April 18, 2022 — Meeting Transcript

Chairman Steve Lichtenfeld?

City Manager David Gipson?

City Manager David Gibson?

Carolyn Gatiss. Here. Robert Dunlow. Helen DiFate. Here. Kami Waldman. Here. Ira Berkowitz.

Carolyn Gatiss. Here. Robert Dunlow. Helen DeFate. Here. Kami Waldman. Here. Ira Berkowitz.

Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes. I second.

All in favor?

Okay. Hello. Okay. Yes.

Good evening, Anissa Cumro, Principal Planner with the City of Clayton. This project was held at the April 4th meeting in order for the applicant to attend. The 16,271 square foot property is located on the north side of Francis Place just west of the city's eastern boundary. The project consists of the installation of three retaining walls to replace the existing failed retaining walls. The planned locations of the walls are along the existing driveway, along the front porch and along the western side of the home. Due to the steep grade of the property along the driveway, the wall along the driveway will reach a height of 12 feet with the length of this wall totaling 24 and a half feet. The walls are proposed to be constructed from vintage six rockwood modular block and the project also includes the removal and replacement of the existing cracked concrete walkways with modular pavers. The ARB prefers the use of masonry walls and front yards. However, modular block walls are allowed if they include three different block sizes, a varying color pattern, and tumbled edges. The proposed walls conform with this requirement, and staff's recommendation is to approve as submitted.

Okay,

you.

No, just my apology. I apologize for missing the last meeting. I had it at Thursday, which is when Webster Groves has their ARB meetings. And so I got the two confused. So my apologies.

I didn't have any other comments. I think it looks great. Thank you.

No comment.

No comment.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted?

I second.

Aye.

Thank you very much.

This is the site plan review for 21 Dartford Avenue. The 16,000 square foot site is located on the west side of Dartford Avenue between Ydown Boulevard and Aberdeen Place. The applicant is proposing a new two-story single family residence measuring approximately 2,500 square feet. The project meets the setback height and previous coverage requirements of the R2 zoning district. In terms of impervious coverage, the existing total lot impervious coverage on the site is 37.2%. The proposed plans increase the total lot impervious to 46.2%, which is under the maximum 55% total lot coverage allowed. The existing stormwater runoff according to the MSD 20-year, 20-minute storm calculation is 0.92 cubic feet per second. The proposed runoff is 1.04 CFS, which represents a 0.12 CFS increase. A drywall system is proposed in the front yard to mitigate the increase in stormwater runoff. The proposed landscape design for the project provides a mix of trees, shrubs, and perennial ground cover that is cohesive with the site design and the neighborhood character. Staff is of the opinion that the project meets the criteria for site plan approval. And our recommendation is to approve as submitted. That concludes my presentation.

for the first floor plan, the footprint of the building. Look on A2.1. Yeah, it's 3216. So right below the title block, that was a...

Well, no. So the total square footage, if you add up the... The different floor plan. Second floor is 2600. So 32 plus 26 basically. 51. Basement is another 20. 2600.

Well, and I think the site plan meant to do the footprint. I think that's what they were talking about.

I guess

Well, Eric should be online. He's the civil engineer with goals. Are you there, Eric? He

Oh, sorry. Oh, it's green. Sorry, sorry.

I did not hear Chris' response, but I believe you were asking about the drainage.

Yes. So looking at C4, we have the two drainage area maps. The one on top is the existing condition. And the one on the bottom is the proposed condition that you're obviously more concerned about. We have the north portion of the proposed roof going to a dry well in the front yard, and the whole site drains to Dartford. Nothing's draining to neighboring properties. It's all going out to the right of way. So the dry well is... PB Harmon Zuckerman, is capturing that increase so that even out to the right of way we don't we have a net zero differential PB Harmon

Yes, on the north, there's a little bit of a swale, not much. And even on the north property owners' property line, it's all kind of directing it to that north property line and bringing it out to the street. And then on the south, the proposed contours are kind of bringing it all along either that south property line or along the driveway out to the right-of-way.

Carolyn? As far as the plants are concerned, I think the choices were fairly decent. A little bit more natives would be great. But that's just an opinion. I had a question about removing the hackberry tree, a 30 inch tree. Is there no way to configure that patio or that back area? There's a covered patio and then another patio and then another area. There's no way to try to actually save that tree.

Well, it's going to be right in the middle of

another patio.

Yeah, but the basement walls are pretty nearby. So I have a feeling it's...

Okay, that was my main question on it. Yeah, that's really all I had.

No.

No questions either on the site.

questions, Steve. Thanks.

No. I think Eric did a great job draining the site and I think it's the way it came out. It's a lot of green space. It's going to be beneficial to the neighborhood. Okay.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted. I second that motion.

Aye.

Okay.

Okay, this is the architectural report for 21 Dartford Avenue. The proposed home has a generally rectangular design that is broken down through the use of projections and variations in roof lines. The building height is approximately 28 feet 8 inches. The property is surrounded by single family structures with the exception of Fontbonne University located to the rear. The majority of homes in the neighborhood and specifically along Dartford Avenue feature a front terrace. The recessed front entry with a raised terrace is a nod to this common feature, helping the residents blend with neighborhood context. The proposed house features an attached side-entry garage at the southeast corner of the structure. While rear entry and detached garages are most common in the neighborhood, the wider lot allows for an attached side-entry garage that does not visually dominate the site. The primary building material for the proposed home is a blended red and gray brick. The secondary materials are limestone and off-white stucco board. Two single car carriage style garage doors are proposed to be painted off-white to match the limestone accents. Staff believes that the plan is compatible in terms of mass height and design with surrounding structures, and our recommendation is to approve as submitted. That concludes my report.

We

Ooh, lugging in the heavy brick and limestone. So this is a house at 234 North Brentwood that the owners, the leakers really have... Oh, sorry. This is a photo of a house at 235 North Brentwood that owners find really attractive and would like to match the materials on this. That's why I brought in this photo. So you can see that the brick is going to be the sort of colonial pattern, red and gray. The trim will match the color of the limestone and we'll have limestone trim also. I think everything they said in the staff report is what we were trying to design for us to break up the mass of the house, create something that would sort of give back to the neighborhood with a front terrace and provide a lot of green space.

I tried on the side elevations. It'd still make them architectural. I know that sometimes that doesn't always happen, but it worked out in this way. Good.

I had a question about looking at the floor plan sheet A2.2. My question is more about the elevation, though. You have a balcony grate on the upper level in the front elevation. Why not replicate that on the other side? Is there a reason not to repeat that on the side of a bedroom?

So the Juliet balcony facing Dartford on the east side. It's not

really a balcony, though, like an actual functional

balcony. No, no. Well, actually, it's similar in this photograph. There's sort of a railing to it.

But it's only

inches.

Right.

That's why they call it a Juliet

balcony.

Yeah.

But is there a reason not to balance the-

Oh, on the other wing? Yeah. Well, my philosophy about it's not a totally symmetrical house. And I think if you balance it visually, you don't have to actually match it over there. So I thought that it still blended in OK.

That's OK. It was a question more than a .. That was all I had, actually.

Um, it's going to be, uh, I think close to about 7,500 square feet total with the basement, the first and the second 3,600 roughly. Okay. On A4, twice as wide, I'm sorry, as.

The other two houses.

As the neighboring houses, you said twice as wide. Well, those houses are on 50 foot wide lots and we're a hundred foot. And I mean, we're trying to not trying to maximize the size of the house, but that was just the program. You know, it's a five bedroom house, uh, And I think it fits with a lot of homes that are being built in Clayton that are five-bed or about that square footage. So we felt, you know, that, yeah, it is larger, but by breaking it up and keeping the height fairly similar and the finished floors are similar, that kind of blended in a bit. And Dartford, well, the first house is a fairly large house that's right on Y down. Well, yeah, the one with the wraparound porch. Oh, I didn't know that that's where the president, oh, okay, like the chancellor's house. Yeah, and no, I don't think there are any other houses of this size, but it's not, But I think as you look at the elevation, it is bigger but it's not like it's twice or three times the size of anything around there in terms of the massing. So it has a larger lot so we were able to make it a bit bigger. But I think to counteract that, we broke it down into different wings and added a terrace to sort of blend in with the neighborhood context.

Ellen.

Yes, I have a question. Why did you switch to limestone on the chimney for the screened porch? Everything else is brick.

Right. I do that quite often. And owners like to have sort of a more rustic feel in the back of the house. And it's a Edenstone sort of. a Ashlar pattern. So it's just making the fireplace sort of a focal point and it just highlights that focal point, but the color is still within the limestone family. So that was the idea behind it.

Okay, now it just caught my eye because the other chimney in the living room area, I believe it is, that is so prominent. And then you have on the same elevation, you can see the two chimneys and the columns of the screened porch are wrapped in brick. So it was just...

It was just an idea to highlight kind of the focal point of that whole piece and we're making a roof, doing parallel cord trusses there to vault the ceiling. And you know, we just felt like adding more brick because there's quite a bit of brick but it was just gonna maybe be a little too much terracotta color there and that would with the floor of the porch is gonna be a Edenstone type floor, et cetera.

Will the retractable screens be more transparent than what you've shown in the elevations?

Yes, they're gonna be kind of a charcoal gray, but they're clear view type screen so you'd be able to see through them. When they're down, you'll be able to see that

they're

gray, but

it's always kind of

hard to render a screen.

No, I think as Steve mentioned, you've done a good job breaking up the mass of the building and looking at the plot for the street that you've shown on page one of one, it is the largest lot. So yeah. No, good luck with it. And I hope the clients enjoy it.

I think they do. Jamie?

I think it looks really great. I do like, if I'm reading this right, that you're incorporating the dining room window from the existing house.

Yes, there's a bay window with leaded glass. I have it shaded on the-

Yeah, and it's going into the new dining room.

Right, so they're going to hopefully be able to salvage that. It's a wood frame piece. And then, yeah, we're going to install it on a new dining

room. Yeah, I think that's a very interesting thing to add to this house to kind of, again, hopefully incorporate it more into the neighborhood by those little touches. I think the brickwork, you know, all those little details and like, you know, the circular pattern even on the back of the house is really great. I mean, I think it is big and it will stand out for that, but I think the materials and the look you've chosen will help it blend in as best they can.

Thanks.

Ira? I don't have any questions, Steve. I like the house. It looks like a good, nice improvement. Thank you. Thank you. David?

No questions or comments.

Yeah, we went around with that. We've been working on these plans for over a year and the owners just, they don't have formal dining dinners that often. So they were like, it's okay if it's a little far away.

Yeah, that's right.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted.

Aye.

Okay.

Well, we're hoping probably another month and a half-ish or so, two months maybe.

Yeah, we're...

We're deep in that one, yeah. All right.

No.

Okay. The 10,080 square foot property is located on the east side of Crandon Avenue, mid block between Maryland and University Drive. The property has a zoning designation of R2 single family dwelling district and is located in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The project consists of the installation of a stone walkway and grass pavers in the front yard, as well as the installation of a retaining wall on the side of the home. A basement walkout is proposed for this side yard. The proposed stone material is bell guard urbana stone, which compliments the light beige and gray brick on the front of the home. The proposed retaining wall in the side yard, though not located in the front yard conforms to the ARB guidelines for front yard retaining walls. The proposed wall is a versalock wall and sandstone mosaic with concrete stairs leading to the proposed walkout. Impervious coverage in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District is limited to 40%. Additional incentives may be earned based on the location and design of the garage. As the existing garage is a rear entry garage, an additional 15% of impervious coverage is allowed for a total of 55%. The proposed project meets this requirement. The applicant is also proposing the removal of the existing Bradford pairs on the south side of the property and their replacement with columnar hornbeams. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed changes are compatible with the home and the surrounding neighborhood. And our recommendation is to approve with one condition to be addressed prior to issuance of the building permit, that a right-of-way use permit shall be obtained from the Department of Public Works for any work occurring in the city's right-of- way. That concludes my presentation.

Good evening.

How are you?

am Tom Dunn, yes.

No, I think Anissa is great.

The radius spent a lot of time with the customer on this with the dimensions and whatnot to make sure it was to their liking. In terms of materials, the grass paper is what they wanted to use to try to gain some permeability or some additional permeability. So we've got the grass papers as well as the bell guard permeable papers. So those are the two products are being

chosen. I can see where

That's part of the rationale, yes.

vehicles. It is tight but functional, yes. Okay.

At this point, it's not called for. We did not call for any edging material at this point. It'll just be the grass pave edger. That'll be the conforming sides.

not.

It will be,

that will be discharged at the edge or towards the rear of the property, if you look on the plan right there. I'm sorry, that will be discharged to the rear of the properties. I'm usually pretty loud too, sorry. Sorry. Yes, we have noted that right there at the top of the plan discharge from the sump pump.

does not.

Yeah. David grass pavers and other pavement that permeable pavement is not considered to be given any benefit for impermeability or permanent ability correct.

That's correct. It meets even if these, now you're fine, even if these were not permeable, it would, I mean, it meets. It's limited to the 55%, but the 55% is not reduced or swayed by the fact that these are permeable.

Okay. Thank you for that clarity. One concern I do have, if you ever go to Missouri Botanical Garden and all of their, well, at least parts of their parking lots, they have these pavers there. And when you look at them, when you drive on them, they're actually, they're sand and dirt. They used to be grass within the holes. If Mobot can't make it work, I'm a little worried that your client, the clients are gonna be a little disappointed.

I would have preferred all permeable paper as the client wanted to do the grass papers. I concur with your assessment.

At least they're concrete, not the plastic ones. They are concrete. Down wide out in the center that I trip over when I'm running.

They are concrete, that is, Bogart makes a nice concrete.

Okay, I just want to make sure because in that turn radius.

We agree.

Yeah, the turn radius, the cars that are going to be driving are going to be pushing them and knocking them. So they're going to crack, they're going to crumble, they're That's just my expert opinion as a landscape architect. I've tried this before many times, and it doesn't work. The other comment I have on that, what might help a little bit, is if your cross-section had less compaction, perhaps, of the earth below. Maybe there's a gravel layer underneath so that you can actually... I

think we just put in these specs, the manufacturer specs on this. But yes, I would be open to... Not incorrect, no. Something a little bit more

manageable. Yeah, three inches and one inch. It's going to just shift around

everywhere.

Okay, that was my only... The other comment was thank you for removing the Bradford pears. Because I drive out 44 and even anywhere now on the highway, out 40, you see them plopping. And everybody's like, oh, what pretty white flower trees. It's like, no, they're taking over. It's like the invasion of... the tree snatchers, you know? I mean, it's forest snatchers, I should say. So thank you for doing that. Happy to help. Yes, thank you. That's all I have.

Bob?

Yes, I have a similar concern about those grass pavers. They're, from what I see on the drawing, unless I Well, if I'm in a car and I've got a passenger and me, then one of us is going to be walking across the grass pavers.

It's very tight depending on, you know, if you notice we've got the drop-off area is where I'm hoping that parking occurs so that generally that large space right there, that's going to give enough room for that to occur. To your point, it is definitely tighter at the two radius points coming through there to avoid walking on the grass pavers. Having said that, the grass paver is still more solid than just grass itself, if you will, in terms of the way that functions.

But the fact that you have the two different surfaces underfoot and A man's foot can usually span it and they're not wearing high heels unless cowboy boots. For a woman, women's shoes leave much to be desired many times. But it's a reality that is a concern. But more than that, because if the owners do it to themselves, they'll have to live with it. is what it's going to look like. I mean, as Carolyn pointed out, MoBot hasn't been successful. The Masonry Institute on Big Bend, they were not successful. So unless you're going to be taking care of these little plots of grass, it concerns me that Clayton and the neighbors will be looking at mud.

The small amount of square footage that the grass pavers make up, the client assures me that they will be well-maintained. That's all I can offer. I personally will not be maintaining that, but that's the assurances I've been given.

Can I jump in a quick question or quick comment? One thing, have your clients look up a website called Steppables. It's a plant. Have you heard of it? You'll think you've heard of it. Okay, perfect. Some of that worked at the Cascades. We used it on the Cascades in Forest Park because you know everybody was climbing that without permission. So yeah.

Thank you.

Okay, nothing.

I appreciate your comments.

And

comment.

Thanks.

Tell me exactly where you're thinking so I can understand your

might preserve it a little bit more. Set this up. I don't think that's a problem, if that's what you're asking. Well, yeah. Yeah.

I will do so, yeah.

Ira, any comments? David? I do

not.

No comments.

I do. I do, sir.

I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation. Second.

Thank you all. Thank you.

Probably start in about six weeks. Wish us luck on the grass.

The subject property is located at the northwest corner of Maryland Avenue and Hanley Road with additional frontage on Linden Avenue. The site is currently developed with a religious institution and accessory structure. The applicant is proposing the installation of a ground-mounted sign in the southeast corner of the property near the intersection of Maryland Avenue and Linden Avenue. The proposed sign is 26 square feet in total area with 13 feet on each plane. There is an existing ground sign on the property near the Maryland and Hanley intersection, which will be removed in association with the request for the proposed ground sign. The proposed ground sign will depict the name of a single tenant, but is one square foot larger than the maximum allotment of 25 square feet. Per the city's sign regulations, the ARB shall have the authority to determine the appropriate location, size, or number of signs provided that the intent of the regulations is met. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed sign is compatible with the surrounding area, particularly given the large size of the site and the primary entry being located off of Linton and Maryland, away from the more visible corner of Maryland and Hanley. SAS recommendation is to approve the request for a ground sign with the following condition to be addressed prior to issuance of the building permit. The applicant shall submit a landscape plan for the ground area surrounding the site. I'd also like to note that the applicant did email me after the staff report went out with the landscape plan. That concludes my presentation.

Okay,

Good evening. Good evening, how are you?

Good, good.

Yeah, I just wanted to give you a little bit more background. It was mentioned, but we inherited a sign, sort of a kiosk sign at the corner of Hanley and Maryland that was there for the journey, the church that we bought the property from. And temporarily while we were going through construction up until now, we've been using that as our primary sign. What it does though is it attracts people to the wrong place. Visitors are walking around the building trying to figure out how to get in. front door to our building is on Linden Avenue. Also delivery people, same thing. They're walking around our building. We said, well, we've got to take that sign down and erect a sign that's at the corner of Linden and Maryland. So hopefully we'll orient people to the front of our building.

Well, living it, you know, when you move into a space and live in it, you learn a lot about it. And, you know, we're finally breaking out of the pandemic and we're using our building and living in it. And you see some of the problems with it.

Yeah, me too.

Yes. And I also put our address on there so people are familiar with what our address is. Yeah.

Oh, good.

Did you consider a curved sign that people could see from both sides, at least see part of it from both sides instead of two exact same things?

Well, this sign sort of is angled so you could see it from both directions.

No, I know. It just seems like it's two. And if you did one, you'd see at least part of the name.

Yeah, we were worried you wouldn't read it right from either side. So we want to make sure that you can read it from either side. And obviously the Maryland side is the most important for people to see because as you approach the building, you approach it usually from Maryland Avenue. Yes, thank you.

I don't know what you guys submitted for landscape plan. but with the colors of the sign, you could have a lot of fun with the base of that sign and designing that.

Well, right now we prefer, I mean, we have a landscape plan for the entire site, but in this particular place on this corner, it's mostly just grass. And unfortunately, a lot of our grass was destroyed by the city because they redid that corner. I don't know why they redid that quarter, but they built it up because it looked like there was a lot of erosion happening there. There's a real fall off on that corner. So we need to get grass growing there again.

That's all I had, otherwise it looks good.

Yes, thank you.

Helen. Yes, I have a question about the font that you used on the sign and I'm fine with the upper and lower case but why did you change from the font that is on the building?

The font that I'm showing here is the actual logo that I designed for Colrina, and it's the font that we use on all of our identity materials. The building font was primarily chosen by the architect. And the intent was they wanted to put a font there that could last for 100 years, just in case the logo 10 years from now, I am gone and a new graphic designer comes along wants to change the logo. It won't really affect what we do on the building. As you can see, the building has sort of a sans serif, very generic looking type font.

Yeah. But

that's a good question. I asked the same question, too, when I saw that sign going up. Like, why did they choose that font? It's just kind of a normal font. And they said they wanted something that would perhaps outlive the logo.

Okay. I would think and I would hope that your logo would outlive the signs.

I hope so, too, because I'm the graphic designer who designed the logo. And I hope that it would last. I also designed the City of Clayton's logo, and that's lasted for a while, over 20 years now.

Okay, no, it was just the difference between the two, and I didn't know if it was arbitrary, you know, a sign designer said, oh, this is what we'll go

with,

but you've spent time on it, so I'm good with it.

PB, Harmon Zuckerman, yeah and it was probably easier to fabricate to they did show it to me, you know before they put it up, and I said Okay, because at least they use the font that I use on all of our way finding signage within the building. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, So that part, it does match, but it doesn't match our logo font. PB, HarmonZuckerberg, Thank you.

me.

PB,

Montoya, I have no comment. PB,

Yeah, we submitted our landscape plan that Pat and I have put together for us.

I'll make it a motion to approve. Second.

Thank you, Steven. Appreciate the time. Thank you.

The 5,760 square foot site is located on the north side of Clayton Road, west of Crescent Drive. The property contains a 2,475 square foot single office building with a tuck under front entry garage. The applicant is proposing a series of changes in order to renovate the front facade along Clayton Road. The existing building is constructed of red brick with prominent white columns and white window frames and door surround. The existing columns and pediment are proposed to be removed, and the existing parapet will be expanded to the extent required to conceal the existing pitch asphalt shingle roof beyond it. The front entry garage will be redesigned to provide improved access and height, and the planter to the east of the garage is proposed for removal. To modernize the existing building, the applicant has also proposed to introduce black elements to the facade. A black prefabricated canopy is proposed over the front entry door, which will be painted black along with the transom. Black painted horizontal bands will be added to the facade with the top of the parapet painted black to match. The remainder of the facade will be painted in Sherwin-Williams aesthetic white with the north facade to be painted in the Sherwin-Williams pewter cast. Surrounding buildings are primarily constructed of brick and other masonry materials. Although the primary color and material of nearby buildings is red brick, this stretch of Clayton Road features a diverse color palette with some buildings being constructed from red brick and others comprised of varying shades of beige, gray, and white. The proposed color changes will be compatible with surrounding properties and will provide the subject structure with a more updated and clean appearance. Staff's recommendation is to approve as submitted. And that concludes my presentation.

No, I'm Justin Taylor. I own the building. Mr. Lawrence couldn't be here and he had sent in an email.

That's correct.

The main purpose for all of the changes that we're making is the current garage which would house about 10 vehicles beyond the parking that we have out back to the building. You cannot park any SUV downstairs. The overhang on the front of the building is too low. You can barely fit regular cars in the front of the to get to the garage. The pillars that are on the front of building that are non-load bearing sit above the access point of the building, which is what's causing us to try to make a lot of these changes to the building itself is so we can actually make that garage accessible for the vehicles. So we have enough parking for my real estate brokerage that's inside is the main reason that we're making a lot of these because what the overhang over that where the pillars sit. And so what would happen is trying to carry a load up, we would have to cut the beams almost in half and then try to match it on the other side of the building, which would produce a, we think a far worse look of the building. And it wouldn't solve the problem of what we're dealing with, which is accessing our garage. So we submitted the proposal to obviously, you know, considering they're not load bearing to be able to do that. And then also looking at other buildings on Clayton Road that were painted white. We, you know, Clayton Pilates Studio and there's another building up the road. We got some ideas from them to add some white and dark colors to our building.

Well, thank you for detailing the

Forcing all these, I don't... not thrilled to be spending the money that we're spending. We just renovated the whole inside of the building and the exterior of the building, if anybody's been past it is well past its due date. There's brick falling off of it. We have to rebuild all of the retaining walls out front. The current beds leak water into the garage. It's because the building's been very ill-maintained when I purchased the building and we're trying to get everything up. We just closed out all of our permits on the interior with Clayton two weeks, two or three weeks ago and just moved in. So.

but I think I've said enough.

This is a walking route for me. I go to Gladden Hair for my hair. I go to the nail place on Clayton Road for my nails. I go to Kitchen Conservatory down the road from this.

Two doors down from me.

Yeah, exactly. So I pass by this all the time. Um, I think it's a unique looking building. I'm not sure it, if it was designed and proposed to us right now, it would fit. And no, not what you did. Yes. If we give somebody came into here with the temple looking thing, it would be like, what's going on here.

But

I tend to agree with, um, on the flatness of the face, it seems like a little articulation would be great. I'm a little not clear what the color really is and why the back would need to be painted as well. But I just wonder if it's a little bit too stark with the color contrast. the white and the black, like maybe it could be something that's a little less stark and cold.

So a lot of what we're seeing, I mean, I sell real estate for a living, most buildings and homeowners and things, a lot of homeowners that we work with and stuff or currently like one of my owners that lives in Frontenac, one of my agents in Frontenac. They just finished, you know, I live in an all white ranch. People are putting black on their windows and putting the black trim on their roofs and everything to where it really ties everything together. One of the, looking at the Clayton Palladios, Palladio studio up the road, you can see it's white and black and it shows very well. It looks very nice. If I had my druthers about me in regards to the building, I would have a different exterior on my building, no doubt. This is obviously one of the downsides, the reason the building sat on the market for over a year and had numerous price reductions and nobody was interested in this building. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. I would prefer to have never bought a building with columns on the front of it. It's not my particular style and we're not, you know, all we're looking to do. I'm not a large corporation. I'm a small business owner here in Clayton. Like I said, I own a residential real estate brokerage and I sell houses for a living, it was a huge step for me to make. I've leased space in Clayton my whole entire life that I've been in real estate. And we are trying to find a solution. It is not necessarily a cheap solution by any stretch to make the building obviously something far beyond where it currently stands, which looks like an old bank or something that is from far beyond the times that we're currently living. Considering the building that's standing to the left of me as a flat facing building as well, That isn't a beige color we were trying to understanding, we would be standing here tonight before you guys. we're trying to make sure I mean we hired into your designers for the inside of our building and everything that we did in there is class a space to finish off the interior of our buildings new floors new everything to make sure it was a nice building for people to walk into. We want to do everything we can to conform and to make everything look as nice as we can on the front of the building. problem is, is even if you leave the building red and we try to match the brick, it's not going to match as we go up. And there's going to be grout lines and everything. So the building has to be painted. And the woman that did the interior design of my building is the woman that brought forth the colors for the exterior of the building and looking at what was around us as well. And it's not Again, I understand everyone, you know, I understand having a flat facing building, but it will match up right next to the building that's next to us and in line with it. And we are not taller than the building next to us. Although, as you had mentioned, sir, that the parapet wall or how the wall is going to be brought up PB, Harmon Zuckerman, Unfortunately it's about the solution, you know, one of the very few solutions that we see as a possibility to this building. PB, Harmon Zuckerberg, To be able to you know. PB, HarmonZuckerberg, Take care of the roof line because there's a pitch in that roof if it was flatter and that roof line was lower we wouldn't have that issue, obviously.

I think one of the things we might be reacting to with looking at this is that you have zero landscape shown. Yeah,

and the front wall's not done and everything else. And all of that, I wish I could show you what we've done and the amount of time that we spent on the interior of this building to bring it. We ripped out all of the bathrooms, made it handicap accessible, put in all new flooring, new HVAC. There's been over... close to $200,000 put on the inside of the building. The previous owner passed away on Highway 64 and his son left everything in the building. It was like a ghost walked out of that building when we got our hands on it and we had to haul out like five dumpsters worth of junk and stuff. You

found some treasures in that

though. Actually, the Creative Services Building, we're going to put up an article in our building about it and it was previously owned by a Cardinals player, but the Creative Services Building they used to do embroidery on a bunch of stuff. So there's a lot of Remingtons and things and really nice things in the building that we were able to give to charities and then give back to other places. But unfortunately, we were just kind of handed a mess.

Is there any way on the windows to keep the keystone and the detailing of that brick? Or is this a Photoshop rendering that just didn't get to detail? You

say the keystoning of the

little... In the center of the windows, these... When you look at it, there's detail that goes around. Okay, so it's just not showing. That's what I was asking. It's just Photoshop and yeah.

it does. It does.

Yeah, there's a detail on it. There's little sills underneath

A lot of those pieces were mentioned though. Well, I think we've been talking about what could

Yeah. Let's continue. We have. The windows on the building are black. In this window you're seeing, in this that you're seeing, they're white, but they are black now.

Like you've left the iron on the windows as well.

Yeah.

Do you have more, Carolyn?

No, I didn't. Thank you.

Tom? Justin. Ellen.

Okay, the third floor that Steve mentioned on the front facade, that bothers me. It's too heavy, it's too blank. What if you went to page CV.2A in the lower right corner where you see the side, the top side of the building and you took the front porch and cut it off maybe an inch and a half to say a number and left that profile and left the two parapets on the side and then took that profile, which is the existing roof as it goes back to the rear elevation. If you took and then came in with trim, working with your architect to do a neat trim, you would keep that line that would break that third floor. And you're not building up any more brick The taller parapet concerns me. You're going to spend a lot on structural stability of it. Just take off the porch, I understand that and I know you need access for the garage and the columns do date it but you've got the beginnings of a more contemporary building with the canopy over the front door. Then take, and if you did that triangular piece in a dark color, the colors don't bother me as much as the facade, what that looks like. but use that angle. It picks up some of the old, but it does it in a very contemporary way. Do you follow or am I?

Yeah, of course. Unfortunately, I'm not the design guys or the guys that actually work on the front of the building to say, yeah, that's a possibility, or I just don't know. I mean, as far as the- The whole porch, yeah. But

keeping the front that's behind the porch, which obviously comes this way and then this way at the parapets, but just take that shape down to the east and west walls and extend it out. It would give a little bit of shadow there. Use a couple of 2x6s, 2x10s, 12s. whatever you need to get something that doesn't look puny. But build it out maybe six inches or so, and it will-

You're basically saying cut the current building where we have it with the pillars, and you want to move it back a couple of feet, and then just leave the same front on the building as what you're- Yeah, leave

the front, but just keep... If you take off the front porch, you've got to shape this like this. right? And then you've got two parapet walls coming out on the sides above that. If you come back and trim out, trim pieces, build it out a couple of inches, then you've got that shape which breaks that whole third floor.

Are you saying that he should maybe consider keeping the same roof line?

Keep that roof line, yeah. Are you

saying to do this?

Yeah. But if you build it out a bit and give it more prominence.

Push it out. And darken

it.

Right.

Not keep the actual old facade, though.

Pardon?

I don't think you're saying keep the columns and keep Oh, no, no. Take that

off. Slice it off. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, you can take get rid of this. And just use what you've got.

No, no, no. I think I'm just... throwing out ideas and I think that would be cheaper than trying to do building up brick because parapet walls and good winds like we get are issues. And you've got snow and ice you've got to deal with as you build it up, you can trap more snow and ice and then windblown debris. And then the view from Crescent as people walk south You can see that your building is taller than the adjacent so I think it might be a less expensive solution, and I think it might look like a better you know end result for you. But it's yours. that's

i'm done

Okay, so I like that idea also um but if, for whatever reason, I I like the idea of removing the columns and cleaning up the front of that building I think that's a good idea, and if you need to like eliminate that you know little Romanesque feature on it, I just think. painting it slightly different than what you've shown might add a little bit more interest, you know, if you're talking about, well, first I would prefer it just to be brick, you know, not painting. Cause I think that would help with it staying kind of classic Clayton, you know, with your awning and even, you know, a couple of stripes, but leaving it not painted, but I can understand the concern of adding more brick and not being able to, you know, match it. But I wonder if, um, it's just a very stark, you know, black and white. And I can appreciate like what you were saying about, you know, houses and things like that going in that trend. But I just think there just needs to be a little bit more thought if you're going to go with kind of more of that flat facade than just like a couple stripes. I mean, I do like your idea though. I think that would add some dimension and some, just interest to the front of the building. And I think that unfortunately the Photoshop job doesn't do it justice. I know there will be texture with the brick and things like that. And then around the windows and such, but I think there's just needs to be a little bit more thought put into that, the front design of it.

In regards to what you were saying, as far as the front seems cost prohibitive to cut off the front of a building to move it back three feet. if we just carried the load off the front awning, if you guys want the front awning to stay on the building and I just carried, there's really not much of a load to it, but just carried a beam back to the side of the building to hold it up. Would that be sufficient for you? Because otherwise what we're talking about is cutting it off and then moving it back three feet and placing it on the building. It already sits there.

No, I wouldn't. I would just slice off the fourth.

So you're saying leave it. We're going to have to probably support it some way.

No, take off the porch and the columns.

Those are all going to be gone. I get that. But I'm talking about the triangle on the top of the building that you're talking about. I

would just do something that you can build up with a couple of two-bys.

So you're saying take it currently sits off the building like right now like this. So put something that can come down onto the building instead. Because that overhang by itself, right, sits out. And to me, it seems silly to cut it and then move it back a couple of feet to push it up closer to the building. You're not saying that. You're just saying re-support it, but not with

beams. In essence, you can do it with... some

two-bys, you know, nailed to the brick and build it out maybe a crown mold or something else so that it's not totally flat. It has maybe three, four inches of depth. Just some wood trim pieces. Look at some of the older homes and you'll see where they've done that. And it keeps a blank a wall from being totally blank. It pulls out and accentuates a roof line, but nothing more than a couple of two-bys flat against the brick.

Would you be opposed if we left the current? Because we're going to have to cut the roof line to do that. So just leave the roof line where it currently sits and then re-support it up against the building. Are you guys opposed to that? So I at least know when I talk to David, when we start to go over this, what our options may be.

A couple of feet out, yeah, where the beams come out, it's probably two to three feet.

do that, then I've got to, the minute we, if we were going to cut it back and lay brick, right, we were completely coming off with the whole front. But to cut it back, to then reface it the exact same way just for two to three feet, when I could just leave it and pull the beams out from under it and re-support it. To me, if we're talking about solutions and cost savings, it would be much more, if I could leave the roof line, if you guys like the current roof line of the building, the way that it currently sits, I'll leave it and then maybe put two type of beams back onto the building where it comes off the building a little bit. That way the roof line stays the same. We can do something different with the paint or do the colors up there that keeps the original structure. The only thing you guys are missing from what the building originally looked like would be the columns.

back. Yeah. You're

just leaving it as a peak. Even if you did it in brick, you just want it as a peak like that? And

So

Ira? Sorry, I was talking and I was

muted. But I like the comments made by our board. And I think they're all good comments. So I don't like painted. I've made that clear previous times, but otherwise I agree with the comments made. Thanks, Steve.

Thank you, David. Same concern that I think has been expressed by others and I'm certainly not a designer, but the white parapet above the windows is some sort of treatment. So I would agree with what's been said.

Okay, and in regards to the paint color because the minute I walked into the building tonight there was comments about the paint color up from people up here. Do I have to start looking at different colors to paint my building at this point. This gentleman Robert was mentioning he personally didn't like color of the building before the meeting even started I don't know if it's a personal decision, but we looked at the paints on clayton road. and what other buildings were painted when we started this to assume that we would be okay in getting that approved. Do I have to start looking at other paints too before I, when I come back? I just wanna make sure I understand what I'm walking back into next time.

PB, Harmon Zuckerman, Okay, and if we come back and we have the pitch that's on the front and we're looking at options for that for you with extra colors in it, regardless if they're black and it's more defined out is that something that. PB, Harmon Zuckleman, You know I guess where my confusion comes in as an owner, when I look in when I sell houses and I look somewhere and I say well the neighbor has a rod iron fence and it wasn't grandfathered in. PB, HarmonZuckerman, You know, and it's in you know everything you can have a rod iron fence in the subdivision. as long as it goes through. It's usually what I'm telling my homeowners and it's on the stuff. Is it a color that would be approved with your board?

Okay. Can I ask you a question? Is gray a more preferred color?

Well, can I interject here?

Sure.

I actually don't think that we can say you can't paint it white, frankly, because there are other buildings painted white. I don't think that's our... on this board to say that. I think what we're mostly objecting to is the flat facade. So we don't want to take away from somebody's huge design intention if it's elsewhere in Clayton. Clearly, it is. So you might come back. One of us might be ill that day or something. You might come back with pictures of the other buildings that are white. That typically helps to stay. I think most of our objections were more about the, maybe it's almost the Photoshop, frankly, and the pitch of that roof in the third floor addition is what I'm hearing mostly that is objectionable. But it might be speaking for everyone, and I don't want to do that.

Okay, and when do we have to have in stuff for the next application to make your next meeting.

I could take it as late as a week from now

I make a motion that we table this discussion until the next meeting. Second.

No comment. Nothing further to add.

Are you kidding me? I love him. Why, why, why? So

you're going to the show or you're on the show?

Oh God, that would have been so much fun. Maybe he'll have an audience thing and you just have to be... That's wonderful. What fun.

shown? No, they're just going to be

That's the place to do it. Congratulations. That's fun. We'll

or that night, we watch it every single night. So I have nothing, no, I have nothing else except for that it's nice to be here in person again.

Anything further Steve? Thank you so much.

I don't have anything for this evening.

Um, no, just we have some big keys coming up. So just look for those on the upcoming agendas and I'll keep you updated.

Yes.

See you soon.