May 15, 2023 — Meeting Transcript

Okay. Good evening, everyone. Whether you're online or here in the council chambers, welcome to the plan commission ARB for May 15th. And I see we have one person virtual.

Lichtenfeld. Here. Carolyn Gatiss.

Here.

Bridget McAndrew.

Bob Denlow. Helen DiFate. Here.

Bob Denlo. Helen DeFate. Here.

the minutes from the previous meeting on May 1st. Are there any changes? Hearing none, do we have a motion?

Motion to approve as submitted. Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. We'll move on to new business. I see Chris Tahir. Are you

let's go to item three, which is 6451 clayton road and we'll start with the staff report.

Subject property is located on the northeast corner of the intersection of Clayton Road and Seminary Place. The property is zoned C2 and is developed with a mixed-use building. The property has a signed subdistrict approved in 2008, which identifies one awning sign and two window signs. In June 2022, the tenant applied for window signage that did not receive approval due to nonconformance with the signed subdistrict. In March 2023, the tenant was sent a notice of violation for window signage installed without a permit. The applicant is seeking an amendment to the signed subdivision to add an additional window sign category and bring the current signs into conformance. The proposal would amend the window ID. The staff report.

The staff report may have indicated that there was going to be an additional sign added to the subject, but I just want to clarify it's an amendment to the window ID sign. The proposed signage would be similar to the existing window ID sign in that it will span the window parallel to the ground. The amendment seeks to expand the printed area for the Rwanda Sea, which is limited to 5.7% coverage of the window area. This is more restrictive than the city sign code, which permits up to 10% of the window area to be covered. Signed sub-districts supersede the city requirements regardless of whether the sub-district is more or less restrictive than the code. As proposed, this signed area would result in the 13% of the window area being covered. Staff are of the opinion that the proposed location is appropriate, but that window coverage should be revised to a maximum of 10% coverage. The application area is not expected to restrict visibility of light or activity. Staff are of opinion that the proposed signed location will result in minimal visual impact. Staff recommends approval with the condition that the proposed sign area shall be revised to not exceed 10% of the window area.

Okay, thank you. Mr. DeHair, do you have any comments?

No, sir. Other than I think the 10% would be perfectly acceptable. The 5.7 did seem a little restrictive. The tenant in this space is trying to cover the back of bench seating that runs along the front of the restaurant. And this seemed to be the best option to

clarifies it a little more that there is a purpose for it. So that's good to hear. And you're in agreement with the 10% of the window area as the maximum? Yes.

Yes, sir. I think we can certainly comply with the 10% easily with some minor modifications to the existing. And I think both the building landlord owner and tenant would be happy with that.

Okay. And that would be to not exceed 10%. Correct. Yeah, I understand that. If you're lower, that's okay. Sure. Okay. Let's see, Bridget, any comments?

No comments.

Ellen?

No comment.

Carolyn?

No, I don't have any comments against it. One thing I want to say, my grandfather had a store in the north end of Boston on Hanover Street in those little signs that ran at the bottom about what produce they had or what sales were going on or whatever. It kind of reminds me of that. I know it's not going to be that, but it kind of reminds me and it just made me smile. So 10% is fine. And I just think it's sweet. That's all.

David, no comments. We have the staff recommendation that the applicant has agreed to. Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation. Second.

All in favor? Aye. Okay, thank you.

Thank you all very much. We'll make sure it gets within compliance within a couple of days.

Okay,

luck.

go back to items one and two. And that would be 8113 Maryland Avenue. Okay, welcome. We'll start out with the restaurant conditional use permit. And we'll start with the staff report.

The applicant is seeking a conditional use permit to allow the operation of a restaurant on the subject property, which is located on the north side of Maryland Avenue between North Forsyth Boulevard and North Brentwood Boulevard. The property is zone C1 and is located in the Maryland Gateway Overlay District. The site is developed with a single story commercial structure, previously the location of craft beer cellar. The staff report identifies full CEP criteria. However, I will summarize some of the key points. The proposed hours of operation are 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. Sunday through Thursday and 9 a.m to 10 p.m. on Friday and Saturday. The proposed restaurant measures 2,000 square feet and will include roughly 66 seats. Outdoor dining is proposed in an area of 250 square feet with 20 seats proposed. There are no proposed changes to the footprint or size of the structure. Off street parking is not required for this site, but it is served by street parking and adjacent garages. Delivery will be completed via the alley to the rear of the restaurant. The restaurant will use the existing recycling garbage pickup service at the rear alley. Staff does not anticipate adverse impact regarding noise, light, odor, traffic, or emergency services. Staff recommends that this board recommend approval of the conditional use permit to the Board of Aldermen.

Okay, thank you.

This seems to be really simple. I really, I have no problem with it. It'll be nice to see that occupied in a positive way. Bridget?

Yes, I agree. We're always excited to see new restaurants.

Nothing further to add.

Nothing further.

David no questions or comments.

We do have a staff recommendation to approve the C U P to the Board of Aldermen.

I'll make a motion to approve the C P to the board of all alderman sorry.

All in favor

aye

opposed. Now we'll move on to the alteration and exterior renovation

Ryan. As part of the proposal for the new restaurant, the applicant is seeking to include outdoor dining. The site contains existing brick front patio that is not level. The applicant is proposing the construction of a deck over the patio in order to create a level space. Maryland Avenue slopes down as it moves east to west, creating sloped sidewalks unsuitable for outdoor dining. The surrounding shops are set back from the public sidewalk. They include brick patios. These patios often include stairs to access the sidewalk and a physical barrier comprising of metal fencing or plantings. The exposed deck face is proposed to be Brazilian walnut composite. The trim facade below the deck and the composite differ in color. Staff are of the opinion that any exposed trim be painted, stained to match the composite decking. Planters and one handicap accessible table have also been proposed separating the proposed patio from the sidewalk. The deck would range in height above the existing brick patio with a maximum height of 13 inches. Staff are of the opinion that the use is appropriate and will contribute to street and sidewalk activation. The materials differ from patios nearby, but are in conformance with the city's architectural review guidelines. Staff recommends approval on the condition that any exposed trim shall be painted, stained, or otherwise modified to match the composite decking.

Okay, thank you. Do you have any comments? Oh, come up. We need it to be on the recording.

You could give us your name. My name is Lee. Me and my girlfriend, we are the owner. And on that, we will make sure that we will paint the trim on the patio undertaking to match the color.

Yeah. Thank you.

Oh, no problem. Thank you.

When everyone's in agreement. I think it looks great. You have a lot of seats in there and we hope that it'll be a very good, successful business. Thank you. Have you had another business in the area?

No, we do not. We had one in UCD, like the loop. Yeah. Well, welcome to Clayton. Thank you.

Richard?

I agree. It looks really nice. Welcome.

I do have a concern about the handicapped seating that if I come in a wheelchair, I have only one place that I can sit and I can only have one other person with me.

Oh, yes. But we do have like, like indoors, we have like multiple a lot like 66 more seats in.

Okay, so the handicapped seating is really limited. And if it's only two of us, the people right next to us are a foot higher.

Outdoor dining area.

Yeah. I, that concerns me that it's, if I were going there, I would feel it was an afterthought and that I wasn't really welcome. I was second class citizen and you know, that really, it really bothers me obviously. Um, And my sitting area would be sloped.

Well, you've accommodated everybody else with the patio. But if I'm handicapped, I'm sitting there in a sloped situation.

So yeah, so first of all, I'd like to say thank you for your comment. And I think that's a very good point, very good perspective that we would really like to consider. And I think right now the condition is on the end of the patio that we want to put in this handicapped seat, the slope is not as severe as the rest of the area, which was one of the you know, consideration we've already taken. You know, with our architect, like we actually taken a look at how the floor looks like over there and that end seems to be the best, the most flat area that we can better host those handicapped individuals. you know a guess but I in terms of how many seats are there I think that's a valid point and I think you know do you have a proposal and you know any of you I mean I we wouldn't mind go back to our architect and maybe adding more you know into our plan I think that's definitely you know something changeable for us

yeah I think it should be I didn't check to see any requirements that if you're seating so many, then you must have so many handicapped as we do with parking spaces. I didn't check that for restaurants. But I think if I were in a wheelchair going there, I might go once. I might not even stay because...

Yeah,

it's like seating me next to the bathroom door. It's not a pleasant space. So, and if you know, and I would literally be on a sloped situation, I would look at expanding it. My first preference would be leveling the working with the slope, leveling it where you can, but making the access to it handicapped accessible.

You know, that I can get there.

Maybe like a ramp?

Yeah,

I was

thinking about that.

A

ramp to go up one foot and the maximum your slope is one foot. To go up a foot, you need 12 feet, which the ramp begins to take over.

There's also the other restaurants on Maryland, they can put seating near the tree wells. So Five Star Burger, their accessible outdoor seating is actually within the sidewalk area. So through your outdoor dining permit, you can address additional seating options that are not located on private property as well.

Oh, OK. That's another option that I mean, right now we're really restricting everything, trying to put it on our, you know, not our personal property, but, you know, the property within the line. But I think, yeah, definitely like we if we if we can spend that a little bit out there, that could be a solution to include more handicapped seats in there. And i'm just like to i'm so sorry no you go yeah just would like to point it out that our indoor dining area do have more tables that's definitely handicapped. sample for you know, for the purpose so but yeah we would definitely consider that and I think the ramp I don't know if that's a good idea, but I will definitely would definitely get back with our architect and see. if we want to like include more on the street area so that we can have more, or like you said, like if there is any way for us to kind of black out that area to basically make one whole handicap dining.

No, some of the other restaurants, if you walk as I have done a number of times, it's a challenge to Even me negotiating between chairs because people don't sit close to the table, they push back. I understand.

Yeah.

And there was an instance where someone in a wheelchair was coming towards me and It was earlier in the evening, so people weren't filling up the seats. And I literally had to stand, push aside a couple of chairs to stand so that the wheelchair could pass, which is not an ideal situation. If there had been people at the tables, I guess people would have had to get up, move their chairs and

So essentially, I think we're also looking for, again, thank you for that perspective. I personally would never thought of those details, but I think one solution of it very obvious is that we can last table on the dining area, the outside dining area allowed it maybe broader alleyway for people to pass, especially people who sing well. definitely will keep that in mind. So again, like in my mind right now, we have multiple options. We just have to talk to our architect in terms of, because I gotta be honest with all of you that, you know, the Maryland, that little streets, it has a lot of great food. I personally am a fan of the Pashnash, the half and half, but it's a little bit challenging in terms of the handicap situation. So yeah, definitely I will, yeah, we will definitely go back and see what we can do and i will i guess maybe next step is presented back to you guys and

we can do that administratively so you'll get an outdoor dining permit um and that's where we'll detail out of the layout options and then that the access route requirements so

yeah it's not only wheelchairs it's parents with kids in carriages, strollers. Right. Yeah. All the

day. Individually. I never recruit them. But yeah, thank you. Thank you. That's very good suggestion.

Okay, that's it.

Carolyn?

um other than what helen has mentioned i i'm so excited for this restaurant um right up my wheelhouse of yummy food so excited for it that's all i had

um well you've already agreed to the staff recommendation And as Anna Krane had said, the changes that you're proposing will come back during the outdoor dining permit. So we will take a vote. Do we have a motion?

um well you've already agreed to the staff recommendation And as Anna Crane had said, the changes that you're proposing will come back during the outdoor dining permit. So we will take a vote. Do we have a motion?

Sure. Should we add anything from what Helen said, though, or?

Well, I think we can generalize that any changes based on the comments will be reviewed by staff. Oh, okay. Administratively during the outdoor dining permit.

Okay. Should I add that as a number two then or no? Sure. Okay. make a motion to uh approve with staff recommendation number one and also add number two that any changes um to any kind of handicap accessibility will be reviewed by staff

second

all in favor aye opposed

and welcome

sorry Good. Well, we wish you the best. What is your opening date?

Well, so yeah, we have to build the restaurant because the space right now doesn't have any restaurant foundation. So we have to build that and we hire the interior designer from China, hope to bring some exotic experience to here. So we kind of purchase a lot of materials from China for the interior design. So that power has to be shipped over. So we're looking at definitely, you know, hopefully two to three months, if not later. Fingers crossed. Good luck. Good

luck with it. Many of us are eager to see it open.

Thank

you.

Appreciate it.

Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you.

You know, I'm sorry. Can I just say something to this couple? What would be really interesting is if you got WashU students involved in some of the design, because how cool would that be to be part of the community and bring them into Clayton a little bit more? you know obviously and the ideas would be pretty much almost free it could be a studio and you could talk to people there and I don't know I'm just throwing that out there because I used to teach there I don't teach now but how cool would that be saying WashU students helped with this all right I'll let it go though but I'm just saying actually

Yeah, I actually graduated from WashU. Oh, well, then we do have one. They're definitely one of our target customers. So we yeah, we definitely want to include them. And I think that's a very like awesome idea. Excuse me. Awesome idea because we have in that space, we have kind of this wall right now. We kind of divide it by kind of wood beams, but it will be perfect for like a tiny gallery kind of you know chandler a

rents chandler a rinse

no not really

okay oh all right

i mean i mean i'm majoring in business so it might be different oh okay different college but um yeah again like i yeah definitely i think that's an awesome idea like if i can include some which

is kind of cool

yeah like they

really need to tie the communities together and

say,

hey, we're listening to you and please come here. Yeah,

do a little like mini gallery, like show whatever, like in our space and people will come and visit. It's going to be, yeah. Thank you. Okay,

that's all.

Good luck. Thanks. Thank you so much for your time.

Okay, we'll move on to item number four, the retaining wall review. And Thank you, Ryan. Okay.

So each of you should have received a copy, either physical copy or digital copy of the updated retaining wall guidelines. You're going to notice we have, if you guys are familiar with the existing ones that are out there, it's currently one page and it's a little bit more limited in what it's going to show you. So we've switched it up just a little bit. It's now two pages. On your first page is going to be the permitting process, what that's going to look like. We're going to tell you the permits that you're going to need for everything. We're going When we jump over to the back, we're directing people to our portal since we're taking most everything now through the online portal. There's still a lot of folks out there that are not as familiar with that process. So that's just another space to kind of put that in front of people. And we're also identifying the materials on the second page. that's kind of changed before from the materials is that now we're basically just saying here's permitted and not permitted materials with the one exception being if you have the, if you're using modular block in a front yard it still has to abide by the standards that were set before. One other additional change is we got a lot of questions about concrete retaining walls You still can't just do like a plain concrete retaining wall, but it is now clarified that if you are stamping your concrete wall, if you're doing something with that to where it doesn't look like concrete, then that has been clarified. But with that, if you guys have any comments, having seen this, do you guys feel like this is straightforward? Do you feel like this is something that is easy for you to understand or are there modifications that you might make to it for clarification?

I thought it was very clear and to the point, but my concern is, will this be seen by any applicant as being more or less cumbersome?

If you're an applicant that is wanting to, I think the biggest area you're gonna see this is with the materials. If you're an applicants that is willing to use a modular block, you will find the process less cumbersome because right now if you want to use any kind of modular block in a rear yard, it still has to abide by the standards of the three various sizes, colors, textures. And especially for a lot of low walls and rear yards, there's a lot of applicants that would rather not do that. They want to use different materials. They can often become very frustrated with the process. Another example might be those concrete retaining wall options where they want to use something stamped. They're usually, once again, very small rear yard options, but those are the two biggest questions that I get regarding those items. I tend to forward them this. They also don't always often understand what permits they're going to need, whether or not they're going to administrative and so that's why we tried to include this chart that's in there to try to explain where you're going to need what type of permit

okay with it mainly because it really spells it out I think much better than we've ever had it before and hopefully it'll reduce the questions that come to you, reduce the applicants having to come here and maybe move it along a little quicker.

Yeah, the other one that

we also get a lot of questions for are the smaller retaining walls in a front yard. So the ones that don't trigger a building permit, we have a lot of those throughout the city, small holding up landscaping area or holding grade away from a driveway. And they're really short right now. All of those are coming to ARB still, even if they meet these material guidelines. So that's another type that we have pulled out and directed straight to the administrative process.

Ana just answered my question, so. I don't have any other comments.

No, I think it's great. If I'm looking for information on a project, something like this is clear. It tells me exactly what I need to know to go back to the owner and say, yes, you do need a permit. You do need this. The one thing I would add is that Elaborate on that 48 inches. You say from the bottom of the foundation or footing to the top of the wall. But most people, if they've got like an 18 inch retaining wall, 18 inches exposed, they have no clue that it may be 30 inches below grade. And it will vary depending on what they're doing, the finished materials they're using. If there were just a diagram, the kind of, a simple explanation of okay, bottom of footing, foundation footing grade with 30 inches and then 18 inches, that's 48 inches Because people are going to think, oh, well, I'm just putting up this little wall. You know, it's what is it? 24 inches? You know, they have no clue and they'll assume that maybe the foundation of the footing is the thickness of a concrete slab. And landscape Contractors, not all of them are knowledgeable about fences either that they need a permit. I think just that illustration will help and save a lot of aggravation.

Definitely. We can put a chart in there. That'd be

Yep. Yep. I would say Ryan's doing a good job of making some of our materials look a lot nicer. So he's, once he's finished as this one, then he's on to the next material. So we're going to start, we're going to have some really coordinated documents and Ryan's done. Wow. You guys

are really on

it.

It's very cool. It should have looked good. So what do you have 20 or 30 in the queue? Oh gosh.

What else was on there? The

next ones, we've got fences. We're going to do something similar for fences, rear yard, all that sort of stuff. Just in general, Ryan and Hobie are starting to research just materials, composite, vinyl, see where we are in terms of sustainability and where we were and that sort of stuff, so we're going to also create some guidelines like that, and then just in general, the architectural guidelines, if you go to our webpage, we have a page on architectural guidelines. references we have the driveway material one that's another one he's going to redo and everything on there instead of having just a lot of text that we have on a web page right now he's going to translate all of that into these much more digestible documents for the public

We get a lot of questions regarding our architectural guidelines and we can direct them to the page that's currently out there, but that's often, there's a lot of texts there and people just get kind of scared and overwhelmed when they have to do a lot of reading. So hopefully by having more of these materials out there, we can send project specific information. It'll maybe help people ease into the process a little bit easier.

I think most people respond well to a photograph and to a graphic description.

Nothing

Brian? Nothing else. No hints about the next meeting?

It looks short right now, but there's still another week. We've got a few things floating out there, so it's hit or miss at this point.

Well, I will be absent at the next meeting, and I'll see you two meetings from now. So