January 18, 2023 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, both in person and virtually, and welcome to the Plan Commission ARB for January 17th. If you have any electronic gadgets, please silence them or turn them off. Brian?

Steve Lichtenfeld? Here. Carolyn Gatiss? Here. Bridget McAndrew?

Here.

Helen DiFate?

Helen DeFate?

Here.

Kami Waldman?

Here.

David Gipson? Here. And then Bob is here. He's virtual.

David Gibson? Here. And then Bob is here. He's virtual.

We have minutes from the previous meeting on December 19th. Are there any changes? No. Do we have a motion?

Motion to approve the minutes.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? We'll move on with the first item, which is a public hearing. on chapter 405, section 405.1910. And this is a public hearing and we will be able to take public comment when we're finished. So we'll open the hearing now.

Hey Steve, can you hear me? Do you know I'm here?

Yes, we know you're here. Okay. Can you hear us?

Yes.

Okay. We see you on the

list. Okay, so this is a text amendment that's going to

be going. Okay, so there's a recommendation that came out of the Clayton Community Equity Commission. They had various recommendations, so we've kind of addressed a few of them in the last few meetings for some text amendments. This one comes out of the a discussion related to duplex units and affordable housing, which is a very large topic that we will address in more detail through our comprehensive plan. But one item that was particular it was discussed in particular is our existing non conforming duplex and attached single family home dwelling units that we have located in Davis Place neighborhood. Right now those properties are zoned are to single family development, which just not allow duplex or Jessica Garner, Attached single family units and when I refer to those attached single family would be a shared wall between two units but they're technically located on separate parcels. Jessica Garner, As opposed to a duplex one that i'm referring to two different units that may be stacked one on top of the other or next to each other, the shared wall but they're looking at one parcel. So we have both conditions in the city currently. So as a non-conforming use, they're allowed to be maintained, but they're really limited as far as what you can do to enhance those structures or rebuild them if there was some sort of natural disaster or fire or other element. so looking to provide some protections to enhance the continued maintenance of those existing duplex or single family homes there is a recommendation to look at our non-conforming statutes in review of where these existing conditions are we found they're all located in r2 district and so instead of addressing changes within the larger non-conforming section of the code which can apply to all of the zoning districts, various different conditions that make them non-conforming. We decided to look specifically at the R2 regulations and provide some language that really meets the intent of the recommendation from the Equity Commission. What we've provided here, there's an existing section of the R2, 405.1910. that addresses nonconformance with setbacks and how those can be enhanced. And so we are taking that provision and adding uses, where specifically we'll call out duplexes or attached single family that are existing as of the date this was adopted. So that date will be inserted if this were to be adopted. That allows them to be repaired, remodeled, reconstructed, structurally altered, and expanded. So if one burned down, they could rebuild it. as long as they stay in compliance with the other provisions of the R2. So that would allow them to add an addition, maybe they want another bedroom, a screen porch, so on, as long as it meets the setbacks of R2 based on the size of that lot, this non-conforming use of duplex or attached single family can be maintained. It does not allow for the creation of new duplex units. This is only for those that are existing as of the date this is adopted. I'll open that for any questions.

I know you mentioned that it's primarily in Davis place. Do we have it in any other R2 area in the city?

So we did a run a brief analysis trying to find if there were any others. We didn't locate any, but this provision would be applicable to any R2 district. So we didn't go through an actual site by site analysis of every single R2 lot, but we did do a more kind of run through of the properties that we know of and looked more specifically and only located some in our two, but I could have missed one that was in other areas. We do have more duplexes and attached single family units, but other than in Davis Place, all of those ones that we located were in multifamily zoning districts where they're already in allowed use so they don't need the other protections and provisions that we're proposing here. Okay.

And the reason we do not include R1 in this amendment is because there are no duplexes in R1. Correct. Is that correct? Yes. I think it's going in the right direction, and I applaud that you took the general rather than specific locations to point it out.

Other questions?

Nothing.

No. No. David? No.

Bob?

So I agree with this. Nothing more to add.

OK, thank you. Any comments on this text amendment from the audience, either in person or virtual?

Well,

we do have a staff recommendation to approve the amendment to the Board of Aldermen.

I'll make a motion to approve the Board of Alderman.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed?

Thank you.

And the public hearing is closed.

We can move on to new business now, item 16341 Clayton Road. Is the applicant here? And if you will start with the staff report. Thank

you. So the subject property is located on Clayton Road between Skinker and DeMunn. It's on C2 General Commercials located in the Clayton Road Urban Design District and is developed with a two-story mixed use structure. The project consists of interior and exterior renovations, including the addition of an ad ramp and a second door to differentiate access between the commercial and residential spaces. commercial properties are common on clayton road and often take the form of formerly residential structures that these commercial conversions include the addition of new signage awnings parking and other commercial needs. The property has an existing porch comprised of concrete with a black metal railing and the new porch is proposed to be constructed of similar materials, but will be updated for accessibility. The additional door will be added adjacent to the existing door and match current materials. The UDD requirements that requires that concrete be clad COB, Dan Burke.: : materials that match the primary structure so staff recommends that the new concrete facades should be painted to match the primary structure that the walking surface components match the city standard merrimack sand and gravel mix. COB, Dan Burke:" The new ramp will encroach into the front yard setback, however, given that the increased excessive there is increased accessibility. COB, Dan Brooke:" and various front yard setbacks nearby staff is of the opinion that the encroachment further towards. the street is an appropriate use and will result in a minimal visual impact. The proposal exceeds the front yard coverage limit of 30%. However, there are limited options to construct a ramp and staff is of the opinion that the proposed design achieves the goals of coverage standards by maintaining the lawn area and limiting coverage to the maximum extent feasible. To conclude, staff is of the that the use of materials for the proposed alterations are compatible with the existing structure and surrounding area. Staff recommends approval with the following conditions. One, the exposed concrete elevations of the porch and ramp shall be painted or stained to match the primary structure. And two, the walkway stairs and ramps shall be the city's standard Meramex sand and gravel mix to match the public sidewalks.

Okay, thank you. The applicant, please identify yourself, name and address, and any comments you'd like to add.

Sure, I'm Chris Pike with Thomas Allen Group Architects. Our office is 23 North Gore Avenue in Webster Groves, Missouri, 63119. So this is a small building on Clayton Road. It used to be a residence or residential, I should say. And way back when it was changed into apartment on the first floor and offices on the second floor, but they never closed that off. So you entered one door and you could either be on the first floor in the offices or go up a staircase. So it was very odd separation. It wasn't truly separated. So we want to separate it with a wall, add another door, match the existing door, the existing transom, match the existing transom. And then the owners, it's a CPA. So it's four ladies that have a practice and they're moving into this space and they have several clients in wheelchairs. So that's why we're doing the ramp to accommodate that, so. It's pretty simple. Shuffling some interior walls, reshuffling some bathroom walls so that we can get a bigger ADA bathroom in the one section. So pretty straightforward. As far as the staff recommendations, we have no problem painting the concrete. And I probably should have had a landscape plan or something done. I didn't think about that, but we probably will do some landscaping as well.

Is the... Is the residential unit on the second floor to be occupied by one of the accountants?

At this time, I don't know. I do believe that one of the accountents might move there while they're having the home renovated. But other than that, I have no idea. I think they might just rent it out for profit.

And you were talking about the handicapped access. Are you putting in a wider front door? I couldn't tell for the ground floor.

So we are hoping to maintain the existing width of the door, but if we do need to go wider, we will. But what we'll do is we will just match the existing with the same metal six panel door that's on there. It's very residential looking and I kind of want to maintain that.

and everything else on the front facade remains

the same. Yeah. I do believe that there will be a phase two at some point, but right now this is all they want to do. So they want to get into the building as soon as possible because of clientele.

But we'd like to see the building occupied. Yeah. That's good. Any further comments?

Some of them for me just always happens. I was gonna ask about the landscape because it's going to disrupt some grading and changing.

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of plain as it is right now. That's just a flat plot of land or lawn, I should say. So we're adding this, you know, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It's a big concrete ramp, you know, but, but, you

know,

some low level landscaping, maybe some, you know,

Maybe some beds.

Yeah, yeah. These ramps take up a lot of space, unfortunately. But they're necessary.

Richard? Yeah, I mean, I was a little worried about the front yard coverage, but I think that's outweighed by the importance of having the accessibility ramp. So that's all I

have. Thank you.

I think you've done the best that you can considering the challenges of a ramp.

Yeah, it's a tight yard too. Yeah.

Limited with slope and everything.

The slope in the land, there's a walk out in the basement, but there's a spiral staircase from the basement up to the first floor. So it doesn't work that way. So I was kind of stuck.

No, I think it'll be fine.

Thank you.

Amy?

Yeah, I have nothing to add.

I'm glad that they're doing

it.

Bob, any comment?

Nothing to add.

David, no comments. I did have one other question. You're putting in new steps in front of the door.

Yeah.

And there will be a walkway coming out to the sidewalk.

Yes.

Will there be a second walkway coming from the base of the ramp?

So what we're gonna do is we're just going to have, after you wind back down, I guess if you were looking at it from the street, if you wind back down towards the church, then the sidewalk's gonna swing back over to the sidewalk that goes out to the street. So not two sidewalks going to the street, just one sidewalk going to the street. I say street, but the main sidewalk at the street. So we'll just tail off of that to try to minimize the amount of concrete.

and also it'll save some grass. I do hope

so.

Any comments from the audience or anyone virtual? No. You've already said you agree with the two staff recommendations. Yes. OK. And Carolyn, I believe you were indicating that maybe some landscaping should be added in.

Yeah, I think so.

Well. We can submit a landscape plan with the permit drawings to the city. Sure, direct to

staff.

Yeah.

OK. Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve the two staff recommendations and then add a third for you to submit a landscape plan to the staff for approval.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Thank you. Good luck with it. Yep. Have a good night, guys.

We'll move on to We'll move on to the second item in new business. And that is a conceptual review for 726 DeMonte Avenue. And before we get started, this is conceptual review and that's set up mainly for a discussion between the applicant and the staff. So with this, we do not have public comment tonight. However, there will be ample opportunities for the public to speak about it and question it in the future. The next item that would come would be the community conference that the applicant would hold, and it would be open for all the citizens to come see the project and comment on it. After that, assuming we keep going, they would be applying for a PUD, so we would have a public hearing. At that point, the public of course is invited to participate also. Following that, assuming we keep going, there will be a series of plan commission and ARB reviews. Of course, those are all open to public comment also. So with that, we will start out with the staff report and then we'll have the applicant come up.

So the site is located on Demun between North and South Rosebury. The site consists of two properties, zone C1, and both developed with three-story mixed use buildings and rear storage structures. The project consists of renovations and additions that will preserve most ground floor retail and create a 24 room boutique hotel on the upper floors. The changes will also include a hotel cafe, five parking spaces, and a rooftop patio. The materials for the additions will match the existing structure and visual improvements are proposed for the existing windows and doors, lighting and roof specifications are unknown at this time. The project is proposed as a planned unit development, public benefits and zoning variations pertaining to PUDs have not been specified at this time. Projects of this scale require a thorough staff review prior to public hearings. Should the applicant pursue the project, it'll be reviewed and subject to comment by various departments and contracted consultants. This meeting analysis only pertain to the conceptual review and any comments provided are not binding. But with that staff offers the following comments based on the conceptual review plans presented. The project will likely exceed height limitations for C1 due to an elevator shaft. PUDs for C1 outline criteria for height increases. The addition will also change the look and feel on North and South Rosebury. Although renderings were provided, not enough information was provided to complete a thorough analysis of the height and scale changes. No changes will be made to the frontage setbacks, but the proposed addition would encroach into the rear setback. Not enough information was provided a full analysis, but setback modifications can be made through the PUD process. The current site has no onsite parking and is served by street parking. As proposed, the site would incorporate five new spaces. A parking study would also be completed to determine demand. A chart of use-based parking requirements has been provided in the staff report and is available to view on the city's pending application page should anyone be interested in seeing that. The proposal has not identified a loading zone. Current requirements are handled via the street or the rear alley. Staff will review the operations plan for deliveries and similar vehicle services as part of the formal PED process. Public Works also provided two comments. Public Works will require a limited traffic and parking study for this development. The traffic engineer will analyze the trip and parking generation based on the existing versus proposed usage and any alterations to the public right-of-way or public assets to confirm to current city standards. So that is the summary of the staff report.

Okay, thank you. One other item, Ryan did mention it, but any of the comments tonight by anyone are not binding. We would be able to completely review it and make binding comments as we move through the process. So we'd like to invite the applicant up to comment further.

First, just need to

load a presentation.

Tyler, be sure to tell us who you are. Yeah,

I'm not actually speaking yet. So I haven't got to that part.

But I will. I don't have a mouse. Getting old Steve I can't see the screen. Is this the is this the desktop out here now. There we go, yeah, that's what I'm looking

for. Okay, my name is Tyler Stevens, principal at Corten Architecture and I'm here to talk about the project but I'm gonna first introduce Ellen Reed who is the owner and she is going to introduce herself and talk first. My address is

4501 Lundell Boulevard.

Good evening. My name is Ellen Reed, and I'm here tonight to talk about our proposed Hotel de Monde project and share our vision. I've been a Clayton resident and business owner for the past 20 years, working in real estate and residential development. I have a deep love for Clayton and our legacy of historic neighborhoods and architecture. This is also my home where my husband and I raise our two boys, Marcello and Massimo. Since the beginning of my 20-year real estate career, I've worked almost exclusively in Clayton. From starting out in 2002 at the Plaza in Clayton to growing my own firm, I have extensive experience that spans from leading large new construction developments to smaller historic renovations. As a developer, I've always chosen neighborhoods in Clayton that I've personally lived in. I think it's important to have a true local sense of the community so that I can make a positive contribution and maintain the original character of the buildings we restore and develop. Dumont in particular has been my most favorite neighborhood. I lived there for many years. My children were both born there. They had their first ice cream at Clementine's, and we're huge fans of all the local businesses in the Dumont Village. It's where we continue to spend our weekends as a family. I believe that Dumont is one of our most special neighborhoods in Clayton. It has vibrancy, walkability, local unique dining options, and proximity to our great parks. Hotel de Mun is designed to be a small neighborhood boutique hotel that celebrates those features and offers access to both locals and visitors alike. We envision Hotel de Mun as a welcoming neighborhood inn where your family and friends can come for an extended stay or where business travelers can come who want a more local and neighborhood feel. Our goal is to be a place where neighbors without extra bedrooms can have their in-laws stay just a short walk from home, or a place where homeowners can stay while they complete renovations. Hotel du Monde is designed to be where out of time visitors and locals alike can walk downstairs and shop and go to our local dining options. They could also visit our world-class parks and museums on a complimentary Hotel du Monde bike. With the feedback and collaboration of the city and the neighborhood, we hope to turn our vision of Hotel DuMont into a reality and restore a treasured block on DuMont where all of us can walk by, admire, and enjoy for many years to come. I'd like my architect to walk through all the specifics of our renovation plan and also note, as Steve mentioned, that we plan to host two community meetings within the neighborhood where we very much look forward to getting feedback and input from the neighbors and also answering any questions.

Thank you. Okay,

well, I hope you all are familiar with where we're talking about, but in case you're not, there's the map on DeMunn right in between. This is the full block between North and South Rosebury. The existing building looks like this, and many people probably think it's one building. It kind of comes across that way. It's actually two buildings, and if you look closely, you'll see that architecturally they're slightly different. They are both set up around the idea of a center circulation tower and then rooms on either side with an entrance door at the bottom. But the one on the south was built a little bit afterwards and has less detail. The windows don't match on the two buildings. They're different proportions. Styles are different. The retail is quite different all the way down. That's just the product of how this is adapted over the years. So one of the things that we want to do architecturally is to unify all of this and clean it up. So we have a rendering here that we have put forward. You'll see things like a unified storefront in the new color, the Hotel de Monde color. New windows throughout, which will be of the same style, have same patterning. We can alter the proportions a little bit. And then specifically with the window boxes, that's another way of tying both of these buildings together, but then also creating this kind of quaint neighborhood European hotel feel that you see. For those of you who've traveled outside of the US, you see these kinds of hotels all over the place. So this is the vision for what it would be on the outside. You'll notice that are not great changes. We're not tearing the building down. These are modifications to the existing building. Inside, the retail that's down there on the first floor, largely as Ellen mentioned, is unchanged. There is one bay on the corner, however, that has some dry cleaning services in it, which is not actually a... operating business right there. Right now, Ellen is providing it as owner of the building. But that dry cleaning bay will be transformed into what's called the library, which is neighborhood cafe concept. This will be right off of the lobby of the entrance to the hotel and be a place where people can come and sit and Mix, mingle, it transforms during the day from a cafe in the day to let's probably come down and get some drinks at night, that kind of thing while you're waiting to go to a restaurant or meet some friends. One of those comfortable neighborhood places. Emphasize this is not a coffee shop. We're not trying to put Caldees out of business. It's a wonderful asset to the neighborhood. All of this is meant to enhance what is there now, not compete with it. You might ask how we're gonna go about doing this. And the PUD process was mentioned earlier by Ana, and I'm gonna explain a little bit of why. First of all, hotel usage is not a use that's in this particular zoning at all. So we need a use first of all, and you'll notice, and when I show this map here, the neighborhood, if you were talking from an urban planning standpoint, I can't imagine a more perfect place to put a public neighborhood asset than where this is located in the neighborhood. It's almost like the streets were laid out around this building. It's at the very center of it all, spanning between North and South Roseberry. It fronts on the park. You see the Concordia Park wrapping all the way around it. It's just in an ideal spot to serve the neighborhood right in the center. However, the Daman neighborhood, another characteristic about it is that it's a very dense place. That's one of the things that makes it fun and walkable and a nice neighborhood. There's not a lot of parking in the Daman neighborhood. And certainly that applies to this lot. In fact, currently there's no parking on this lot. And we'll talk about that in detail a little bit more later. But we have already entered into talks with Concordia right across and they have indicated, and this is all written which we can add to you know our submittal eventually but you'll see that parking lot right up here in the in this corner is a parking lot that they've indicated that they're happy to share some parking spaces with us, as many as we need. While this is a hotel, I will emphasize the fact that we're only talking about 24 rooms. This is a very small hotel, very boutique. So we're not talking about a lot of parking. But from a planning standpoint, as I said, I think that the location is just right and it works very well. It's very walkable. both into Clayton, straight up to Munn. You can go all the way to Wydown and then into downtown. You can go over to Forest Park out to Clayton Road. The building itself as it currently sits, we'll just talk about massing a little bit because that relates to the PUD as well. The rear setback is the main issue here. And I actually ran into this same issue many, many years ago. The very first condominium I ever designed was down on 830 DeMunn, just about three blocks south of this. And it had the exact same issue, which is there's an alley running parallel to DeMunn and the buildings that face DeMunn, that alley then is their service in the back and it's considered the rear yard. However, when you do a rear yard setback off of that alley, you end up with a large gap in the street. You can see that here on Roseberry South and North. The pink indicates the existing building where it sits. And I mean the main mass of the building, the three-story portion. So there's a pretty large vacant gap in the street that goes all the way through. and back that previous building that I mentioned, I proposed the same variance. There it was a variance because it wasn't a PUD process. and the Board of Adjustment granted it because it made sense that you should build all the way to the alley so that you continue the streetscape on both sides. You don't interrupt it and don't have one of those, what they call a missing tooth. It almost looks like a vacant lot. So that's how this will work. We're gonna propose a new addition that wraps around the back turns it into kind of a donut shape and I'll have a service court in the center. The rest of the front, then the massing remains unchanged. So obviously I would like to hear as part of the comment process later, your thoughts in terms of this setback adjustment of the PUD process, because architecturally and from a planning standpoint, I think it makes more sense for the building to fill up the streets than to have these gaps. It's a little bit of a an odd property, and then it has streets on three sides. That doesn't happen very often. And so you have to treat it a little bit differently with regards to setbacks. I'm standing on Roseberry. This is the site that you see right now. This is the area we're talking about. Standing on Roseberry, here's the side of the building. That's DeMunn up there in the foreground. This is what was originally a garage space. It has been storage units for a very long time that runs along the alley, and it's just a separate block of a building. You can see right here the gap in between them. This gap is filled with fire stairs, equipment, various things. It's not very sightly, and it shows from the street too, and this is what happens when you have one of those setbacks like I'm talking about. Looking on down the alley, you can see that it's just that kind of a storage building with trash cans along it. So our proposal in expanding the building is to clean up this entire back, to remove all of that and complete the building all the way around the block, as it were. On North Roseberry, the end of the garage has a little retail space that was put in it years ago It's a very tiny little space. It's about 20 by 20. And this part will come down in terms of removing the building. That's that storage space in the back that we would be taking down. And then the existing building to this point right here, there's a one story extension on the bottom That's just, I'm not sure why, just the building was stretched out there. So we'll be cutting that right at that line. And that's where the transition will happen between the new and the old. This retail space that we're losing here, however, is more than made up on the other side of the street. You'll see that when I get to the floor plans. So the existing floor plan, here's the existing building, as we said, this is that gap where the fire stairs and all of the services. This is the storage building in the back, and this is the retail bay that we were talking about, and that's the one story portion. So we take that and we turn it into this. On the site plan, we extend the building all the way to the alley so that we can close the streetscape and make for a nice continuous street wall. That's where our new entrance to the hotel lobby will be. We'll have a little covered porch on the side that's part of that area where you can sit. We can introduce five parking spaces. This is five more than are currently there. even though it isn't fully all that we're needing. And then we have the additional retail bay here on South Roseberry. This is where we're stretching and adding it out on that side. So the first floor will then fill those street sides. Up above, you take what were existing second and third floors here in the front PB, Harmon Zuckerman, All that other stuff is low in the back and you stretch it out like this, where we get more rooms. This takes us to 12 rooms per floor which is 24 rooms total. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, And wraps around a service court. So this would be like an open service court and we can add a new elevator that way get accessible access to all the floors. I'm going to go back to the site plan just to talk about service a little bit because it was mentioned drop-offs and loading and those kinds of things. The other advantage of doing it this way is we can create an entrance here that is a service entrance through the parking into the service court. All of those unsightly dumpsters in the back can be pulled into this court and hidden from view. This is the way a lot of these little hotels work, where all the retail or all the lower level can access that. You see all these doors coming out of the various spaces. We can have our own laundry service right here in the middle that's to serve the hotel off of that service court as well. And then that's where the elevator can be put in outside of the footprint of the existing buildings. That is the plan for how we're going to expand it. The roof then, there was a made mention about height. In my opinion, and this is my opinion I will say, these kinds of height increases are a technicality in the code. Yes, we're not taking the building and adding a floor. So we're not making it a taller building. But in order to get to the roof, you have to extend the elevator up. So this little square here would be extended up above the height allowed. It's kind of like a chimney or a steeple on a church. That allows you to get access to the roof. So from the street, you will never even see that. It's far back off. It's on that interior court. So the street elevations don't change in terms of the height. That concludes what I wanna present to you in terms of what we're asking for. So the summary there, the things that would be, I guess zoning modifications is how you would say that in the PUD process would be one, the use of a hotel, two would be parking that it would be the five onsite and then the rest offsite at the seminary lot. And then the third would be the rear yard setback to the alley. I guess you can increase or you could also name the height, if you want to throw in the elevator thing. That I would love to hear questions, I know that you said that the public was not this was not a public hearing and I agree with that. We are interested in how the public will receive it though so we're looking forward to these public hearings. I think, as we were talking about, and I've seen a lot of projects in Clayton that are controversial and have lots of reasons for people to get upset. In talking with Ellen about this, this seems like a great addition to the neighborhood and to the city of Clayton. A boutique hotel that, much like maybe the Seven Gables Inn or something like that, there aren't a lot of these in Clayton. and I think it's a great neighborhood asset. So I hope that the neighbors will agree. I'd like to hear what you all think.

Well, I'll start out. Thank you both, Ellen and Tyler. I think if this goes ahead, it could be a very vital addition to this neighborhood. I think it would bring a different type of lifestyle into the neighborhood, and it could be very beneficial There are several things that you've brought up. I think continuing the building frontage along both North and South Roseberry makes a lot of sense. But of course, doing that means we have to do something with that 25-foot setback. So I guess you can see where I'm going. I think it's worth considering doing that through the PUD process. Other items that I see, when you got up to the roof, is there going to be a stairway up there? Oh, I don't see one

by code. Yes.

Well, that's why I'm asking.

Yeah, those are details that we have not worked out yet.

There would have to be. So we'll see that in the future. I am concerned about the parking for one will the parking the valet parking because the Concordia parking lot is fairly far away. It's not even within sight of the building itself. I think that has to be thought through. Of course, parking can be modified through the PUD process also, but I'm not really recommending that at this time. I think you and the owner need to take a look at that. Another question is, what happens with all of the existing ground floor retail? Do they stay intact as is, except for the corner at North Rosemary, which we've already heard is under control of the owner? Yes.

There may

not have an answer.

No, yes, I can say is the answer. Ellen and I have talked about that. The rest of the retail, there's no plan to change anything. They're all good tenants and we're not changing the floor plan. We don't need to modify any of it for the use of the hotel. So the hope is that they would stay.

You've indicated that all 24 units would also have kitchenettes or kitchens. Then that could become a longer stay type of a hotel. With that, it seems like parking might be a little more important rather than someone coming in for one or two nights. So I think you might consider that also. Will the actual units be changed in square footage? It looked like they would not be.

There's one exception. There's one that's a really big unit that will be cut in half That's

you can see

right here, this unit that becomes to the rest don't change. Well, I mean, they're the floor plans will change will modify walls and make them, you know, clean them up, modernize them, make the kitchen a little nicer. But in terms of the size, there's not an appreciable change now.

of that new unit, it looks like number six. Right there. It has windows looking into the open court below and will the corridor going around it, will that be able to be looked into the open court where you see all the trash receptacles?

Well, I mean, I don't envision that as a solid blank wall, no. I don't envision it as a glass wall either. It's somewhere in between. Oddly enough, in traveling this summer, I stayed in a hotel very similar to this. in Europe and there was our room actually looked out onto a trash court just like this. And so I knew that we had already been talking about this hotel, so I was looking for what did they do and is it an issue? And I would say one, it wasn't much of an issue because you're looking straight out, you're not necessarily looking down. But I being an architect and wanting to know, I leaned out the window and I wanted to look down And they had a pretty clever solution where they put a trellis over the top of it. So from the top, it's like you're looking down on a trellis and at first I wondered if there was something under it, like a garden or something, but then closer inspection, no, it was all trash cans. So there are things like that that can be done as well to screen.

Okay, then following up on the trash cans, they would go out through that exit on the ground floor.

PB Harmon Zuckerman. Yes, right, right through there.

So then all service would come through the alley.

That's the idea here for trash and the laundry and that kind of thing.

Is the alley actually wide enough? I have

driven through it. Yeah, it's a decent alley. It's a straight shot through there. There are no turns or anything. The actual width of it, I believe is 15 feet on the property lines, but then the buildings are set back five as typically are in an alley. And that's on both sides. When you drive through it, it certainly does not feel tight.

But we would have trash vehicles as well as delivery vehicles probably on a daily basis.

Which is, I mean, there's trash right now being picked up in there. Now, food deliveries to the retail, we all know how that really works. And we put those deliveries in the back and that's set up to where they can make food deliveries right to their kitchens in the back too. Most restaurants don't do that. They deliver from the street. I imagine that's the case here.

Well, I think you've summed it up with the issues you're going to have to deal with. But let's see if there are other comments. Carolyn?

As usual, you've covered a lot of what I wanted to say. Will the cafe have food as well?

I just wanted to address a couple of things. things that you mentioned, Steve, too. I think it's important, our plan and our goal with the design of the hotel European style, we say the word hotel, but when you think about the scale, we're encouraging people who stay to go to Caldeas, to go to Barrio, to go downstairs. So in terms of traffic or trash, to be honest, it's really not gonna be anything different than it is right now. There's currently 14 apartments upstairs So we're talking about adding 10 and everything else remaining the same. So it will dramatically clean up the back, but in terms of activity, deliveries, you know, we're not a large hotel. We're not an in-room dining. And even with our cafe concept, which we will partner with someone that we know the community will love, This is designed to be something that's gonna enhance what's there. Perhaps it's, we haven't developed it fully. It might be a bodega of sorts where neighbors can grab a sandwich and go to the park and the guests can do that. We feel that the existing retail on the entire block offers what every great hotel would want to have, which is something that feels really unique. They can go do yoga next door. They can go to the vegan place next door. They get ice cream. We don't want to operate those. We don't need to operate those. The neighborhood already does that for us. So I think it's important to understand the context. The back will be, I can't stand walking by the back because it looks bad, but that will be a dramatic improvement. And you then you asked something else. I just wanted to address those previous. Okay, yeah, we think, you know, generally speaking, we think the neighborhood and having lived in the neighborhood, and they're almost daily, you know, when I always walked around in the neighborhood, we loved as neighbors to not get in the car, you know, and so as much as we love all those restaurants, we would joke out if there was just something one more place that we we didn't want to drive even to downtown Clayton, as crazy as that sounds. We just loved that walkability of the neighborhood. And so we want to add something like that, which is why Tyler said, we don't need another coffee shop. We don't need another wine bar. We love all the things we have. It's more about providing something that we think both the neighborhood and And our hotel guests, which are going to attract people who don't want to be in something that's more corporate. They want to feel like they're ingratiated in a unique neighborhood that has this sense of place. And that's why we love Demund so much because of that.

I was just, if you're offering cocktails. Yeah.

I think the short answer is yes. We just haven't fully developed that yet as we're going through the process.

No, that's good. What actually happens on the rooftop? Why am I going up there if I have all the fun in the park? What happens on the rooftop when

I let you design small?

We honestly haven't worked a lot of that out yet. I just We wanted to make sure that we threw it in so that we have that option to do something on the roof. It's, that's a big desire right now everybody's doing these little rooftop things and so what would happen up there. You know, not sure yet.

Only be hotel patrons.

Well, ironically, you'll see if this elevator is set up. We did this in a way that as we work it out, it gives us some flexibility. You could actually come in. There's a little entrance vestibule here in the court. You could come in off the alley and get on the elevator in the back and go to the roof as a possibility. I don't know. Maybe that's a terrible idea, but it's... Yeah, well, certainly you don't want people coming and getting off on the rooms. But if there was some special thing up there, people could get there. But the point is that it's very flexible right now and we don't really have a full definition of it.

So it's also increased noise factor for the neighborhood surrounding anything other than just patrons going up and hanging out. Right. So concerts, music, stuff like that. Just be careful with some of that because you're going to get a lot of

pushback. I mean, I'd go back to the size that we're talking about.

Pretty small.

Very small. Although the Beatles held a concert on a roof like that. It was very successful once.

I was concerned about the loading too. I thought the trucks would block the alley from residential use, but it already exists. So I guess that works okay. I had a concern about, can you go to the first floor? That most northern parking spot that close to that building. A little concerned about them backing out. and having any kind of visibility to the people coming down that alley. I know it's not heavy traffic, but and also clocking the corner of that building. Well, I mean, it's really tight. That looks really tight. So you might want to think about it.

Sure. Well, one reason that buildings are often set off offset from the alley by this five feet is for that. My garage, for instance, I live on a 15 foot alley. My garage is Only three feet off, actually. But that extra coming out there is actually easy to make that turn. And it's not really any different than pulling out of a garage at a house, single family house. Yes, you can't see around that corner, but people don't drive very fast down the alley either. It's one block, so it's usually fine. We can set up mirrors and various things to help.

Is that going to be parking or parking?

It can be. That's a simple, yeah, that's a simple thing to add in.

And then I had a question about the street trees along DeMunn during construction on all of this and the ones on Roseberry North. They will be protected,

I'm assuming? Yes, well, the ones on DeMunn, there's not a lot of construction that will be happening on DeMunn. Yeah, but Even like window replacement, all of that can be done from the inside of the building. So there will be some. I'm not saying there's no construction. But those trees on all these streets are street trees. There are sidewalks and grates around them. So they kind of have a built-in protection already. But they'll be fenced off according to the normal things. I

was mostly asking because your rendering doesn't show them.

Oh, yeah, we leave them off so that you can see the building.

No, I know. I just wanted to make sure that.

Right. Actually, I think they may. Sometimes the city requires us to replace them. So like on, I could see that on roseberry. If smaller ones, some that are the wrong species, oftentimes we have to put in new ones.

The one where you showed your family, that tree is damaged now. My dad's an arborist. Oh, really? That's neat. I mean, you can see the trunk. Yeah, right. I mean, that's freeze-thaw explosion there. That's bad.

These look like silver maples anyway. Not the best street

trees. But otherwise, I like the idea of having a hotel because my husband and I every once in a while like to get away. We've gone to seven cables, so now we can go to this one. So get away in your own town.

That's the idea.

That's all I have.

Richard?

You know, I think it's a great idea. I'm sure you've done a market analysis. I'm sure there's a need for it. I think, you know, it's very attractive. And I think, you you know, Steve and Carolyn have talked about a lot of issues and I know there's outstanding issues that you guys have to talk about. I'm a little, can you just touch a little bit on how the retailers will do during construction? And then just what will happen to the U14 apartments? Are you working with the owner in terms of like letting their leases expire or just, you know, I'm concerned about the families that are living there that, you know, they're sending their children to Captain, which I understand is outside kind of the purview of the design of the building. But, you know, I represent the city as an older person, so it's a concern for me. So if you could just talk about that a little bit.

Sure, absolutely. So, you know, our retail tenants, we see this as a huge positive for them. You know, you'll have people who are staying and spending money and love, you know, walking and grabbing a glass of wine and getting something to eat. So I see this as a very positive impact for them. In terms of tenants upstairs, so we currently have 14 units All of the tenants are month to month. They've honestly kind of been that way. We don't have any families, mostly because the units are so small. Like on one side, the square footage is 400 square feet. There's studios and one bedrooms. They're just not quite conducive. You know, we welcome anyone, but we just, we happen to have no families. And most of our tenants are, come for a couple of months because they want a version of this, even though it's not nice inside right now and it's not elevated. That's part of what we've seen is this demand in term of some of the extended stay, but we can't do anything that's less than month to month. So we have one tenant who's been with us for a while, who's very much supportive of the project, mostly because She understands how much the inside of the building needs to be renovated. So so far, what we've heard has been, you know, positive and, you know, really what's driven me to this neighborhood is my love of the neighborhood and these are places that I go to myself personally in my free time so I see this as opening them up to, you know, outsiders and locals and staycationers. So I don't see any of it as a negative impact. New windows, you know, things that enhance the streetscape, getting the trash, you know, off the alley. I think our commercial tenants will appreciate that.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, part of it was thinking about how the retailers are going to do during construction, which I'm assuming they'll stay open during construction and then

And when we get more specific concrete plans, of course, we can answer in a more detailed way, but with construction primarily being on the back portion of the building, you know, the demand and I don't see anything closing down or anything while we do that. But of course, you know, we'll be in direct contact with our tenants and have more specifics when our plans are finalized.

And then I would just, you know, I kind of look forward to hearing what the community is going to say. I mean, I think the community conferences will be an enlightening and I would certainly encourage you to have at least one or both of them like at Concordia so they're easily accessed by the neighborhood.

Yeah, no, we look forward to that and we hope that, you know, the neighborhood is excited about something like this. You know, we get calls all the time already from people who you know, if they want something for month to month, what we offer now, because they had their baby and they live on Roseberry and they don't have place for their in-laws to stay or business travelers who loved them on, but you know, they can't stay there because they want to stay a couple nights a week consistently. So I think especially once the neighborhood understands, you know, our love of the community and also the fact that we are absolutely not tearing anything down. So. Thank

you. Ellen.

Yes, excuse me. I have a question about the existing entrances to the upper floors to the apartments. What will they be used for when the hotel comes?

So one of the aspects of doing the addition is to unite these into one building because right now there are four staircases. two in the front on demand and then two in the back. The two in the back are both fire escape stairs exterior. So you see the plan here going from the existing to the new, we can eliminate both of the back stairs and that gives us a circulation loop that is now a corridor with an exit on both ends. Then those stairs in the front stay and those become your way from the lobby up to, the one on the north side there becomes from the lobby up the rooms. And then the one on the south side with an exit out to the street, just like it does today.

Okay. That, Okay, so I would take the elevator. If I'm coming as a hotel guest, I come into the lobby off of North Roseberry and I go to the elevator and then go up to whichever floor I'm on.

Right.

So those existing front entrances are really exit stairs?

Yes. You can the front stair on the north side as I was pointing out. Let's see if we go to the first floor plan. So here's the lobby.

Yeah,

this is that library. you know, cafe space that we're talking about, which will all be connected. We're just showing doors right now. This may not even be a wall. This may be one big space. We don't know yet. But when you come in, if you can take the elevator or if you'd rather take the stairs because you're a person who'd rather take the yeah, then just right through the cafe, we'll have a connection into the stair, which you can go right up onto the floors from there.

Okay, I guess what bothers me is the those two entrances to the stairs from demand are prominent. And you're going to need to put exit only on them.

Yeah, I don't know that they have to be exit only. Well, I know what you're getting at. Unless the door is locked. I don't know. Grand

entrance because they're nice entries. The one closer to north roseberry is quite handsome and then it's only used for you know it's not an entrance really to much of anything unless you know what's going on upstairs so it's kind of that contradiction

yeah i understand where you're what you're getting at That's certainly something that we can take another look at as we develop the plans. We haven't, you know,

this

is not a full plan, but I know where you're going.

No, there's a lot of detail.

You see that a lot actually in historic buildings that have corner entrances. And then, but the parking's in the back. And so that the back becomes the main entrance and the corner is mostly a ceremonial entrance. And that's kind of how I was seeing this at the front. It's a ceremonial entrance, it doesn't mean it's the one everybody's going to use.

Yeah, no, I mean you could do as they do in Europe sometimes. I know we went out to dinner late. Here's the key to the front door when you come back. So you could do that as a keyed entry for the guests. My other question is who gets to park in the five onsite parking spaces?

Well, we'll reserve one for you when you come. I don't know that they're assigned or anything yet. There's going to be a handicap space in there, I know that. So that's one. I don't know if you've determined who gets what.

They'll be used for patrons upstairs and keep in mind right now there's currently 14 apartments that are already there with no parking. So what we're really talking about doing is adding 10 units and five parking spaces. That's the difference between where it currently stands. So it will be exclusive use for the hotel, of course.

OK. Everything else, everybody?

Amy?

Yes, everything was covered. I used to live in Daman. This sounds very exciting. I am very interested to see what the current people that live in Daman kind of think. Like I said, it does sound exciting. I just, you know, can go back and forth with that. I did have a question about the alleyway. I know with the setback, we kind of talked about it a little bit, but as far as like the dumpsters, you know, you're taking up all that space that is currently also has, you know, the storage and then it has space for the dumpsters and then the alleyway and your addition is taking up all of that space now. Where are those all going to be going now?

So currently, we're not actually taking up all that. Currently, those dumpsters sit in that five-foot zone, right? You see that?

There's the

property line right there.

Okay.

And the building is five feet off, which is like the storage units are today. Okay. Which is that strip where they sit. It looks like you were taking up more.

Okay. Yeah.

That makes sense. So it's the same condition.

And then as far as the open courtyard, why have it all lay open to the floors above if you're keeping trash in there?

One, to keep it aerated because trash will smell if you start sticking it inside the building like that. And there's not a use for anything above it. We want to also make sure that there's light coming into all these units in the back and they all have windows kind of look to that. So a courtyard like that allows light down into the units, allows a little bit of, I mean, even exiting and fire escape and that kind of thing. But just it's more inviting to have it open, let the air circulate, let the sun come in.

So those will only be seen by the units that have the windows, but not along the corridor at all?

Well, this is sort of what Steve was getting at I believe. So these units here have windows right there, there, there that look out into that courtyard space. Then there's the circulation hall. And the question is this wall right here, what is that going to be? And what I can say right now is that it's not gonna be solid and it's not gonna 100% glass. It will have some, I would like light to come into the corridor. So it should have some windows, some light spilling in. It doesn't show from anywhere. So it's an opportunity to do something really creative and wonderful in terms of architectural design that people don't like from the street for some reason. While I think it's a great idea, but something like that.

Yeah, I'm just really interested to see what the community thinks.

Bob?

Yes. First of all, I'm somebody who lives real close to there and I start off every morning going to Calde's. And my neighbors have already been calling me. And the first thing they mentioned, a hotel. And I'm not sure they're thinking this is going to be a Ritz-Carlton or something. And the second thing they talk about is parking. From my point of view, preserving the neighborhood and the walkability is key. And I hear you guys are really concerned about that. And what you're doing to the building rehabbing it in a nice way kind of enhances the feel of the neighborhood from what you have described. So I really give you a plus for that. With regard to that library you talk about, a coffee place, bakery, is that open to the public or what is your vision of that?

Yes. Our concept for some type of dining and retail in that space, that would absolutely be open to the public as well as the hotel guest.

Okay. With regard to the fact that it's a hotel use, doesn't bother me so much because all you're doing is going from if I recall, 14 units. And these are like efficiency places. And I know some of the people that live there, they're kind of like young people who are just getting by financially, I'll say it that way. And they're small and you're going to add 24. So you're going to 10 more units. Is that what I am hearing from you? That's correct. And so in terms of parking, you're now proposing that, well, first of all, let me say this. You're not adding that many more parking burden on it. But the problem is the burden's already great to begin with. And I think we're all reacting to that. And then you say, well, we could go over to Concordia. And that's a long way off where you're talking about, especially in rain, cold weather, whatever. Tell me your thoughts about that. And then you will have valet parking, I suppose you're going to. But if somebody wants to walk park themselves or do you anticipate saying well go go park over at concordia seminary and just haul your luggage all the way over to your place can you address it

yeah

I'd say one answer to that is yes. I go back to when I was just saying my wife and I traveled this summer, and we stayed in about six of these types of places all over Scotland. And when we would get there, we would go to the pub down on the first floor and get the key. And then they would say, you know, your room's upstairs. And I would say, where do I put my car? Because being Americans, we had to rent a car, right? Now, most people don't even have to rent a car here. So a lot of these people may not have cars. But since we did have a car, the answer was usually, here's a little map. And about three blocks down that way and turn left and go around, there's a Tesco lot. And we have an agreement there, you can park in the Tesco lot. So I did that numerous times, park, rolling bags, down for three blocks through some quaint little town. That's what you do on vacation. And I was happy to do it. Yes, it would be nice to have a parking spot right in front, but that doesn't mean that it was an encumbrance. I think that we are just overly accustomed to being able to park right in front of the door. And if we provide parking right in front of every building we build, then we will not have quaint walkable cities. We'll have St. Louis County, giant parking lots and stuff like that. That's the difference between this kind of neighborhood and something that is very suburban. So that's kind of how I see it.

Well, I'm not telling you that that's wrong. I mean, first of all, I applaud you for preserving the buildings. The buildings that you're looking at are old, tired buildings. And at some point, somebody's got to do something with them to bring it up to the 21st century. And you're doing it in such a way as to preserve the character of those buildings and to keep the neighborhood feel. So for that, I really applaud you. I'm just trying to imagine is the hotel concept where people are going back and forth Is that, I mean, I'm not here to be your business counselor and I hear what you say about people do walk, but that's what you anticipate is what I'm saying.

I do want to add though, we will have five dedicated parking spaces on the site. So you will do loading and unloading when you check in and check out within those spaces. And to keep in mind with only 24 units, And because we do plan to have small kitchenettes, we do think we'll have a mix between people staying because their adult children just had their grandbabies and they'll stay for a couple of weeks. Business travelers who will Uber or weekenders who will use the bikes to explore the neighborhood. Because it's not a high trafficked place and we will be adding parking. As much as Tyler's okay with lugging his stuff, that really won't be necessary with the five spaces that we'll have. So some people will be able to load and unload directly behind the building and the elevator. And then we'll also have some kind of probably supplement, you know, valet service and or self park depending on what people prefer. But we really are promoting a place that you would come and use the bikes, you know, demand is a walkable neighborhood anyone who's lived in that neighborhood when I live there. you embrace walking blocks to get your coffee. It's not a big deal. And with Uber and all the technologies we have today, we do anticipate less drivers. And one thing I will add, you know, with the 14 units that we currently have that are more studios or apartments or younger people, they honestly tend to have two cars. So currently you might have 14 units with 28 cars. we'll be adding 10 units, but most people on vacation do not rent two cars if they rent a car at all. So I think the parking burden will, you know, we'll find it will actually be less, but we do think it's important to have our agreement with the seminary to have overflow.

Okay. Well, uh, I think, uh, You've done quite an admirable presentation to present us what your thoughts and your plans are. And I appreciate your responses. So I have nothing further. Thank you.

David? Okay, so a lot's been said. I don't know that I have a whole lot to add. I do think it's certainly an exciting project. I think it's a good fit for the neighborhood there. But That being said, there's a lot of detail that we don't have tonight to evaluate. So I look forward to a PUD and everything that's associated with that. And even more importantly, the public benefit component that's required in a PUD through the point system. And with a lot this size, it's going to require some unique features or some innovation, I think, in order to get that done because you're really built out to the edges. the way this has been presented here. So getting those points, I think may be a little bit challenging, but I look forward to seeing what kind of creative solutions you might have to navigate that process. So

that's it. Thank you. Thanks, David. I had two other items following up what Helen was saying about the entrances on the rendering. The one in the Northern building actually says Hotel de Monde. So it looks like a major entrance. And it also has a, looks like a glass canopy above it. Both of those I think might be enticing people to try to go in there.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And part of that is one of the reasons why we don't have a lot of detail, as you just said, is because our main goal here tonight was just to see if the idea of the hotel use is acceptable. So we didn't wanna put a lot of effort into this if you were gonna say that you can't have a hotel here, no matter how you do it. I'm hearing and I would like, this is my main question to you all. It seems like the use is not a problem. It's the details of how it's worked out. If I read that. One of those things is that rendering was done before we had the lobby in the back. We used to have that as the main entrance to the hotel. And so, yes, it had a glass canopy over it. It says Hotel du Monde. Later, as we developed this a little bit further for the submission, we decided that it was really better to move that lobby to the back so that we could keep the retail up front and not take up a front retail bay with just a lobby entrance, which is why it's the way it is now. And we did not take that canopy off the rendering. But you make excellent points in terms of we don't want to sell that as the main front door.

Tyler, I think you've summed it up very well. I had one other item, and that was the handicapped parking space is one of the five. There's no way that I can see for a handicapped person to get into the building unless they go through the elevator.

That will all be worked out.

We'll leave it at that. That's one of the details. I do agree with, I think most if not all of my colleagues that I think this would be a very good addition, bringing a lot of vitality in another choice into the neighborhood. So hopefully you'll take all of our comments as being questioning or constructive and we'll look forward to the next step.

I have one more. The drop off on demand. What is that for? drop-off area since that's not the main entry of the hotel.

Where do you see

that?

The street parking on demand, is that what you're talking

about?

Yes, that's existing. As part of this, as part of working out the parking solution, Ellen mentioned loading from the parking spaces in the back That's certainly viable. Another thing to add to that could be buying one of those parking spaces, just like the restaurants do as like a dedicated valet drop-off. You know, that could be another use of that if the city is amenable.

Well, we'll let you work on all the details and have them all resolved by the time you come for the citizen conference. And and we'll see where it goes from there.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you. We're still in the meeting, so if you could move your conferences out of the

Folks, we're still in our meeting.

Friends, this is still an open meeting. If you would move your conferences outside.

Okay,

thank you everyone. We have one more new business item and that's 6,800 Y down. and it is a CUP

request. Okay, I think we can continue Ana.

ACM Conference 29th, Okay, so this is a request from font bond university for an amendment to their conditional use permit to allow for the renovation of the top floor of their East building from office and classroom type spaces into dorm units, so in the staff report. It covers the criteria for review for conditional use permits, and I'll just provide a brief summary of this. So the property is located at the southeast corner of Y-Down Boulevard and Big Bend Boulevard. The property is zoned R2 single family. Colleges and universities in the zoning district R2 are allowed with a conditional use permit. The campus contains multiple buildings and parking lots that support the functions of an advanced education institution, including classrooms, offices, dorm rooms, dining, and recreation. Over the years, there's been many amendments to conditional use permits to address issues of parking as well as changes of use and additions to existing buildings. The East Building is one of the first buildings that was constructed on campus. In 2003, there was a CUP amendment that addressed renovations to this building to convert the auditorium space into classrooms and offices. The top floor of the building was not significantly renovated during that project other than the addition which provided elevator access. The applicant now is proposing to significantly renovate this top floor of the to create necessary dormitory units that would provide for a maximum of 48 students. In terms of compatibility, the proposed renovations did not substantially alter the campus. All the renovations will be located within the footprint of the existing building. Parking is provided through the multiple parking lots within campus, including the most recent parking lot expansion, which is located on part of Concordia Seminary property. The affluent has stated in their letter that parking has Parking demands have significantly declined over the last few years with the reduction in on-campus events due to COVID as well as a reduction in the enrollment numbers. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed change in use for the top floor should not significantly impact the adjacent residential areas as this use is located inside of an existing building footprint that is more than 100 feet from any property lines. In terms of traffic, staff is of the opinion that this proposed change in use will not significantly alter traffic patterns to or from the site. In terms of bicycle parking, there's a requirement in the code for bicycle racks based on the number of dwelling units. There's various locations of bicycle parking available throughout the campus and staff recommends that one rack minimum is added to support the addition of the residential use in this area. In conclusion, Fontbonne University has been located on this campus for 100 years. And during this time, there have been a variety of modifications and improvements to the campus, including construction of new buildings and renovation of existing ones. The proposed renovation to one of the oldest buildings on campus from office to classroom space will provide a new living and learning residential floor that'll help the university meet current needs. The project does not involve expanding of any buildings and based on the density of the use, is not likely to increase parking or traffic demands. Staff recommends to recommend approval of the CUP amendment to the Board of Aldermen with the following condition, a minimum of one bicycle rack shall be installed adjacent to the east building to support the residential component.

Thank you.

Thank you. I'm Adam Weihaupt, the provost at Fontbonne University. My office is at 6800 Weidown Boulevard. I want to start by thanking Ana and the staff for helping us to understand the process here for a conditional use permit and answering all of our questions as we went along. As you mentioned, we're applying for this conditional use permit to create an interprofessional living learning community on the third floor of East Hall. As part of that renovation, we'll take it from its current use which is a mixture of classrooms and offices to up to a 48 bed residence hall use. This living learning community model houses students who share a common interest. In this particular case, it'll be students in nursing, dietetics and speech language pathology from freshmen up through the graduate level. The idea here is that you take people with common interests and they have an opportunity to interact with each other, to interact with staff and faculty with those interests. sort of taking the whole idea of a work-life balance and turning it on its head, that these are all the things that we're gonna live and breathe all the time and do together. It's really perfect for our college environment. More importantly to us, research shows that that improves retention and graduation in those areas, which of course are very high demand fields in Missouri. In addition, as you mentioned, we have reached capacity on our current residence halls and we've got increased interest for living on campus. Although enrollment has declined, we find more and more students want to live on campus as we're recruiting from outside of the region and in different fields. Thank you for your consideration. Happy to answer any questions you have.

Okay. It looks like a fairly simple procedure. Most of the rooms are already there with all the partitions. Looks like even the... The toilet and shower rooms are already there. I really don't see any problem with it. I certainly am supportive of university, but let's go around. Carolyn?

I'm in support as well.

No comments.

Richard?

No, I think it's great that you guys are growing and I think it's wonderful that you'll be able to house more students on campus I know the mayor, especially wasn't it was at an event that you guys held I apologize I can't remember what it was. But she just spoke so highly of the fun fun community and so i'm really happy to hear that you've kind of come up with this project and want to provide for more students living on campus. You know, I think the surrounding community, clearly they were much more concerned about the hotel. Those are all Ward 1 residents. But obviously you clearly have not parking on campus to support this. So I'm certainly supportive of the project.

Thank you. Ellen?

I have no further comment. It looks good.

Amy?

No comment. Looks great.

Bob?

No comments. Support it.

David.

No comments.

Okay. There's really no one else to comment tonight. I don't see any hands up on the virtual people. So we do have a staff recommendation. You understand that about the bicycle rack? We do, and we happily accept that. We will install one. And do we have a motion to recommend approval of the CUP to the Board of Aldermen?

I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Thank you. Thank you. When will you have that ready for occupancy?

Well, we certainly would like to have it available, at least part of it available for fall 2023. So we do plan to start construction after all the rest of the approvals as soon as we can. Thank

you.

Well, good luck. Okay, we've come to our discussion on the Maryland Gateway Overlay District.

And we received

nothing in the packet. Is that correct?

There was nothing in the packet about this. Correct. I'll go through it.

Okay, so this is a presentation that Steve's mentioned was not included in your packet. So we're just going through a discussion session to talk specifically about the Williamsburg shops, which is a block of the Maryland gateway overlay district. So this discussion session is really stemming from discussions that started with the, at the board of Alderman level. There've been a few discussions that David led with them talking about historic preservation districts and different ways to set up historic districts and what our current regulations allow for. and kind of diving into the heart of why they wanted to learn about historic districts, we found that really there was a lot of interest in protecting the scale and development size and other entities of this block that's along the north side of Maryland Avenue between North Forsyth Avenue and North Brentwood, North Forsyth Boulevard, sorry, and North Brentwood Boulevard. And really the historic character of those specific buildings as they exist right now So speaking through kind of what the goals were with the Board of Aldermen, we kind of came up with two general categories. One to ensure that future development or renovation matches the scale of existing structures in this block. And the second one is to protect the historic character of that block. So thinking about those two goals, we went over options. There is historic preservation districts and creating a local district that could address some of those concerns and really particular elements of these buildings, but there's also potential for text amendment within the Maryland Gateway Overlay District that I think would be a more immediate step to kind of quell some of the fears related to redevelopment of this block. So currently as it's highlighted in red, so this block is all zone C1, but it's already located within an overlay district. And then within the Maryland Gateway Overlay District, there are a variety of elements related to development that have specific regulations for them. And so instead of starting over from the process of understanding historic preservation district, or local historic district for this area, we kind of recommend as staff that we look at some of those existing regulations of the overlay district and potentially modify those to start with. So what I'm going to do is kind of step through a few of the existing Maryland Gateway Overlay District sections and highlight some potential text modifications that would address some of those concerns and get some feedback from you all since This really came from the Board of Aldermen before we actually go forward with any concrete text amendment. So first of all, and keeping in mind those two goals that we talked about, so the scale development and then also the historic character, when we look at the planned unit development currently in the overlay district, items A and B are the existing code language. So anything you see in bold on the slides, the bolded areas are elements that would be new, that would be potential text amendments. So a big part of the discussion when we think about the scale is the use of a PUD. That's how, you know, the majority of the projects that are of a larger scale or slightly different density are approved. And in many cases, to be able to go through a PUD, you have to kind of be exceeding some of those scale requirements. or setback limitations. So one of the things that we propose looking at it is specifically isolating this block and removing it from eligibility for PUD development. And that would just ensure that development moving forward within that area would have to meet the kind of regulations and guidelines that are outlined here, or go through a variance process as opposed to through the PUD process. And the second one is building height. So right now in the area within the maryland gateway overlay district is limited to three stories there's discussion of again calling out this block specifically and limiting that height further to two stories it is a still a commercial area so the transition zone that this provides between the significantly taller buildings on the south side of maryland and the single-family residential to the to the north side i do think it it's still important to allow this area to consider two stories, even though currently, as you can see from the image below, we have one story buildings. I don't think that we want to limit it quite to one story, it's a little hard to see in this image. But through some of the trees, you can actually start to see some of the roof lines of the homes of the single family homes north of there. So thinking about that transition zone, I do think it's important to still offer some scale to really, in the future potentially address that transition while still protecting some of the other elements through other aspects of the code. maximum floor area. So again, just to make it really clear, we would call out the exception of this block. So not even though we called it out earlier, we're just reinforcing that you could not modify the floor air ratio requirements through the PUD process for this specific block. setback provisions and step back resumes. Right now, the front yard setback for the Maryland Gateway River District is almost, you know, it's encouraged that you build up to that property line. But as you can see here, the red dash line represents where the current buildings are, and there's a really uniform setback. So pulling from the type of language you see elsewhere in the code, one way that we could really protect and enhance this additional, you know, ACTIVATION OF THE WIDER SIDE BLOCK AND THE SEATING AREA FOR RESTAURANTS IS TO REQUIRE THAT THE BLOCK FACE BE USED TO ESTABLISH A SETBACK AND IT WOULD ESSENTIALLY PROTECT WHERE WE HAVE OUR SETBACK RIGHT NOW. ANOTHER WAY YOU COULD DO THAT IS ACTUALLY GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF FINDING OUT WHAT THAT SETBACK DIMENSION IS AND INSTEAD OF CALLING IT OUT AS THE BLOCKFACE, WE COULD PUT IN THAT EXACT NUMBER FOR A FRONT YARD SETBACK. And then when we think about the architecture character, the historic character of these shops and stores, another element that we would be able to provide to really ensure that buildings continue to pull some of those aspects is looking at the materials. So adding in brick being a primary material and then limiting some of those other secondary elements to just 5%. Looking at the spread here, as you can see, I mean, large retail windows and other aspects of the design are really important in this block. And so I think a lot of those are covered through the other standards here that are listed on your screen for architecture review. But one of the elements that wasn't really specifically called out was the one calling up brick. So that would be one that we would add to really just reinforce those material choices. And that is pretty much where it stands from a discussion session standpoint. So feel free to kind of provide feedback on specific elements here, or if you want to have any more discussion about what spurred this and really some of the goals we can do that as well.

Thank you. Is there anything stated about parking in

this section? I bring it up is if we were to allow two floors, we would be increasing the square footage of one or more properties, which then might demand more parking. Parking is somewhat tight on the north side of these buildings right now.

Right, so as it's currently written, three stories are allowed. So we're actually reducing it for this, but we didn't attack it from a parking standpoint, so I haven't done that analysis on exactly what the parking is, but I don't believe in the Maryland Gateway there's anything that significantly alters our off-street parking regulations.

Well, whether it is three stories currently allowed or two stories in the future, either one of those could increase square footage available, which could bring more people in, which could bring

Right, so the way it's currently written, we're not modifying the parking regulations. We're actually removing the PUD process, which is how some people do modify their parking regulations. So whether they build two stories or three stories or whatever it would be, the existing off-street parking regulations and those calculations would apply to any new development moving forward in this.

Okay. You said you could give us a little more history of why we're here on this?

Sure. So if you have anything else that spurred the start of it, but basically there were discussions at the Board of Alderman level that kind of started from what are historic preservation and how can we create local districts and what do we have? And I think there was some concerns about how the PUDs have been used elsewhere to really significantly change the scale of development along a block. And this was a block that specifically was a part that people wanted to make sure was protected from that happening because of the really unique character of it. And so when those conversations built and we kind of got down to the point of what about this block are we really looking to protect? Is it a specific building or is it the scale and elements of that building, but it could be replaced with a new one and we would still be okay. And that's why we kind of went back to the root of adjusting the overlay district as opposed to a historic district, which would be the case if we were trying to make sure that those specific buildings are not torn down and replaced. then if that was the case, that was really the heart of the concern, then we would potentially look at a historic district and preservation as opposed to overlay district. Feel free to add

anything. It's as simple as that. I think this was just the intersection of two conversations that were kind of going on at the same time. One being let's identify areas in the city that have unique character or historic elements, find a way to preserve them, which we've done to a great extent in residential neighborhoods. We have several that are on the national register already. although we don't have local designations, but that effort's kind of been taking place. It's been happening in residential areas, but hasn't really moved over to commercial areas. But I think it was that historic conversation coupled with a desire to hold on to some of those smaller scale street level retail opportunities in the downtown area. We really don't have many left. We can. identify them pretty quickly. I think there are three other than this. So it was just trying to identify those particular opportunities and this happened to fit both of those categories. The historic district process though is very daunting to set up some kind of local regulation, some sort of local district over this particular stretch would require us to put it on the national register with all the survey requirements and everything else that go along with that. then establishing a set of local ordinances to regulate that. And then this body would also act as a landmarks board that would enforce the ordinances that are written for this specific block. And it's just, it's a whole lot of work when there's an overlay already in place that almost gets us there. So with a few minor modifications, you know, we can really accomplish those goals.

And I, and one, I think too, out of that discussion, you know, having bringing it down, because as you mentioned on it, you can have three stories here. But then everybody started to talk about Clayton Road, which is fine. But then you've got Ladue Nails, which kind of sticks out like a sore thumb, which in theory, you could have a Ladue Nails here, like in terms of tearing down a building and adding height. So everybody kind of thought it would be nice to keep it to two stories. And I think people mentioned too, I mean, Simons is a new building. but they did a really nice job of fitting in so that using the same architectural details and materials, so finding a way if people were to take down a particular building, because a lot of these buildings are really old. But again, being able to preserve that character of that stretch.

Well, when you compare... This property to Clayton Road, I think Maryland has a distinct character to it that we don't want to lose. Clayton Road really doesn't have that highly developed character to it. And also Maryland is distinctly walkable where Clayton Road is not.

And I was more just kind of saying that too, because people are like, well, you know, three floors would be okay. But then everybody was like, yeah, well, what about the new nail? You know, it's just not particularly, I mean, everybody's used to it now, but you know, we just, I wouldn't necessarily want to see a three-story living nail for middle of the street.

If we were to go ahead with this text amendment to the overlay district, What about the properties to the west, which are also low rise, a budding residential? They are not as retail oriented, but someone may want to come in and have some protection over there all the way out to Gay Avenue.

Sure. I mean, I think it really, some of this, the reason for proposing it the way we have for this block is that there is a very clear difference between the character of this block and West along Maryland. I do think that the existing overlay district does provide a good amount of protection. So a great example is the region's bank redevelopment. So that whole site was redeveloped in 2010 within the standards that the existing Maryland Gateway Overlay District allows, and it resulted in a scaled development that kind of meets the area. So I do think that in some ways it works in the ways when we get closer to the downtown and the concern about this specific block is why we proposed the language that we have here. I think the larger discussion of the overlay districts and what they could do in that transition zone on a larger downtown to residential scale is definitely going to be something that we talked about through the comprehensive plan. And so I do want to be careful of us attacking, you know, one concern, one specific concern, and then letting that kind of spread out to further and further arms without a really holistic approach to it. So that would kind of, I do think that without any sort of immediate development potential of sites to the west, there hasn't been any discussion about it. We're not in the, you know, under the rope to try and change what's happening there. But I'll let you all speak on it further if you feel differently.

Well, I wasn't proposing it. I was just saying what if. I do think we should follow it up with the Williamsburg shop property alone. And I think from yours, Anna, and your comments, David, The text amendment is the appropriate way to go get it done now. Other comments?

Can I jump in here for one second?

Sure.

I think the text amendment is the way to go. I would have some problems trying to create a historic district looking at the buildings on the screen that they're going to qualify. I mean, There's a difference between trying to preserve a distinct character, which is a good goal here versus making it a historic district to accomplish that same end. To me, it's a little bit like fitting a square in a circle to go the historic route looking at some of these buildings. So I agree with the text amendment.

Further comments? Anything further from you on.

No, I think that's that's it well i'm pretty much see for draft number one of the tax payment so we'll clear that up. and propose it for the one other element that I did forget to mention that was discussed at the board level was starting to get into other aspects when we talk about like roof lines and other elements of this character. Like I mentioned before, we didn't add that here because I do think that the other standards listed for ARB review that are already in the code, we can use those to kind of address the other aspects of these shops that we find important along with the the owners have not expressed any interest in selling or doing significant redevelopment. So I do think we're covered in that aspect. So we'll go ahead and prepare the tax amendment and schedule some public hearings.

Thank you. Anything else before we close up tonight? Amy?

Nothing further.

Ellen?

Nothing further.

Bridget? No. Carolyn? Bob?

I can use a bigger umbrella in San Francisco. So I can tell you.

Try to stay dry. David, nothing else tonight? Nothing else.

I am going to throw a little bit of a wrench here and add something else for us tonight. So we didn't have it on the agenda, but looking at our timeline, I do think it will be important for us to designate the roles of the plan commission for the comprehensive plan. February 1st is the deadline for us to get all of our responses back from anybody interested in being the consultant for the RFP. So we would like to know who from this plan commission will be serving on the interview panel and who will be serving on and know what's happening when we try to schedule interviews in February. So I do think since we have everybody here right now, it would be a good opportunity for some discussion. I'll kind of step back and let you all take the lead. If you have any questions based on what we've been discussing on those two roles, feel free to let me know. We'll still be here, but I do think this is probably the most ideal time for us to get that conversation going and still meet our schedule.

Can you summarize the two different ones again?

Sure. So we are going to have split you up. So David kind of coming over here to join us as staff in this process. So three of you will serve on the interview panel and three will serve on the steering committee, obviously. you're all going to be involved throughout the whole process and different roles, but the three that serve on the interview panel will be responsible for helping us interview the consultant teams that have responded as well as selecting the at-large community members that will serve on the steering committee. So you'll kind of have a heavier front load of duties. And then we really hope and encourage you to continue to attend meetings and, and, throughout the process, whereas the steering committee, once the process goes, then after working with our consultant, we'll set up kind of a regular meeting schedule for the steering committee that will help provide some feedback and act as a sounding board as the process goes on. And then as we start to draft up the process, and then everybody will come back together as the full plan commission once we have the draft plan before you. Okay.

And you want us to tell you what our preferences are tonight?

This is up to you. Really, you'll have to tell me who's on which committee so we make sure that we're trying to coordinate schedules and organizing and distributing the interview stuff. So I'm going to step back and let you all decide who's on which, as opposed to you just telling me preferences and hopefully it will work out where we can have fit three and three smoothly.

Ellen, I'd like you to make a comment because you already have to me.

i'm

i would like to be on the steering committee um i've been in clayton since 76 i bought in what was considered shantytown and basically i've always lived in cities and i orient to cities so I keep a watch and kind of delve into what makes them click. So the steering committee aspect really appeals to me. But by the same token, I realize that maybe everybody's feeling and everybody's qualifications. So I'm good with wherever Steve thinks I should be.

I

like that, Ellen. I think that's perfect. I'd be more interested personally in the interview being on the screen for that because if I was on the ARB, my firm Wolpert would be applying for the comprehensive plan. So I think I'm more than qualified to review other people's submissions. And I was also on the parks. And that was a lot of fun. So I'd be a little bit more interested in that.

I'd be more interested in the steering committee. As an attorney who's been in litigation, I've done, I reviewed comprehensive plans for 40 years. So I'm pretty familiar with them.

Amy?

I'm happy to do both. To Helen's point, I think, although I know... but I'm really happy to do both. But I think steering committee appeals to me because I haven't been here from 76, but raising a young family here, we can plan on being here and seeing our kids throughout living in the city. So I think my perspective is different and unique in that way. So it's my preference, but I'm happy to go do whichever.

Bridget, I'm not sure how you would fit into either one as the aldermanic rep, but how do you feel?

I mean, I also am happy to do both. I do think it would be helpful to have a member of the board of aldermen on the steering committee in so much as it would be a good way to facilitate communication between the steering committee and the board of alderman because, although the plan Commission is the final. has the final say you know I do think it will be helpful to be able to. communicate to them. But again, I'm happy to do either role. And I think it, I don't know, I think, although David will always be there and David knows the answer to every question, just having somebody who's on the board, just kind of in terms of just having like a touchstone of, you know, what the community would like. I think there's, I've gained a certain amount of knowledge in this job in the last five years. So I think just kind of understanding different parts of the community, I think might be helpful in the role, but again, happy to do either.

Well, it comes down to me and I had assumed I would probably be on the steering committee also. So I don't think we can have five people on the steering committee. at this point. So I think we have a little more work to do. The other thing is, I will be gone for two weeks in February. I don't know if that conflicts with interviews.

Right. I mean, since we haven't scheduled any specific times yet. So I know you mentioned that. So it could very well impact the schedule. It could be that you're gone when it works out to get everybody in the room to do the interviews. But I just don't know that at this point. So the... The idea of splitting three and three also, you know, there's no statutory requirement that we do it in that way. That was just some way that David and I discussed that we thought might be a good way to split up the planning commission throughout the process. So that aspect of it is I can understand everything that you guys have said about why you would be more interested or best served on other ones is all valid. So I think we just maybe needed to discuss it a little further.

Yeah, we can. And the concept with the nine was equal parts plan commission, other commissions and community at large. If we go over three, we're also in a situation where we have a quorum members at every one of those steering committee members or meetings. So it's not just the steering committee, but I guess it's an official plan commission meeting as well. So that's another reason to keep it at three. But I realized we have five that are interested. So we need to figure out how to pare that down a little bit.

I'm not sure we're going to figure that out this evening. Can we have a little time and maybe we can talk again and see where we go. We've got time.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think we'll, I think we'll have time. So we'll be collecting everything, you know, the first February 1st, we'll have a plan commission meeting around then. So I, we will want to get it figured out in the first, the beginning of February at the latest so that we can schedule the interviews to make sure that we have the applicant or the consultants can get here for those. So we'll let you guys mull on what was discussed tonight and come back together.

Okay, thank you. Anything else? Not on the agenda?

that's the only curveball I had for you tonight.

Okay, we will work on that and then we'll plan to be back here on Monday, February 6th. So meeting adjourned.

Thank you

everyone.