ellen.

Nothing further.

Bob. Nothing further. Bridget.

Nothing

further.

Carolyn?

Nothing further.

David? Nothing tonight. Brian? Nothing further.

Just a reminder that we do have the Ward 2 Conkland meeting on Monday night at the Center of Clayton. The Ward 3 meeting the other week was very well attended, so thank you to all of you that attended that, and hopefully we'll see some more faces as we go into Ward 2 and then Ward 1.

Stephanie?

Nothing this evening.

Okay. Well, we will see you all on the 20th, two weeks from tonight. Thank you very much. We're adjourned. Carolyn, give him a hand.