February 21, 2023 — Meeting Transcript

Meeting tonight, we're gonna do roll call. Bob Denlow? Here. Carolyn Gatiss? Ellen DeFade? Here. Kami Waldman? Here. Bridget McAndrew? Here. Okay. Jim David Gipson?

Meeting tonight, we're gonna do roll call. Bob Denlo? Here. Carolyn Gatiss? Ellen DeFade? Here. Amy Waldman? Here. Bridget McAndrew? Here. Okay. Jim Gibson?

Here. All right, we have enough for a quorum. Let's proceed. First order of business is the minutes. Have you all looked at the minutes? Which is somewhere here. Does anybody have any additions or changes to recommend? And we get a motion to approve the minutes for last. I

move to approve the minutes as submitted. Second.

Okay. A vote? Ayes? Aye. So approved.

Next, we have the, we have to have a public hearing regarding Chapter 410, the Article 14 of Maryland Gateway Overlay

District. Did you want to potentially move Davis Platt up?

I'm sorry.

Would you like to move the Davis plat up before the applicant is in the audience? If we want to move that one up from the agenda so that he does not have to wait.

Oh, okay. Let's do that one.

Is let's see, what is his name?

The applicant for 27 Davis. Yeah. Come forward. Can you just turn the mic for the green light?

Okay. Oh, I'm sorry.

Sorry.

We'll do the matter of 7827 Davis Drive, which is where we're here to see about voting on combining two existing lots. And you are whom?

The owner of 7827 Davis, Tom

Keon. Tom Keon, okay. And what I understand is, you want to give a summary? Yeah,

I'll introduce the item. So this is a subdivision plot for lot consolidation of 7827 Davis Drive. The subject property is located on the northeast side of the corner of the intersection of Davis Drive and South Central Avenue. The property is zoned R2 single family dwelling district. Recently, the city vacated rights to an area of unimproved right-of-way. This area is currently improved with the subject property's driveway. After vacation of the rights, the current property owner of 7827 Davis Drive has secured the rights to the vacated area and now requests a plat to consolidate this with his existing house. The lot consolidation would result in a new side yard setback, which would create a nonconforming condition for the existing lot or in the existing house, excuse me. The Board of Adjustment approved a variance for this setback that would allow for the consolidation of the lots without creating a nonconforming scenario. In conclusion, staffs have the opinion that the lot is consistent with other lots in the muted area and recommends approval to the Board of Aldermen with the following condition. One, the applicant shall file a plat with the St. Louis County Recorder's of Deeds Office and submit proof of reporting within 30 days of Board of Alderman approval.

So Tom, what I understand, there's almost 3,500 square feet that includes part of your driveway that is not legally yours. Is that right or not? You need to be consolidated. Consolidated.

The word legally got me there. It's currently not mine, except it's being vacated.

Okay. We're just here to do a boundary adjustment to combine the two lots into one. Is there anything you want to say about that?

It's taken me three years to get here, but I would like to have that done. Yes.

Okay. All right. And we do a public hearing first or we This is

not a public hearing, but you can entertain public comment.

I don't have any problems with it, Tom. It's a it's what they call it legally is a no brainer to me. So

legally, I don't Yeah, it's Yes, sir.

Right? Is there any comments from anyone? No. No, no.

I move to approve as submitted with the stipulation added by the staff. And that is that the applicant files apply for the St. Louis County recorder of deeds office and submit proof of filing to the city within 30 days of Board of Alderman approval. Second.

Okay. Aye. Aye. So approved. Next on

our list of things to do is the tax text amendment to Article 14, Maryland Gateway overlay district We have talked about that in past meetings. This is the low-rise buildings along Maryland, those nice shops. And we have tax amendments that basically remove the issue of HUDs to be used there and also reduces the height from three stories to two stories. Is this public hearing? Okay. Is there anyone in the audience who wishes to? So you're

opening the public hearing.

We're opening this up for a public hearing. Is there anyone here who would like to make any comments or say anything?

I'll just provide the summary that we typically do for the staff report. So this item was discussed previously as a discussion item here with the board. The Board of Aldermen has been discussing historic preservation regulations and options, and out of that came a desire to protect the scale and development characteristics of this block of Maryland Avenue, which is located on the north side of Maryland Avenue between North Forsyth Boulevard and North Brentwood Boulevard. This area is currently located within the Maryland Gateway Overlay District. The proposed text amendment would add provisions to the existing overlay district that would restrict this block in particular from being rezoned under a planned unit development for redevelopment in the future and would also lower the height, maximum height from three stories to two stories. In addition, it establishes a front yard setback for this block that's consistent with the existing front yard setback. And it also adds a provision to the architecture review board standards that requires brick as a primary building material on the facade. Staff's recommendation is to hold the public hearing and then recommend approval of the text amendment to the Board of Aldermen.

Okay. Is there anyone who wishes to speak at the public hearing on this matter? I see no hands up, no one wanting to say anything. Any comments from commissioners here? Is no, no. I'll

just say that the owners, I think we're property owners have been here in the past And while I respect their concerns about taking this out of the PUD process and reducing the height, I think that is outweighed by the desire, I think, of the community to preserve this area. So I think Ana and David have done a great job of kind of coming up with a solution to, again, ensuring that we keep those shops, at least keep that area the way it looks right now.

Okay. I think it's one of the few remaining areas we can preserve the nice look of Clayton with some retail and taking away the pugs and the height restriction, reduce it a little bit, I think preserves it for the future even more so. So with that, do we have a motion to so approve the changes? We close

the public hearing.

And we close the public hearing?

I move to approve. the text amendment to the Article 14 of the Maryland Gateway Overlay District as submitted.

Second?

Second.

Ayes?

Aye.

Nays? So approved.

Next on our agenda, It's technically in three sections, but I think we'll probably hear a lot of it at one because it's a big overlap. We have a review.

This is regarding... You want to explain what we have here?

Sure. So this is 48 South Beamston Avenue, 7745 and 7751 Carondelet Avenue. This includes a request for rezoning, a planned unit development, architectural review, site plan review, and a major subdivision plat. We recommend that we hear those together, allow the applicant to present on one and then any motions that would be made would need to be separated back out with all those items. There are multiple that require opening of a public hearing.

So I see one being a review of rezoning application to a planned unit development to allow construction of a new mixed use development. review of design and materials associated with the construction of a new mixed-use development, and a review of a subdivision plot to combine three parcels into one lot for a total square footage of 38,505 square feet in widening of an existing alley.

Would you like to open the public hearing for items number two and three under the public hearing item of the agenda?

Yes. Two and three is dealing with the review of the rezoning application to a PUD, and three deals with review of the design and materials associated with the construction of a new mixed use development.

It's the actual planning and development new

mix use is there anyone here wishes to say anything. Please state your name,

my name is Jerry cry Lynn i'm vice president senior Vice President of green street development okay that 4540. The creed, what is your first name

again

Jerry cry Lynn. I represent the development company's partnership with Sterling Bank under the name of 48 or 50 Bemiston, Green Street Bemiston Ventures. It's our proposal to develop this property. And thank you for taking the time this evening. Sorry to

interrupt, Chairman. Would you like us to do our normal staff report introduction first before they get in? You're

going to go into in detail. Let's have a staff report. Okay, great.

So this is a request for a public hearing to solicit input regarding the rezoning planned unit development and site plan for our proposed mixed use development. The rezoning PUD and site plan are being considered together in the staff report. as the proposed development overlaps for these areas. The proposed development will also require architecture review board approval, as well as subdivision plat approval by the Board of Aldermen. The purpose of a PUD process is to foster appropriate use of existing buildings and enable compatible redevelopment, which provides public benefits as identified within the code. This achieves objectives also outlined in the code. The PUD must provide public benefits to the surrounding neighborhood and to the city above and beyond what can be reasonably achieved by application of the zoning provisions of the original zoning district. The subject site is located at the northeast corner of the intersection of South Beamston Avenue and Carondelet Avenue. The properties have a zoning designation of HDC, high-density commercial. The site's currently improved with office buildings ranging in height from two stories to eight stories. Adjacent land uses include retail, office, hotel, and parking. The proposed project consists of the demolition of the existing buildings, widening of the existing east-west alley, and construction of this 24-story mixed-use building with office, retail, apartment, and parking uses. The proposed development includes construction of 254 apartments, approximately 13,000 square feet of office, and just over 11,000 square feet retail, which includes a portion of the bank. and 342 parking spaces. Off street parking is provided for the use in the attached garage. The building will total approximately 460,000 square feet and total height as measured from existing grade to the top of the flat roof is 280 feet. Access to the parking garage is proposed off of Crandallette Avenue at the southeastern corner of the site. Pedestrian access to the retail spaces and residential entrance is located along South Bemiston Avenue. The main entrance to the bank service will be provided at the southwestern corner directly adjacent to the intersection. City standard streetscape is proposed along the project limits. A pocket park is proposed along the east side of the building. The loading dock and service areas are located on the north side of the building with access from the alley. The subject properties and proposed development meet the minimum requirements for mixed use PUD in terms of the uses component and the size of the project. Staffs have the opinion that the development contains a reasonable ratio of commercial to residential uses. The project is seeking relief from certain development standards that are set forth in the HTC zoning district. A PUD must provide public benefits to surrounding neighborhood as mentioned above and beyond what can be reasonably achieved by the zoning provisions. The Board of Aldermen may approve alternatives to zoning regulations, subdivision regulations or design standards applicable to the property when rezoning to a PUD in exchange for these public benefits. The number of requested modifications to development standards drives the number of public benefits that a developer is required to provide in terms of the point scale set forth in Section 405.1380 of the zoning regulations. All PUDs provide at least one public benefit or combination of public benefits that total at least 10 points. In addition to that 10-point minimum, the additional points are required for any code alternative. Each code alternative requested must be provided with a total of five public benefit points. In the staff report, there are two tables. Table one outlines the code alternatives being requested, which establishes a minimum of 30 points for their proposed development. Table two includes an analysis of the proposed public benefits as outlined by the developer. Staff has provided an analysis in terms of the points we recommend awarding for each section. We can go into those in more detail, but I will not spend time at this moment summarizing all of them. Instead, I'll move to the criteria for approval section of the code. The site is... The site is located in the Central Station District as identified in the Downtown Master Plan. The vision of this district is to create a walkable, high-density mixed-use district with significant new office development and high-density multifamily rental residential infill oriented around the Clayton Metrolink Transit Station. The proposed development does include office and high-dense density residential, and staff is of the opinion the proposed development is consistent with the Downtown Master Plan, The existing landscape areas and trees on the site will be removed to accommodate the proposed structure. The entrance to the bank at the southwest corner of the building is recessed to provide a larger landing area under an overhang. This design feature is somewhat similar to the existing plaza located at the corner. However, it will be more open to the public without the raised planter beds. The use of the planting areas along the public sidewalk will bring a natural element to the public realm and enhance the pedestrian experience along South Bemiston. The development will also include new street trees as part of the city standard streetscape. The applicant is proposing a pocket park along the Eastern property line. The area will feature permeable pavers with seating areas, planting areas, an art piece and a dog run. The pocket park will be open to the public and will provide an activated area between two garage structures. The plantings will include a mixture of ground cover evergreens and shrubs to replace the raised planter beds currently located throughout the site. This will also create a unique opportunity for public art. Outdoor amenity space is proposed for both the office and residential uses. A covered deck is located at the southeast corner of the tower on the second floor. This area will be accessible from the office space. The residential amenity deck is located on top of the garage structure or level four of the tower. This space includes a pool, grill station, and open seating area for the residential use. The proposed parking garage will have 400 or 342 parking spaces. The first level of the garage will provide open public access. However, 23 of the 29 spaces on this level will be reserved for use by bank employees during bank hours. Outside of the bank hours, the first level of parking will be open and available for the general public. The upper floors of the garage with 313 spaces will be restricted to bank and employee and resident access only. The proposed parking garage is located on the eastern portion of the site. The tower provides screening and active uses along South Bemiston Avenue. However, the garage is located on Carondelet Avenue without a buffer or a screen. The proposed lot orientation results in two adjacent parking structures facing the north side of Carondelet Avenue. Parking garages do not contribute to a friendly and welcoming pedestrian environment that is desired in the downtown area. However, they also provide a necessary service to support the abuses. The introduction of the pocket park will help with the potential activation of this area. However, the park is recessed between two tall structures and will have limited impact on the sidewalk unless you are directly adjacent to the entrance. The design locates all the back of house services along the alley, which will limit the direct interaction of large trucks and pedestrians. To create an efficient and safe garage design, the applicant has stated that it must extend the garage to the property line along Crandallette Avenue. This design is not ideal for the reasons outlined above. However, there are ways to still buffer the use and activate the street wall. The applicant is proposing to skin the garage with a glazing system similar to the tower. The use of varying opacity and frit patterns of the glass are intended to make the solid blank wall more appealing. Staff agrees that this direction of design and architectural element can mitigate some of the impacts of a garage along Carondelet Avenue. However, staff feels that some enhancement are still required. More detailed analysis is contained in the architectural staff report. In conclusion, the project will provide a desired mixed use development and a prominent corner in downtown. The development aligns with the vision of the downtown master plan and includes a variety of uses that will help generate visitors and pedestrian traffic throughout the day. However, the development has not met the minimum point requirements to be eligible for a public for a PUD. staff that are therefore recommends to hear the presentation from the applicant and public comments and recommends that the request for PUD rezoning architectural review and plat and site plan review are continued to allow the applicant to address remaining comments.

Okay, thank you. Okay, okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. City Manager David Gipson, we appreciate the opportunity to share tonight and talk about this mixed use development and the request for the PUD. We are also receiving your comments from the committee. We're here to answer any questions that you have. We seek recommendation ultimately from the committee to the city council for approval of the request to develop this project. And we anticipate that assuming that can take place here and through the process that we would break ground on this project in the fall early part of the fall. So before we get started, I want to thank the city Clayton planning and zoning on and her staff for their guidance and insights as we've pulled this together and our application over the last several months they've been a lot of meetings and correspondence back and forth very helpful. from this interaction, we understand that the purpose of the architectural process, review process is to assure that there's project, all the projects that Kawanna and Clayton here have conformity to the high quality standards and architectural integrity of the prescribed ordinances. We intend to follow that with our project here all the way through. I'll take just a second and make a comment. For many of the people on our team, we've been involved in other projects here in town PB, Harmon Zuckerman, Already, so this is not something that knew the first time we brought this to the table and we gathered everybody here we brought. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, A really solid team from the architecture side the developer side our partner is sterling bank will currently occupies portion of the site. PB, HarmonZuckerberg, And it's not lost on us that the beautiful skyline that clayton has right now, as a result of the input that we get from this forum here from this architectural review. To that end, we deliberately designed this high rise apartment mixed use building to be highly attractive, a modern structure, inviting not only from the skyline and added benefit to an already beautiful skyline but equally impressive at street level too and you'll get into that a little bit. This is gonna be evidenced by the materials that we've used, which are intended to compliment the character of the surrounding properties and a really intentional focus on our part to pay attention to the experiential impact of this project on the city, on the business community, on the central business district itself, to the general public, to visitors, to Clayton, as well as to the residents in the building. We've created, I think, and you'll hear about that from some of the folks that were joining me here, but we've created a really inviting pedestrian experience in this pocket park that Ms. Kranz mentioned. We paid attention to walkability, to sustainability features, all part of the ordinances, and to the streetscape experience. Our feasibility, a couple other points unrelated necessarily, not for discussion on the architectural side of things tonight, but our feasibility research indicates we're going to bring 350 some new residents to the city when the project is completed. And the demographic impact of this is that on average, this will be each of those folks will have average annual income about $100,000 a year. That translates into a buying power of 10 to $12 million being brought to the city. And responding to that, we also have incorporated as was mentioned about 11,000 square feet of retail space. Some of it is a replacement of what's existing there in the form of the bank lobby for Sterling Bank and then additional retail space as well. With that, I'm gonna introduce for just a second, members of the team that have put this together, and then ask our lead architect, Tom Young, to talk for just a minute about some of the features of this, and then we'll step aside and take all your questions. Okay? So tonight with me is principals from Green Street, Phil Hulse, the applicant, and Kevin Morrell. Tom Young, I mentioned a minute ago, is with Green Street as well. He's our lead architect. Josh Goodman is with HDA, a wholly owned subsidiary architecture firm of Green Street. We're a vertically integrated company. And Lee Hess as well. Lee is with Loomis Landscape Architects and he'll talk a lot about the pocket part that Ms. Grimes mentioned. Rain, I'm sorry, Anna, keep saying that. Anyway, with that, Tom, you wanna take a few minutes?

Okay, thank you. Okay, okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. City Manager Gibson, we appreciate the opportunity to share tonight and talk about this mixed use development and the request for the PUD. We are also receiving your comments from the committee. We're here to answer any questions that you have. We seek recommendation ultimately from the committee to the city council for approval of the request to develop this project. And we anticipate that assuming that can take place here and through the process that we would break ground on this project in the fall early part of the fall. So before we get started, I want to thank the city Clayton planning and zoning on and her staff for their guidance and insights as we've pulled this together and our application over the last several months they've been a lot of meetings and correspondence back and forth very helpful. from this interaction, we understand that the purpose of the architectural process, review process is to assure that there's project, all the projects that Kawanna and Clayton here have conformity to the high quality standards and architectural integrity of the prescribed ordinances. We intend to follow that with our project here all the way through. I'll take just a second and make a comment. For many of the people on our team, we've been involved in other projects here in town PB, Harmon Zuckerman, Already, so this is not something that knew the first time we brought this to the table and we gathered everybody here we brought. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, A really solid team from the architecture side the developer side our partner is sterling bank will currently occupies portion of the site. PB, HarmonZuckerberg, And it's not lost on us that the beautiful skyline that clayton has right now, as a result of the input that we get from this forum here from this architectural review. To that end, we deliberately designed this high rise apartment mixed use building to be highly attractive, a modern structure, inviting not only from the skyline and added benefit to an already beautiful skyline but equally impressive at street level too and you'll get into that a little bit. This is gonna be evidenced by the materials that we've used, which are intended to compliment the character of the surrounding properties and a really intentional focus on our part to pay attention to the experiential impact of this project on the city, on the business community, on the central business district itself, to the general public, to visitors, to Clayton, as well as to the residents in the building. We've created, I think, and you'll hear about that from some of the folks that were joining me here, but we've created a really inviting pedestrian experience in this pocket park that Ms. Kranz mentioned. We paid attention to walkability, to sustainability features, all part of the ordinances, and to the streetscape experience. Our feasibility, a couple other points unrelated necessarily, not for discussion on the architectural side of things tonight, but our feasibility research indicates we're going to bring 350 some new residents to the city when the project is completed. And the demographic impact of this is that on average, this will be each of those folks will have average annual income about $100,000 a year. That translates into a buying power of 10 to $12 million being brought to the city. And responding to that, we also have incorporated as was mentioned about 11,000 square feet of retail space. Some of it is a replacement of what's existing there in the form of the bank lobby for Sterling Bank and then additional retail space as well. With that, I'm gonna introduce for just a second, members of the team that have put this together, and then ask our lead architect, Tom Young, to talk for just a minute about some of the features of this, and then we'll step aside and take all your questions. Okay? So tonight with me is principals from Green Street, Phil Hulse, the applicant, and Kevin Morrell. Tom Young, I mentioned a minute ago, is with Green Street as well. He's our lead architect. Josh Goodman is with HDA, a wholly owned subsidiary architecture firm of Green Street. We're a vertically integrated company. And Lee Hess as well. Lee is with Loomis Landscape Architects and he'll talk a lot about the pocket part that Ms. Grimes mentioned. Rain, I'm sorry, Anna, keep saying that. Anyway, with that, Tom, you wanna take a few minutes?

Oh, okay. You all see

my screen? OK. As Jerry mentioned, my name is Tom Young. I'm an architect with Green Street and HGA. So I was just going to run through some of our concepting, how we arrived at design that you've had the privilege of reviewing in the past couple weeks. So Jerry had intro'd with a couple of slides of just the context. And we can flip back and forth casually as we go through the presentation. But just the Clayton skyline, several views to reference towers that have been built or under construction. The site big picture bird's-eye view from the southwest. So we've indicated the site dashed here in yellow at the northeastern corner of Crandallet and Beavison. It's the existing Sterling Bank space in that corner plaza. Zoomed in shot for context. So recently, I know Centene reclad this tower project and it painted The existing precast parking structure, so we would be demolishing this collection of structures just to the west of that. The alley on the north end where all the services will be accessed up on the northeast corner of our building. This is just some existing context photos that we can reference to come back to as we work through the design, but a view from the southwest of the existing Sterling Bank building. PB, Harmon Zuckerman, This is a view of the alley and Louie's to the north, so the existing condition of sterling which is a access point mostly masonry pretty solid wall. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, And then you step down grades great drops pretty greatly pretty quickly from the intersection of being missing and chronic as you move east down towards that centene garage. repaint and centene office building recladding just to the east. So our property line occurs approximately just right behind these bushes. There's existing on this corner, there are three curb cuts to access three garage access points. So one here at the northwestern portion of the site, and then two down along Carondelet. So one here and one over here. It's kind of, this is a photo that is all kind of semi-combined. So this is what we were proposing. So this is viewing from the southwest corner, Carondelet on the right side of your page, Bemiston on the left side. And I'll go through some of the massing concepts and sample diagrams of how we kind of came to the structural overview tonight. So in the lower right-hand portion, just big picture diagram is the program massing. So we chose to locate the parking structure adjacent to an existing parking structure. We placed the access point at the low end of the site. So we didn't have it on the prominent Beemiston Avenue or at the high end of the site, so it naturally got tucked down at that southeastern corner because gray drops approximately 12 feet from that corner, the existing sterling corner down to the east end of the site so naturally that made sense. It also steps down the scale of the building as it moves to the east. We've identified this yellow program bar at the corner and on the west and along Bemiston, and we said commercial use at the accessible topo. Like I mentioned before, Coronelet drops pretty quickly as you move to the east. So we identified a good zone for the commercial space and retail to occur. The commercial space I'm referencing the second floor is Sterling Bank's corporate headquarters, but at the southwestern corner there would be their retail space, retail location, and then we'd have another residential entry point location, and then a small cafe that would be accessible off the western facade. So facade massing. So once we located the garage, and we placed the residential bar, it made sense contextually to step down the scale as you move to the east down Crandallet to relate to the existing structure scale. And then to place at this prominent corner, a vertical marker that became that residential tower. You can kind of see a dashed frame here that indicates where we've highlighted that second floor commercial space that will be Sterling Bank's headquarters to create an architectural identifier and relate to the context of the north Louie's and adjacent structures. Um, the tower itself, uh, will be clad in glass. Um, and we opened the corners. We featured a residential balcony at all four corners creating really rather than just a large glass block, really four glass planes. So we created a gasketed condition at each corner, um, to make the structure appear more delicate. Um, and also just to break up the monotony of the facades. Um, TAB, Mark McIntyre:" Another thing that helps us decide this basic program mass in the lower right hand corner is the solar orientation for what would become the residential exterior amenity deck so South. TAB, Mark MCIntyre:" In the lower right hand quarter so as the sun works its way across the sky through through the day, especially summer hours, most of our son is received at that said that pool deck. TAB, Jack Schulte, throughout the day and then it's blocked the late evening stronger raise the low raise the sun will be blocked by the tower. The only other options we could have configured was to put the tower further to the east, but again, contextually didn't make sense. Like these were the correct like urban massing moves that we adhered to and also some of the feedback we received at the first concept architecture review over a year ago. So a lot of these adjustments were based on that first round of feedback we've received from you all. Facade break. So again, the glass tower will reflect The surrounding context will reflect the sky, skylight, sky color. But we then decided rather than have projected balconies or no balconies at all, which most of these apartments do have that you see going up around the country, we actually recessed our balconies throughout the facade to create strong break lines within. So shadow, recess, reflection. And like I said, that helps break up what is the west facade along Bemis and Gareth J. facade systems, so we created a layer effect on the upper tower by using an extra extruded aluminum CAP at the slab edge so it's got more of an appearance than. Gareth J. Like a concrete slab edge so approximately 10 to 12 inches of extruded aluminum and then the secondary system would be. SSG verticals, which is basically a structurally glazed glass system. So it kind of goes to the backdrop. So rather than having like an aluminum cap or something that would conflict with the aluminum floor slab horizontals, that was our thought. We used a punched opening and detailed masonry solution on the west end along Bemiston. Again, just to create an interesting experience for the pedestrian. We have a series of punch openings and then some white masonry with some recessed bricks to create some detailing and some interesting lighting that will create a textured effect. On the garage, so that it didn't appear to just be a garage with a precast, you know, Spandrel panels or verticals. We clad it in a similar system. We didn't want it to look just like the tower. We kind of wanted to look like another building that was of the same family. So we created a glass facade with AB patterning created by a frit pattern and a similar glazing to the tower. So again, of the same family, but a unique appeal. to us is timeless and also relates to the adjacent precast centene garage that was recently repainted. So it's not as repetitive. Like I said, we're using AV patterning where there's just more of a regular patterning system. But again, we're relating somewhat to the adjacent structure. And the final diagram was really about the pedestrian experience. So there's kind of a blow up of this diagram to say if we worked from the northwestern corner PB, Harmon Zuckerman, along being the sin we resize we recess that first floor that I spoke about previously, that was that that masonry and punched opening solution. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, Again, so just wasn't all glass it added like a layer of texture and permits with the masonry we pulled that in approximately 30 to 36 inches and provided a planter. to improve the pedestrian experience. We created a recessed primary entry for Sterling's Retail Bank. They're our partner on this project, so we wanted it to be an important location at the transition from Bemis into Crandallet. We then created two secondary entries, one for the residential tower. Most of the residents will be coming in through the garage and then going through the elevator up to their units. But we created two secondary recessed TAB, Mark McIntyre:" entry points one for the residential entry lobby and two for the secondary retailer that could be a cafe I believe it's approximately 1800 square feet of retail space and I mentioned this before, where, then we highlighted. TAB, Mark MCIntyre:" and try to break down the scale and relate to louie's just the north across the alley by providing an architectural frame around. Sterling banks, second floor headquarters space. Um, and then I think this was mentioned in the report at the Southeastern portion, we have a recessed volume. So as you look up from the pedestrian experience, walking down along, along Bemis or along Crandallette, there'll be a soffit and you'll see that in some of these materials, but a recess. So there's a lot of activity really going on as you work your way down Crandallette and an open corner, uh, framed commercial space at the second floor, Sterling's retail location at the first floor. As you work your way down approximately 10 feet to the southeastern corner, we decided to pull the glass from the garage down to grade. We don't have a retail location at that point, but we are pulling down glass that will provide reflection texture over some solid material. And then at this corner, there's the break. Again, we're removing three curb cuts and providing one at the low end of the site and then this pocket park that we'll review here in a minute that is a space between the existing centene garage. And we had to offset our building 14 foot off of our property line due to an existing easement. So there's approximately 25 feet of space that will be nicely landscaped with some seating areas and potentially public art. So this is just a bird's eye view of the tower with that amenity deck, like I said, located on this southern portion of the parking structure. So we've done our job as far as like cladding this and hopefully making it go away as a parking structure. But again, it made sense on this portion of the site adjacent to an existing repetitive precast structure. This would be that pocket park location. And I think from there, Lee, I don't know if you want to... So Lee's our landscape architect. He's just going to talk about the pocket park quickly, and then we'll have some questions and we can kind of go back and forth. So thanks for your time. So Lee, I have this slide on this side. So however you want

to talk.

Yeah, my name is Lee Hess. I'm with Loomis Associates Landscape Architects. So I'm here to walk you through the design of this pocket park. As Tom said, the existing building, you can see my cursor is roughly about the edge of where we have the... park shown here in the middle of the alley. So currently between the proposed garage face and property line is roughly 14 to 15 feet. And the length of the park from the existing sidewalk to the alley is about 190 feet, I believe. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Got it. All right, that's

good. So we're looking rotated now. North is to the right. as we work our way from south to north or from left to right into the space. We're proposing a surfacing of permeable concrete pavers that are patterned as such to imply movement through the space. Fiberglass planters will flank each side of the park with tree plantings and ornamental plantings in those. We have to do planters with trees because there is a 10 foot wide easement, MSD easement that we cannot plant trees in. So those trees have to be elevated above and movable. The yellow dots shown along the dashed zigzag line are what are called catenary lights. know what cafe lights are that you often see it actually shown there at the top there in that example picture, something similar to that. So that'll be a cable that zigzags back and forth and then lights positioned on those cables along the implied path there in the middle. Furniture wise, we're proposing occasional benches and bistro tables and chairs, lightweight tables and chairs. So the benches would be fastened to the pavers so they would be permanent. Or I say permanent. They would be removable, but they would not be. You'd have to use a tool to remove them. The bistro furniture would be movable. That would not be permanent furniture. As Tom mentioned before, this is a good opportunity to incorporate some artwork into the space. We don't know yet what the scale or the design of that feature is. We still need to talk to some artists and figure out materials and that sort of thing and scale. As we move farther to the right and to the north, we come up to the dog run, which is um a fenced dog run that abuts the garage so it's about eight and a half feet wide by um oh, 50 to 55 feet long within the fenced area. That'll be a six foot high fence with what are called puppy panels, which are tighter picket for smaller dogs and that sort of thing. It will be artificial turf. It'll be a turf that is specially formulated for, created for dogs. So it's on a clean aggregate base, it's drainable. The walk continues along the east side of that dog park. It's about five foot wide and that takes you north to the alley out of the park. And I'll mention that we've been in talks with Centene about possibly expanding this park to incorporate the entire width of the alley. They simply just need to see some more details on the park and before we can make any commitments on that.

Any questions?

If I may, just to make sure I understand where this is. This is between the two garages. Is that right? And it's only going to be 14 feet wide, which isn't very wide, but it seems like you have a quite attractive...

It doesn't sound wide. It doesn't, but it does. You can fit a lot of activity in that amount of...

I'm trying to picture two dogs in a space of eight feet wide. That'd be pretty... That'd be pretty tough. If I walk down that walkway, if I look on your new garage, am I looking at cars that are... No, it's a solid. It's a solid? And what is it covered with? Just so we know now.

So currently, Tom Young with Green Street HGA. So on the east portion of the garage, the first level and a half are clad in, right now it's CMU block, but up above that it is open. When you say up,

up above when I start the second floor. Let me

go back to this image. So along this face through here, and I could pull up some of the drawings that we submitted as far as our architectural submitted, but you can see up above there's an openness requirement so garages can breathe because of the exhaust fumes. So up above the second floor, approximately first floor, one and a half levels because of how ramping works would be you know, a CME block wall. And we talked about maybe having a mural on that or some other material. So it's still being developed. As Lee mentioned, I mean, you can see where this is highlighted as offsite. That's our property line along where these pavers exist. We had to relocate. The existing building is built over that easement, but we couldn't build a new building over it. So we have 14 feet and then we're in talks with Centene to say, hey, would you be okay with us maybe having additional plantings and other vegetation so that it is truly from wall to wall 25 foot approximately. So when he says 14 foot, it can be deceiving.

Yeah.

And I do have a PDF I could pull up and zoom in. It's kind of hard.

From my perspective, I think what you've done to landscape that A 14-foot width is quite admirable. It's very attractive. I'm just trying to imagine the experience. If I walk down there on Centene's Garage, I assume that's open, right?

There are precast panels. It's partially open. Same kind of rationale. Like the first

story and a half is solid, and after that, it's all open, right? Correct. I might be

able to see that in one of these indent shots.

Can you just speak into the microphone so that the recording picks you up? Thanks.

And to give some sense of scale and to how wide that is, walking two dogs down, it's about the distance between this desk here. It's about 25 feet or so. That includes going up to the edge of the Centene garage. So 14 of it is the setback from our garage, and then another 10 feet is the setback and the 17 garage so it's about that sort of distance to your point about the elevation up to the second level, we will enclose. The ball on our property and use that as an opportunity for mural or art or a green. Green landscape wall feature sort of like this one showing here, so it is actually pretty wide area and it runs 186 feedback to the alleyway right. Um, the example that's up here is a couple of different places. There's one in Philadelphia that are roughly the same diameter or same width. Okay. We'll try to give some scale to it to give if that was helpful to you. And then the next one down is a location in an alleyway like this. Um, that's in Denver, um, on what's known as the dairy block in downtown central business district of Denver too. And this actually is less than 25 feet wide in here, but it all comes down to the activation of it and how from a property management standpoint, as we build the space out, we make things happen there. And I think with Sterling Banks, corporate citizen mindset, ours of course, and Centene, it'll be a very active place.

I mean, like I say, it's admirable what you do, but when you look at that Denver, there are entrances. You actually go into places where you are talking about, it's like two walls. of garages you're going, I mean, you're going through and there's no light that's ever gonna be there. I'm not, I'm saying it's not gonna be perfect, but you have to work with what you got.

Yeah, I think we took the approach of this is historically, you know, under utilized space or an overlooked areas of setback in commercial developments that are usually just left to being areas that collect, you know, fences or, you know, people park things in there. We don't want to do that. We want to make it, we want to appeal to the city's walkability, you know, and create some park-like fashion. And

if I move to the garage on the front on Carondelet, it's entirely a garage, right? It's not like Centene's garage buildings where it's first floor retail Is that

right?

Right. So as I walked down, you know, I went by Sterling's buildings, I'll call them right before I came here and they're actually quite attractive to me anyway. You know, it's nice. It's, it's pedestrian scale and I get all that. But in your garage, you put a new skin on it, right?

Correct. It's clad in a glazing system similar to the actual tower. But we added some frit and some AB patterning to make it kind of its own distinctive architecture. And we pulled glass not all the way down to grade, but we thought it was more interesting to kind of hold it up a couple of feet and continue some of the masonry down below it.

So

you have two garages joining one another, one owned by Centene, one proposed by you guys. And there's no way to make that too pedestrian friendly. I mean, it's just going to be, I know you're trying to cover it up, I guess, but it's just kind of like a pedestrian desert there for a while and crying to let. whereas right now it we don't have that and i just point that out because i'm trying to understand your project

i would say like if you look at what's there currently it is a lot of solid it's a lot of parking garage entries um right right so and and if you look this is over i mean other than sterling they're they're the corner uh open space and the retail bank but there's a lot of solid there too especially on the alley side with garage access so Basically, our whole facade along Bemison is glass-lined retail, an open corner, recessed corner with retail. The reality is a lot of these buildings, you just can't line them with retail. You just can't. And that's where we... What we did on the southern facade as a gesture was took one clad in glass and not precast panels like the adjacent garage has. So something that will reflect surrounding context, the sky, and then we added some fritting and detailing to make it more interesting. So that was the intent. But as we looked at the existing building, there's a lot of solid there. just solid masonry. So we thought with just garage opening, we thought, well, glass and pulling it down to gray would be a better look at that side. And then if we could introduce, like I said, the existing building is built on the property line. We can't rebuild at that edge. So we have another 15 foot So between that and the space between Centene's garage and their property line, which is 11 feet, so approximately 25 feet, we thought we could make something interesting. And hopefully with Centene's help, like they will allow us to put more greenery and more space or more softness in that alley. At this point, they're intrigued and they're interested to work with us. We're just introducing as a concept to see. Right. I mean,

Tom, when I look at your project initially, I like the fact that you have so many people that will be living in Clayton to come out. And at the end of the day, the whole idea of Clayton is to make it a mixed use where people can live and work and play there at the same time for that to happen. When people walk by your building, I want it to be pedestrian friendly. That's why we have concepts like, you know, not your project, but other projects, you know, the second floor is step back and make it more pedestrian scale, um, So you feel you're not going along a wall. And then I look at your project, it's another

glass. So here's what the existing condition at this corner. So these two buildings and two access points to the garage and the masonry, and here's what we're proposing. So one access point at the loan of the site, some glass fritting, And the second layer or third layer of glass would actually have diffused gray material on it, so you wouldn't be seeing cars. From the garage side, you would be seeing basically glowing panels, but from the pedestrian side, you wouldn't be seen cars because it's diffused glass. And like I said, we pulled glass down the street. So at least while you're walking along Coronelette, there's reflection and texture more so than... Right now, there are some planters out there.

Can you go back to the previous picture? So as I walk up, the street there, I go past the garage. Does the building recess in at that point?

Not on this face, no. Well, up above. So on the second story, this is Sterling's corporate headquarters. They wanted like a terrace space. So when they host events or get togethers, they could spill out on that from there. We're still working through the plan.

Ignoring that punched in space, which is nice. Is it just a vertical wall of basically walking by?

potentially, yeah.

So this is from the high end of the site. So this is that recessed sterling entry. Here's the frame we talked about that frames their second store corporate headquarters. And then you can see we have, so there is some masonry here, but we've added some detail and offset bricks and added some texture so it's not just a solid wall. And then as you work your way down, you can kind of see this is that garage line where we pulled glass down. So as you walk along Cronolet, There's retail about halfway down, right? So this is all their retail bag location. And then up above on the second floor is their corporate headquarters. And then you work your way down to the garage. So even compared to what's now there, I think it's certainly a softer experience potentially. Less curb cuts, less garage doors, less driveways, and so on.

Well, the fact that you have fewer driveways is always good. I mean, there's no issue on that one. And as a glass building, Clayton has so many of them. I think we cornered the market in St. Louis sometimes, I think on glass buildings. This is a

detailed shot. So I had mentioned earlier along Bemiston where we provided another texture with these masonry pilasters, punched openings, and we had some texture with some lights that'll wash that in the night, evening hours, so you have some shadow and some nice detail. Um, we talked about this recessed planter, you know, for now we're showing these little objects. There was potential for that public art component either to occur at the alley side, or if we did these like inter, you know, intermittent pieces along that Western facade, that was another option. I know when we got, went through some of this application project on some other, uh, some other developments that we had talked about that, like we would work with a commissioned artists that worked with, um, with Clayton to get something you were all on board with. So that was one thought as a concept.

I mean, all these changes to all these additions, like to give texture and maybe you set back a foot here or there and you try to break the line a little bit. I mean, to me, and it's always easy, well, To me, those are all minor accumulations to what's basically a large rectangular glass building. Again, we're adding the Clayton with a flat top.

And I so- I will say like, again, I'm going to hop right back to the context image to say, here's what we're putting in here.

And here's what's there now.

So a garage entry and a big, brick wall, there is, I mean, obviously Sterling has their retail entry at their corner as you move further south. But again, our whole facade along Bemiston will be glass and retail and not brick and garage entries. So

the fact that you're taking down older buildings, I can understand that, but that doesn't mean that glass building is automatically gonna be better having how many stories? 25 stories. Clayton is something I would like to see as desirable to walk around. I just don't want to pass one... I'm not saying your building is boring right here, but there's so many boring buildings in Clayton with glass and just vertical lines. And I go to other cities all over country and all over the world when i see interesting looks and you know it could make you feel good walking with a friend as you go to lunch or somewhere and if all i'm doing is just walking past walls under the guise of nice looking glass and people living in them or people working in them i i i really take a hard look That's what I'm trying to say. I really take a hard look. Is there something we could do a little different to add a little flavor to make it more pedestrian friendly? And I'm not the architect. It's kind of like, I know when I see it and I just have a hard time seeing it here. But you always have the last word.

Obviously everyone's got their own personal opinion and aesthetic. And I think The other thing we work with are rents that you can get in this market and budgets for construction. And I think we first visited you all like 18 months ago. So we have been adjusting this design based on feedback we got, but also constructability and what this market can pull off. And that's... And we think we've pulled together a really great version of that for tonight. Well,

listen, I think you guys do great work. And when you bring Green Street's name in here, I always say, oh, wow, I'm really in for a great show, you know, because they do great work. I'm looking at this and what I see is another, I feel like I'm looking at... all the glass buildings in Clayton. And that's not necessarily a compliment. I mean, you know, it's, Bill, you want to say something or? I

think a couple of things. What we're doing is bringing people here, which creates dynamics that you don't have. And, you know, I've done a lot of work in the city, which you're probably aware of. And one of the biggest challenges is in a city like Clayton, We have a population before COVID that was probably 47,000 people. Most of them left. You ended up with something around 17,000. I think that was enough. So what we're trying to bring is street activity, balconies and character to the neighborhood that's not there now. Because when you walk by, in fact, I parked down there this evening. it feels like a very cold structure because it is, it's tired, it's worn out. And Sterling knows that too. They need a different perspective. They want to be here as a corporate citizen. So integrating their retail bank, their corporate office with the balcony, to creating the streetscape that has some texture to it that's soft in terms of the plantings, the trees, how we're changing that. People going in and out of this building by the hundreds changes what's there today. And For me, what's missing here in Clayton is the engaged people piece of it. It's not just one building. We're looking at several other buildings here that bring hotels and activities, rooftops, things like that, that change where people go. So when a young person travels through Clayton, he typically moves on to the Mon area, Central West End or to the Grove because there's street life there. And it's because of the people that you bring to that destination.

Phil, I agree 100% with what you just said. So tell me how having this 25-story building where it comes up, right?

Well, there's economics.

It's like a dam wall we have there. Tell me how that engages the people on the streets. Well, you have a site that is

very expensive to develop. In fact, when we did our budget, the first time we were, I think, $20 million out of whack, close to $18, $20 million. So there's some physical demands that you put on a site to make it work. And you have to have enough density, and you have to have no scale to underwrite what a site like this is probably close to $13 million. So it's basic math. At the same time, you want to create something that has character and texture and also some dimension to it that defines the architecture. we haven't shown you the video, but there's a video that walks you down around this building that feels a lot better. And the pocket park is really instrumental in kind of being creative about how do you do something in an urban setting that provides something unique and different. And you see this when I travel around the country, when you go to Denver and a lot of other tight urban settings, these pocket parks that you create off of the alleyways are really truly unique and different. And I know with Sterling Bank, they have a lot of events. We could do events there with the apartment people as well. You know, it's dog park activates. And I know when we've done all of our apartment developments in the city, having that dog park, which seems incidental, is a great way for people to interact and connect with each other. And I think this is just one of many projects that you'll see us do in Clayton, but we're bringing people here to activate the city, to spend money. I know in the sales tax realm, that's depressed right now because you don't have office users. What you want is real people living here, spending their dollars, and you have to create the environment for them to live here. And departments are probably the best way to do that because it's most economical way to bring young professionals to the market. But Phil,

you and I are both urban people. We know just building the buildings and putting people in there isn't enough. Tell me the neighborhood brings people out, brings them together, engages someone, which is more than just, I mean, you can't be responsible for all of downtown Clayton. I get that.

Well, I think, you know, part of the table. Well, there, there's a, you're not going to do it in one project. You're going to have to do multiple projects to create the texture you're looking for. We've been working with Michelle and how do you activate that Shaw park in a much more dramatic way? It's, it's multiple things. So when we go into the Grove, that's why I own 75 acres down there. I can't do it in one product, but I can do it in multiple projects that bring people together. You also bring, ultimately when you start bringing young people here, it'll change the mix of retail. Really don't have the microbrews that you see in the city or the restaurants and the outdoor seating. That all comes through a collection of repertoire that you bring. You can't do it all in one building and fix what a city hasn't been able to accomplish because it's been too expensive for the young professional to come here and buy and be a part of it. And I think our whole chemistry is changing in the sense that young people don't necessarily want to own things. They want to experience things. They want use their money in a much different way. And we see it dramatically in what we're doing in the city. And we create these more experiential environments and community feel because we will create activities through how we run this apartment building. You just don't let people live there. You engage them with the community and how you interact with it. And it happens through probably five, six, seven projects that you put together that bring this dynamic to the city.

Everything you say, I agree with. I just like to think that every time a building comes into Clayton, it adds something to that experiential

experience. Sure, which I think we will with the rooftop. pool and the amenities that we'll have there, the workout facilities, the chemistry. And we'll have 350 people, 300 plus people that weren't here in Clayton before. And I think we're missing the young person here in a dramatic way.

At the end, we have to go through this schedule of points. You have to have 30 points. Is that right? 10 of public benefits. And we may get a sense of where we are on that. and then decide what to do. But I've talked enough, so let me pass it over to you. So

this is a $137 million project. So it's making a huge impact in terms of our investment in the city. And it's one of many that we hope to bring. But one of our biggest challenges right now is just the upside down economics of building. The cost of everything has been inflated. interest rates are up. So part of what we spent the last year is how do we get this thing dialed in so we can actually do it? And so we had to look at a lot of the structure elements of the garage, keeping it separate from the podium of the high rise and looking at just the physical dimensions and structure of the building, all the materials. And actually we improved materials because we had a mix of exterior elements that aren't as I think as clean and good looking as this ultimately turned out to be.

You know, I cannot take away from the fact it is attractive in many ways. And I'm very aware of the cost that's involved. And every time somebody like me opens their mouth, it's like cha-ching maybe a little bit. But my point is, tell me what you're building adds to the quality of Clayton's downtown community. I know Sterling is a longtime member citizen here, and that goes a ways with me. But I want to know, how does it fit into the big picture? And tell me, we're just not building, I used to call some other building, it looks like a vertical warehouse, you know? Well, this is

not a vertical warehouse. No, I know,

I know.

But I think what it does is it brings people in very simple terms. When you bring people, you bring chemistry, and you bring energy and excitement. And when we build these things, we create amenities that nobody else has, whether it's pools, exercise, engagement. There's just lots of things in this building that speak to what young people are looking for. And Clayton, a lot of the energy, the restaurants close when you have 300. Maybe if we end up with another 1,000, 1,200 people, that changes how restaurants work and operate and who's here. And it all begins with people. And we had the same thing. When you drove into the Grove, it wasn't an exciting place when I started 10 years ago. We brought a lot of other things. Urban Chestnut, we brought Chauvin, we brought Rockwell, we brought Barquet, the Armory. It didn't happen in one building. What we're bringing is people and we bring people who live here, then the dynamics change

dramatically. Maybe Urban Chestnut should go in the first floor too with Sterling, I don't know. But let me move on. Sure. Did you want to...

Yeah, I just, and I feel, I really, I mean, I think it's wonderful to bring more people here. I mean, that was part of our goal when we did our master planning effort was to bring more people living in Clayton. And you were talking about all these wonderful establishments that I've been to that I would love to go to, but one of the problems I have, and I absolutely share Bob's concerns, you know, honestly, when you first look at your building, you're like, great, another rectangular glass building in Clayton. I, understand how expensive it is, the economics of it all, but you're asking us to approve a project that it's gonna be here for years and years and years. So it is our job to push you architecturally to make it more attractive. To that end, it's great that you're bringing people here, but I'm not seeing like there's gonna be, I mean, let's be honest, you guys keep talking about retail, there's a bank at the corner. So even if you go down to like the 212 building, that at least has peel at the bottom or if you're going to go down the street to be missed in place. There's going to be lots of retail at the bottom of that. I'm not sure what it's all, but that will create that activation. I mean, that's part of the problem I think here is, again, I want to keep Sterling. They're a great, you know, Clayton citizen, but that's where I think I'm having trouble is there's no activation down Carondelet you guys keep talking about, but we want people to come out of the building, you know, but you're not, maybe you're going to create this great environment in the building, but

Well, I think your retail will probably help happen a little differently than you're thinking. And it's not in your traditional retail. I understand that. Traditional retail is so expensive, so daunting. And all the retailers that we have written through COVID, we had to prop up, including our business, including oil. All of them struggled. And when you put them in an environment where rents are probably 35, 40 bucks a square foot, they can't do it. There is it's, you gotta think of a different solution. And that's why your park and some of the bigger spaces that can be creatively generated to be multipurpose and flexible is kind of how you do it here in Clayton. And we've met with Michelle to talk about how we would look at the park and how do you bring people here? Like when I originally started officing here, you had party in the parks. It was one of the most dynamic fun things that has kind of drifted away that could be reactivated, but you can add a lot of other things because the world's changed. People are looking for a mix of things that you can change and not just be one, you know, you walk in a 1500 square feet that you're energized. It's hard to do that. You need spaces that are bigger, that are more indoor, outdoor, that have another dimension to it. And we're doing it like we did in the armory. It's incredibly expensive to do something like that. And you have to have the right setting, the right place to do it. You can't just take a 1500 square foot space and say, you're going to energize the community because it's hard to do. Right.

I understand. But being creative about thinking about something to put in your building to add to the community. That's why we

got the pocket park.

And I think that that is

different.

And I do. I think that that's a great addition. People there with their

dogs, their friends that have come in that you don't see today.

And I mean, I think that's a great addition. Again, I think it's just thinking of something else. All these new buildings that are going up have something else. Even Forsyth Point is going to have an entertainment component to it. So that's what I'm just not seeing as much here.

Well, part of it is that we have Sterling Bank. So they're driving the bus. We're helping them actually do something they couldn't do on their own. They've had other developers look at this. We were the first ones to bring something that could actually financially work and incorporate them into who they want to be. They want a corporate image. And so they themselves, which they've done many times, have their own events there. You know, that's how I see this building getting activated through all their dynamics because they have a great customer base. So I think... This is a bigger global thing that you got to solve in Clayton and we can be a part of it, but you've got to use different resources than very expensive building that's being driven by the bank to some extent on the retail side. So they have an image. It's hard to put up, you know, a bunch of other things that are going to create conflict with what they're doing. They want to make this corporate. They're willing to invest with us. dollars to create something that's not in play right now. Not like every other building. This is much more dialed up, more thoughtful on all respects. There's no place here that has a terrace above the garage with all the plantings and outdoor that will create people and activity up there that's not

on any of the streets that I walk by.

I would say ditto to Bob's comments and to Bridget's comments. I do have a couple of questions, and maybe they're more detailed. I'm looking at that on my screen. And what is the sidewalk to underside soffit height? Are the people short or is that a two story

space.

15 feet okay. It just it looks. The sidewalks that's another question, what is the clear. sidewalk width from the. walking clear wood side of the brick around the trees to the planting area or to the building? I mean, that looks 10 feet or so, is it?

I could find that. I would have to sit and like

measure. 12 foot from...

Because the tree grade, it may be fine for a man's shoe, but for women's shoes, the size of women's feet, you can get caught in that. And if you're wearing high heels, forget it. You wouldn't have the experience, but take it from me.

Can you please speak into the microphone so that it's recorded? Thank you.

I think we're designing this for city standards, I believe, aren't we? As far as, yeah, the tree planters and so on, yeah.

Okay, the planters, but you can't walk across those planters comfortably.

I don't think we intend you to walk across.

Okay, what is the distance to the building? To the planters. Or to the planting that you've got in front of the building to the brick building?

There is. Look at the cursor here. yeah from the from the brick there. edge of the building is about.

eight feet

and then

another four feet to. or.

Okay, because that really impacts the pedestrian experience. If you've got to focus on who may be coming in the other direction so that you step aside and you don't walk into each other, or if you're walking two people and you're rendering shows, father and daughter maybe, can they truly walk side by side? That's pedestrian experience. The plan of the pocket park, you did show that to us. I love pocket parks. I think that's a great idea, but I'm between two garages. So I've got the exhaust from both and the centene garage is far handsomer than your garage wall will be. I mean, from that view, It's going to be a dark space. You're putting lights in it, and yes, you can put lights during the day to brighten it up, but what you see on the sides as you look up, on one side, the Centene Building, that parking garage wraps the facade around all four sides. Your garage has three exposed sides and three different elevation treatments,

which I find

problematic because rarely do you really see something just head on. Usually you're seeing it at an angle. So you're seeing that as you walk. And the way the pocket park is designed, that can be a shortcut. Instead of walking to the corner of Beamiston and Carondelet,

you can shortcut through. So

that bothers me. The

question for the park regarding the pocket park is like, we can't build anything there. So it could just be concrete, you know, like, so we're, we can do that too. I mean, we want to make it nice and improve it and make it an asset to the community. And maybe it only the nicer section of only, only went back 30, 40 feet. So it wasn't, I think there was some feedback that said it was desirable to have a connection up to the alley for due to some future development on the North side of the alley, but yeah. We're trying to make it nice and interesting. And again, because of the easement, it could also just be a fence and asphalt.

No, I think the pocket park is great. I like it. But I think it needs further refinement. And if you can get Centene to be a part of it, that would be good. I don't mind that it's open at the alley end. In fact, that can be a safety feature. Dead ends are not that safe. It would be wonderful if you could pull the retail, that cafe there. In Sydney, Australia, their downtown uses the alleys with a lot of retail. And it's wonderful. I mean, just like the one that you showed, I think it was Denver, one of your photographs. I would think about that. And I realize economics, I've dealt with that.

Let's see. I think that's it.

I think I'm in agreement with everything that's been said before. Um, I do like the idea of bringing people into the city. Um, I just think the building is just a little underwhelming. I mean, it's definitely better than what is there now. What's not, it's that point. Um, but I do think, you know, like the thought behind, you know, what you have on Bemisden with like the punched openings, the texture like that to me, um, you know, creates like the pedestrians, like wanting to walk by there and stuff. I think what you have along Carondelet, however, people are just passing by. Like there's no interaction with the building really. There's no, I mean, even like planters or something needs to be there because right now, like all that is on the same plane, right? Except for that setback on the second floor. Is that right? But there's not even like any dimension really besides the opening into the garage, right?

There's like mullion cap extensions around this glass garage. Pretty much it's on

the same plane, right?

Correct. Like all this glass, like that first surface is all on the same plane. Right. And then... I

mean, you're just walking by. There's no real interaction with that, with the building. I mean, I don't know how you solve that with like your retail, the bank and stuff, but to me, that's just, there's no pedestrian interaction at all. And then the pocket park, I like that idea of it. But it's so hidden. I don't know if like your stair tower with the garage, if you like set it back, so you almost get a peek of it when you're like walking down. Beamison might bring people in that are, you know, just of the public and not just the residences of the pocket park. And I noticed in all your renderings, it's green. But that's not the case, right? It's going to be more pavers. There's no grass being grown there. It's just plants and planters. Is that accurate?

We didn't represent the park in these images. We just said reference landscape drawings, in the package at least. So we just kind of always identified that the park was the landscape realm, if that makes sense.

Right. But it's like in that one you just skipped by, it was just... So it really will just be more concrete, right? Yeah.

with a series of green planters that kind of jump in and out of that pattern. Okay. Yeah, there will be where fiberglass planters. So let's see.

Right. So let's say that sentience is a no go. What does that look like with that transition from your property to theirs in that space? I

think we would try to we would try to, I guess that wasn't green, because right now it's just barren. So-

Like on their property?

Well, if we could maybe along the path, maybe pull that paper back a little bit and plant the entire length of the park. That way there's at least a continuous Okay.

And then on the other side, it would just be

concrete.

Right. Okay. So I mean, that's if they don't go for it, that is a huge impact on that. And then also as far as like the public art, I feel like that's not very public when it's like in between two garage spaces down an alley. you know, if we want to create something that is a public benefit for all to see, I think that needs to be out more in the forefront of the building, the pedestrian experience, not just kind of tucked away in a pocket park. I know we haven't talked a ton about the overall building so far. I think, you know, when we talk about, and when I've heard the comments from everybody about just kind of a box, I mean, let's be real, that's what it is, right? I'm wondering, you know, what you did on like the second floor with that little, you know, patio when you have like some wood elements, it seems like we're throwing in there, like on the ceiling, if that is something that you can incorporate somewhere else on the other facades of the, you know, higher up floors, just to, you know, add some interest when you're kind of looking at all these facades are just so blank. And I know you get some reflection of the sky and stuff, but there's, that's it,

right? They're pretty flat. I know you have your corners, but like Yeah, it's just, there's nothing really there.

There just needs to be a little bit more interest.

I mean, this comes back to construct, like, it's not going to be like a twisting tower or a multifaceted, it's just not. So if that's what it needs to be, you know, I don't know what to say. Like, it's a box with, it's a rectangle with like Again, it could just be a big glass box. But we've placed recessed balconies. We've been thoughtful about the actual glazing detail that's being applied to the box. But I'd love to see in your minds what good architecture is.

Anything even at the top of it to anchor it, I think, would help. Just something to differentiate the 22 floors of some kind. It's just like, I think you've done a smart job the first two floors with adding the architectural details and signaling it from an architecture standpoint of what is what. I just think the remaining floors there needs to be

something. If we cut to the chase, we're not asking you to make a spiral building or something you would find in Shanghai maybe. often, but there's a way to take a glass building and like you talk about making breaks in it and you punch a hole here and there and you've got these recessed balconies, which are nice. And you're trying to put on a nice skin to the building. I hear you and it does, but that's all we got in Clayton basically. And we're really trying to push the envelope a bit not to start from scratch and knock it down, okay? But to use a little imagination and try, if I walk past the building, I would like to say, God, Sterling's building, that's, That's really something. Or I could walk and feel like I'm not walking along a dam a little bit, that there's more breaks or something a little more interesting to the building. I'm not the architect. I'll put Ellen on the spot. But there's gotta be a way. And we've sent everybody back to come up with some changes, not to tear down the building, but improve it somewhat. So everybody is proud to see it in Clayton. And I agree with one thing. I mean, the million dollar issue is I want to see pedestrians on the street and for that you need a lot of like mini destinations in Clayton. It could be a little park, it could be a restaurant, whatever. But we want you to add to the solution, though. Be one piece of the solution and not just be a building and say, well, it's the other, it's the community's problem. We want you to be part of the community and solve the problem with us. It's very admirable what you've done. You know, at the end of the day, we have a chart which you guys prepared. You know what I'm talking about? The 30 points and There's gotta be 10 point. And maybe at this point, it would behoove us to go through it. The bottom line is you've got to get 30 points to make it. And the city staff only gave you 28. You were short. That doesn't mean we can't push it up or whatever, but we could push it down too. And I don't want to take a vote until we think you guys have something that's gonna make sure you have 30. I hate to have it voted down if we could avoid that, if we think it's worth it to go back and try to look at your project one more time, but maybe not, we have to see. So you guys wrote comments to the project. You see that? Is it 20 points and then 10 points? How did that go?

There's a 10-point minimum as a PUD, and then five points per modification that's been requested. That's got a total of 30 points is the goal that they're trying to reach here.

And you guys have listed a potential of 44 points, and the city came back with 28. And just to go through it somewhat quickly, like the very top, you've got permeable paver system at Pocket Park area east of Garage. They gave you, you asked for one and they gave you one. And I'm not sure there's much discussion on that one. And then the next one, a green roof system on top of tower. Let's

go back to the other page. Okay.

Here it is. Thank you. constructing buildings, exhibiting architectural distinction and significance that would make the development unique. It's a possibility of five points in the city recommended three. Is that what I have there? Okay. And this is a, I'll let you take it over. You know, what, to get points, what makes your building, this is something we've been talking about a lot, architectural distinction.

I think in the original application where we elicited 44 points that we had, we gave explanation as to what we thought qualified for those points. And I don't think in a majority of those cases we took the maximum points available, if you would. For each of those items, we actually were being conservative and not wanting to appear as if we had a perfect project, which we don't, right? But we took less than that and still came up with well over 30. Well, on this one,

if I might... Go ahead. Your first name again? Jerry. Jerry. Jerry, you requested five points, which is the max of that one. Right. And... I don't want to keep rehashing this, but from my point of view, I would be pushed just to give the three. Do you have any

other comments on that one? We've kind of beaten that horse a little bit.

Yeah. I right now would give it

zero to one. I would do it too.

I would do one or two

probably. I would do no more than two. The next one is projects which provide or enhance public open spaces, public parks, and public park or trail access. You asked for five and the staff recommended four on that one.

Perhaps I could suggest that, I mean, there's a lot of points there to go through all of them. If the review board would provide us a response to your calculation of what those would be, give us something to react to and we can come back to it and address it that way.

The only way we're going to do it is right now. Okay. You know, it may take a little time, but to give you a feel and we know specifically. Yeah.

There's one particular area that maybe we can go to I am just because it was a when we first made our first application, there was a requirement of 25 points or not a requirement, but a public. benefit that we thought level, it was 25 and then it went to 30. And that was against back and forth sort of with staff. The additional jump from 25 to 30 related to the use of the public parking spaces. So not being underground per what the ordinance desires or spells out as a preferred public parking being underground. I hate to keep, You know bantering about the cost of these projects, but when you go underground with parking it's very, very expensive and so part of the things that Phil and others have talked about terms of how we dialed this thing in over the last year to make it. Viable financially viable project was to redesign the project or the garage so that we did not go underneath the building underneath the bank space. and incur the cost of that. And there was other things related to that too. We were able to make some modifications and changes that were really beneficial to making the financial viability of the project happen there. But by doing so, we eliminated having the public parking spaces underground. And that caused us to be asking for in the PUD another variance, if you will, added to the requirement then from going from 25 points to 30 points.

Jerry, I hear you. And I'm always very aware of making something financially feasible. We think the

parking, the public parking still works. And so therefore it does align with the ordinance and the desire of the master plan because it's there we do have public space public parking open to the public after hours from when the banks you know and on the weekends when the bank employees are not there so in our view we comply with that I hear

you chair but there's enough categories right that you could easily get 30 even if the parking isn't

looking for two I guess right we need two more

Well, I don't know. Let me say this.

Can I just ask, Bob? For the public parking, just because I know the Board of Aldermen will talk a lot about public parking. The public parking that you're talking about that's after hours, will that be free or will you have an arm so it'll

be... There's only a gate in the garage when you enter and you're getting into the area that is reserved for the residents.

But during the day... six spaces provided, anytime 23 spaces provided. So during the day, it'll be primarily for bank customers and employees, right? Or

anybody from the public. Okay. It'll be visitors to the retail.

Okay, so anything. Which, I mean, I think that's a, you know, definitely a huge benefit, which is, you know, I mean, most places have an arm where it's paid. Right, right.

Can I just ask you this, Chair? How do people know there's public parking there?

Signage. We'll do adequate signage for it. All right.

And so the next one with the open space provided and available, and you talk about stormwater management. And you requested five and the staff gave you four.

So in our conversations through our civil engineer stock and associates and I know the committee's a very familiar with George and his group and we use them exclusively. PB, Harmon Zuckerman, In their discussions with MSD we are putting in a large stormwater detention vault in the building that actually added to the cost of the project, but that was a requirement from MSD. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, Relatedly. The where the pocket park is located underneath that area, there is a. pipe for mst and that's why we cannot build over that structure there so. As Tom said, we could leave it as it is when we're finished with the building or we can try and beautify it and do something on it but that's that's the mst. As we look at that and what their requirements were and we had to put in the cost of this detention box, if you will, in the basement of the building. That to us spoke to you know accommodating that

requirement 100%.

So with regard to this one projects which provider enhance public open space public parks and public park or trail access. And we're talking about the alley and your stormwater management. Any comment on that? Anybody? With regard to four points. I

mean, I would give them, you know, with the open space, like, I mean, if we're talking about projects which provide or enhance public open space, I mean, I didn't really talk too much or ask very many questions, but the The pocket park, I think is a great addition, especially if you can get Centene on board, which I think is what, you know, that's just because it's such a upward, you know, I mean, I think if you can really enlarge that space and make it a great area. I mean, I like what Helen said, having access to, you know, Forsyth, although not necessarily Forsyth, but again, just having that alley access, I think is great benefit, especially with the lights and, you know, places to sit. I mean, would certainly give you five points for that. you know, because I think it's something interesting and unique that Clayton doesn't have right now. And I think it would be a great asset. But I think until we kind of are clear on what, you know, maybe just so that we understand better as to whether or not the space would be wide open, you know, that wind strip wouldn't be like mulch or concrete because Centene won't partner with you. I don't, you know, so.

I think the takeaway is that there's favorability for the pocket park and there's need for more description and more programming of that. And, you know, it's the same response we had from 17. It's like, absolutely. We like it. It's a good idea. However, what does it look like? You know? So I, I think the pictures are

great that you guys have provided. I think that gives a pretty clear idea. I think it can

be enhanced, though. I think we can come back with a better sort of description of that to some of your points, Bob.

Having like a mural on your wall. Right. I mean, I think, again, I think people on the Board of Aldermen would eat that up. So, I mean, we just did a mural down on DeMunn. I think having a mural along that wall would be wonderful. I mean, that would, you know, brighten things up, you know, because you're not getting sun all the time. One thought

we had, but... You don't want to really talk about it too much because you can't guarantee and everything, but across the street, the hotel, you know, it'll be an inviting sort of as you come out in and out of that driveway there, you know, you're checking in. What's that? You know, we can activate it. We can have things going on there. You come out after checking in this dinner, you're looking for a place to go for cocktail or whatever. And, you know, there's activation across the street.

So

I think that's part of our thinking on it.

And the other thing I was going to ask about parking was, you know, where you might also be able to get more points which I don't know. But if you had charging stations that would be available in the public area and not just in the residential area. And I just feel like if somebody can come in and they're a bank customer or something. I mean, it's just an idea. I don't know if you could get more.

We do have what's minimally required, I think, and then some in the residential part of it, not in the public area there. Just an idea. Sure. I

don't know if there would be a,

it would be available for. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I agree with Bridget. When I was doing my homework, I knew nothing about the pocket part because it was mentioned, but there was no description. What is it? What are you thinking of doing? So I basically downgraded from what the staff gave you from a four to a three, but if you come back, I think you could get a five.

Great, thank you. We know that it has to be, there's got to be more description of what it is, the width, how does it feel when you're in there? I

agree with Helen. I was just going to say that And knowing if Centene is going to be part of it, because I think that will really change that space and really make it something where people want to go. Otherwise, it might just seem a little odd to have half of it done and not. So I think that's a key factor to get

five. Sure. I appreciate that. And we'll endeavor to try and do that so we can get five. One of the things that I'll add to what Phil said earlier, you know, one project that we look at the pocket park as beneficial to what we're trying to do too. But I think there's another way to look at it too, I would submit and that is to consider that it's an initiative that maybe inspires other developments as they go along to look at setback areas, to look at areas that are otherwise overlooked or not even thought about as far as doing something that's a little creative in activation and beautification and all that. An anecdotal example, not the Denver one, but is of a similar area along the river up in Chicago where it was a space there across the street from Sears Tower that had been empty for years and years and years. And the developer I worked for many years ago created a park there. There was no visibility to that from the street level because it was at Lower Wacker Drive. The only visibility came off of where the river was. but it became a hit and it inspired everybody else along the river to do things where when the boats and everything were going along there or people were walking along there, they could look across and they could see what was going on. So in a way that's part of our thinking too.

Does that make sense?

I

would give

it a three too because no matter how you dress up the alley or the green space, it's stuck between two garages. And it's never going to be one of these nice like Denver's alleys. So the next one. So

can I add one thing? I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Not sure. Was it you, Tammy, that mentioned it or Helen? We have been in anticipation that there'll be some receptivity to the pocket park. We have been, but we haven't finalized it yet. We're still working through with structural engineering and all of those kinds of things have to make to prove it out, prove the concept out. But we have been examining taking that staircase. I forget who mentioned it. You did? Yeah. Good idea. And sliding it and moving it back or reconfiguring it somehow such that that area where the staircase is, which is a hard corner right now. We can't move the driveway into where the parking structure is or the parking structure will never work. But somehow taking and reconfiguring where that staircase is to pick up another 14 feet, which is about how wide that is. So add that to, and assuming Centene's piece in there. Now we're really talking about 35, 40 foot of a, maybe not all the way back because we lose parking spaces if we go back too far. It's something of a more funneled entrance right there that can make that even more. We're working on that.

Sorry, Bob. As we move to the next one, The planters along South Beemiston frontage, you see that one there. They requested one point. The staff gave at one point. Does anyone have a different number or any comment otherwise? Okay. So that's one. And then use of the silva cell system to control rainwater. They requested one. The city is at zero. And if you see the comments, they're already a standard part of the streetscape and therefore staff does not recommend a warning points. Does anyone have a problem with going down to zero? Okay. The next one is the LEED silver guidelines. The applicant requested one and the city's comments are that these are duplicate points to provide points for LEED silver. plus the design, I know elsewhere we're gonna see that for one point and they went to zero. Does anyone have a different opinion The next one is the efficient HVAC system. We've seen those very common in most projects now that come before us. You requested one, the city staff agreed with you, one. Does anyone here have a different opinion on number? No, okay. The next one is building siting. The project is situated on an urban site This deals with sustainable building design and building siting. The project is situated on an urban site with connections to public transportation and many services within walking distance. The orientation of the tower element will provide views in all directions. The heat island effect will be limited by use of concrete paving and new turf area. I

did have a question

about that.

The heat island effect, doesn't turf and concrete both contribute to that? I mean, turf absorbs heat like crazy even more so than concrete.

Turf contribute to the heat island? Right.

I mean, you're saying that it will help limit it

at the last sentence, but that's I'm assuming you're talking about like the pocket park, right? Right there. That was. Yeah, but it's still really teat in the turf. Okay. You

requested one. I'm having problems. This looks like almost a basket. We're throwing everything in it on this one. And it's connected to public transportation. It has a great view. And there's a heat island.

I don't know why that deserves a point. My recommendation would be zero on that one.

TAB, So the staff recommendation of meeting one point has to do with how that criteria is described within that pod points within our code right now, which I can pull up for you.

TAB, That has to

do with the standards for lead certification that's where that point came from within our city code, so I think that they described. things that

go

beyond, but the one point is satisfied with the location actually has to do with what the architect mentioned in the original planning of how the tower is located at a certain portion of the site in combination with some other elements for the urban form. So that's where staff came to the

one point. Described as something that points should be awarded, although it's not defined. And I think these guys just did the best they could under the circumstances. So I have no problem with one

point. Can we go back up to the silvacel item there? The staff analysis says that silvacels are already part of the standard streetscape. they are the standard silva cell detail does not allow stormwater into the system. What we're proposing here, there is an alternate detail that uses the same system, but periodically along the street, there are inlets that take the stormwater down and through the system. So that's what the explanation there that we're controlling stormwater. The standard detail does not control stormwater, but what we're proposing does control stormwater. It does actually clean the water before it goes into the storm drain.

Yeah, Public Works reviewed the details and it does not meet our current form. So they recommended not approving it for that reason. The city would be responsible for maintaining that moving forward and it would not meet our city standards. And also Public Works did not believe that it met MSD standards to have a connection to the storm sewer. And so for that reason, they recommended not allowing the non-standard version, which would result in just the standard version of the silva cell system. If you wanted a non-standard system, then you would also likely have to be responsible for the continued maintenance of streetscape.

And then the next one starts with onsite waste management. You're recycling materials for the project. You recommended one. The city staff agreed with you. Does anyone have a problem with the one? Okay, no. The next one overlaps the recycled building materials, must be another line item. They requested one, they gave them one. Anyone have a problem with one? No. And then there's EV charging stations and you guys have eight. I'm just kind of curious with the quickly growing electric vehicles, the hybrids especially, is eight enough for all those residents? you have more affluent residents and they'll probably have more electric cars.

I mean, it's a minimum, right? And most likely it's not enough, but it's also, we don't know what that demand is going to be. And they are very costly to put in place. Yeah. Very costly.

Will you hardwire the garage in order to enable more? Is that.

It's one of the things we're working through trying to figure out where exactly to do that. It's very possible.

I mean, Bridget made the great point. This building will be here for a long time. That's right. And one thing we do know, the hybrids and all electric cars are going to grow dramatically. And whatever you have today certainly won't be enough for tomorrow. And will you have the capability of adding more?

It's part of our engineering evaluation as we go through the process of how many do we need. It also is, you know, there's a charge for that and how you meter that for the tenants to use of it and everything. You got to figure out how that works. It also takes up a space. So anyway, there's a lot of variables.

I hear you, but I just know eight won't be enough.

Very common here. So we have driver electric cars since 2009.

We're hearing from a bicyclist here.

So we have, I think we have 12 electric chargers at our office that I had Tesla put there. And that charges over 3,000 cars per month when it first month it opened. The one in Brentwood has, I think 14 charges, charges over 14,000 a month. So it's not necessary to have a charge. spot for all of them. This could be a common one, or we can make it expandable, or we could have it set up so the individual wanted to have his own charging station as a resident could be expandable. Okay. I hear you. Yep. So that's, we have a, if you were to come to any of our, like our office, you'd see eight, nine cars there all the time. And it services thousands of cars.

Okay. Anyway, the city recommended, I mean, they asked for one, the city recommended one. Anyone have a problem with that? Okay. And then we go back to the permeable. I turned the page now on top of the page, the permeable paver system at pocket park, which is very attractive. I think the city, they asked for the city concurred. Does anyone have a problem with the city's recommendation? The green roof system, we see that a lot in our projects. The developer asked for one and the city agreed they would have a problem with

one. This is the NGBS certification.

Can somebody give me a 30-second summary of that? What is that? The NC NGBS? Yeah. It's

the green globe, right? Green. Are you doing green building green globes? It's a certification similar to lead, which is why we didn't recommend a point for the lead certification plus this other one that they're doing. So, right. So they're very similar characteristics and requirements in order to qualify. And they are also going for silver level level, excuse me.

So, um, And the next one refers to public parking, including EV charging will be provided on the lower level. Let's see what the include. This is where Jerry, you were talking about this. I think it was you inclusion of a below grade public parking facility located underneath the proposed development.

There's no below grade parking.

I now understand what you're talking about because you can have as much as 10 points for that. And You asked for one and they gave you zero because there is not.

Right. Okay. Ten points would be great, but it's tens of millions of dollars to go underground.

But it brings to the forefront why you brought that up. Okay. Next one is inclusion of parking spaces specifically available and designated for public parking. And you talk about the lower level of the garage will include parking for the bank office and the public. Six spaces provided any time, provided any time, 23 spaces provided after five o'clock. So during a day, you only have six spaces available. And at night, you open it up. Do I understand that right? That's correct. Okay. And you asked for five and the city... staff recommended

three,

six spaces just isn't a whole lot to me. I could see them doing three. I could go down to, I'll just say two for me on that one. Any comments?

I put down two also.

Same.

I would tend to stay at three and even go up to four. Cause I think in the evenings, I mean, we don't, I mean, I think in the evening, cause if they're willing to let people come in and not, and there's not an arm and it's easy public parking after 5 PM and on the weekends, I mean, that's pretty advantageous for the area. That's a valid point. Okay.

The next one is the deals with a significant form of public art in any

media. And Jerry, you talk about the project will incorporate a street level. Is this the one that's gonna be in the park?

And we put some examples in the landscape plan to talk about the pocket park. It's clearly not fully developed whether we put a piece in there or whether we locate it in the center as the example showed or whether we put multiple pieces in there, whether we tie it in somehow to the Clayton Art Fair as a designated area or something like that. That's part of the programming that we need to continue to develop and work with the Clayton Art Council and others. It could be that there's a, somebody mentioned, you know, a component of it that's a mural on the garage or on centene garage, you know, different things like that. So I agree. It's a little speculative to know what you're exactly going to do

at

this point. Our intent in requesting five points is that we'll do it in the way

that's good. Yeah, I believe you're well intended. And that's why I always recommend three at this point in time that I know you're going to do something. And I agree with the city on three. Comments by

you guys? Three?

Ellen? I say three, but I guess it

just all determines what that pocket park really becomes because if it's not going to come to really much, then putting that public piece of art there, kind of a moot point. So I

guess two or three.

Was there ever any thought to putting any public art at the corner, like not in the public park but somewhere outside the building, like under that overhang that you recess a little bit?

Under the overhang presently is a logo on the pavement for Sterling, similar to what they have there in the current plaza. So retaining that. At this point, there wasn't any consideration of doing that. But I think that's something that, you know, in conjunction with working with the art council and things like that, and some consultants on it, it's a possibility. To

answer your question, we haven't done it yet. I mean, yeah, we can leave it as is. All right, three. And

the next one is other public benefits. In this one, they talk about the reduction of curb cuts, which you did discuss in your presentation very well. We

actually eliminated two. One on the Baymiston side there and one on Carana Light as well. and also separating the, and I think staff acknowledged this, separating the service traffic, delivery trucks, things like that. And the pedestrian pathways as well as the resident vehicle traffic.

And he also talked about the facade of the garage blending in with the building. Right. And the staff, recommended three.

I'll go along with

that. And then the next one is the addition of 254 residential, we're talking about other public benefits here. And this is they cite addition of 254, residential units to central business district I think I think we've talked about this a bit, you know what it brings to make what it brings to the downtown

right

and.

The city staff. Balances

the idea that you're increasing the residential density. with the long plank walls, I guess where the garage is. Yes, it would remove curb cuts and pedestrian interruptions. And the staff recommended too. I think the point there is bringing people to live in Clayton downtown in large numbers like you propose is great. It's good. But for a public benefit, just bringing in the residents, we'd like to see something more to warrant a five. Bring the people and let's see some public benefit for them as well. And so the city recommended two, and I think I'm going to go along with that. Anyone else have a number you want to give?

I think the only thing, if I may, that I would add for consideration to that is that this project is intended by design, while it's got to be cost effective and all that, but to attract It's market rate apartments. So it's generally higher income residents. We anticipated to be like 212 was when it came on the market, leading the demographic, leading the economic buying power of the residents that come to the city, right? And the finishes that we're doing in the units, the amenities deck, all of that speaks to those things, the electric car charging, the pocket park, et cetera. And so- I don't, we don't consider the population that's gonna occupy there as being detrimental, quite the opposite to, and maybe we're not gonna supply all of the retail components to satisfy the demands of that population. But that buying power that comes along with that because we are creating a very attractive, a very high end upper scale product is gonna benefit all the retail uses in town. Thank you for letting me make that point.

And then you have incorporation of a public dog run with secure fencing, artificial turf and amenities. Now to me, i'd give you a two for that you asked for two i gave you two and the city recommends one because one thing we do not have are places in the heart of clayton downtown walk your dog very often even though it's only eight feet wide

we come back with more a description of what that pocket park is all about um and we evaluate and we have more conversations with Centene, evaluate what we can do with the staircase and presence off of the street there in that particular area. We'll ask for five. No, I'm kidding. Put

parking underneath there. Maybe you can get it. I don't know. I don't think that will happen at all. Anyway, that's just me. Anyone else have a comment? One? The city recommended one?

Yeah, I would say when you come back with the pocket park developed, Because right now, we're going on hearsay and some pictures. We don't even have copies of that to say, hey, you promised this. This is what you showed us. We don't have that. So I think when we get something more concrete, something that we can look at in our hands, do our homework, then more than one

More than one, great.

Right, you might get the two that you've asked for and if you ask for five, that could happen too.

We're motivated to do that clearly. We wanna do this project. I'm gonna bring this benefit, all these benefits and everything to the city. We wanna add to already stunning skyline. And this is a Maine in Maine. sort of location, maybe not exactly Maine and Maine, but very close to Maine and Maine. Very close to here. It's centric as far as we look at it. It's walking distance to the metro station, right? So it does have a transit ability there too. It's not as if it's on the other side of Maryland, right? I can... suggest that we'll come back with more detail about the pocket park and what we can do relative to that street presence. The facade on the entire side of the building and everything I heard you changing that, that's an expensive proposition that we will look at, but I don't know that we'll make significant changes to the way we've designed the building think we've taken that into consideration for reasons tom and everybody else talked about already right i mean um we'd love to do this project too so

i would love for you to do the project too

yeah i'm sure

and and uh i'm not asking to put a square in a circle but i'm speaking for me now um i would just like to see a little more flavor or something to dress it up a little bit uh I'm not planning to put all brick or something on it or anything like that, but I think just bringing, I think one of the bottom lines is just bringing all the people into Clayton is a start, but it's not the end. We're looking to see how it fits into the community of downtown and how it adds to the community of downtown Clayton. With that,

i'm sorry can i just ask one more question um just it sounded like you guys did have a video i just think it's helpful to have that 3d experience that's not just like a flat picture so maybe when you yeah we can when you guys come back we could see it would be great you know that i feel like would be really helpful we've

done some animations would you like us to see like i've been to arbs in chicago other cities kansas city and like we haven't gotten any feedback we just have gotten we don't We don't like the building. So I have a couple of things I'd like to look at with you all and just say, we did test these other things. Go for it. Okay. I don't

know how to pull that up, but I plugged my jump drive back in over here. I'm hitting the space bar. Oh, there we go. It came up. the one question is

on the southern facade like the garage um i mean we could clad it in metal like we could clad in precast to us a thoughtful glass pattern that's timeless is like much better than either one of those options so is it brick i mean what i'm just throwing things out there we don't have to like talk about it. So that's, as the designer, that's got to go back and come back to you all and make a major investment to make all these changes and then say, well, I don't like that either. That's why we need to get a little more response. So one thing we looked at on the Southern facade was, yeah, we could clad it metal or perforation metal. And to me, like, I don't think you all would like that. The other thing we talked about was if there was a green strip along the base. Yes, there's no retail there. And there are existing curb cut planters that do come out beyond the property line. but that would be something that the city would have to buy into. So if I go to the bird's eye view, I've kind of identified here that yellow marker, all these planters come out beyond their property line at that blue edge. So if the city would allow us to do that, that's something that could help soften up that edge. So again, if I flip from what we had previously to another proposal was, again, the walkway is a little narrower, but you have a strip of landscape planter. So that's one potential solution. And again, I just want to get your feedback because We have the difficult task of going back and coming back and hoping that you'd like it too.

Would the planters be on the

sidewalk? They would project beyond our property line, yes. But there's precedent for it already along that street where there are already planters beyond the property line. So we would just be taking that curb cut that exists and pulling it up. But again, that's something we abandoned because we thought you wouldn't appreciate it. So that's one look. I'm going to flip through a couple of different other options real quick. So this is that current condition where we know you all want retail there. And if you saw the plan, there's basically some parking spaces beyond that in a drive lane. There's no depth for retail. And we thought, well-

Can't you make depth for retail? You just carve out a box. So that's what I don't-

Then you add a whole level of parking structure that's $3 million. And it's just like, there's major impact. So one thing we did talk about was like, rather than putting retail there, could you create like a little- recess that had a landscape strip that pulled up into like kind of this organic bench. And then we could use maybe the wall surface with, that could be our art installation. So again, it's not activated with retail, it's activated by an art installation. So you're covered, you could sit there and have a cup of coffee from the cafe that we're providing along Bemiston and come down and sit here. And at night it would activate the street. It would be illuminated with bright colors, illuminating the white brick. but we abandoned this because we thought the pocket park would be more attractive. So if you, if no one is buying- Why is

it in lieu of the pocket park?

Well, potentially, yes. I mean, the reality is that pocket park has a price tag on it, just like this would. And it's kind of like, well, what does the city, and again, this is where we want your feedback, like, would we rather have glass coming down or this recess with uh that becomes our art piece we can't have the art pieces everywhere

i don't want to lose the pocket park that's i'm just speaking for myself so we

viewed this as a pocket park it ends up being about a 16 foot recess into the building that's covered and again it could have like an organic bench that comes up that's cut out of laser you know laser cut out of aluminum and that becomes part of that art sculpture and then the linear strips in the brick are like these lights that could change color. So again, that becomes our art piece. It's not just a sculpture on the corner of a property line.

I guess I'm having trouble seeing that because I just feel like to me it just looks like green underneath a roof. I don't feel like you can sit under there at all. I just

really

do it.

What we were showing was that this came up and turned into a bench and then there could be planters. And then these linear elements are like color changing lights. So again, it comes to the art installation

I mean, I think that's definitely better than what is proposed today. I mean, proposed

is glass, right?

Correct. But I don't think in lieu of the pocket park that this would be, this would not be more of a public benefit to me than the pocket park. I think this is better looking than- Giving

feedback is great because at this point it's just, I don't like the building. And then, like I said, I've been to multiple ARBs all over the Midwest. So I need something more than that to go back.

I mean, we have provided you feedback. I mean, I, we have said that this is- Most of it's been on the

pocket park. I just, and again, we want to find- That's been the biggest,

I feel like, public benefit. So I feel like we have provided you feed back. I mean quite honestly, the world news building looked a lot like this and when we provided feedback they did some architectural details that were different that was the feedback that was right that's what we're talking to you about

and i was the one making those adjustments

well so i mean so i mean and

again here's another example like to say well if it's not you're not saying make it a brick building is it just adding detail like here like pulling the frame out i'm just clipping stuff together while we're talking to the

So that's what we had

previously. And then we said, well, maybe that brow gets...

Where you went to the indentation. Oh, this guy? Yeah. Look, go back. I'm just zooming in so you can see. Go back one, just one. There's the wall with the glass. Where's the wall of the glass? It was right before it. Now you see that. Imagine me walking by that and walking by this. This is a much more breathable...

space. This is great feedback. That's why I was trying to clip a bunch of stuff

together. This to me makes the sidewalk area and the public area, you give it a better benefit. This is a public benefit. For me, I can't speak for them, you've probably earned yourself some more points just by having that.

10 points? Probably

20.

And I don't want to come off as like, I want to find the solution while we're all here, if you don't mind looking at some of these pieces. Because, yeah, we want to go back and see if we can make adjustments. But I don't want

sacrifice the alley. And I'm not the greatest fan of the alley, but it's at least something, you know?

I was trying to think what else. So this was another example is like, we show that metal frame, like just by pulling it out and giving it more projection and we could test colors and do other, and maybe it could be that this second floor is, is masonry or something like, is that, we just don't want this much glass. Is that kind of the.

I think something I like this. I mean, this is a change for sure, but I think on the upper 22 floors, there needs to be something else. That's just not so the same.

Yeah.

You know, if you want to add like this browse, you know what I mean? Just somewhere, whatever architectural detail you come up with, but there just needs to be something else added for those other 22 floors. I think that's when we're getting like that box feel. Yeah,

and that's okay. I think what it will come at is, we'll probably lose some balconies and add maybe some architectural detailing in to offset. Does that make sense? So like we started with just like, Hey, we could make this beautiful clean box that has equally proportioned recesses throughout that Western facade. And that was enough. And if you're saying it's not, that's great feedback and we can take that and adjust. I think what else I was putting

together. With the glass and it's so vertical coming up to the sidewalk, And I know you say you're breaking it up, and you do break it up, which is key always. But it's still basically an office building to me. But you did break it up a lot. You do have balconies. I'll give you all the credit. And they are.

Recess balconies with a tower like this, they're very expensive moves. So we can certainly eliminate them and do something else and check what else we can

study. I mean, I like the balconies. I mean, people appreciate balconies who live in those buildings. PB, Lupita D Montoya- Have you ever and again I don't understand the expense, of course, but you know you have the recess second floor space for the sterling bank employees have you ever thought about like. PB, Lupita Д Montoya- recessing another on the other side that would be actually something public like something public for the region, you know, like if you have a retail space and. If it's a cafe, then people can go upstairs and sit upstairs in a recessed balcony. I don't know, something to add to the- The

reality is like on this strip, because of the parking structure and the parking demand for a building like this, I wish, I don't have a plan pulled up, but this thing's packed full of, well, one, Sterling, we have to have the retail location And then to the core for the building, the lobby, we do have 1,800 square feet of retail. It's not just the Sterling Bank retail. We have another retail down plan down here. And then everything else is like gas meters and everything you need to have for the building. And there's nowhere else to put it other than the alley side, that northwestern corner. So it is just a program piece of, there's no room to even, we struggled to fit in that 1,800 square foot retailer on that at the sacrifice at residential amenities. So we did, we didn't just- Thinking like people, you bring

in people from outside to go to the cafe, sit upstairs, I mean-

And we did have... Sorry, I'm flipping between presentations now. I mean, when we planned those entries, we recessed them so they're covered and protected from the rain on the residential and the retail.

I mean, I think you've done a good job of expressing your needs. The things that you are limited by and not just expense, but just structurally. Here, I'll pull this up. And this may be

the last. If it'll play, we'll see. So this is a little more than

just stills, but... But again, I looked at maybe that brow gets extruded a little bit more. Maybe there's more detail. Maybe there's different material and we can definitely investigate that. But again, at the pedestrian level with the 15 foot floor to floor, that's where we started looking at adding in these masonry elements, punched openings so there was a different texture at that pedestrian base. And again, same thing with this commercial second level piece. We could extend that brow. There's more shadow, more depth to the building. as you're working your way over. Like I said, these little golden thing, they're just icons to represent that it could be some linear art installation. So there was, if it wasn't at the pocket park, it was maybe along Bemison. We added architectural detail interest recesses, there's soffits with lighting. So it's not just a glass building, especially

at the pedestrian level. Yeah. Sorry, I'm trying to figure out how to drive this

thing. And then again, at the Sterling, we have other additional materials. We embossed our emblem and have a higher upgrade flat work finish there at the corner.

Let's see.

I can pull up Google Earth. So this is where we work around the corner. Again, if we were allowed to install that green space, like it just kind of softens up the base, but you know, we're being thoughtful about that could just be a big solid wall of brick and we're adding detailing and reveal and shadow line. As you look up as the pedestrian, you see this second story space with another material transition, a recess at the corner. Again, I know we've seen this in some of the stills. I'm just kind of reiterating as we talk about the animation. And then this is potentially that location where you could have that little recessed art installation potentially. So it's not a retail spot, but it could be pretty awesome at night and during the day, just a spot to like at least get covered if it's raining as you work your way down mid block. Um, and it could be a signature piece really for that Southern facade. Um, so as we turn the corner, we have a masonry element, vertical piece, kind of a termination move at the end of the Southeastern corner,

you know, add material and

detail to that parking entry point. And then as you work your up again, uh, I'd have to test and see how wide this, I can't measure it off this model, but this is the point where this is all city standards. There's also an accepted standard where this slides over and the trees move out and you could add a planter here and maintain your walkway if that's something you're not opposed to. Does that make sense? Like basically there's two standards. There's one where there's an 18 or two 24 inch brick strip, or this planter gets shoved right up against the curb and you could add planter along the building. we didn't think you guys would want to do that.

Well, the truth of the matter is I'm with Helen. I want as much width in the sidewalks as possible.

And all that would do, and I agree with you, like to me, these street trees and this same detail that I'm showing framed, this edge could slide right over to here. The sidewalk could get wider. And then you'd take basically that two foot or 30 inch strip and make it a planter over here. But again, the city would have to be okay with that. So One over here on the right could be that recess that we talked about with the illuminated art. We showed it as glass rather than masonry, because again, you're reflecting, you're seeing context of the surrounding buildings. just because it's hard to program a retail location. Like

that view that you just showed, I mean, it was like solid glass, you know? And if you had that recess there, it would be a much more attractive-

I was trying to find that animation. There was one at some point.

You know, that view was all glass, but if- I agree

with Bridget, you know, along Carondelet where you punch open the wall for Sterling and you have that balcony, it really adds- a human feel, it adds, it just makes it more attractive. I like that. I mean, that was

when we went through those diagrams earlier on, like we do have a lot going on along in this facade. And I think that could be the weak point. And again, it'd be great to have a brew pub there, but it'd be a 900 square foot brew pub, you know? So there'd be room for some kegs in there and a couple of tables. I mean, that's the reality. Like I'd love to have that there too. We, I just know what goes into the guts of the building and, uh, there's nowhere to go

with it. So trying to think what else that's, uh,

Tom, do you have the examples of the glazing? I know one of the staff comments was asking if this was very mirrored like it appears in the renderings and you guys provided some additional samples for what your AB pattern would be there. And I think it might be helpful for them for you to go through that.

So there was additional detail requested

for that garage screen. Let me flip, sorry, I'm used to driving a different type of software

here.

So currently this is a little vignette of how that graph, glass would work. So there'd be four surfaces, right? The one, two, the inside face three and four, all the third faces would have this gray translucent. It's not a film. It's a, it's a baked on ceramic on the third surface. So it's protected. You couldn't go scratch from the garage side. All the surfaces would have that so that again, you can't go up to that glass and see a car bumper. It's basically a diffused glass that allows light through. You can kind of see how You can see through and see, unless a car was parked immediately against the surface, you know, you pull it a foot away, you can't. So the idea being when you're on the garage side, that face is glowing. So all the glass would have that on the third surface. Everywhere else would have this frit. Or every other panel is part of this. So this was kind of a vignette of that. That's

what you're asking, Anna. But like I said, the other options are

big precast concrete bands that are painted or which is adjacent just to the east of us or metal, some metal structure. And to us, like the glass felt better and honestly is more expensive than either one of the solutions I just listed. So

we thought we were doing something nice there. in those architectural

drawings, it calls out a vinyl screen on the garage. So at the first concept ARB, when we talked about this building, um, one, one comment that came out of that was it looked like two buildings. Cause we had a building that had punched openings and glass. Um, so we went with all glass cause that was some of the feedback we got was we wanted one unified building. Um, uh, the other thing was that they wanted to see garage cladding along the alley. So, um, What we looked at there are these panels, and we provided these views at the request of the city planning group. It was basically a shot from here to see what you would see. So this is standing just outside our building looking south. So the reality is you view these panels from 250, 300 feet away, and you just see the tops of them unless you're walking down the alley, right? And that's what these two views we provided were about was to say, This is further back. So the further back, you get a glimpse. So this may be from 400 feet away. So what we had talked about using was there's these vinyl mesh materials that would be then applied to a frame. Here's an example of it. This is right outside of $100 million Olin School of Business over at Wash U on their garage cladding. So Jamie Kolker, who is the campus architect that was responsible for all the East End transformation, actually we worked on this together. So it does, it is a vinyl fabric, but it's not like, um, I don't know. It's a nice product. So to us to request garage screening on an alley side, we wanted to come up with something that was thoughtful, but also not glass, right? Like, cause at some point a building could be built where, where Napoli occurs and you know, we've, we've clad a garage in glass, you know? So that was our rationale. It's like, we're doing something nice and thoughtful. Um, that may be covered up someday. And there's just some details

of

how it would occur.

Sorry guys,

not familiar with Adobe. So we basically just pulled in the pattern and openness is all based on the garage breathability. So that was part of it was just rather than just having an open garage, we provided

a feature across the back of it. Okay. Anything else?

I think that's it. Like I said, I just want to get some additional feedback because as one of the team members, it's got to go back and come back here with you all. And I want to make sure I'm coming back with something that's closer. I think it was very helpful.

Very helpful. I appreciate it. With that, I think you guys... would be coming back another day, I assume, right? We're not gonna vote on anything tonight. So we will table all the applications we have gone through today.

You should probably just ask if there's any public comment before we go that far.

Okay, is there any public comment?

It's a public hearing, so I wanted you to ask.

They're online too. I don't know if that's... Is there anyone online?

Nobody online is asking.

So there's no one for public comments at this time. And so we will table the applications to a date uncertain when you

come back to us. Is that right? Okay.

Yeah, you'll make a motion to that effect. Yeah.

We'll make a motion to table the hearings. So we'll leave the public hearing open. Is there a motion

to?

I move to table.

Quick question. Do we know the scorecard or would you get that in a follow-up report? I know I was doing a bunch of clip art. I could add it up

for you, but it's going to be below what the city had recommended. It wouldn't take me long, but I think it was more important to hear the comments.

But there'll be some follow-up. So we know like where we have to adjust, right?

I move to table.

Second. Can you continue it to a date certain? Is that the following meeting?

To a date uncertain. Second.

Ayes.

Aye.

Ayes. So approved. Thank you very much. I know we're here for a while, but you got a lot invested.

That's fine. Okay. Thank

you. Appreciate it. The last

item on the agenda was just a discussion session. There's nobody here from the public, so if you guys would like to, we can spend time on that or we can continue that on. Is this on marijuana? Yes.

Is there a sample table?

No.

I mean, this will be on the agenda as an official public hearing and there's nobody here to participate in a discussion for public comment. So I don't know that there's really a need to have a discussion session at this point.

And I think the changes are just going

to put us in line with state law. Pretty much. That's what we would be going over. So we can go over those in more detail at the public hearing if you're comfortable with that.

Yes.

Yes.

Sounds good.

Is that everything? Well, that was a short meeting.

Do we have a

motion to adjourn? I move to adjourn.

Second.

Aye's. So adjourned. Thank you, everyone.