September 18, 2023 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Plan Commission ARB meeting for September 18th. If you have any phones or other gadgets, please silence them at this time. We'll start with the roll call.

Steve Lichtenfeld. Here. Carolyn Gatiss. Bridget McAndrew.

Here.

Bob Denlow. Here. Helen DiFate.

Bob Denlo. Here. Helen DeFate.

Kami Waldman.

David Gipson. Here.

David Gibson. Here.

Thanks. We have meeting minutes from the previous meeting on September 5th. Are there any changes to it? No. Do we have a motion?

Motion to approve the

minute.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. On the agenda, the first item old business has been pulled for tonight. So we will go directly into the new business, which is 600 West Polo Drive. And we'll start with the staff report. Ryan.

Subject property is located at the east corner of West Polo Drive and Middle Polo Drive. Property is zoned R2 and is developed with a two-story single-family home. The proposal includes the demolition of the existing structure and the construction of a new two-story single family residence. Some board members have questions about the size of the property. Staff did a calculation and found that it came out to close to 18, that includes the basement, the main level, second level garage, all of that space. Whereas in the staff report, it probably said a number around 20. The following is a summary of the site plan review criteria and a full analysis may be found in the staff report. The surrounding area contains single family homes known to R2 and commonly two stories. HVAC units are proposed to be located behind a six foot tall wood fence enclosure on the southwest side of the home adjacent to the primary suite. Trash is proposed to be stored behind a brick wall adjacent to the driveway on the northeast side of the home. On your staff report, it may have included a wood fence. That portion is supposed to be a brick wall. Impervious coverage is proposed to increase to 43.3%. Proposed runoff per MSD 15-year 20-minute calculations would increase by 0.66 cubic feet squared to 2.84%. The existing canopy coverage is 58,366 with 53,657 square feet to be removed. The plan proposes adding 26,000 square feet of canopy coverage, which is 6,145 square feet more than the replacement requirement. The plan also exceeds the native species requirement with 68.7% native proposed. The plan will result in one street tree being removed. As proposed, the plan meets the requirements of the R2 district and staff are coming to approval with the following conditions. One, that the applicant shall coordinate with Public Works regarding the replacement of the street tree it proposed to be removed. Confirmation of a replacement plan shall be provided prior to issuance of a building permit. And two, to ensure future maintenance and protection of the flow wells and stormwater storage beds, the applicant shall record a deed restriction identifying locations and details of the systems with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds and provide proof of recording with the building permit submissions.

Okay, thank you. Who's going to speak first? Come on up. Identify yourself and...

good evening chairman lichtenfeld city manager David Gipson aldermanic representative mccandrew and board members of the architectural

good evening chairman lichtenfeld city manager gibson aldermanic representative mccandrew and board members of the architectural

um is the microphone on is the green light on i'm sorry oh okay

Good evening, Chairman Lichtenfeld, City Manager David Gipson, Aldermanic Representative McAndrew and board members of the Architectural Review Board for the City of Clayton and the City of Claytown representatives. My name is Jimmy Jameson from Jameson Design. My firm is the architectural designer for the case before you located at 600 West Polo Drive within the Country Club Place neighborhood. The lead architectural designer for the project is Storm Clary, who you just saw, and the junior architectural designer is Andrew Hutchins. Andrew's here. Together with the structural engineer of record, Honecke Engineering, the civil engineer of record, GNW Engineering, the landscape architect of record, Aaron Foster, and the certified arborist, Our team represents Rachel and Daniel Schlein and the Gerald L. Kent Irrevocable Trust who own the aforementioned property. 600 West Polo Drive is a 57,063 square foot property with frontages on both West Polo Drive and Middle Polo Drive. The property has a zoning designation of R2 single family dwelling district. Rachel and Daniel Schlein respectfully request the approval to raise the existing home, outbuildings, and swimming pool, all of which are in very poor or dilapidated condition and poses risks to neighborhood children, pets, and small animals. We request approval to build a new two and a half story residence, attached pool cabana, attached four car garage, a swimming pool, and exterior terraces. The proposed project is comprised of a 9,798 square foot residence with an unfinished attic area and unfinished lower level. Adjoining the residence is a cabana comprising 564 square feet. Also attached is a four-car garage with a storage area comprising 1,814 square feet. The project includes a circular exposed aggregate driveway utilizing an existing curb cut on Middle Polo Drive. We request an additional curb cut on West Polo Drive, which acts to complete the circular configuration of the driveway. The side drive, which branches from the circular drive, provides access to the side entryway and the rear parking court and garage. Our total pervious to impervious surface ratio is 43.23%, which is well below the allowable coverage of 55%. We have observed all the building setback and height requirements, including the unique front setback requirement for this high-profile corner lot with fronts on both West Polo Drive and Middle Polo Drive. My firm has worked closely with our civil engineering partner to ensure that stormwater mitigation is properly addressed and poses no threat to the neighboring properties. Our proposed plan calls for two stormwater collection beds, one in the southwest corner of the front yard area and one bed positioned at the southern end of the rear parking court adjacent to the garage. Both stormwater collection beds are below grade and are not visible. All of the residents' gutters and downspouts are routed underground and connect to the stormwater collection beds. To ensure future maintenance and protection of the flow wells and stormwater storage beds, we will record a deed restriction identifying the locations and details of the system with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds and provide proof of recording with the building permit submission. Construction of the residents and the site improvements will pose minimal disturbance to the existing land grades. We have made every attempt to preserve the existing land grades, the proposed grading falls within the grade disturbance limits. We have worked with our landscape architect and arborist to analyze the condition of the existing trees. Unfortunately, the property has been unoccupied for years and the landscape and specifically the trees have not been properly cared for in a very long time. We do not take tree removal lightly. We propose removing the minimal number of trees which are either in a late state of decline or are positioned in harm's way. Many of the trees we propose to remove are dead, have already been partially removed or are in a late state of decline according to our certified arborist. In order to facilitate our request for an additional curb cut, One street tree will need to be removed. We will coordinate with the Public Works Department to facilitate the replacement of the street tree. We propose to preserve 10 significant trees on the property, five of which are a deciduous variety and five of which are evergreen. Their conditions vary from fair to good. None of the existing trees are in excellent condition. The proposed landscape plan includes planting 46 new trees, 28 of which are Missouri native species. This total exceeds the required number of replacement planting. The proposed landscape architecture is modeled after traditional English and French formal gardens with 22 Sun Valley maple trees lining the circular drive. We propose to plant Vardar Valley boxwood bushes en masse to form soft, wide hedges on the street-facing front of the residence. We propose two small groves of hemlock pine trees, which will act to screen the driveway and reduce the visual impact of the paving from the street. Additionally, we propose to plant six black gum trees in the rear yard, which is beyond the rear parking court and not visible from the street. We propose to plant Vardar Valley boxwood bushes in the courtyard and surrounding planters. The boxwood will form soft hedges to frame a pair of Japanese maple trees and four Hollywood juniper trees. The proposed residence is designed in the Neo-Georgian style. It is modeled after a home designed by Stanford White that Rachel and Daniel fell in love with while visiting Daniel's parents at his childhood home in New Jersey. The proposed residence is a classic center hall plan, a plan prevalent in the Country Club Place neighborhood. The facade has bisymmetric window fenestration flanking the center portico with four dormers punctuating the gracefully sloped slate roof. The portico faithfully executes the Palladian Doric order proportions in the columns, pilasters, and entablature. The outside corners of the residence will have brick coining faithful to the Georgian style. The primary materials used in construction are brick and limestone with a slate roof and copper gutters. The brick is textured and is a deep, rich red color with brown and brown-black variation. The same brick is utilized in the neighborhood currently at the garage addition recently completed at 509 West Bolo Drive. The columns, porticos, pediments, entablature, cornice, parapet caps, string courses, and window and door surrounds are crafted from cut Indiana limestone. The sidewalks, steps and terraces are crafted from Turkish pearl cream marble. The full masonry chimney stacks flanking the two-story facade are capped with limestone and fitted with glazed terracotta chimney pots. The residences wood windows are framed by cut white limestone window surrounds and sills which are in the Greek revival style. The central two and a half story section of the facade is the focal point of the residence. The facade is punctuated by elegant full height windows on the first floor, which are framed with full limestone window surrounds. The second floor windows on the facade make use of the same full window surrounds as do the doors at the front and side porticos. The residence's north, south, and rear facades, along with the single-story sections of the residence, make use of companion limestone window lintels and windowsills, also in the Greek Revival style. The windows and doors are constructed in wood and are true divided light with fixed mullions. The windows are operable and are French casement style. Additionally, we make use of circular windows on the north and south sides of the residence as well as within the pool area. The circular windows, also constructed from wood and manufactured by Lowen, are framed with single or double rowlock brick surrounds. The south face of the house includes an areaway for exterior access to the lower level. A wrought iron fence, which is a companion to the wrought iron fence used on the south side of the residence to encapsulate the pool area, is used as a guardrail. The wrought iron fence and gates abut the existing cedar privacy fence on the neighboring property at 610 West Polo Drive. The wrought iron fence is screened from the street view by boxwood hedges planted along the street facing facade of the residence. The side driveway, which connects to the circular drive at the east facade of the residence, connects the side entry and garage, which is located at the rear of the residence. The grassy area between the driveway and the residence will be enclosed by a wrought iron fence and gates to ensure security at the side entry portico and will create an additional fenced play area for children, which is visible from the kitchen and breakfast room windows. The siding and orientation of the side entry, garage access, and the south-facing swimming pool area allow for maximum privacy from the neighboring property at 730 Middle Polo Drive and ensures optimal sunshine within the pool and pool terrace area. The side driveway adjacent to the northeast facade of the residence approaches the property line, as does the driveway of the neighboring property at 730 Middle Polo Drive. The convergence of the two driveways between the two residences is not an uncommon condition in the Country Club-based neighborhood. The following addresses have similar conditions, 504 and 508 East Polo Drive. The driveways are parallel and close to each other. 637 and 639 West Polo Drive, the driveways are parallel with a retaining wall between them. 522 and 520 East Polo Drive, both properties share a driveway. 603, 609, 641, 661, and 665 West Polo Drive. The driveways are along the property lines. And finally, 518 East Polo Drive. The driveway is also along the property line. In an effort to create separation and preserve privacy between the driveways for the Schlein's proposed residents and the neighbor to the east at 730 Middle Polo, we propose a new six-foot cedar privacy fence beginning at the front setback line and ending at the rear of the Schlein property where it meets the former polo field. To maintain continuity, the new cedar fence would match the style and material of the existing privacy fence on the property located to the west at 610 West Polo Drive. Together with the addition of the new privacy fence and the new landscaping, we feel the separation between the neighboring properties will afford the maximum amount of privacy while being aesthetically pleasing. The northeast facade or side entry of the residence steps back to conform with the side setback. It makes use of the same elegant full height windows used on the main facade, along with a pair of circular windows in the cabana. The side entry portico observes the same Doric order as does the main entry and is framed by a pair of limestone columns. Just beyond the circular cabana windows is the brick and limestone cap trash enclosure, which can be accessed by a pair of wrought iron gates. Adjacent to the gates is a door which opens into the garage. The northeast facade of the building and the driveway are illuminated by a series of copper coach lamps, which match the coach lamps used at the main portico entry and at the pool and pool terrace. The coach lamps are manufactured by Bevelo and will be lamped at 75 watts or less. Additionally, the corners of the residence will be softly illuminated from the building's base with architectural landscape lighting. We feel this will create a pleasing glow at the building's corners, illuminating the coining details while simultaneously providing additional security lighting. The four-car garage is accessed at the rear of the property and is not visible from the street. The custom wood and glass garage doors are reminiscent of a 19th century carriage house. The two and a half story section of the residence is flanked by two single-story wings, one containing the master bedroom suite, the other containing the kitchen, cabana, and the garage. The whole forms a U configuration and creates a central walled courtyard from which the main floor rooms and the cabana have access. Central to the courtyard is the swimming pool, which measures 48 by 15 and a half feet. Proposed is a stone terrace that flanks the pool and connects the adjacent pool cabana and the upper dining terrace to the main floor of the residence. There are multiple focal points that have been created within the pool area that are visible from the interior of the residence, the cabana and the rear dining terrace. The garage wall which forms the southern wall of the courtyard features four limestone and brick niches that emulate the residence's window surrounds they flank a recess in the garage wall that creates a terminus for the access created between the entrance hall and loggia and the pool area At the base of the garage wall and separating the wall from the pool terrace is a planter. Low boxwood hedges have been proposed for this area. In addition, Hollywood juniper shrubs have been proposed to be planted between the limestone wall niches. At some future date, a piece of sculpture may be sited in this area, which will act as a terminus for the central access between the residence and the pool area. The cabana is perpendicular to the main axis of the house and bisects the swimming pool, creating a secondary axis. The Schleins may, at some future date, site a piece of sculpture at the far end of the pool opposite the cabana, which will create a secondary focal point. For this reason, no landscaping is proposed for this area and may be added at a future date. The pool cabana makes use of a full height sliding door system that matches the residents window and door profiles. The sliding doors seamlessly integrate into wall pockets, allowing the cabana to become an integral part of the outdoor pool terrace. The cabana door opening is flanked by a pair of limestone columns and circular limestone and brick sculpture niches. The U-shaped configuration created by the adjoining cabana and garage creates an intimate and highly functional dining and pool terrace, allowing for the optimal amount of privacy, sunlight, and safety for this young family. The rear facade makes use of the same bi-symmetric classical order as the main facade. The rear loggia is punctuated by French doors connecting the entry hall and the kitchen master bedroom. Above the loggia is a classically proportioned Palladian window impediment and is flanked by the second floor bedroom windows. Together with our design partners. We have spent a significant amount of time with this lines designing what we believe will be an extraordinary addition to the beautiful and historically significant country club place neighborhood. We have made every effort to work within the regulations and restrictions which we believe protects every resident in this beautiful neighborhood. On behalf of Rachel and Daniel Schlein, we respectfully request that the board considers and approves our proposal. The style, building materials, and landscape will, in our opinion, blend seamlessly into this beautiful and historic neighborhood and replace a long-neglected home and property with a vibrant new home for this young family. Thank you all for your kind consideration. Thank you. So we've brought building materials, an example of the wood window, exterior terrace, sidewalks. We have slate, brick, and all the materials that will be used on the property.

Good evening, Chairman Lichtenfeld, City Manager Gibson, Aldermanic Representative McAndrew and board members of the Architectural Review Board for the City of Clayton and the City of Claytown representatives. My name is Jimmy Jameson from Jameson Design. My firm is the architectural designer for the case before you located at 600 West Polo Drive within the Country Club Place neighborhood. The lead architectural designer for the project is Storm Clary, who you just saw, and the junior architectural designer is Andrew Hutchins. Andrew's here. Together with the structural engineer of record, Honecke Engineering, the civil engineer of record, GNW Engineering, the landscape architect of record, Aaron Foster, and the certified arborist, Our team represents Rachel and Daniel Schlein and the Gerald L. Kent Irrevocable Trust who own the aforementioned property. 600 West Polo Drive is a 57,063 square foot property with frontages on both West Polo Drive and Middle Polo Drive. The property has a zoning designation of R2 single family dwelling district. Rachel and Daniel Schlein respectfully request the approval to raise the existing home, outbuildings, and swimming pool, all of which are in very poor or dilapidated condition and poses risks to neighborhood children, pets, and small animals. We request approval to build a new two and a half story residence, attached pool cabana, attached four car garage, a swimming pool, and exterior terraces. The proposed project is comprised of a 9,798 square foot residence with an unfinished attic area and unfinished lower level. Adjoining the residence is a cabana comprising 564 square feet. Also attached is a four-car garage with a storage area comprising 1,814 square feet. The project includes a circular exposed aggregate driveway utilizing an existing curb cut on Middle Polo Drive. We request an additional curb cut on West Polo Drive, which acts to complete the circular configuration of the driveway. The side drive, which branches from the circular drive, provides access to the side entryway and the rear parking court and garage. Our total pervious to impervious surface ratio is 43.23%, which is well below the allowable coverage of 55%. We have observed all the building setback and height requirements, including the unique front setback requirement for this high-profile corner lot with fronts on both West Polo Drive and Middle Polo Drive. My firm has worked closely with our civil engineering partner to ensure that stormwater mitigation is properly addressed and poses no threat to the neighboring properties. Our proposed plan calls for two stormwater collection beds, one in the southwest corner of the front yard area and one bed positioned at the southern end of the rear parking court adjacent to the garage. Both stormwater collection beds are below grade and are not visible. All of the residents' gutters and downspouts are routed underground and connect to the stormwater collection beds. To ensure future maintenance and protection of the flow wells and stormwater storage beds, we will record a deed restriction identifying the locations and details of the system with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds and provide proof of recording with the building permit submission. Construction of the residents and the site improvements will pose minimal disturbance to the existing land grades. We have made every attempt to preserve the existing land grades, the proposed grading falls within the grade disturbance limits. We have worked with our landscape architect and arborist to analyze the condition of the existing trees. Unfortunately, the property has been unoccupied for years and the landscape and specifically the trees have not been properly cared for in a very long time. We do not take tree removal lightly. We propose removing the minimal number of trees which are either in a late state of decline or are positioned in harm's way. Many of the trees we propose to remove are dead, have already been partially removed or are in a late state of decline according to our certified arborist. In order to facilitate our request for an additional curb cut, One street tree will need to be removed. We will coordinate with the Public Works Department to facilitate the replacement of the street tree. We propose to preserve 10 significant trees on the property, five of which are a deciduous variety and five of which are evergreen. Their conditions vary from fair to good. None of the existing trees are in excellent condition. The proposed landscape plan includes planting 46 new trees, 28 of which are Missouri native species. This total exceeds the required number of replacement planting. The proposed landscape architecture is modeled after traditional English and French formal gardens with 22 Sun Valley maple trees lining the circular drive. We propose to plant Vardar Valley boxwood bushes en masse to form soft, wide hedges on the street-facing front of the residence. We propose two small groves of hemlock pine trees, which will act to screen the driveway and reduce the visual impact of the paving from the street. Additionally, we propose to plant six black gum trees in the rear yard, which is beyond the rear parking court and not visible from the street. We propose to plant Vardar Valley boxwood bushes in the courtyard and surrounding planters. The boxwood will form soft hedges to frame a pair of Japanese maple trees and four Hollywood juniper trees. The proposed residence is designed in the Neo-Georgian style. It is modeled after a home designed by Stanford White that Rachel and Daniel fell in love with while visiting Daniel's parents at his childhood home in New Jersey. The proposed residence is a classic center hall plan, a plan prevalent in the Country Club Place neighborhood. The facade has bisymmetric window fenestration flanking the center portico with four dormers punctuating the gracefully sloped slate roof. The portico faithfully executes the Palladian Doric order proportions in the columns, pilasters, and entablature. The outside corners of the residence will have brick coining faithful to the Georgian style. The primary materials used in construction are brick and limestone with a slate roof and copper gutters. The brick is textured and is a deep, rich red color with brown and brown-black variation. The same brick is utilized in the neighborhood currently at the garage addition recently completed at 509 West Bolo Drive. The columns, porticos, pediments, entablature, cornice, parapet caps, string courses, and window and door surrounds are crafted from cut Indiana limestone. The sidewalks, steps and terraces are crafted from Turkish pearl cream marble. The full masonry chimney stacks flanking the two-story facade are capped with limestone and fitted with glazed terracotta chimney pots. The residences wood windows are framed by cut white limestone window surrounds and sills which are in the Greek revival style. The central two and a half story section of the facade is the focal point of the residence. The facade is punctuated by elegant full height windows on the first floor, which are framed with full limestone window surrounds. The second floor windows on the facade make use of the same full window surrounds as do the doors at the front and side porticos. The residence's north, south, and rear facades, along with the single-story sections of the residence, make use of companion limestone window lintels and windowsills, also in the Greek Revival style. The windows and doors are constructed in wood and are true divided light with fixed mullions. The windows are operable and are French casement style. Additionally, we make use of circular windows on the north and south sides of the residence as well as within the pool area. The circular windows, also constructed from wood and manufactured by Lowen, are framed with single or double rowlock brick surrounds. The south face of the house includes an areaway for exterior access to the lower level. A wrought iron fence, which is a companion to the wrought iron fence used on the south side of the residence to encapsulate the pool area, is used as a guardrail. The wrought iron fence and gates abut the existing cedar privacy fence on the neighboring property at 610 West Polo Drive. The wrought iron fence is screened from the street view by boxwood hedges planted along the street facing facade of the residence. The side driveway, which connects to the circular drive at the east facade of the residence, connects the side entry and garage, which is located at the rear of the residence. The grassy area between the driveway and the residence will be enclosed by a wrought iron fence and gates to ensure security at the side entry portico and will create an additional fenced play area for children, which is visible from the kitchen and breakfast room windows. The siding and orientation of the side entry, garage access, and the south-facing swimming pool area allow for maximum privacy from the neighboring property at 730 Middle Polo Drive and ensures optimal sunshine within the pool and pool terrace area. The side driveway adjacent to the northeast facade of the residence approaches the property line, as does the driveway of the neighboring property at 730 Middle Polo Drive. The convergence of the two driveways between the two residences is not an uncommon condition in the Country Club-based neighborhood. The following addresses have similar conditions, 504 and 508 East Polo Drive. The driveways are parallel and close to each other. 637 and 639 West Polo Drive, the driveways are parallel with a retaining wall between them. 522 and 520 East Polo Drive, both properties share a driveway. 603, 609, 641, 661, and 665 West Polo Drive. The driveways are along the property lines. And finally, 518 East Polo Drive. The driveway is also along the property line. In an effort to create separation and preserve privacy between the driveways for the Schlein's proposed residents and the neighbor to the east at 730 Middle Polo, we propose a new six-foot cedar privacy fence beginning at the front setback line and ending at the rear of the Schlein property where it meets the former polo field. To maintain continuity, the new cedar fence would match the style and material of the existing privacy fence on the property located to the west at 610 West Polo Drive. Together with the addition of the new privacy fence and the new landscaping, we feel the separation between the neighboring properties will afford the maximum amount of privacy while being aesthetically pleasing. The northeast facade or side entry of the residence steps back to conform with the side setback. It makes use of the same elegant full height windows used on the main facade, along with a pair of circular windows in the cabana. The side entry portico observes the same Doric order as does the main entry and is framed by a pair of limestone columns. Just beyond the circular cabana windows is the brick and limestone cap trash enclosure, which can be accessed by a pair of wrought iron gates. Adjacent to the gates is a door which opens into the garage. The northeast facade of the building and the driveway are illuminated by a series of copper coach lamps, which match the coach lamps used at the main portico entry and at the pool and pool terrace. The coach lamps are manufactured by Bevelo and will be lamped at 75 watts or less. Additionally, the corners of the residence will be softly illuminated from the building's base with architectural landscape lighting. We feel this will create a pleasing glow at the building's corners, illuminating the coining details while simultaneously providing additional security lighting. The four-car garage is accessed at the rear of the property and is not visible from the street. The custom wood and glass garage doors are reminiscent of a 19th century carriage house. The two and a half story section of the residence is flanked by two single-story wings, one containing the master bedroom suite, the other containing the kitchen, cabana, and the garage. The whole forms a U configuration and creates a central walled courtyard from which the main floor rooms and the cabana have access. Central to the courtyard is the swimming pool, which measures 48 by 15 and a half feet. Proposed is a stone terrace that flanks the pool and connects the adjacent pool cabana and the upper dining terrace to the main floor of the residence. There are multiple focal points that have been created within the pool area that are visible from the interior of the residence, the cabana and the rear dining terrace. The garage wall which forms the southern wall of the courtyard features four limestone and brick niches that emulate the residence's window surrounds they flank a recess in the garage wall that creates a terminus for the access created between the entrance hall and loggia and the pool area At the base of the garage wall and separating the wall from the pool terrace is a planter. Low boxwood hedges have been proposed for this area. In addition, Hollywood juniper shrubs have been proposed to be planted between the limestone wall niches. At some future date, a piece of sculpture may be sited in this area, which will act as a terminus for the central access between the residence and the pool area. The cabana is perpendicular to the main axis of the house and bisects the swimming pool, creating a secondary axis. The Schleins may, at some future date, site a piece of sculpture at the far end of the pool opposite the cabana, which will create a secondary focal point. For this reason, no landscaping is proposed for this area and may be added at a future date. The pool cabana makes use of a full height sliding door system that matches the residents window and door profiles. The sliding doors seamlessly integrate into wall pockets, allowing the cabana to become an integral part of the outdoor pool terrace. The cabana door opening is flanked by a pair of limestone columns and circular limestone and brick sculpture niches. The U-shaped configuration created by the adjoining cabana and garage creates an intimate and highly functional dining and pool terrace, allowing for the optimal amount of privacy, sunlight, and safety for this young family. The rear facade makes use of the same bi-symmetric classical order as the main facade. The rear loggia is punctuated by French doors connecting the entry hall and the kitchen master bedroom. Above the loggia is a classically proportioned Palladian window impediment and is flanked by the second floor bedroom windows. Together with our design partners. We have spent a significant amount of time with this lines designing what we believe will be an extraordinary addition to the beautiful and historically significant country club place neighborhood. We have made every effort to work within the regulations and restrictions which we believe protects every resident in this beautiful neighborhood. On behalf of Rachel and Daniel Schlein, we respectfully request that the board considers and approves our proposal. The style, building materials, and landscape will, in our opinion, blend seamlessly into this beautiful and historic neighborhood and replace a long-neglected home and property with a vibrant new home for this young family. Thank you all for your kind consideration. Thank you. So we've brought building materials, an example of the wood window, exterior terrace, sidewalks. We have slate, brick, and all the materials that will be used on the property.

Jimmy, we will look at all the materials when we look at the architectural end. We're going to start with site plan first. But I appreciate your complete description. It went over the site plan, the neighborhood, the architectural. So I think everyone here should have a fairly good idea of what's being proposed. We will continue on. Thank you. I'm sure there'll be some questions that we'll have for you. This is a magnificent house, high-quality materials, beautifully designed. It is really without peer in much of our city of Clayton, to be honest. It is sited on the 1.1 acre site, I believe it is. And it is a tough site to work with because it is pie shaped and it has a very odd setback to it along the two streets. But even with that, I have the feeling when we look at it that it is really too big for this site. And it tends to overwhelm other houses around it. It's pushed back on the site, which only means it's closer to the property lines as you go back. And I have that concern that when you look at the context of the neighborhood, it is too large at this point. And I think we can discuss more about that, but I'd like to remain on the site plan at first because we do handle site and architectural separately in an application like this. I think I've alluded to what I saw on the site. It's difficult, and the house is pushed way far to the back compared to some others because of the setbacks in there. And I think it only adds to the dramatic size of the house. And what you can see on the screen is is it really is overshadowing the house to the left of it, which I believe is 730 Polo. And you see a glimpse of the house at 610 West Polo on the right. They're much, much lower. That doesn't mean that they are tiny houses because they're not. Most of the houses are quite good size in Polo except when you go up the hill on East Polo Drive. Some of those are smaller. So when we look at it and you walk around the neighborhood, and of course you have given us many photos of the neighborhood across the street, down Middle Polo, down East Polo, the houses are nowhere near the size of this one. Let me stop there and let's see what the other members have to say. And Bridgette?

Yeah, I mean, I would certainly echo that it is a beautiful home and you did a great job presenting. But I am also concerned, you know, one of the purposes of the site plan review under our code, like our process, is a project's compatibility with its environment and with other land uses and buildings existing in the surrounding area. And it really troubles me that this house could potentially be the largest home in Clayton and It's just not on a lot. I don't think big enough for that. So again, I would echo that I think it's a beautiful home, but just in terms of looking at the plan of the house, I'm just concerned about the neighborhood and really changing the character of the neighborhood when you're walking around. I think it could certainly overwhelm that corner, overwhelm the homes near it. And that's just definitely something that concerns me when i look at just the site plan alone

uh um when i hear you describe the house i think it's magnificent and the only thing that's missing is a golf course it's just terrific it really is it's beautiful and the fact that um what you propose sits within the zoning of the property really impresses me, you know, with the setback lines and everything, because it is such an irregular shape lot that you really kind of pulled a rabbit out of the hat to make it work. And you did it quite well. I think the million dollar question is You know, here this is the private property and the owner proposes to do something that can be done legally. And yet we try to balance that private property right with compatibility to some extent. And I really would like to hear the architect address that issue a little bit, you know, because I think there's a lot of people here that may have some concerns and are the architect address that issue a little bit if that's possible?

We feel that the overall street front on the house is in scale with many of the houses in the existing neighborhood. Obviously, the house has a U-shaped configuration. So the side connection of the house and the position of the garage on the southern portion of the house aren't visible from the street. So we don't feel as though the overall footprint of the house is really visible from the street?

I mean, when... people say this house dwarfs all the houses in the neighborhood to such an extent that it just sticks out too much.

Well, the main floor and the second floor of the house comprise about 9,500 square feet. I... don't know exactly, but there are houses on the front portion of Polo that run parallel to Hanley Road that are of a similar scale. Okay.

I just want to give you an opportunity to comment on that issue.

Thank you, Jimmy. We'll continue. Bob, were you finished? I'm finished.

thank you amy

I echo the issue with the size of this house, and I'm wanting to just question some of the square footage discrepancy because I'm hearing a bunch of things. On your drawings, your first floor, it says it's just under 9,000 square feet. Is that accurate? Okay, so then the second floor, it's saying it's about 3,400 square feet.

Jimmy, come up to the microphone.

The proposed size of the first main floor, the main floor of the house and the second floor, the finished areas of the house are 9,798 square feet.

Combined?

Yes.

So on your drawings, I'm reading that the first floor, there is an additional 564 square feet in

the cabana.

Which does count, right?

Yes. And then an additional 1,814 square feet for the garage.

Okay. So even with the third floor included, so you're roughly at 9,034 and then 2,000, that's almost 14,000 square feet for this house, including the garage, not including the basement. Is that accurate?

That's correct. Okay.

Okay. So that does put this at probably the largest house in Clayton with those square footage numbers, just so that we are aware of that. And I think that's the concern here that you the lot that you're on. Yes, it you guys fit in the parameters. But in the context of this neighborhood, this house just doesn't fit with that scale and that size. Also, when you were listing off all those driveways that you said butted up to one another, were any of those on the inner circle of polo?

I don't believe so.

Right. So I think, you know, Polo is a very unique neighborhood and the fact that the inner circle has, you know, as you're, if you dealt with unique sites, site plans and areas. And so I think forcing with the largest lot in Polo, forcing to have a driveway that butts up to your neighbor, I think it's just not needed. I think you scale down this house, you alleviate that issue because like there's 13 houses on the inner circle and that's never been an issue before. My other concern is with the existing privacy issue, you know, that six foot fence. I mean, there's no, there's no planting along that. It's just strictly just driveway and a privacy fence. You know, you say that you have a lot of privacy with planters and things. I just don't see it at all on the site plan. I know lighting is a concern, but to me the biggest concern with this is the scale of this house and in the context of this neighborhood.

Thank you.

David?

I think as others have said, it's an impressive home and even more impressive that you've been able to site this on the property and meet all the zoning requirements and site plan standards. So yeah, I don't think I have any questions at this point.

Oh, Ryan, Carolyn never signed in. OK. Are there any comments from the audience? OK. Come on up. Identify yourself with your address.

Chairman Lichtenfeld and other members of the board and fellow neighbors, including Rachel. Ryan? I mean, Ed Feutz, F-E-U-T-Z, 730 Middle Polo, the property right adjacent on the east side of the property. So I also had just two or three concerns as far as the scale of the property. I think it also is a very beautiful design of the house. I love it. As far as the scale, I don't have much experience regarding this because this is obviously my first experience in this type of thing. I tend to agree with what's already been said. As far as some of the site... uh and the trees the trees are in horrible shape um i can't even imagine keeping five of those evergreens um i'm worried about the next storm blowing some of them over but if you think they're proper and substantial then so be it uh the two the two large trees at the far end of the property uh right on the polo field line the very end of the property they're in They're in so, so shape that they need a lot of pruning. They look horrible. So if they do keep them, I hope they, of course, will beautify those. I had a concern also about the driveway. I take it the entrance to... enter the driveway off middle polo is that's that's going to use the existing cut out where the limestone is okay that's that's nice to hear um and then the driveway is supposed to swerve over to um to the left and go along adjacent to my property line and driveway which uh i mean right next to it which i know they are allowed to do that um Legally, evidently. But I was hoping something could be done to give a four or five foot setback from their driveway to mine for water drainage or landscaping or something, but whatever the committee decides. And I'm worried about... about the water drainage, the water runoff on the property. I have water problems in the back of my yard too, where it's a low-lying area where I have a French drain. It doesn't quite drain off properly yet, so I have to do something about that. But they have the same problem. Obviously, a big area like mine near the back end, near the polo field where the water collects. So I'm I just want to make sure things are done so the water does not drain off, obviously, onto my property or Noah Lander's property. So that's the main concerns I had, Steve.

Thank you.

My name is Jim Vonderheide, V-O-N-D-E-R-H-E-Y-D-T. And my wife and I, Anne, have lived across the street at 603 West Polo, which immediately faces the front facade of this property. We want to be good neighbors, and we're excited about having a neighbor come that wants to invest in our neighborhood. But after reviewing these images, as well as the site plan, our perspective is that this building is dramatically overscaled for both our neighborhood and the lot. And it needs to be scaled back. May I cite some data? While this is one of the largest pieces of turf in the neighborhood, the building is occupying 45%, if I'm not mistaken, of the developable area. The square footage incorporating with all of the incorporated space approaches 20,000 square feet. The main building itself is more than twice the size of our house across the street. Not to mention the perimeter walls and then the five car garage out back which admittedly are hidden but the development clearly encroaches on the neighbors on both sides and profoundly overwhelms the aesthetic in the neighborhood where we have seen wonderful redevelopment and new properties come in that were new, modern, well-designed, and beautiful buildings that were properly scaled with their adjacent neighbors, maybe a few thousand square feet bigger. but certainly not three to four times the square footage in development. We're concerned also about the drainage in the area. We have consistent and long-term drainage problem that have been a residual effect of development through the years. It's changed the terrain significantly, and all the way through our neighborhood, we now have a drainage problem which the city has been working to mitigate And this redevelopment will only perpetuate the problem of wastewater management and runoff water management. And I can just say that as much as we want a beautiful building across the street, we want to be able to look up our front door and see something that is properly scaled and well-designed in continuity with the historical nature of Polo Drive and the Clayton neighborhoods.

Thank you.

Steve, I'm David Crane. I live at 509 West Polo Drive, just inside the Limestone Gates. I have just two points to add, not as being priority over what's been discussed, addressed with regard to overall size. One point is that the history of Country Club Court goes back 1913, thereabouts. And the original curbing in Polo was limestone. And as this house also, virtually every house in Polo incorporates limestone in its structure, visible from the street front and back. These plans call for granite curbstones that I see on pages 26 and 28, I believe it is. It very likely is an oversight by someone. But I will make a further point that when these curbstones were replaced in, I believe it was in the 90s, I was a trustee, Steve Kissel was too, and Jenna Bussman, the streets were dedicated over to the city. And conjunction with that, we elevated the condition of the street and were granted an allowance for concrete curbs. The trustees put it to a vote of all the residents in Polo, and it was unanimous or virtually unanimous to ante up and supplement the budget for curbing to be limestone. It really came down to limestone granite or concrete And because of the aesthetic of the neighborhood, limestone is everywhere. We have limestone driveways. Most of the houses have it incorporated. These residents not only voted in favor of limestone, but we also reallocated so that we created a fund that supported the construction of limestone on this house because it is a on a peninsular place and everyone paid the mean cost. So I would strongly urge that this house must have limestone curving. It's critical for this aesthetic. The other thing is the stormwater discharge or the stormwater mitigation I've been very interested in hearing the general consensus that this meets the strict setback in water management. I find it really hard to believe that the water discharge problem is going to work. The surface water, you have two collection points in the back of the yard in these easy flow barrels, 50-gallon barrels, I think. where that water is going to be collected, and it's going to be discharged into the surface of the polo field. That's largely clay. The idea that the land would absorb water at the rate it would be pouring into those two collection points very improbable. We have spent quite a bit of money re-landscaping the polo field, clearing it, grading it, and to put two discharge points where water is collected and accelerated and concentrated and it's discharged, I don't think it's acceptable. It's just plain not acceptable to discharge that volume of water into the polo field. Those are my two comments. Thank you. Thank you.

Hi, I'm Nicole Lander.

I'm Evan Waldman. Nicole and I are both trustees of Country Club Place Polo Neighborhood. We coincidentally, the timing is coincidental. We had a neighborhood social last night, which was nice. Nicole and I heard quite a lot about the proposed house. And so we're here to sort of represent the voice of many of our neighbors in addition to those that are here tonight. Jimmy and team have given an impressive 40 pages of rendering. I feel a little bit sheepish pulling out my recycled piece of paper with the tire chart that I'm going to hand out, if you don't mind. The item that we've been asked to address is the overscaling of the house specifically. The sense of the neighbors is that everybody is quite excited to have new construction, a new home built, and especially the old property that is in poor and dilapidated shape removed from the neighborhood. What's well known is that in Clayton, Clayton can be dynamic and both traditional at the same time. There are many neighborhoods in Clayton. We think of Clayton Gardens up north, for example, where teardowns have been a little bit of a trend. And typically speaking, it's almost somewhat of a rule when there's a teardown, it's almost certainly that a larger home is built in its place. We think of that is almost edge to edge, maybe an 1,800 square foot ranch gives way for nearly a 5,000 square foot home. We don't perceive that in the Polo neighborhood that this is a trend per se. We perceive that this might be a one-off as evidenced by over the last decade, there've been a couple of homes that have been torn down and replaced with new larger houses. Those two new larger houses are both 6,000 and 7,000 square feet respectively. The 7,000 square foot house is currently the largest in the neighborhood. What we've handed out is just a little bit of data that simply shows the 13 homes that were referenced earlier on that inner circle of Polo. They're all the pie-shaped lots, kind of unique but also larger lots. The average size of those 13 homes is highlighted on the chart somewhere just north of 4,000 square feet. The proposed size for this new build property will be more than three times the average size, simply dwarfing all the other properties. And so that is, in fact, the overscaling concern that is sort of the voice of the neighbors that we were here to address. Thank you very much. Appreciate your attention.

Thank you. Any other comments?

Oh, yeah. So I have a motto. I'm Steve Kissel 521 West Polo I don't need this microphone. I have been there 37 years and I have a motto, another great day on Polo Drive, and I say it to my wife every day. I said it to one of my neighbors and he said what happened. and nothing has to happen on Polo Drive for it to be another great day on Polo Drive. And look at the house somebody wants to build on Polo Drive, I applaud a Georgian colonial house with a slate roof and red brick, thank God for that. I live in a hundred year old Georgian colonial house, with a slate roof, copper gutters, and red brick. So, I love Polo Drive. I love these people that are here. I want to talk about the site plan a little bit more because there's a bunch of problems with the site plan. And this is the site plan review. And I'll talk about the scale at the end, but I'll try to be brief, which I never am. First of all, on the demo plan, is this site going to have a complete construction fence around it during construction? Because there's not one on the demo plan. And I thought that was a Clayton requirement. So I'd ask the city to address that. But certainly from a safety standpoint, whatever is built here, whatever scale it is, needs a full construction fence and a secure gate. We have had, I had a house built on the north side of me that took three years to build and was a disaster. And they kept coming and going and coming and going, but they did have a construction fence. So that helped mitigate some of the damages. I've lived with a construction project on the north, a giant expansion on the south, and two projects across the street. So this one is a bargain for me. I'm a whole 300 or 400 feet away. The other question is, is there any hazardous material in the old Davis house? Any asbestos? Any kind of abatement plan? It's amazing to me that a set of construction drawings is done and things like that aren't addressed and the city doesn't address it. That I find remarkable. There's two planning reports. Well, it meets this requirement and that requirement. Well, how about... It's called site plan approval and that should be on the site plan. Also, I'm concerned... I know that the granite note is an error, and that somebody thought our limestone curb was granite. They're not going to tear the curb out. But they should protect the stone curb, and when they take out the section for the new drive cut, they should turn those stones over to the city, and the city should come pick them up. We had an incident like that over on East Pole, and I've been working to try to get the city to pick them up. I don't know if they ever did. Those curbs belong to the city, particularly during construction, the city could use those curves. So there's another one kind of on the city more than the drawings. The other thing I look for is traffic control and parking. There is a small parking area. Polo Drive is a one-way street. Everybody understand that? One-way. way street some of my neighbors don't even understand it but i've lived there 37 years i watched andy crouppen drive 40 miles an hour down the wrong way on west polo and fortunately he never killed anybody now he lectures people on how to drive safely but that's just that's just an aside so concrete trucks going the wrong way around the blind corner I'd appreciate the landscape plan if it can stay up there, because I'm going to get to that. Concrete trucks and the whole way you park, and you park on the correct side of Polo, because this is going to be a big project. And something's going to get built there, and I hope it does. I want to see the Davis house torn down. Also, the city's enforcement on mud on the streets and all those kind of things. That's all part of the whole site plan rule. All those notes are wonderful on a drawing. I used to cover drawings with notes. I'm a retired civil engineer. But if you don't enforce it, it doesn't mean anything. Now let's get to drainage. How do you protect Ed Foyt's... What are we doing? Putting the site plan back up? Log

back in.

Oh, we have to log back in. Oh my goodness. I'm a low-tech man in high-tech world, so I can do it. Okay. So on the drainage calcs, and I haven't done drainage calcs since I retired at age 58, which was a long time ago. But I question what is the actual size of this lot? I heard the number 57,000 square feet. It's on the survey, it's 1.1 acres, which is 49,000 square feet. So that makes me question the whole impervious area calculations if you're using a different area. I thought it was 1.1. Your own survey shows 1.1, but if it's 1.3, that does change Ryan's check of the impervious area calculations. And I'd be real interested in, it seems like the square footage of the house and the square footage of a lot seem to float in space, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Regardless of all of that, This project is using the slow well system. And it's been mentioned already, those are 50 gallon containers. They're only eight inches below grade. So what happens in the winter when they freeze up? I mean, the frost line in St. Louis is 30 inches maybe. So is the water down there gonna turn to ice and are those flow wells gonna jam up? I've heard they use them, up in the old town Clayton area because you have big houses on small lots. And maybe they work, maybe they don't. I have no experience with them. I know they have pop-ups on them that are going to discharge all the water out. There's a small swale area at the very back in this tiny backyard, which for the sake of small children, I wish it was larger. But they do have the polo field. But the funniest thing is the MSD approval. And I guess MSD is our approval, which I find remarkable. The pipes are hooked. There is an inlet to a manhole that is a storm manhole that has 12-inch vitrified clay at 1% that runs the length of the field. That pipe is probably 100 years old. Does anybody know if that works? It has no intake into it now. It's a manhole. So that pipe is 100 years of dust. It might be all silted in. It might not work at all. And the whole stormwater plan and the whole MSD approval depends on hooking into that stormlight. So that to me makes no sense. And I would question the city's review on stormwater and MSD's review on storm water. Now to get the landscape, there are four trees shown to be saved in the front yard. And ironically, the landscape architect, if he's such a tree expert, ought to know that he's using the symbol of a pine tree, which is the series of lines for two of the trees. And he's using the simple for a deciduous tree for two of the, and I'm not a landscape architect, for two of the trees, but they're all pine trees. So they all ought to have the same symbol. They are numbered one, two, three and four, and they're all shown to be saved, although that's unclear what kind of a tree savior fences is called for. But the best part of all is if you go to the notes, it shows trees one and two being removed. So if you're not saving those four trees where those counted in the calculations on canopy, And are we really where we think we are on canopy? I like the idea of the new trees if they truly are three inch caliper. I've been burned before in the city with some of the projects around my house where they called for something and then they put in, they called for three inch caliper, they put in one inch caliper and the city did nothing because the developer was long gone. So we shall see on the three inch caliper trees. Now let's get to scale. I think the biggest problem on this lot is it's a corner lot. It's got two 50-foot setbacks. If you guys had gone for a variance at the very beginning and sighted the house toward West Polo, basically made it another house on West Polo instead of trying to push it back into the lot and meet double setbacks, I think you could have... I don't know about quite this size, but you certainly could have put a 10,000 square foot or a 9,000 square foot house nicely on this property and had some setbacks on either side. It's amazing to me that nobody wanted to go for a variance. We grant variances all the time, and it would make sense on this lot. This is certainly a hardship lot, and you could make the case if you pulled that whole project forward and those wings maybe weren't quite as big as they are, why you could scale this thing to where you actually had a backyard. I don't know that the circular drive would be quite as elegant, but I think there's a way to site a large house on this lot, and I hope that it can be done And I really hope that the planning staff here and the architectural review board kind of guide the owner, because I support building this house. I do not want to see the Davis. I don't want to look at the Davis house for another year. God bless her. Gene and Jim Davis were wonderful neighbors, but that place is a wreck and it needs to come down. And I encourage you to grant a demo permit, even if you're still dealing with this house. do a hazmat check and get that house down before something like a fire or something else happens. Because we're sitting there with an empty house on Polo with some boards over a couple of windows. So bottom line, it's another great day on Polo Drive. And if this house gets built as is, I'll find out what it's like to live next to Downton Abbey. Thank you.

You got your exercise. My name

is Tom Rosenfeld. It's 645. What? 645 West Polo Drive. Thank you all for your comments and your thoughts on behalf of the neighbors. I've been at Polo for 22 years, and I think the thing that really makes it so special is what you just saw tonight. We've got a variety of different people. We have a variety of different houses. We have stucco houses and brick houses, and we have stone houses. And there's diversity everywhere. but there's compatibility and, you know, You know, Mr. Vonderheids, the nicest neighbor anybody's ever had. He has a walkway along his driveway where we all access Merrimack School. And our dogs get through to Shaw Park. And, you know, David Crane is worried about our water. The water flow is right. The pool feels always wet. I go back there, you know, probably three times a week behind Ed's house and behind this house. and uh and i live if if polo were a clock i'm six on the clock i'm at the bottom of the neighborhood so when there's a drain problem um i'm the one who has a basement full of water and so i i i'm appreciative my neighbors uh inadvertently looking out for me but the bottom line is this is a gorgeous house jimmy's design and he's a great architect but and it would look gorgeous in you know, Carswold or Forest Ridge or Brentmore are off Orson or Litzinger. And we've had this neighborhood for 100 years with the diversity but sort of also not consistency but compatibility with diversity in the housing. And it's a live and let live group. You know, we don't tell each other how they are to maintain the yard. People just do it and we get together. And this is sort of a departure from that, the size of it, the enormity, the invasiveness of it. And we don't have that in Polo, you know, and it's just a great place. And we welcome, you know, Rachel. And we hope, you know, Rachel moves in with her husband and her new baby due in February in Aquarius. But part of the neighborhood, and this is away from that vastly. And I just appreciate all your work in protecting the neighborhood.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other comments? Come on up.

I'm told I'm the longest resident in Polo in these days. Pierce Powers, William Jr. We're on a third of an acre. And this is just something to think about. When folks have rearranged, they've moved their equipment, air conditioning, pool pumps. And there's a county ordinance on noise. And when you wedge a big house in, if you put the pool pump right next to the foices, you'd be in violation. And it could be noisy. And the same with air conditioners. Heat pumps, no. But I haven't seen where those are going to be located. It could certainly disturb the neighbors on the odd-shaped lot. So that's my comment. We've actually had our kind neighbors move their equipment because it was in violation. Just a thought.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other comments? Are there any hands up? No. Jimmy, do you have any comments you'd like to address? And if not, I have a suggestion.

The existing plan for the mechanical portion of the house is a geothermal system. So that would address some of the sound concerns. And with regard to the overall size of the house, there are multiple two and a half story houses in the neighborhood. And as I referenced, houses that run parallel to Hanley Road. I guess that side of the neighborhood, there are two or three houses that seem significantly larger than many of the other houses in the neighborhood. So again, much of the house is hidden from street view, but nonetheless, the size of the houses and the square footage is as presented. Thank you.

Well, everyone has heard all the comments from both the Land Commission and citizens. No one online has spoken up. I'd like to make a suggestion that we table this tonight and let the applicant go over all the comments that have been made. Hopefully, you heard all of them. There were many repeats. And come back and tell us how you're going to respond to all of them as opposed to attempting to vote on it right now. if you're in agreement with that. Before we go any further, let me check with our counsel. OK. Thank you. If that's the case, on the site plan review, do we have a motion to that effect?

I move to disable the application to a

October 2nd is the next meeting. second

all in favor and then we do have architectural review board which i would think would follow along or do we need to make a motion on that one also

a motion to table a separate motion to table that one and i would suggest that um since the site plan was tabled you would also table that one in case there's any changes or anything that would need to be addressed at architectural review the next time

I also move that we table the architectural review application to October 2nd.

All in favor?

Okay. Thank you very much. We look forward to... hearing responses and discussing it again.

Just to address the comments related. So we will share with public works, the recommendation for them to keep the stones from the new curb cut and also the asbestos and demo plan. All of that is under the demolition permit. So most of the requirements of the demolition permit are not provided at the time of site plan review, but I assure you that our building official will make sure they have all their proper utility shutoff letters, asbestos removal letters, et cetera.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone. We appreciate your participation. And our meeting is not over, so if there's any talk, please take it outside.

Hello. Hi, my name is Kathleen Gund. I live at 329 North Bemiston Avenue.

Kathleen is asked to make a presentation to the board tonight. So if you just shut down this PDF there, your PowerPoint is saved on the desktop.

Just

click the X

in the top right corner. Oh, okay. Okay. The top right corner. Sorry, the big X to the right. Oh, that one? Okay, sorry. That's okay. And then your PowerPoint is here on the right side. Go all the way to the right. There you go. Right there? Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

Right. Keep going right to slideshow. Or you can click on it. Yeah, there you go. Then from beginning. Okay. Perfect.

Thank you. I know that you guys expected a short meeting, so I will go really fast, but this is only about just a couple minutes. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to address you with this concern, which for me is a sustainability concern. And they don't

know anything about what you're presenting to.

Okay. So

who you

are?

I did. My name is Kathleen Gund. I live at 329 North Baymiston Avenue.

You're as a neighbor, not a... You're speaking as a neighbor.

I'm speaking as a resident. And then how do I get it to go to the next? I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Hi, okay. This slide presents some context regarding gas use for illumination. So gas, primarily kerosene, was a marked improvement in illumination historically over candles and oil. However, it was not long before electric lighting became standard. Certain places still use exterior gas lighting primarily to comply with historical standards. So I live in Old Town. We have many new residences there. A lot of them are outfitted with these gas lamps. For the most part, these lamps run 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. It always seemed unnecessarily wasteful to me to have these lamps running continuously. Then I looked into how much energy these lamps actually require. And... If you look at this chart, gas is measured in BTUs where incandescent and LED and fluorescent, that's measured in watts. These gas lamps, the lowest BTU gas lamp I could find online was 800 BTUs. Most of them are over 2,500 BTUs, but in generally most fall within the 1,000 to 10,000 BTU range. Um, so I would also like you to consider that, um, Helen, you brought this up earlier, um, like a 30 watt LED bulb, um, would be equivalent to like 200 to 250 watt, um, incandescent. Um, and then I'd like you to consider this conversion chart of gas lamps in comparison to Watts. And now that incandescents have been, um, you're no longer allowed to purchase them. We're now in the LED range. Let me go on to the fourth slide. And so I would like you to consider one of the stated purposes under our outdoor lighting standards. And purpose two is to promote efficient, operationally cost-effective lighting and to conserve energy. Exterior gas lamps, Do not comply with this purpose, so my request is for this board to consider adding two words gas lamps to section oh prohibitions of section 450 point 360 outdoor lighting standards. I know that this change would not make any meaningful impact on energy use within our community, but it would require developers, builders, architects and owners to make more sustainable lighting choices when they bring their stuff to you. And perhaps that thought process will extend to other areas during the development process. In addition, this change would bring the city's outdoor lighting standards into compliance with purposes outlined in the code. It would be an important signal that the city is serious about sustainability. So thank you for your time. I know this is nothing that is on the agenda to discuss tonight, but I would like you to consider it for a future meeting. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Kathleen. Is the proper procedure to have a discussion about this at a future meeting?

It's really up to you. She wanted to bring this to your attention. So how you want to move forward from now, we can have it as a discussion item if you'd like.

I'd like it to be a discussion item so that maybe there's a little time to let us know Things like if a new house is built where an older house is torn down that has a gas lamp, could a new gas lamp be put up?

Well, the prohibitions section that she's referencing also has a clause about when making people come into compliance with it. So we would have to evaluate this recommendation beyond that. So it's a little bit different from other elements of our code that come under non-conforming sections where they're essentially protected until they would be replaced. This is a little bit different than that. So we would want to evaluate what the impacts to existing properties that have gas lamps would be, and then also the path moving forward. If this is something that you would like us to consider a tax estimate for, then I would recommend any questions like that, if you have some now already, to think of them or... think on it and send those to Ryan and I, and we can kind of do an evaluation of what it would be moving forward with the text amendment to see the best policy.

I have another question. And that is, would this allow the city to force people to remove an existing gas lamp?

So that's where the other section of our lighting code would come into play. So we would have to talk with Stephanie here to make sure that we knew the implications of adding these two words to the code on those homes. Because right now, I don't remember what the year it is, but there is a provision in our outdoor lighting standards for a certain number of years that properties have to come into compliance with those standards.

I don't know if anyone else has a concern right now.

I mean, I think it's a great idea to definitely consider and discuss. We do have a sustainability committee in the city, so I think it would be important to at least bring up at their next meeting just to know that they're, just so they're aware of it. I mean, she has

presented to them already.

Oh, got it. Okay, great. Glad to hear that they know about it. I mean I'm sure they're in support but I would, I mean I think it's a, I'm shocked at how much more energy they require than other sorts of lighting so I'd certainly be in support of, you know, discussing it. So, and seeing what the implications are for the code.

Any other comments, Bob?

I'm very impressed with the homework you did. Very good. I would think it'd probably be grandfathered in, although those that already have gas lamps. But you're saying, Anna, that there's actually a time, a statute of limitations sort of where at some point you've got to come up with present rules. So I'm looking and thinking about those terms. And what would answer the question to me is what's the economic thing? I mean, the numbers seem significant, but I don't know how significant that is really. Is it just, is it truly just a minor thing The numbers really reflect a minor, minor change.

I don't know. We would have to run that because there are other options too, such as updating your architectural guidelines, which are not actually text amendments. To just, you know, prohibit gas lamps and moving forward people would have to ask for a modification from the ARB similar to how they do with other material requirements. I do think that one of the issues we've struggled with a little bit on our residential single family home lighting comes up a lot so you heard the reference to the 75 watts. So it's probably a good time for us to also look into that. We see almost everybody is using some form of an LED now as opposed to a 75-watt typical light bulb for the outdoors. So we can kind of look at both of those pieces together and present some of this information that will help you big picture decide which direction to go. And

the other thing I would always say, What has California done about this? If I Googled and said communities have dealt with gas lighting on the exterior.

So Kathleen and the Sustainability Committee have both looked into it. And from the Sustainability Committee, the intern who was here with us over the summer polled a few different cities that have addressed gas lamps and lighting. It's not as many, given the... energy requirements the watts to be to use it that Kathleen presented it's not as surprisingly not as many communities have prohibited outright gas lamps as you would think just looking at that energy so that's why from our perspective we need a little bit more to understand how that's relating to the the bigger picture we'll look at some of the other communities that the intern grabbed some research on and can present all of that to you

I mean and then do we next start talking about gas fireplaces I don't know you know

I think the, kind of as Kathleen mentioned, just thinking through a lot of the projects that we see in our single-family residential neighborhoods, we do see kind of decorative gas lamps. More than you would think looking when you drive around, they're actually electric that look like, they're made to look like gas lamps. So we don't see a ton of just straight gas lamps or lanterns outside of homes, but we do see a lot of gas fireplaces everywhere. So that would be a very significant change, I think, to our community to go to the gas fireplace compared to the lunch. Definitely.

You can come.

I have to just argue with you. There are tons of them that aren't electric to look like gas.

But recently, we haven't been seeing a lot of them. So the ones that are already established, I wasn't referencing the already established ones. But for example, the townhouses on Gay Avenue, those were originally approved to be gas and they've all been converted to electric. And that's happened on multiple projects that are being constructed now. I'm just

saying they're everywhere now. Right. I was

referencing new construction. I don't think it would be as big of an impact on new construction moving forward.

Okay. I have the same concerns as you have. I think that we should just outlaw any of them going forward. Just if someone comes up and says like, I want gas lamps, just say, well, we don't do that anymore. And you don't have to you know, go into the fireplaces and all that other kind of stuff. But it should allow people to think like, why don't you allow that? Well, you know, they're incredibly wasteful and they use a ton of energy and you're actually helping homeowners going forward. So that's all I have to say. And it sounds like you have a handle on the rest of it. Thank you.

So we'll get some further information and we can discuss it. I think the bottom line is sustainability. And if the gas lamps overlap into something else, we should be consistent in looking for the best sustainability and energy conservation.

I think we'll start with lamps if that's okay. And that also... fits a little bit better with the board's role as it relates to the exterior aesthetics. I think the larger discussion of gas as it relates to other utilities or appliances will let the sustainability committee continue down their road looking into it. But Brian and I will start some research related to these and come back to you. It'll probably be a month or so before we can get to that.

And I do recall there was a time where a lot of ski towns were making people stop using wood fireplaces and installing gas fireplaces.

We don't have that issue.

I mean, there is something with the wood fireplaces that did something to the environment.

Well, we'll leave it with Anna and Ryan, and we'll move forward to information. OK, thank you. Amy, anything further?

Ellen?

Bob? Nothing. Richard? David? No. Ryan? Nope. Anna?

So we have a pop-up event for the Comprehensive Plan on Friday. It'll be over outside of DeMond Park in the Captain area from 3 to 5 p.m. So we're going to try and capture a lot of the families and children around Captain and around the park. So encourage everyone, especially if you have any connections, Bob and Ward 1, let your mates Well, maybe tell your neighbors to attend. So our consultants will be there on Friday. Also, to put on your radar, October is our next targeted Joint Plan Commission Board of Aldermen update from the consultants on the plan commission process. Ryan and I have our check-in meeting with them on Wednesday, so we'll confirm the date. Right now it's probably going to be the second October meeting for the Board of Aldermens. So once I have that, I will email you all.

Can I say one final thing? I know I'm talking too much. At the art fair, I saw a line of food trucks along the courthouse on, is that Merrimack maybe?

Yes. And

it looked wonderful.

Yes, we did get feedback. So recently we had a table at the art fair, a joint table with the livable communities plan as well. And then we also had a table at The Last Parties in the Park of the summer. Both of those referenced the food trucks and other activities we'd They both happen to be events that the city does not plan or control, but we got a lot of feedback about how food trucks help different environments. There weren't any food trucks at the parties in the park event. So people talked about missing them. There were some at art fair and they talked about enjoying them. So I think it will be, you know, we're going to continue to investigate that downtown vibrancy.

Okay. stephanie okay thank you everyone we're adjourned for tonight