September 5, 2023 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Planned Commission ARB for September 5th. If you have any electronic gadgets, please silence them at this time. We'll start with the roll call. Ryan?

Steve Lichtenfeld? Here. Carolyn Gatiss? Bridget McAndrew?

Here.

Bob Denlow? Helen DiFate?

Bob Denlo? Ellen DeFate?

Here.

Kami Waldman?

David Gipson? Here.

David Gibson? Here.

Okay. We have minutes from the previous meeting on August 21st. Are there any changes? No. Seeing none, do we have a motion?

I move to approve the minutes as submitted. Second.

All in favor?

Aye. Okay.

Okay. Before we proceed, we'd like to introduce Gavin Wickenhauser. He is part of the Mayor's Youth Advisory Commission, one of the high school students that lives in our district. So we welcome you. He has a partner and they will be alternating. Is that correct? So welcome. Okay, we'll go on to new business. The item number one is 350 North Brentwood. Ryan, before you start, is the applicant here? Online. Online? Okay. Okay. We can go ahead.

The subject property is located at the northeast corner of the intersection of Brentwood and Clayton Lane Court. The property is developed with a single-family home and is part of the Clayton Lane Court planned unit development. The applicant is seeking approval of the demolition and reconstruction of the front porch. The existing porch is constructed of exposed aggregate with metal railings, is proposed to be removed and replaced with a porch in steps of identical square footage. The new path is proposed to be constructed of limestone tile adjacent to the path are proposed stone retaining walls that will not exceed 36 inches in height. The walls will house planter beds. Retaining walls are common nearby due to North Brentwood's varying slopes. Front entry path materials vary and can comprise materials such as concrete, exposed aggregate, brick, and stone. The proposal complies with the architecture review guidelines and the coverage limitations of the Clayton Lane Court PUD. The proposal includes quality materials come to the surrounding area. Staff are of the opinion that the proposal is complementary to the existing property and surrounding area. Staff recommends approval as submitted.

Okay, thank you. The applicant is online with a hand up.

Yes, I'm here.

Would you give us your name and relation to the project and then add anything you'd like?

My name is Chris Rhodes. I'm with TRC Outdoor. We designed the project and we're the contractor for the project.

Do

you have anything to add to the staff report?

um no i mean we're basically just um reorienting a little bit the sidewalk that's there and uh putting stone over it instead of aggregate concrete um the clients are updating their house and like this look better and we think it fits well with the neighborhood so um there are existing um stone walls off each side of the porch now Those will be removed, replaced at the same locations just with stone to match what we're doing on the rest of the projects. It's all Missouri limestone.

Okay. I thought it looked very good. It changes the whole appearance and the way you get up to the house instead of the existing curving walkway with exposed aggregates. I saw no problem. I think it fits into the neighborhood and the materials look good also. But let's go around the review board. Bridget?

I don't have any comments. I thought it looked nice as well.

Ellen? Yes, I would just like to confirm. It's Missouri limestone for the walls?

Yes, everything is the same limestone.

Okay, sounds good. No further questions.

Amy?

I just had a quick question. I was wondering where you're kind of picking up that Missouri lime. To me, when I kind of walked by it today, I didn't see it relate to anything else in the area. And then I just heard you say that little partial height wall in the corner, because that's brick right now, right?

And that's staying. They just have some very small... little stone walls for they're more like gardening bed walls there that we're going to match with the same stone okay

but but really nowhere else do we see that material anywhere right now

no not on this house originally the originally the homeowner wanted to do this out of concrete uh for a more modern look but we told them and and like ryan had said that that won't you know pass so they're they uh they're you know open to doing this out of stone instead mason masonry stone instead so so

is it like a palette like is it really smooth or is there going to be texture to it

No, so it's equivalent to like a Wisconsin Fond du Lac or an Indiana limestone. It's just a Missouri stone. It's quarried down. It's the same stone that's on the Missouri Capitol building. And so it's very commonly used around the area as a historic stone. Okay. It has a texture to the surface of it for safety, for walking on the stairs and stuff. But it's a blasted finish, so it's a pretty uniform look.

Okay. Yeah, just to me, it looks a little bit modern in the context of that house and the surrounding area. But I think the layout's great. It's a little modern, I think.

Yeah, I think that house in particular... is a little bit more contemporary than some of the other ones, even in that same development already. So they're trying to, I think the goal is for them to keep the look of the house while also adding some more design element to it.

Okay.

Anything else? No. David?

I don't have any questions

today. Any comments from the audience?

Steve, I'm here too.

Okay. Sorry, Carolyn.

Oh, it's okay. A comment on the limestone. We use that all through Forest Park. We've used it historically. It's the Missouri limestone and you can get it at Semco, Earthworks or any one of those. I mean, it's up to them how they want the finish to be, but Usually it has sort of undulating, for lack of a better term, pockmarks. It's really pretty. So, Kami, I think you would actually really appreciate it. But other than that, I had no comments about this project. I thought it looked great.

Okay. Thank you. Any comments from the audience? And no other hands raised. Okay. Well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted? Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. Thank you, Mr. Rhodes. Good luck with it. Okay, items two and three have been pulled. So we'll move on to items four and five. 515 South Central Avenue. And I believe the, yeah, hold on. We have to go through the report.

The subject property is located on the west side of South Central Avenue, roughly mid-block between the street's intersection with Davis Drive and the street's terminus at Merrimack Elementary School. The property is developed with a two-story single-family home and a zoned R2 single-family dwelling district. The applicant is seeking to construct a residential addition and to make improvements to the front and rear yards. A full analysis of site plan review criteria are identified in the staff report, and I'll provide some of the highlights. The project meets the height setback and coverage requirements of the R2 district and is compatible scale with the surrounding area. HVAC units are proposed to be located on and screened on a flat section of the additions roof. The applicant is proposing trash storage within the garage rather than an exterior screened trash enclosure. Staff are of the opinion that the configuration of the property is such that trash will be adequately screened from the street and surrounding properties when it is moved outside for trash collection. Proposed runoff is projected to increase 0.05 cubic feet per second to a total of 0.52. Downspouts will discharge to a dry well with pop-up emitters. Existing canopy coverage is 7,604 square feet with 5,400 to be removed. The plan proposes adding 2,500 square feet of canopy coverage, which is 212 more than required. 100% of the plant species are native. The proposed trees technically exceed the limit for identical genus, but the plan has been deemed acceptable by the contracted landscape reviewers. Staff are of the opinion that the project meets the criteria for site plan approval and recommend approval with the following conditions. The landscape plan depicts the existing dry creek and does not identify a proposed dry well and pop emitter, coordinate the landscape and civil plans to ensure damage is not done to the root system of the existing trees to remain and that the dry well will function with the dry creek. And to ensure the future maintenance and protection of the dry well, the applicant shall record a deed restriction identifying location and details of the system with St Louis county recorder of deeds and provide proof of recording with the building permit submission.

Okay, thank you. um it we're doing the. site plan review at this point so if the applicant would like to come up identify yourself your connection to the building we will do architectural review next so let's just

hello my name is Chris Pike I'm with Thomas Allen group architects I'm representing the Davises today, 515 South Central. It's a two-story brick home that we are putting in addition on the rear and above the garage. We had Wilson Civil Design do our civil drawings for us, and we had Baxter Gardens do the landscape designs for us on this project as well.

Okay. I'm sure we have a few questions. Sure. Let's just look at the site plan, not the building itself. You're proposing two stairways on the south side and I don't really understand how they fit in. There's a public walkway along there also and the five foot wide vacated easement Does that include the public walkway or is that purely on the private property? That's

purely on their property. The public sidewalk is outside of that easement. So that was an easement that was not being used. Yes. Yeah, that'd be

great.

Please give us your name and speak into the microphone.

Hi, Lauren Davis. That was an old easement that was plotted originally as a general usage easement it was not specifically deeded to any one utility. So what we went ahead and did was contact all the utilities to make sure that they did not have a recorded easement specifically in the name of any of those utilities. And we got from them what they called a letter of non-objection, which basically just means that they have no utilities on there. They see no plan to add utilities on there. And because of that, they're fine with vacating their claim to that easement. So that is actually on the north side of what is a retaining wall separating the sidewalk there that cut through from the lot.

So will the concrete block retaining wall remain?

That retaining wall is currently about this height. It will remain there. There will be fencing along there. What you're seeing that's the stairwell down and up will be gated on the front side and will be included in the back fence as well. It's a walkway down to an entrance on the side and then stairs down and then back up into the backyard as well.

Okay, so you can really only access the stairs from the house or the backyard.

You can access it from the front there would be a gate on the fence, but it will be enclosed in that gated area and then from the backyard.

Okay. Can I ask a follow-up question? Sure. So then will the retaining wall then go all, because those stairs are going to go all the way down. So will there be a big retaining wall to hold up? There

are two different retaining walls. There is one which is currently there and has been there for, I grew up in that neighborhood. It's been there my whole life. It's about this tall separating. And then

a fence. And then there'll

be, there's a five foot fence with a scalloped edge on top. And then on the other side of that, I think there's a couple of feet before the actual retaining wall that will actually hold up the land to that walk down into the lower level. Correct. And why

are the stairs on that side? Why did you choose to do that rather than like on the driveway side? So

there is no way to do them on the driveway side. The driveway abuts the property line on the other side. So to do stairs on that side would render our driveway ineffective. And the only way to do that across the back would be to take up With this addition, what little is left of the green space in favor of concrete, which I don't think is anyone's objective. So because of this, we could get access to the lower level if we were entertaining outside and then being able to walk inside or then allow guests to be able to walk from the front without all the way around and then walk into the backyard or into the lower level if they were having a party. Okay.

So, yeah, I guess because I was kind of wondering why we were even undergoing the expensive, I mean, because that's a big, big staircase, big retaining wall where you could just access your basement from your house, I guess.

For us, it was just important to be able to have access to the exterior. We do at some point plan on potentially having relatives come stay with us and if they want to be able to access from the side area. This would just be for a temporary reason as a guest suite, basically. Then they could be able to do so. Or if we were having a party or someday when our kids are teenagers and they want to be able to go in and out, not having to run through the kitchen or disturb anyone in the house. Okay. We just figured while we were going ahead and doing all the excavating for the addition, it was a good time to do that now versus dealing with that problem later.

Yeah, it just didn't look like there was a lot of space between the new addition and the fence. So I was just trying to figure out how you were going to fit all of it.

There is not a lot of space over there, but it will be optimized for what we can fit there and look nice. Okay.

Thanks. Staying on the site plan, the new concrete apron and driveway behind the garage, is that large enough to park another car since you're decreasing the two-car garage to a one-car garage?

It is. Yes, it is decent or big enough to park another care. It'll be a little bit of a maneuver, but it is deep enough to get another car or big enough to get another care.

Okay. And the reason I ask, and Lauren, I think you understand, Central Avenue is a pickup and drop-off for Merrimack School. And the road really isn't wide enough for parked cars, a line of cars, and a third lane for exiting. So...

Yes, as someone who sits in a carpool line frequently and jogs around cars, yes, I understand there would be room with the depth of the yard for two cars to park on the side and an additional one to park in the back as well.

Because I would caution you with Central Avenue being overloaded a couple times a day.

We've had this conversation numerous times.

yeah okay um i i think my third question i see an egress window well and that's in one of the bedrooms i believe is that correct correct you do you not have to have it in both bedrooms so um

get back to this

technically counting one bedroom the other will be used just kind of as an office or

Well, so we have, if you look at page A3, we have a egress window in that stairwell. And that was my, yeah, that was my way around having another window well. I ultimately didn't want any window wells if possible, but we ended up putting one over to the bedroom number two. But bedroom one has an egress window in the stairwell. Oh. You

see what he means?

Yeah. Part of

the reason. It's on the

side. They could get out. Yeah, yeah.

Part of the reason that we did just extend those stairs instead of just going into the backyard out into the front as well was to be able to get three full size windows and a door there so that in that lower level, it didn't feel like a basement. We're coming from our old house where we had light along the whole backside. So for us, the expenses warranted because then it allows us both to have egress from that bedroom and also light in the living room, but also to get a full door and full window in there.

Ultimately, since we're excavating this entire thing as a deep basement, we have the ability to just go ahead and put the steering. So

yes, I noticed that you have three steps down into the new basement.

Yeah.

What headroom will you get?

It'll be, we'll maintain a 6-8. If we need to turn the rim board into a structural member, when I get to my structural engineering section of my project, if I have to have my rim board a structural right there, we'll just go ahead and replace the existing 2x10 with like a parallel, a nine and a quarter parallel or something, if need be. I thought

this was much deeper than that. Why?

It is. So when you walk through here is what he's asking. Yeah. Yeah. You want to get your headroom cleared. So so that's your tight spot, your pinch when you're walking down the staircase. So I need to investigate that with my structural engineer when we get to it. So if I need to go with like I'm sorry, I said nine and a quarter. I meant like a seven and a quarter, five and a quarter by seven and a quarter or something along those lines in order to make it a structural room. Yeah, rim joist, I will. And we may have to do something with the existing floor joist above that to allow that headroom. So it's just something I'm going to approach with the structural engineer at the next phase.

So six, eight would be your absolute minimum. That's the minimum headroom clearance.

Yeah.

And then when you get down into the new basement, what finished ceiling height will you have?

So we have an eight foot pour. And so we'll probably... It would probably maintain an eight foot where we have duct work. We'll keep the duct work to a minimum at the perimeter, do like a tray ceiling if we need to. I like to get creative with that as long as my HVAC guys is working with me. But I like to keep my tray ceilings in my basement so if I have to drop any soffits, I get my duct work in my soffits.

Where are the... the ac units i know right now they're where the stairway is

yeah if you look on the elevation sheets a5 and a actually i would say look at a6 on the roof the flatter roof of that one portion of the of the addition we want to get to two rooftop one or two ac units up there um think we're doing two right yeah two i apologize two uh condensers up there on the roof behind a solid screen to match the chippendale railing style so we'll probably do if you can imagine a railing that's normally open we'll put a piece of like exterior grade uh a sheathing plywood behind it that'll be painted the same or a light lighter color than the railing so it's solid you don't get to see through it but um

There'll

still be a little bit of contrast between the railing and the background piece. And, of course, that fencing will be spaced enough away from the units for maintenance and such. So we're going a little commercial with these AC units up on the roof. But with children, yards at a premium in this neighborhood.

Will you have sufficient air circulation? Around them? yeah and through the

yeah so so yeah with the the gentleman we've talked to and i spoke with i actually talked to uh this guy who's working on another project for me and clayton and he was telling me about 24 inches clearance around any wall or fence for the hvac unit to get proper circulation okay 18 inches on one side 24 on the other two and the other side should be fine

So there are two units up there. They will serve both the existing house and the new addition. Yeah. Okay. And they're relatively small to maintain that 24 inch minimum around it.

well their general yeah denser size i mean they're not

usually

average but

24 to 30 inches

yeah i mean we've got a little bit more space we can utilize up there i mean we we may have to be able to scoot out a little bit towards the rear of the house with a longer section if we need to space them out we have the room to do it and still stay hidden behind this this screen My goal was to keep the screen as close to the peak of the main roof, the existing roof, front to back. So obviously these are orthographic projection drawings, so you see them flat head on. But in perspective, real life, it'll be up there and you won't be able to see it.

However, the neighbors at 509 will see it. And the neighbors on Merrimack. directly to the west we'll see it okay yes they'll

see the one side

right well I would hope um any way you can camouflage it uh I would say you know maybe some sky color might work up there to make it look as uh hidden as possible

yeah i was a little nervous about something like that i was kind of thinking maybe closer to the roof colors which is why we went with the blacks and the dark grays that felt like that might blend with the roof shingles a little bit more i don't know how you guys feel about it but that's what that was my opinion

Yeah, it will face on the front side. It will be behind the peak from the front and it will be below that peak. If I'm looking from the west side, looking east, it will be below the peak here and also on that side. So I think realistically, from where most people would see it, neighbors included, it will blend better with the roof to have it be those darker tones.

I agree with what Chris just said about coordinating. Let's move around. Bridget, site plan.

Yeah, just in terms of site plan so where the drainage is going to be in the rear of right now I think a lot of there's a lot of drainage that comes onto the sidewalk so just kind of understanding that, you know, the pathway, you know, and it gets icy in the winter so is it. I think that was one of the stack recommendations that talk up where the drywall and the pop-up emitters will be. Will that be in the back of your yard?

So we do have a pop-up emitter in the back of the yard. If you look at sheet C2.0, you can see that he's called that out. It's roughly in the middle back of the yard area.

So the actual dry well, yeah. So having grown up in that neighborhood, unfortunately, that pathway has been like that since I was a child. We... currently have a lot of water that sits in that lot from the surrounding lots that are just slightly above and filters down in there, so it's frequently pretty soggy. There is at present a dry creek along the back. The problem is that lowest corner is that corner by the pathway. So to try to figure out how to pull that water away, we put the dry well on the other side to be able to pull the water to the other corner, which is closer to where it's coming from on the west lot and on the north side, hoping to catch that in that dry well before it makes its way across the yard to the current position where it's leaking out into the easement. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I just like the there is some sort of drain that comes from the existing house like right now. And there is literally a drain pipe that goes down into the sidewalk. So I'm just hoping that will go away.

I don't even know what that is from. And there has been no water or anything on in the house for 18 months. There's been not a single sink in that house and there's still water pouring from all different places. we're trying to figure out where some of those end and start. I'm not familiar with exactly what that is, but I would imagine that that will be taken care of by this because the plan is to rework that drainage to catch it. Right. And then the dry creek before it gets down. Right. And

that's what I just want to make sure that we're not having something that still comes off the gutters that goes on to the sidewalk.

We're very actively trying to mitigate that because we want to be able to use as much of that green space as possible. And right now it's been just a swamp. Okay. We're very proactively approaching that.

The water that has come off the property has made at certain times of year, the entire walkway wet and then it freezes and it's difficult for the kids and older people to maneuver.

Yeah. It comes off that one, and then it comes off the Slater's property caddy corner on the other side of that easement there. And they've got a French drain. We will have drainage along that side as well. So I'm hoping that this will solve that problem. I

think everyone in the neighborhood. Yes. Yeah. And

the dry well that you mentioned, just to point it out once again on C2.0, if you look behind the drive, the pad, the parking pad at the rear of the house, you will see the dry well called out. It's got that 11.4 foot dimension to the north of it and the 22.0 foot dimension to the west of it. Okay.

Okay, and we also see on C 2.0 existing fences to remain and I see the the retaining wall to remain.

Correct.

And then I see where the two stairways are. And there's still a little bit of grass or something in between the two defense with the gate at the eastern end of the eastern stair, that fence will come out to the retaining wall, correct?

Correct. It will come out to that retaining wall which flanks that southern border, yeah.

Okay.

I'm not sure what will be in that little 18-inch section between the two retaining walls. I assume likely some type of a gravel or something to absorb some of that water, maybe even another drain there.

Yeah, okay. Sorry, Bridget. I didn't mean to

break in. I think I'm good on site plan.

Okay. Helen?

Yes, I have a question about the setback, the 30-foot setback at the rear.

Okay.

It appears that the one story plus loft part of the addition hangs over that. If you go to the civil seeing 1.0. And you can see where the 30 foot setback line is strong and then it goes right through. Back into the house

so that's that's a cantilevered Bay over the over the setback line not not foundation or what not so.

That's a large bay. What are you going to do underneath it?

This bay right here. As far as what's underneath it, I mean, I don't think we're going to get much to grow underneath it. So it would probably be just a landscape or a gravel bed of some sort.

Okay. What is the distance to the grade?

To grade?

Yes.

Um, so based upon, uh, the civil, we've got, uh, one, two, three. So 18 inches.

Um,

yeah.

Okay. That's

it.

Okay. Amy.

And you clarified the walkway was a big question that I had also on that. Um, and just about the screening for the, um, AC units. I know you're trying to like, you know, camouflage it into, you know, your roof. So my question is why would you use like a decorative element that you are using across the front also?

I understand the question. I feel like as much as we're trying to camouflage it or make it go away color-wise, we're still going to see something up there. I didn't want to do some sort of like... picket fence kind of thing that just looks so hum i wanted to make it look like other things on the house but intentional but match the house we have the chippendale style railing or right whatever you want to call that i keep calling it chippendale i know i

get what you're saying i just feel like you're like celebrating it a little bit and it's kind of like it's it's more i don't know i just think it would you would want it to go away i mean i know it's there like clearly but to like

yeah

I think it's easier to see it boldly in black and white on this drawing. On the front, the contrast will be clear. The house will be off-white. The railing will be black. On the back side with that substrate or whatever we're using behind it, and then the very minimal contrast between the railing, I think it'll just make it look nicer than a box that we're pretending isn't there, but at the same time not call it out too much.

I just might think about that a little bit more. Because you are doing a decorative, you know, you're using that decorative element on the front to decorate your house. And then it's like, I don't know, it seems like a missed opportunity to not do that. I don't know.

Completely open to interpretation on whatever anyone wants. Right. For us, it's more just about how do we make it as little intrusive to everyone else as possible.

It was one of those, well, Dan, if you do, Dan, if I make it too plain, are we going to have a problem with that? Right.

just maybe not match the decorative, I don't know. It just seems odd.

I mean, yeah, I would default. I'm completely open to that. Yeah, I'm open to change, yeah.

Carolyn?

Yeah, the only question I have about the entire project is for obviously the owners. Are you trying to make this into an Airbnb opportunity or what is going on with all the entries and the stairs and the new addition um it

will not be used as an Airbnb it will not have separate utilities and it will not be closed off from the interior space of the house so there would be no way for us to use it as an Airbnb because it will be open to the existing basement and the basement rooms that are already there in the existing structure we have family who lives in our way who would like the opportunity to stay with us every now and then And we also have a mother and son from Ukraine who live with us too. It's okay.

You don't need to keep going. It's fine. I just wasn't sure because it seems excessive for, you know, I mean, for family, it doesn't, nothing is excessive, frankly, to make family comfortable. I do have a comment about the landscape. It seems very sparse. I know it looks like a pretty plan, but the spacing of the species of plants seems very far apart. I would just watch that. I don't know that we can have any control there, but just watch that because you might end up with a bunch of mulch and a bunch of burned out plants.

Carolyn, are you referring to the West property line?

I am referring to the entire project for the landscape, the front, the back, the west.

Are you talking about spacing between the plants? Yes. Okay.

Yes. Yes.

Okay. Okay.

Just be careful about that. I mean, I would not. The best thing I can advise people, the best way, I guess I should say it, to advise people is to make sure that you spend the money up front because then you don't have as much maintenance and watering and everything else. And it's frustrating to me when I see like a plant four feet tall and then four feet again away from you know the next plant it's like they're they will grow in maybe but probably not they probably will burn out and die so i would just spend the money up front frankly it's really not that much landscape is very inexpensive okay Well, I'm only saying that because when you put your house on the market in the future, that's what people see first. They will walk up to your house and go, that's a pretty landscape. Or they'll walk up and go, what? That's a bunch of mulch.

Okay.

That's all.

Okay. Take that in advisement. Yeah, I'll speak with Bill and James at Baxter Gardens about it. Absolutely.

Yeah. All right. My advice. That's all I have other than everybody else's comments.

Thanks, Carolyn. David?

So my concern on the site plan would be the walkway that's right there. And so if you do the easement vacation, I just want Public Works to take a look at it to make sure that the city doesn't need the additional width to maintain that walkway.

That walkway has been the easement that we're talking about that five feet has been within the property line of this retaining wall for my entire life and I'm 41. I don't see any reason why city would need that. And judging from the fact that Laclede, I'm sorry, Spire, Ameren, Missouri American Water and the sewer company have all said that they have no current utilities there and this easement is 100 plus years old. I don't a couple months ago with a whole group and there were no city utilities on that or no city needs to maintain that easement in fact the water that we're talking about the runoff is now falling exclusively on us to mitigate that problem so i don't see any reason why the city

it's not necessarily that it's the fact that the city can access that easement to maintain our asset if we need to improve that walkway for some reason and get us a skid steer a bobcat or access it for any reason you know it's it's nice to have that extra width in order to do that work

that doesn't exist now i don't mean to be rude but

no i understand and there's fences all the way down it and everything else

retaining walls on both sides

there's easements along that as well but we can't even stand on that retaining wall if there's not an easement there or set things on it if we're working on that walkway um it's that type of concern

mean i don't think i just i

just wanted to verify or have our public works department verify that they're okay relinquishing that easement just because the city is responsible for the maintenance of that sidewalk and i just want to make sure this doesn't preclude us from

is that something like a maintenance agreement or it could

be in order with the with you i'm sorry we

only need two feet of that

potentially i just want to makes sure that okay it goes away if there's something we need to supplement that existing easement with in order to maintain that right to access, then perhaps that's something we take a look at.

So

there may be some way to work that out, but I just want to make sure that if we vacate it for some reason, we need to get back there with some sort of equipment or anything else, um, that restriction on access doesn't preclude us from doing the work we need to do. So.

I understand entirely. I

mean, with an easement, while we wouldn't typically do it, you know, we could tear out fences, we could take out retaining walls, whatever it is to maintain the asset that we have the right to access and that easements utilized in some cases for that to happen. Not saying that would happen here, but I just want to make sure before we relinquish that right to access, That's not going to potentially put us in a bad spot.

I'm not even really asking for that. What we need is two feet of that easement in order to be able to fill the foundation for that wall that will then support the landing for our lower level access. There's still three feet there that you could access. We'd be happy to enter into a maintenance agreement to allow you

use

of that.

Yeah, there's got to be a way to work around it. There's a wide footing for that retaining wall because of the nature of the structure that we need to... grab some of that space. So

yeah, the only way for us to be able to get that walkout to the lower level, which is a deal breaker on us being able to operate the space as we'd like was to be able to do that. And I'm, you know, we're willing to work with the city however necessary.

I mean, if we could, can we just put a condition on there that public works review and approve the Yeah, we got it there. Great. Perfect. I think we can work around it. I just

Okay, yeah,

want to make sure we can access the area if we need to.

I want to go back quickly to the air conditioner surround. And I'm looking at A7. And I agree the dark color works well with the roof color. But I also see a lot of horizontal hardy board in there. So I would recommend that maybe you consider something simpler than the what we see, whatever it is, that just may be a simple horizontal cover. I think it might be a little more palatable to the residents living around where they don't have something that draws their eye up to an intricate design, that it's just very simple. Sure. Okay. Any comments from the audience? This is on basic site plan. Come on up. No, we have to have it recorded.

variance? Thank you. The air conditioner, Chris, could there be some acoustic material put in there to help the neighbor

Absolutely. We could, uh, we could, uh, create a screen system that's sort of like a, a insulated soundboard on the, on the unit side. And then like the horizontal panel on the opposite side of the side that they will see. Um, I can't speak to what it specifically will do, but I do know sound travels in waves. And so if there's a screen right in front of it, it's going to block a good portion of that. But some of those sound waves when they get tall, some will go over that structure. I don't know which side you are on. If I'm facing the house, you're on the north side. Okay,

okay, okay.

So that side could be insulated with a thicker panel since it's the closest resident to that item.

I would suggest you might consider doing the north and the west.

Yeah, we could. Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Yes. It might be farther towards polo than your bedroom. If your bedroom is on the ignition in the back, this will be

Please make sure to use the microphone. It's recorded. And then Carolyn, who's online, can only hear.

Sorry about that. So this is the current garage where that garage ends. It will be directly above right there. So if your bedroom is on the addition portion, it will likely be here. This is the third floor. I don't know. I'm not sure where your bedroom is in relation to the house, but your addition goes farther back. On the left side. This is where your house is. This is the north side. This is the house. This is the current existing garage. This is the proposed addition. So this is the air conditioning unit here. OK, like you said, we could do some acoustic panels. It's on the third floor too, so it will be above that. I'm not sure how the sound would travel down from there, but we can do whatever panels are necessary or move it farther towards the back if that's more agreeable. offset from where their bedroom would be.

Yeah, just I mean, it will be important to kind of consider. I mean, of course, a lot of these newer units are much quieter than like old ones. But you know, Because, I mean, you don't want to get to a place where it's really, really loud. Like, St. Louis County will come out and... I mean, you won't have to rip out your HVAC. We have

zero intent of ever causing any harm to anyone. So we would be conscious about that. I just don't want you to get in a

place where you have to move it or something. So, yeah. I mean, making sure that you have an efficient unit and...

So...

They're a lot quieter. The new ones are much quieter than they used to be.

What I would like to do, though, then is to have to speak to the HVAC guy to find out what's the height of this unit and then to see if he knows the sound, like if they have some sort of chart that we can look at to see how tall

that

fence screen needs to be in order to maximize the sound blocking. Right. I'm sorry, I wasn't speaking to the microphone. Did you hear me? Sorry. maximize the height of that as without going too high above that uh that uh

front because then it'd be visible

ridge

well um from the street everything is foreshortened exactly you're not going to see it even if even if i was

a foot above the ridge you might not see it but yeah

So I think we're more concerned with the view from 509 next door. And secondly, from the view from the home, the rear of the homes on Merrimack directly to the west. Right. I don't remember the address number. Any other questions or comments? Mr. Gary Feder?

So I think we're more concerned with the view from 509 next door. And secondly, from the view from the home, the rear of the homes on Merrimack directly to the west. Right. I don't remember the address number. Any other questions or comments? Mr. Fader?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. My name is Gary Feder. I live at 623 South Central down the street from the project. Also one of the ward three aldermen. I don't normally speak at these meetings, although I attend fairly frequently and I usually don't because my zoning matters eventually make it to the board of aldermen. So I've never felt compelled to say anything at these meetings. I have a bit of concern because these particular matters, the site plan and the architectural review will not get to the board of aldermen unless there is some appeal assuming recommendations are made by the plan commission in the rb if there was an appeal it would it would make it to the board but if there's not this is the uh the decision here is kind of the end of the road um and so i do feel compelled to note my concern that the applicants i think have indicated i think there was a reference to They haven't had water in the property for 18 months. And I think that's because they've had control of the property for 18 There's currently posted on the house and has been since early May, a stop work order on any construction of any kind on the house. And the stated reasons from the sign that's on the door is for a failure to obtain required permits from the city, number one, and a failure to appear in municipal court. The fact that that situation exists and has existed, and that we're now talking about the same applicants moving forward, I think is a matter of concern. I don't know entirely what the solution to that is, but I think it is a fair concern. History tends to be a pretty good predictor of the future. And so whatever is approved here, I think we have to deal with this past history at least to the extent of wondering if whatever is appealed will ultimately lead to further stop work orders. failure to get permits, failure to appear in court. Certainly would be my hope that this is behind this and that the project moving forward would not have these kinds of issues. But this is, I think, a unique situation where the applicant has had control of the property and has obviously had a series of difficulties dealing with the city. So to me, the question is, as we move forward, how is this going to be enforced? This is not a typical situation given the past history. I don't know what's within the purview of the plan commission. My comments relate to the architectural review board in the same way to at least guarantee that if this project goes forward, we will not have recurrent problems with the site as we have in the last year and a half. Um, so I think that is something that needs to be dealt with. Uh, if it can be dealt with here at the plan commission ARB, I think that would be helpful. Uh, if not, then if there is an appeal or appeals, then I would hope there would be a way of dealing it with, uh, at the board of Alderman. Uh, but in any event, uh, Living down the street, I'd love to see something positive happen here. It has certainly not been a very attractive site for the last year and a half. So I'm very much supportive of seeing something happen here. I have no objection to these applicants being the ones who proceed with the project. But again, I think the history here suggests that something has to be done to assure compliance as we go forward. Thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. My name is Gary Fader. I live at 623 South Central down the street from the project. Also one of the ward three aldermen. I don't normally speak at these meetings, although I attend fairly frequently and I usually don't because my zoning matters eventually make it to the board of aldermen. So I've never felt compelled to say anything at these meetings. I have a bit of concern because these particular matters, the site plan and the architectural review will not get to the board of aldermen unless there is some appeal assuming recommendations are made by the plan commission in the rb if there was an appeal it would it would make it to the board but if there's not this is the uh the decision here is kind of the end of the road um and so i do feel compelled to note my concern that the applicants i think have indicated i think there was a reference to They haven't had water in the property for 18 months. And I think that's because they've had control of the property for 18 There's currently posted on the house and has been since early May, a stop work order on any construction of any kind on the house. And the stated reasons from the sign that's on the door is for a failure to obtain required permits from the city, number one, and a failure to appear in municipal court. The fact that that situation exists and has existed, and that we're now talking about the same applicants moving forward, I think is a matter of concern. I don't know entirely what the solution to that is, but I think it is a fair concern. History tends to be a pretty good predictor of the future. And so whatever is approved here, I think we have to deal with this past history at least to the extent of wondering if whatever is appealed will ultimately lead to further stop work orders. failure to get permits, failure to appear in court. Certainly would be my hope that this is behind this and that the project moving forward would not have these kinds of issues. But this is, I think, a unique situation where the applicant has had control of the property and has obviously had a series of difficulties dealing with the city. So to me, the question is, as we move forward, how is this going to be enforced? This is not a typical situation given the past history. I don't know what's within the purview of the plan commission. My comments relate to the architectural review board in the same way to at least guarantee that if this project goes forward, we will not have recurrent problems with the site as we have in the last year and a half. Um, so I think that is something that needs to be dealt with. Uh, if it can be dealt with here at the plan commission ARB, I think that would be helpful. Uh, if not, then if there is an appeal or appeals, then I would hope there would be a way of dealing it with, uh, at the board of Alderman. Uh, but in any event, uh, Living down the street, I'd love to see something positive happen here. It has certainly not been a very attractive site for the last year and a half. So I'm very much supportive of seeing something happen here. I have no objection to these applicants being the ones who proceed with the project. But again, I think the history here suggests that something has to be done to assure compliance as we go forward. Thanks.

Thank you. I'd like to offer the applicant, please come back.

It was never our intention to allow this much time to lapse between purchasing the property and beginning the rehab. Unfortunately, I had a health illness last fall which left me hospitalized for several weeks and left me recovering until this day. And that unfortunately left us with some material delays. During that time we also took in a mother and son from Ukraine who we allowed to live in our home and have reworked our entire lives. in order to accommodate. They have become family and they will continue to live with us. During that time, our plans have materially changed from building an addition off the back for our family of two kids and two parents to now this non-traditional sort of multi-family situation, multi-family meaning Angela Nikita, my husband and I living under the same space. No work has been completed on this property since six months after it was purchased. The reason there has been no, there's a stop work order on it because we have neighbors who had called repeatedly anytime anyone was there, even just doing landscaping. police have been called on people mowing the lawn in that yard so we can't even get people to go over there and do lawn work because of the harassment that they've faced from neighbors it's just been a really uncomfortable and unpleasant situation for all of us it's never been my intent to ever have a crossword with a neighbor nor to live next to someone with whom i don't get along or have any animosity this has been our dream for years to build our forever home for our family and that's all we intend to do with this the other setback that we've had is that the backyard is a swamp we've already acknowledged that we didn't have any idea the scope of that when we purchased this property and because of that we've had to do extensive water table testing and excavation to figure out where that water is coming from whether it's a broken um irrigation head on someone else's property that's flowing, whether there's an irrigation line that's not being used under this property that's been broken, whether it's a suspended aquifer that's causing water to bubble up even when there's not rain. So there have been environmental factors beyond the scope of anything we ever imagined that have caused delays on this property. So it isn't for lack of trying and it isn't because we just were trying to be Jerks, for lack of a better way to put it. Unfortunately, that is what's happened, and I believe that in the specific guidelines, a performance bond is even required by the city in order to ensure that that is completed in a timely fashion. And as far as being compliant with all municipal codes, laws, bylaws, ARV, we're standing here right now to make sure that those things happen. are both accounted for currently and that code violations are inspected as construction is beginning, everything will be done with permits according to the letter of the law. So I'm not sure how else there can be an enforcement mechanism beyond being punitive. That would do anything other than exactly what the law is intending to do here.

Okay. Thank you. I do have a question. Earlier, you indicated that you had family an hour or so away that might at times come and stay. Yeah. I assume that's temporary.

That'd be like a night or two when they don't want to drive home.

Right. But now you've just said you've invited a Ukrainian. They've been

living with us since June 1st of 2022. Are they relatives? Yes. By choice, no, yes.

They're not

biological relatives, no. It doesn't violate any city ordinances or any, you can have three unrelated people, their mother and son, my husband and our two children are a family and they can choose to live with us at our discretion. I don't see why that's

I'm just asking for an explanation of those two things, okay? Because

out of the goodness of our heart, we'd like to help two people who are fleeing war. So I guess I don't see why that's of concern.

No, I heard conflicting things. So I wanted to clarify. I would like to hear from staff if possible about the stop work order on failure to apply for permits and appearances in court. Does that have any bearing on this?

Sure. So that is an ongoing case in municipal court. So that handling of that case is out of our hands. Now that it's filed within the court, that's the judge that would need to make a decision on that. It is connected to this in that a big part of the stop work order and the court case is related to them starting to do work without permits. This, what they're here for right now is starting the process of obtaining the correct permits to then go back and do finish the work that they had started previously. So right now the right. So the, the two requests here for safe point review and architecture are required before they can apply for their building permits, the construction permits that are associated with some of the work that was already begun. So that's how they're connected. But this approval tonight or any conditions that you place on it, anything that is not doesn't change whatever the judge might decide to do with the existing court case that you have no purview over action related to that.

But before they could go forward with any permits, they would have to receive approval from the Planning Commission and the ARB.

For the work that they're trying to do right now that you're reviewing tonight, this requires approval of, say, plan and architectural review before a building permit. Now, if they were to remove the whole addition and just wanted to do the work inside of the existing structure, they could obtain a building permit for that without your review. But they would still need a permit to complete all that. Instead, knowing that they want to do the addition, they... assuming the goal is to have this approval and then apply for a building permit that covers all of the scope of work.

The case that's in front of the court now was a misunderstanding. We met with them. There was inadequate ground coverage of green surface, is what they called it. So we sodded the whole front yard. And I thought that that was the adjudication of that case until I received something last week that says now we need to appear on the 14th. because I'm not sure why. I thought the building inspector had signed off on that. We had a meeting with several people from the city discussing exactly what would qualify as such. We didn't want to sod the yard before then ripping up the whole house and tearing some of that out. So we did go ahead and seed and straw the whole front yard, and then that was, I thought, the end of that case that's now going to be heard on the 14th at 9 a.m.

Okay, thank you for the explanation. But going back to what you said, Ana, we have no jurisdiction over the court case or the permits, but before they could get any permit, they must get through the ARB and the Planning Commission. Sort of seems like a circular. It

is a little bit of that. Once a case is filed within municipal court, even if you abate the violation, once it's gotten to the level of municipal court, the inspector doesn't even have the ability to just end the court case. So part of that is that you have to actually appear in court so the judge can make a decision and that's okay. Um, so that's a little bit, that's kind of why it's still hanging out there, even though you seeded and strawed and, and some of the other issues, but in order to obtain a construction permit for an addition, they need this site plan and architecture review approval. In order to abate the other violations for some of the construction activity with inside of the house, they could file for building permits and obtain construction permits related to that work separately of what they're doing right now. But if they want to do the project that you've reviewed that's in front of you tonight, they need a site plan approval and an architecture approval before building permit.

Okay. I need to say something here. I'm uncomfortable with voting on this tonight. I think we need more information. Yeah, I know you're frustrated. But you're not being punished. Okay, I understand. Please

let Carolyn talk.

Hear me out for a second. I just don't understand what's going on. And can we have one week um to review everything again and come back is there like what kind of urgency do we have here

can i speak to the urgency because at this point we're now two and a half months past when we initially intended to file the paperwork because of We're trying to do this in a timely manner and we're being penalized for not doing it in a timely manner. Yet every time we try to do something in a timely manner, we're not met with basic decency even from neighbors to be able to do it. Our impetus to be here was to get neighbors to sign off on being notified that we had intended to build an addition. All of the neighbors knew that. The neighbor who spoke refused to sign off on the notice saying that she'd been notified, even though I left paper copies on her doorstep. I reached out to her personally via cell phone to say, please let me know if you have any questions. I'd like to answer any questions. I want to be able to make this right for you. And I was told that they'd be back in 30 days and then they would still not be signing anything. So at this point, the urgency is that we're up against pouring a foundation before it gets too

cold. so um can i can i can i just can i ask you a question so first so are you you're lauren i'm that's not true i have the receipts and i hate you can just look up here i'm sorry

it's just not it's not worth it so your name is lauren i guess i'm a little confused who are ann and kevin davis they're

my in-laws my husband's parents we purchased the property part of the delay was that we had issues getting a construction loan to fund the property so they purchased it from us and are footing the bill and at the end when we can purchase it back from them as a completed project It will be there. Do you have in that packet a signature stating that we've got the power of attorney to execute all communications and plans on this? I just didn't remember.

I was confused. Yeah, that's what I thought. You said your name was Lauren. And I was like, so my second comment to you is that if I stopped mowing my grass, if I stopped taking care of my home, I too would be cited. and taken to court. But I want to be clear that this has nothing to do with your neighbors. You and your husband were taken to court because in Clayton and in all surrounding neighborhoods, you can't allow your property to fall into total disrepair.

That's not what I'm speaking to. What I'm talking about, we had the police show up at our doorstep because the neighbor on the other side got a construction dumpster. And the neighbor accused us of having the dumpster. It wasn't even our dumpster. There's a certain point where it goes beyond just like, I have no problem maintaining the property to a minimum standard, but there does get to be a point where it ceases to be maintained to a minimum standard. And literally if someone comes out into their front yard and starts yelling at the guy mowing the lawn, that i think breaches okay i'm just i want to be i just want

carolyn

one second i just want to be clear that this should not be right go ahead this this is something that it fell way below the minimum standard and i don't i don't deny that so i i just want to make clear that there should not be any there should not be fault held with your surrounding neighborhoods nor with any of the people walking by your home on a daily basis So, and I think it's wonderful. Well, people walk by your house all the time. There's an elementary school. I'm just saying people in the surrounding area I hope that this project is eventually approved in some fashion because it would be wonderful if it looked like this. But I think you can understand people's concern that nothing will again happen with this property for a year. And that is what we are all concerned.

And that is why we've transferred the ownership in order to make my in-laws or the bank, essentially. That's what's happening. I mean,

I understand that. I mean, i guess my other question and i think it is incredibly admirable that you have taken in uh ukrainian mother and son i mean absolutely incredibly admirable but i am not sure and this might be a question for anna and david like we have so for instance if somebody builds um a lot of times people in clayton will have a garage and they'll build something above their garage and it's technically called a mother-in-law suite people call it different things

conditional use permit we've already gone back and forth with the city upon the applicability can you let me

be finished though in order to build something like that people have to be related like you sign something you so I'm just I'm trying to understand I just want to make sure that before you build this we don't then they can actually live there because I'm not sure that they can so I just want to

confirm that there is nothing keeping anyone of my choosing beyond the three unrelated people in St. Louis County from living in my house provided it is not a nuisance to anyone else

I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page. I

understand that, but respectfully, I will not be told that I cannot elect to have two refugees under my care financially living in my home. That is not acceptable. I will fight that tooth and nail because that is against anything that anyone in a progressive area like Clayton would stand

for. Again, ma'am, I think it's very admirable. I just, again, want to make sure we're all on the same page so that you want to build, like you said, your dream homes. And again, I think it is incredibly wonderful that you've brought these people into your home. But I just want to make sure that you can do it. Would you like me to call my attorney right now? No, I don't. I just want to make it clear to the rest of the room because you've just repeated many times that you're going to have them live with you and I want to make sure that if we go forward and this happens that there's nothing because if somebody wanted to build a mother-in-law suite because we ask them all the time who's going to live there and people will say oh my father is coming to live with us. We ask people that all the time. So I just, again, want to make sure, cause these people are unrelated that it's, you know, okay. Under city code. That's all I'm stating. So yeah.

Carolyn, did you have a comment?

I have about 500, but I'm going to hold off. Let's go to Helen.

PB John Gerstle, Did you have something else no okay we've already gone around the room carolyn I am leaning toward your request that we hold this off, I think the more we get into it, the more questions we are hearing I I know the city wants the public works. PB John Gerstel, To review the easement issue. I would like to see a little more response on what Bridget was asking about this.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'd like to see a little more about that.

I'm sorry, I'm not about what you'd like to see. Well, please, we're speaking.

You'll have your chance. Just please wait.

Just asking what, because I'm trying to make note in my mind of what.

We're getting there. Please calm down. We're getting out of hand here. So I'd like to have a little more information come at our next meeting, giving you time and the city to work with you again, because some of the things that have come up really we were unaware of in our staff report. That doesn't mean it was missing from the report. It just seems like they are additional items. So I feel that we're not, I'm not ready to go forward at this point. And I'd like to know what everyone else feels. Carolyn, I think you already indicated that.

Yes, I believe that there is passion all around on several topics. I feel like The owner is trying to do a good thing, but I need to know exactly for me to vote. I need to know if what the real story is here because i i i don't know i i just don't trust it sorry my spidey sense i just i

just want to make sure that that we're really clear if if if people are uncomfortable voting on this that's that's totally fine

right

But we need to be very clear about what information is needed to apply the zoning code and to apply the architectural design guidelines to this particular set of applications. So I realize that we've talked about the municipal code and an ongoing court case, but when we're applying the zoning code, that doesn't directly correlate the issue of a family and the definition of a family and those types of matters as well. That's something we can certainly take a look at and discuss with the city attorney or with staff. But again, when it comes to the site plan and the design of the building, really quickly, Carolyn, if I could,

just want to make sure that the plan commission and the architectural review board are applying the standards that are in our code of ordinances that relate to zoning and that relate to architectural design to these particular applications. If it's a building code matter, we can take that up through code enforcement and through our building inspectors. If it's a matter of a definition of a family, that's something we can look at as well. But that doesn't necessarily have any impact on site plan characteristics, setback, drainage, those types of items. So I just want to make sure that we're focused on the particular items specifically. that are at hand here and that are within the purview of the plan commission and the architectural review board. So if we need to table this to make a decision later, I think if we want more information related to the easement, if we want more related to the screening of rooftop units, those types of zoning matters, I think that's a legitimate reason to table it. If the concern's just general, I'm not sure what's going on, we need to have a little more specificity as it relates to the zoning code or as it relates to architectural standards so that we can advise them on what to bring back to us because those other matters, while important to the community, obviously, and we've heard from a lot of people tonight, they're somewhat separate from zoning. So I just want to make sure that we're staying on target with our task here.

Thank you, David. Carolyn, did you have a comment?

Yes. I want to say that I believe my initial gut reaction and analysis of the drawings tells me that this property wants to create an environment or Airbnb sort of situation for other people to live there. And that is how I took it. And sorry, but, you know, I can see different staircases and other things and all of that. I just, you know, and their intentions, but the drawings tell me, and if we're going to go with legal drawings here, the drawings tell me that they're setting that property up for other people to come in and live there. That's all I have to say.

So I will just say that the use of the property and that the city does not allow Airbnbs or other temporary uses, and that is regulated outside of site plan review and architectural review. So again, as David said, if there are elements that relate to stormwater runoff, setbacks, material questions, again related back to the criteria for review that's in your staff report that you need additional information on to understand whether or not this property is mitigating those concerns, then we can add that. But if the concern is about potential use or occupancy of this structure once it is completed, That would fall under other sections of our enforcement code. And whether or not this gets a conditional use permit, is it classified as an accessory dwelling unit or not within their basement? The operational characteristics are actually exactly the same. So the idea of renting the structure out applies to this structure, whether it's classified as an accessory they still can't rent it out to other occupants. They still cannot list the house on Airbnb. So again, I think we should focus back on those criteria for review that's listed in the site plan staff report. And if there are items there that you need additional information on, please provide more detail on what your questions are so that as staff, we can make sure to get the necessary and appropriate information from the applicants.

So just to clarify real quick, so we approved the site plan. We're not saying you can rent this. We're just saying like, this is a site plan that we've approved based on all the things. Correct.

By

law, we can't rent it. Right. So I'm just saying if our approval does not say go rent this.

We base our decisions at the plan commission when we're applying zoning to it on the physical characteristics of the structure, not necessarily the use. That's going to be a separate. It doesn't

even close off to the interior of our house. So like. I just

think we're probably trying to figure out if we approve this, we're making sure that we're not saying all the things.

And Lauren, what you just said is how I initially read it as potentially two units. But after going through it and receiving more information from staff, I realized that the lower level is just an integral part of the entire house. It is not a second unit the way the drawings are drawn currently. Correct. So I appreciate the staff's comments, even though I see, I have a lot of questions, but I do think if we stick with the plan commission review, there is the public works review that we've talked about. There's potential easement questions that could be answered. And we also talked about the AC noise attenuation on there. Otherwise, I think the two, conditions in there also would appear to be valid. So I would say if we would add a couple other items to it, I would be ready to go forward with it and leave the other legality issues up for later time.

I would also recommend that while we're all here this evening i know we haven't talked about architectural review yet but if there are outstanding items that that folks might want to see on that then we should probably let them know that too so that when they come back next time we just talked about site plan at this point so right i figured you'll get to the next one but i just want to make sure we we've got a nice list

you think we'll get to the

Well, I mean, if the idea is we're going to table this and give them a list of items, then we can move on to the architectural review. And if there are outstanding items that are needed there as well, then let's go ahead and compile everything and see if we can get through it at the next meeting.

I think that's I mean, I think that's a good idea to go through it.

Yeah. And then make the decision. So in other words, we should really not vote. on the plan commission.

We can do it either way. We can vote to table the site plan application with those particular items outstanding, but then I would suggest that we still talk about the architectural review this evening and then figure out if there's enough information there to make a decision on that particular application or not. And if not, then let's give them those list of items as well so that they can come back prepared for both the architectural review and the site plan review at the next meeting.

I think we should go through architectural and look at everything as a whole tonight. Great. Thank you. Let us avoid voting on the plan review at this point. Go through architectural review and then decide how to go. Okay. You in agreement with that applicant? Continue on. Okay, we will. Ryan, will you start us off?

So the home comprises a brick of varying reds and pinks with white trim accents and an asphalt shingle roof. A concrete drive on the north side of the property leads to a rear access garage. The existing brick is proposed to be painted off-white. New black windows are proposed for all sides of the home. The addition facades are proposed to be James Hardy panel siding, also referred to as stucco sometimes in those plans. The proposed panels would be painted off- white to match the brick paint. Per the architecture review guidelines, the primary building material of each facade should be brick or stone and that second materials may include siding but should not account for more than 25% of each facade. The rear and both side facades fall below the requirement that brick and stone comprise at least 75% of a facade. Homes on this block of South Central Avenue comprise red brick with white trim accents. Stone can be found as an ax material on some nearby properties. Secondary materials exceeding the limit established in the architectural review guidelines are not present on this block of South Central. Staff are of the opinion that the applicant should revise the facade to comply with the architectural review guidelines. A new concrete porch is proposed that would wrap the south side of the home. Stairs are proposed on the east and west sides of the south facade to connect to the basement, the front and rear yards. The rear yard is proposed to contain a new concrete patio and path. The path will connect to a new concrete driveway. New plantings are proposed on the front, rear, and south side yards. Existing fences on adjacent property lines are proposed to remain. Staff are of the opinion that the proposed addition improvements will enhance the property and complement the surrounding neighborhood, that the proposed facade material should be revised to comply with the architectural review guidelines. Staff recommend approval with the following conditions. One that we're in both side facade should be revised to include a brick or brick near comprising at least 70% of the facade and that any front yard paving should match the city standard poor with an 8.5 second mix of Merrimack sand and gravel.

Okay, thank you. The applicant.

So um can I can I come around front and put this up just sure

okay so. It's a it's a two-story dish on the rear of the house full basement and asking very similar to me um Then we're going to be putting these in addition.

Just if you could go and speak.

I know it's awkward, but if you can hold that. Okay. I feel like I'm really important

now. Also, Carolyn, who's online, can't see your boards. Oh, I'm sorry. No. If I rotate it? Because then they wouldn't be able to see it.

Okay. Okay. Sorry, Carolyn.

No,

it's okay. It's okay.

Yeah, so the difference between what's on the screen and what I have here is those pictures are so small. They don't show you the horizontal lines we're trying to achieve with our material. And I'll get into that in a second. But we're doing a two-story addition on the rear of the home. Like I said, that sort of matches the massing of the existing structure. So if you look at this as the addition and this sort of mass like this, matches the mass of the house going this way. And if anybody remembers me from past presentations, I'm big on texture. I don't like all brick. I don't all siding. And I don't like stone. I like a mixture of materials. So when we laid this out, We wanted to go with a cementitious hardy panel with a sort of a stucco finish. And we were trying to achieve this sort of feel to the structure. So sort of this stone banding with the horizontal lines to sort of separate the panels and accentuate the horizontal structure. And so that's kind of what we did here with these. And then the brick and the hardy, cementitious hardy panels will be painted all the same color. Once again, I like texture. I'm not a big fan of one item only on a house. Black railings, black trim, black doors, black windows. We've all seen this color palette a hundred times and it looks good. That's why we keep seeing it. So yeah.

Well, it does look good. I have to admit that. But I have a couple comments on the material. I like Hardy Board, but I think there's too much of it. I support the staff recommendation that it not exceed the 25% on any one facade. I'd be open to varying that 25 a little bit, but when we get up to 80% or over, I think it's just too much for the neighborhood. Secondly, I liked what you showed. It looked like a very bold building, but I don't think that's what we have here. We have much, what we're looking, and I know Carolyn, you can't see it, but The solid to void on these pictures is vastly different from a residential house. The residential house actually is probably closer to a 50-50 solid to void, where this looks like it's 80% to 90% solid.

You're speaking of fenestration versus solid wall, correct?

Correct. So I strongly agree with the staff recommendation. to include brick or brick veneer comprising at least 75% of the facade. Now, if that were 70% in reality, I could deal with that. Also, on the Hardy board, and I see the dimension, and it looks like the dimension is... 18 to 24 inches between panels. I think that's very commercial. I don't feel that that's a residential scale at all. And we do have other hardy board areas in the city, but they are much more like wood siding, which typically is six to eight or nine inches. So that would be my recommendation. But you can respond to that.

It was more of the limestone sizes of, you know, a 24 by 36 or an 18 by 36 proportions of limestone. So I wanted to achieve that horizontal band. I didn't want to go too skinny. I felt like it was going to be candy striped, for instance, right?

We didn't want it to look like siding. We wanted it to give the appearance of stone, like on a lot of the brownstones. You'll see this exact kind of formation around parts of it. This is not because we envisioned the whole building looking like this. This is to show the texture, because a lot of people think of like board and batten, and it's not that Tudor. It's the opposite to where the board is going above the batten. So it gives the appearance of stone with that texture. And then when painted the same, it would look more like a Mediterranean kind of stone as opposed to a siding.

There'll be a recess between the bands. There'll be recess. Instead of a batten sticking out, it will be like a reglet.

So will the upper panel overlap the lower panel?

No, they'll be in plane with each other. There'll be an element, a metal trim piece that makes that grout joint, empty grout

joint. So it's not

that siding like that.

Thank you for describing it. I think it would look really good on a commercial building. I am not comfortable with the scale of it at all or with the massive amount of the hardy boards. And I think hardy board is a great product. But let's face it, even if you paint it, it's going to look like a board. It's really not going to be like a stone. So I'm concerned. It is a

stucco texture, by the way. Not to interrupt you. I just want to make sure. I don't know if I said that. It's not a smooth. It is a sanded finish.

Okay. Before, let's go around and hear everybody if they have any comments. Bridget?

I mean, I would just, I mean, I do love the look of the edition as a whole. I mean, I think the way you were saying like the cream and the brick and I mean, I beautiful. Um, but it's hard, you know, we, people come here all the time, you know, and we, it has to be a certain amount of brick to match kind of like what the original house looked like. So, um, I mean, I really, a lot of, you know, I think people find that I do support new things and, you It's difficult when it becomes this much. Like what Steve said, if it's close, I would absolutely support that. But when you're kind of like almost doubling the size of your home with a material that the original home is not, that's, I think, where it becomes problematic. But I do love the look. I mean, I think it looks very pretty. It will look very nice when it's done. it's just hard for me i guess was to support that large of a difference in the material between the brook and the hardy board i mean i say i understand what you're trying to do and i think things would look nice maybe in certain parts but for so much of it it's just hard yeah

ella

i agree with steve and with bridget in their comments and i would add that the massing is fine i have no problems with that but the material that you're clothing it with is wrong

amy

I agree also. I'm just also curious, are all the windows, are those all going to be new?

Yes. Like

across all facades?

Yes.

Okay. Yes, to their point, I mean, if you look at that front elevation, I think like mixing the materials like you claim you like to do, I think makes sense when it's, you know, you have a dominant one, you know, shown. And then when you get to all the other spaces, it just... Yeah, it just doesn't work. And I think, you know, unfortunately, this house is very obvious. It's not like you're hiding your side elevations. It's through a main walkway. So it's pretty evident, you know, that half the house is not, you know, the brick. So yeah, so I agree with staff recommendations.

May I speak to that real quick? We've got two more people. Oh, Carolyn. I'm sorry.

I forgot. Carolyn, you still there? Well, she dropped off. Okay. David?

Yeah, I don't know. Without seeing a sample, it's really hard for me to visualize. I mean, the drawings help, but I don't know that I've seen that product necessarily. And not being a designer, I guess I'm just not around that stuff enough. Anyhow, so I'm struggling a little bit to figure out what that might look like at At this scale, I don't know if the veneer portion of it got up closer to 75%, if that would lessen that impact of having the taller board, so to speak. I'm not sure. That's the part I'm struggling with a little bit is trying to figure out what that product with the, as you said, the metal in between the two or what that actually looks like.

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of why... I know that this

isn't exact, but it's kind of

the metal Z flashing, the termination strip, the reglet, whatever we're going to call it, between the panels is trying to give you that grout joint to give you that stone feel is really what we're doing. Is there somewhere

this has been done locally? Point two as an example? Is there a sample from a vendor that I could absolutely get a sample. I mean, I don't want to help anybody else, but yes, I, I don't know if anybody would even be willing to consider a board with that height, but personally it's just tough so the

product comes in like four by twelve sheets if you just picture a large piece of cementitious plywood essentially it's a it's a cement impregnated kind of uh material that's very durable this

is just bigger it's got a

stucco standard finish on it yeah i think everybody here is probably probably knows what it is so okay um oh sorry

To respond to you, David, I'm more concerned about the percentage of brick versus the percentage of the hardy board. As far as if we could get that moving, then I would look at the size, the vertical size uh uh distance of the Hardy board and see what really would fit um right now I think it's uh too big a piece even with the reglet that's in there um so uh I I think we need to look at this again

can I respond now I'm sorry okay so um Is there a little bit of flexibility? I know that we have percentages that Clayton sets up for parameters, but what you were saying, if we can come up with something that looks good and maybe doesn't quite make it to... What was the number, Ryan? I

apologize.

75%. If it doesn't quite make to 75%, but we think it looks good, is that like... Are we going to kind of come to an agreement or something like that when we come back for that? Does that make sense,

what I'm

saying?

For me, and I imagine the rest of the board, I would be willing to look at that. What I would caution you is that it should not be 50-50. I think we are looking for substantially more than 50% of traditional masonry, similar to what Bridget was saying, the original material on the house. Even though it's going to be painted, it will still look like brick. And I'm not saying it has to be 75% or even 74%. I think you need to look at it from the design side. That's kind of what I'm getting at.

Yeah. You know,

what looks correct with the relationships of the solid and void, the envelope versus the window. You have to take into account because you have three sides that you'll have to deal with. That's my feeling. I don't know if anyone else wants to jump in on that. Lauren?

Yes. Can I comment? So when we had about designing this to look like stone panels, we didn't want it to look exciting because it's my opinion that I think sighting cheapens the exterior. Even the nicest sighting still looks like sighting. So that's why we went with the larger panels. And when Chris went ahead and laid out the sheets according to the manufacturer's dimensions, We had done it specifically so there weren't vertical lines because it gave it more of this stone look. Because generally when you see it, like on a lot of the brownstones and things in Old Town and the newer construction, there's one on Davis. I think it's in the 7100 block. That's a newer construction as well that has some of that stone cladding on it. You don't see the vertical lines. You only see that horizontal line. So when he did it, he figured the sheets to be laid so that the windows were the seams and the corners were the seams very strategically. So that was all uniform as not to introduce what looks like a Tudor style or Borden baton to that as well. So all you see is the stucco with the vertical lines.

Well, the home you refer to on Davis Drive, most of the stone is vertical on there. So it's not horizontally laid. Then we might not

be talking about the same one.

Okay. Just west of Hanley Road. That's our latest new home. So you avoid the vertical lines. You do have the horizontal lines. But I'm just saying, I think the scale is wrong. And I know what you may like, but you have to deal with us too.

I understand. I'm not disputing

that. Okay. So my feeling is that we need to table this and let you come back where we can see on the architectural and the responses to the two staff recommendations of one was the 75% of the facade. But we will be able to talk. And secondly, the front yard paving, which you probably have no problem with and look at the solid to void design of what we were talking about, the brick to the hardy board siding.

Steve, do you think we could also see a sample of that brought in though? Just so we could see like the reveals and like how big they are and just kind of the thought of how that actually works. And would it really look like stone or is it just look like, you know what I mean? Just so we can really see that. Sure, I understand what you

mean. I guess the issue is I'd have to have a contractor mock it up because the reglet is a separate piece that we would get somewhere else. You know what I'm saying? The hardy is just a panel. It's like a sheet. Yeah.

No, for sure. But like you were talking about, it's going to have a stucco finish and you have like a metal reveal and all that kind of does play into like what.

I could get the, I could probably get samples of the items.

Do you think that would help us kind of better understand? And then also like the scale of it and things like that to your benefit really. Yeah.

Can I ask a question? So the rear of the house has got that large bay that Helen kind of mentioned. So typically, a bay would be a different material than the other part of the house because it is cantilevered. You would never cantilever stone or brick. That would be fake. You would say, oh, that's obviously fake brick or thin sliced brick or whatnot because you don't cantilever materials like that. So... Would the board find that? I mean, I know you can't vote on it because you don't have it in front of you. But I'm just I just want to kind of throw that out there.

We understand what the cantilever requires and what it cannot support. And I think we would have to look at that in the totality of the hardy board being used. And the cantilever portion, to me, when you're looking at the rear elevation, is probably about 50%. of the backside. So what I'm saying is you don't have to get to 75% on each facade, but I think we need to look at each facade and then the whole of it. But I recognize that that cantilevered portion really is not going to be masonry of any type. Other comments? Okay.

Oh,

I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. We're not designing it here tonight. We'll leave that up to you. And my recommendation is to give you points as David and Ana have indicated to come back to us based on the two staff recommendations in both the plan commission review and the ARB review, plus a few additional items from the plan commission review. And correct me anyone if I'm wrong, the public works review of the easement I had in there. I hit that down twice. And we were talking about the sound attenuation in the acoustic, the acoustic around the air conditioning units. And I think that's all I had. Did anyone have anything else from plan commission?

don't maybe bring a sample the

right that's oh go in there okay um we have two staff recommendations in the arb the percentage of the brick veneer and the front yard paving which should be no problem uh and as kami was recommending that we see material uh examples and as you know like you are we're visually and texturally uh responsive So any other comments to that? Do we have a motion to that, to table both to the next meeting? And what date was that?

September 18.

September 18.

I will make a motion to table the site plan review and architectural review on 515 South Central to September Nineteen.

Eighteen.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Okay. We'll look forward to seeing you then. Thank you. Okay. That really brings us to the end of our meeting tonight. Kami, any comments?

Nothing further.

OK, Ellen?

Nothing further.

Bridget?

Nothing further.

David?

Nothing,

thank

you. Ryan? Nothing. And Anna?

Um, no, uh, quick reminder. We do have the art fair this weekend in city. There will be a booth there that the city is running. That's going to cover a variety of topics, including the comrades of plan and the little wool communities plan. Um, this will be the first, uh, activity that the out of town consultants that are running the Louisville community plans that we're going to actually be in town. to be at that booth on Friday night. So, and some of you might not have engaged a lot with them or with that plan yet because they're ramping up now. So I would recommend stopping by. I believe the table is going to be at the intersection of North Merrimack and Forsyth, if I remember correctly. That's where it usually is. So right around that area, look for their table. And then Saturday, Ryan and I will be at that table for the comp plan. So.

Did you say the out-of-town consultants will only be there Friday night?

Correct. Yes, agency will be running the booth Friday night for the local community. Throughout the entire weekend, there will be materials related to both plans, so people will be able to engage with them, but those consultants will be there on Friday night.

Thank you. Okay, anything else? If not, we're adjourned. Thank you, everyone.