March 7, 2022 — Meeting Transcript

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Planned Commission ARB for Monday, March 7th. Anyone in the audience that wishes to speak on an agenda item, please raise your hand and you'll be let in at the appropriate time. Let's start with the roll call.

Chairman Steve Lichtenfeld?

Here.

David Gipson?

David Gibson?

Here.

Helen DiFate? Here. Carolyn Gatiss? Here. George Hedeck?

Helen DeFate? Here. Carolyn Gatiss? Here. George Hedeck?

Here.

Ira Berkowitz? Robert Dunlow?

Okay, thank you. We have minutes from the previous meeting on February 23rd. Are there any changes to the copy you received? Seeing no hands, do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes.

I'll second.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay, thank you. Let's move on to new business and that's 804 DeMunn Architectural Review of Public Art.

The subject property is located at the southeast corner of the intersection of demand avenue and rosemary avenue the proposal consists of a mural along the southern facade of the existing brick building. measuring approximately 33 feet in width and 23 feet in height, Robert fishbone of on the wall productions Inc is both the applicant and the artists of the proposed mural. fishbone is a local mural artists with several decades of experience, including several murals in the St Louis area. The proposed mural features a bee perched on a swing with flowers and loose skies visible in the background. Protocol for the approval of public art is for the Public Art Advisory Committee to review and make recommendations to the ARB regarding specific art pieces. The Architectural Review Board has the final decision. The PAAC has reviewed the mural and recommends approval. Staff is of the opinion that the location and design of the proposed mural will complement the area and recommends approval as submitted.

Okay, thank you. Is

the applicant here?

Yes, the applicant is here. My apologies.

I'm going to move over both Robert and Jeff Fiennes.

Okay. Thank you. Who's

worked on this project as well.

Okay. Good evening. I see... Robert Fishbone and Jeff Vines. Who would like to speak first?

I would like to speak, first. Okay. I'm Robert Fishbone. I'm the owner of On The Wall Productions. First of all, thank you very much for being in attendance, allowing me to speak about this project. First of all I need to ask, have you all received the PDF that we produced about the project? Yes. Okay. And I'm assuming you've had time to at least glance through it?

Yes, we've had it since earlier, since late last week.

Okay, terrific. And I'm just curious, did anybody also go over to our website to get a more in-depth overview of what we've done?

Yes. But I go all the way back to Lindy Square downtown, so I've seen quite a bit of it.

You remember Lindy Square?

I do.

Very nice. It's always... quite a thrill when somebody goes, you did Lindy Square? Shows my age, our age. So I say that with all due respect. So just quick history. I did murals for a long time with my late wife, Sarah Langquist. I stepped away from murals to do two other completely different things. And then in 2015, my daughter very, I don't know, cannily wrote me back into doing murals again because she wanted to learn how to do murals, like graduate level. And we entered a competition and we were one of 20 teams that entered and we won. It was a mural that's on the side of the KDHX building. And that launched us into a new collaboration. My old school, she's a street artist and we have this clash. But being father and daughter, you know, we get over it quick and we've come up with really designs that we're very happy with and the clients have appreciated and the local populations also have enjoyed. So the way this project came to be, Jeff Vine, who's also on the line, he was a client of ours in the Cherokee district. And we made quite a visual statement there, which is what was needed in that corner. And he lives in Clayton and he always looked at that wall and said, well, that wall could use a mural. So two years ago, he independently a design in the hopes that someday it might become a mural. And that's where we are now. We've done the design, and like we said, the Public Art Advisory Committee approved it. And now it's up for your review and potential approval. And I'm here to answer any questions you might have that may not have been addressed in the PDF.

OK, thank you. Jeff, do you have anything to add?

I think he covered most of it. I've lived in the DeMunn neighborhood since 2017, spent a lot of time in DeMunn Park over the years with my daughters and my wife and their friends. And that wall always screamed at me, and it seemed like it was begging for a mural. And, you know, this... Daman is such a complete urban neighborhood, but the one thing missing is like a public art component. And I know how transformative the mural on our building on Cherokee Street has been and it really has become a landmark. And I have no doubt that the same would be true here in this location. And it really would be an identity builder for the neighborhood. So I'm very excited about it.

Well, thank you. I think many people in Clayton are excited about it. Those of us on the ARB have received email letters that attest to the value of having it put up. Personally, I agree with that. I think it will be a real identifier for the demand area. And I'm I really enjoyed Robert Fishbone's presentation that shows it from a distance. Having taken my grandchildren to that playground fairly often, it really needs something on the wall. But as you drive or walk down, DeMond Avenue, I think this will really set a grand opening to it. The color, the whimsy, the activity that it's promoting, I think will be a great addition. But let's go around and see if there are any other comments. Helen?

No, I think Steve, you've said it all. I love seeing artwork and that large when I have out of town guests come the I always include the I call it the graffiti wall the flood wall you know it's something that it's vibrant it's exciting it's there's an energy to it so I think it's a great idea I love the idea of the bee on the swing, I guess. And two, I'm glad to see that there is money for maintenance because that's always something that the flood wall, that gets painted over and someone else comes and does something. But this is not that. So we want to be sure that it is maintained. And I thank the owner of the building for writing a letter saying that he approved it, he was all for it. And obviously, the legal aspects would need to be worked out. But I think it's great.

Bob?

I think it's great. Robert, you've been a great asset for St. Louis and Jeff, I've known you a long time and what you've done for St. Louis, uh, the vision to make, to get this rolling is, is just a great compliment to you. And the only thing that I could say, I'll really safeguard my most famous asset in the neighborhood, the candy store next door. So, uh, I can only thank you for that. Um, anyway, uh, really my hats off to both of you guys and, uh,

Thank

you. George?

I have no further comments on it. I've been involved in this for a while. Thank you. Carolyn?

I agree with everything that has been said already. I wanted to ask a question about, as I look at the images, obviously you have butterflies and bumblebees and things like that. Is there any plans to change out the landscape that's close by to actually attract pollinators and things? So kind of would be a nice play against the landscape and the wall, the things on the wall.

So that's a great point to raise. I had a discussion with a good friend of mine, Jean Ponzi, who works at the Botanical Garden. Yeah,

yeah,

I

know

her. Okay, and she is always saying, so where's the pollinator garden going to go? So that's something that we would have to speak to Tony Searing and Justin Whipple from Parks and Rec, they're very aware of the project. They're aware of the need to move the shrubs for sure, possibly move the tree. And if we wanted to plant something like on one side or the other of the fence, that would be up to Clayton to do that kind of thing. I do Yeah,

I think you could do some low pollinators that wouldn't block the mural or things like

that. No, for sure.

Absolutely. It'd be really neat. But yeah, kudos to you guys.

Thank

you.

Thanks. David?

I don't have anything additional. It looks like a great addition to the neighborhood.

Well, before we take a vote, I wanna thank you for bringing a fun project to our commission. It's nice to see one like this every so often. So we appreciate it.

Robert? Yeah, I just wanna say a couple other things briefly, three things. So one is that my daughter who's an amazing artist is my partner. She's actually the lead artist and she would of course be here. She lives out of town but she comes here every summer and we paint murals together. And just so you understand a little about our process, you know, a lot of people when they think about doing a mural, they're looking at the wall. They're looking at the world. But one of the things we do is either stand on top of the building or with our back to the wall, close our eyes for a few seconds and open them up. And it's like, what does the wall see? what is the wall seeing in this neighborhood? And even though I did a lot of research, it was like a playground. There's a playground here. And what was the last thing? Oh, that's enough.

I think the whole process will be interactive. And I think the residents and the people walking by are really going to enjoy watching it come together.

Right, that was the other thing I was gonna say. We're very approachable when we do projects and to watch us, especially my daughter paint for probably a couple of weeks, you know, the kids are gonna really go nuts watching this happen right in front of them. You know, it's not often that you get to see artists work and a lot of murals, a lot of work we do is either really big or it's in an area where we don't have quite as much foot traffic. This is a very residential setting. People will be able to see from the apartment building across the street We're very excited about that, about being able to interact with the public on one of our projects.

Will you publicize when you'll be actually doing the work?

PB Harmon Zuckerman, Oh yes, for sure. Well, and we also have to work with the city because we're going to be using probably a boom scaffold lift PB Harmon Zuckerton, That we parked in the street. And while we're working that little bit of the sidewalk can be blocked off. So there'll be a lot of advanced notice we may even have. There was some talk about having a public meeting about the project, you know, where people could come. Not sure if that will happen. But yes, people will certainly know what's going on.

Okay. Any other comments from anyone on the commission or the board rather? We do have a staff recommendation to, uh, approve as submitted. Mr. Chair,

really quickly. There is a hand up in the attendee list.

Could we let that person in?

Absolutely.

Okay, it looks like Randy finds me. I'm Jeff finds his twin brother, and so I don't want to be too redundant I just want to just express my gratitude for for the contributions that Robert and Liza have made to this city in the form of public art that that hopefully will outlast all of us. Nothing screams this is a neighborhood worth caring about than beautiful, vibrant artwork that adorns an otherwise mundane or ordinary building facade. And this is a no-brainer in my view. I'm a relatively recent resident of Clayton after living 20 years in the city. I've really... just grown very fond of all the public artwork that abounds around the city. And I'm so happy to see it spreading a little west to Clayton. So kudos to all. Thank

you for your comments. Any other hands up?

George? Yes, I'm sorry. I do want to point out that this mural moving forward is a President upon CCF Clayton Community Foundation raising the money to get it going

Okay So do we have a time schedule for the funding of it or any other thing So

Jeff, did you want to say something about

that? Well, we've been in touch with Alex from CCF throughout this whole process. And I think contingent on this vote is when it would kick off the fundraising phase. And he seems pretty confident that we will raise the funds necessary. I know we do have a desired timeline because there is some prep work that is necessary to get it ready for painting. So Robert, were you thinking maybe April for the tuck pointing and smooth? Yeah,

I think it all depends on the fundraising. It might go really fast. Alex was very encouraging. Yes. And eager to see the project be funded. Ideally, our timeline is tough pointing by the end of April. It can cure and then we paint end of May or beginning of June. We expect it to take two weeks.

Okay.

Well, we hope that it all goes on that schedule so we can see it in reality as soon as possible.

Yes.

Thank you. Any further comments? No? Well, as I said, we do have a recommendation from the staff to approve as submitted. Do I have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted Second

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay, you're on the way. Get CCF moving. And we're looking forward to it. The weather's getting better. Thank you all so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for coming tonight. You're welcome. Have a great one. Okay. Well, that takes care of our new business for tonight. And now we have other business. And this is a discussion to be led by Helen on the non-conforming uses in Article 4 of the Land Use Code. Right, Helen? If I got it right.

Yeah. Okay. I will share my screen.

And again, I do have to drop off at this time. Good seeing you all. I'll see you in two weeks. Okay. Thank you, George. Take care, George.

Are you frozen? It

again, all the way at the left under slideshow will be from slideshow from beginning.

Yeah, I'm trying to get rid of it. It's telling me there's an issue. I've got too many applications.

Okay, from the beginning. Ah, okay.

Okay, Chapter 405 Zoning Regulations, Article 4, Nonconforming Uses. Sounds really simple. You know, nonconforming, it doesn't fit, it doesn't meet up with the requirements well it comes about because as the zoning ordinance is adopted amended change what has been lawful becomes prohibited in essence non-conforming so this is i would consider it kind of a housekeeping section that um What do you do with non-conforming until it conforms, if it ever does? Well, basically the ordinance says you may continue until it is removed. The non-conformance is removed, but you can't extend, expand, enlarge or increase in intensity. So if a small part is non-conforming, It needs to stay just that, unless you bring it into conformance. It applies to structures, land uses and lots. And the section considers, it breaks it down into non-conforming structures and conforming uses. Non-conforming structures with a conforming use. if it's a nonconforming structure and a nonconforming use, that's it. You can't do anything. If it's a non-conforming structure but it has a conforming use, which might be a house where the house is 40 feet high and the zoning requires a maximum 35 foot height. So the height would make the structure non-conforming. It can remain, you can enlarge it, maintain it, repair it or remodel it. But again, you may not increase the non-conformity. What you can't do is move it unless when you move it, the whole structure becomes conforming where you have put it. Any questions?

Okay.

After dealing with structures, you come to non-conforming uses. Non-conforming uses of the structure or of the land. Now, if it's just the structure, you're allowed to continue. You can do repair and maintenance. You can change it in its use to conforming. And that historically, you can always change to become conforming to do what you're supposed to do. That's generally allowed. What is prohibited for a structure that has a non-conforming use would be to expand that use, to remodel it unless you're making it conforming. You can't move it unless you make it conforming. Even if the addition is conforming, you can only put that addition on if You make the existing conforming. If you abandon or discontinue the use of a non-conforming use, you have a structure that is a retail shop, retail store in a residentially zoned neighborhood. You can't abandon the use or discontinue it, and then come back a year later, a year and a half later, and say, oh, well, I'm moving another store in here. No, if you abandon that use, the non-conforming use, or you discontinue it for whatever reason, after a year, that use must conform. A nonconforming accessory use, that ends, that must become conforming as soon as the primary nonconforming use disappears. So there's a number of things that you can't do with a structure with a nonconforming use. If you have land that has a nonconforming You can continue with the non-conforming use, or again, you can change it to conform. For the land, you can't expand that use, enlarge or extend that use. And if you had a parking lot in a North Bemiston in Old Town, the 100 block, and That obviously is a nonconforming use. If you had only used half or a third of that land for parking and you wanted to expand it because parking's in high demand, it could be quite profitable. You are not allowed to expand that nonconforming use Questions? Given that we do have natural and man-made disasters, fire, earthquake, tornadoes, flooding, the section takes that into account. If the damage from a natural or man-made disaster is 60% or more of the replacement value It must be restored to conform. So there's a point where building it back to what it was non-conforming is not allowed. If the damage is less than 60% of the replacement value, then it can be restored with that non-conforming use and in its non-conforming state, but you need a variance from the board of adjustment. So there is, it's a fine line where that 60%, you know, you're talking numbers, numbers and reconstruction. If you're going to, if the damage is less than 60%, then, It's quite reasonable that a variance needs to be issued by the Board of Adjustment. Someone objectively needs to look at

it. Who decides the replacement value?

It doesn't get into that. And I think that's why the variance, the required variance is plugged in so that you do because You can only have the most expensive contractors look at it or the cheapest look at it. As the owner, you can control who was giving you prices. So there is no... requirement that it must be done by in such and such a format and by so many bidders or anything like that. And quite honestly, when the building codes say if the cost is more than such and such, then it must be ADA compliant. It's still, it's a judgment call. Of course, damage done intentionally by the owner or on behalf of the owner. Then your right to continue the nonconformity could be lost. It's interesting that the section says it might be lost. It doesn't say it is lost. And I don't know the reasoning there.

Helen, can we go back to the previous slide just very quickly on the 60%? So usually in practice, staff, if they get an application for, let's say, to replace or to repair a damaged structure, and if they believe that it's 60% or more of the replacement value, then they'll make that initial request. they'll make that initial determination. But Helen is right. Questions about nonconforming uses, whether a nonconforming use even exists and or whether a structure enjoys nonconforming status or whether it's been expanded or enlarged and all those kinds of questions, they do go to Board of Adjustment. Any questions about non-conforming uses? So if staff makes the, or if it gets up to P&Z or to the plan commission and the plan commission believes that it's more than the 60% and they deny the plans or if staff says, no, this is more than 60%, you can't do this, then it does go to Board of Adjustment. And as far on the next slide, the rationale, I believe that the rationale for that is that they don't want the owner to circumvent the limitations on non-conforming structures by damaging the structure just to be able to perform some major repairs.

Yeah,

it's... hard i appreciate your explanation stephanie because i know it's hard to put into a section in a zoning code or an ordinance all of that information and to cover everything that could happen you've got to cover it generally okay Thinking about this, I thought an example might be interesting. And this actually happened to a lot structure in Old Town. And a lot is non-conforming. The structure was a non-conforming structure with a conforming use. Now the zoning allows one and two family residential use. This section 405.430 allows you to enlarge and remodel, but again, you may not increase the existing nonconformity or create additional nonconformity. So looking at it, the existing is a non-conforming lot. It's 40 feet wide and the lots are required to be 50 feet in order to build. The structure is non-conforming because no structure is allowed to be built on that lot. So whatever is built, it's not a conforming structure. The use, however, is conforming It was two family residential. The intent was to demolish the existing structure and to build a new, you know, larger single family, more up-to-date house. However, that was not allowed. And you go back to it's a nonconforming lot. and a nonconforming structure with the conforming use. So 405.430 allows you to remodel without increasing the existing nonconformity or creating additional, and the existing nonconforming use could remain and the structure could be remodeled. The solution was to do extensive remodeling keep the conforming use i mean that's what the purchaser the new owner the developer wanted to do uh to build a single family house so it still remains a non-conforming lot and the structure still is non-conforming but the use remains conforming. So as long as that stays within the bounds of this section of the zoning regulations, then that house on that lot can exist for as long as anybody wants. So it's an interesting section. It takes several readings to sort it out and to organize it and to realize that it talks about a certain kind of structure, the non-conforming structure with the conforming use. And then it talks about non-conforming land uses as well as uses of structures So it's probably the best that exists to address a situation that will always exist. Change will always make something non-conforming. So with that, any

questions?

TAB, I don't really have a question I just wanted to jump in and kind of say where i've seen nonconformity has happened the most. TAB, Around concordia those neighborhoods especially along alamo where you have a lot of old detached garages. TAB, Those are all built on the property lines and some cases exceeding in the rear currently we have accessory structure requirements that mandate that those are five feet from the property line. And we have been approached by people who would like to significantly expand their garage since these are normally smaller garages. And of course, that would not work because it would be furthering that nonconformity. So just wanted to give you a bit of an example of what I typically see or what I think of when I see this

section. So that's it. Good job, good job. Thank you.

That was actually very clear. as opposed to what to me seems very legalese when we read the code section itself. So I appreciate seeing that in print and hearing it also. And thank you, Anissa, for giving that real life example. And I would imagine that we probably have that occurring in many areas within the city.

Yes. My own garage is... probably about three feet. Actually, it's probably two feet from the property line, but the condos behind me did a spread footing for the foundation. So the footing is on the property line, that I have an extra foot of breathing room behind my garage. And quite honestly, It's needed to maintain it. I mean, there's no material that does not need maintenance. In my case, it needs to be painted because it's redwood siding which should have never been painted but someone in their wisdom did. So yes, the five foot requirement makes sense because if you've got to get a ladder or scaffolding it can be almost impossible and then you've got to look to the other side to access your building your structure to maintain it which can create problems depending on what they've done on their side of the property line So, yeah, there's a

good reason.

In our neighborhood, we had one several years ago where a neighbor constructed an outdoor fireplace right on the property line. And when it was found out, they had to relocate it. I believe it was within the outside of the five foot setback. And of course, they weren't happy with it, but they had to do it. So I'm sure if we walk around or talk to people, there'll be many other non-conforming issues that have either occurred or will occur in the future. So thank you, Helen. That was good. Well, thank you. Anissa, do we have additional educational coming up? Let me see.

I don't have any in mind for the next meeting. I'll have to take a look at it and get back to you on that.

Okay. The only one I don't have checked off is the Special Development District, or did we do that?

I believe that one is Ira's, so that would be the last one left.

Okay.

That's correct.

Okay. Well, let's go around the room if there are any comments. Ellen?

No, nothing further. I've said all that I have to say this evening.

Okay. Carolyn?

No, I don't have any comments. Good to see you all.

Bob? No comments and thank you, Helen.

You're welcome.

David?

Just want to say thanks for the discussion last meeting on the PUD requirements or the PUD point system and the proposed changes from the Equity Commission. I did watch the video and received the feedback on it. Sorry, I couldn't attend. I ended up having a conflict with the meeting on a Wednesday night, but thank you all for your consideration on that.

Okay. Bob, did I ask you?

already asked me, but I can repeat if you like. No comments.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Anissa?

Just wanted to say that we will be moving to a hybrid video PC meeting format. I'm not sure yet if that will be the very next plan commission or if it will be the one after, but still working out the technical details of that, but it'll allow you to attend through zoom or attend in person and same for members of the public

okay are we going to terminate uh zoom meeting for uh members is that what you're saying

not terminating any members um i think i like all of you so no no no no no

i mean are we going live back in city hall

You will have the option to. So, the technology is set up that you can come in person or you can attend via Zoom and it'll work that way for the public as well. So, it's up to what you're comfortable with and what your preference is. Okay.

Well, I assume we'll get a notification from you, Anissa, or you, David, as we're ready to move into that?

Yes.

Correct. Okay, thank you. Stephanie?

I don't have anything further this evening.

Okay. And Laurie, do you have any comment? I would say thank you for doing the meeting minutes now.

There

was

a question in chat. Did it get answered?

I just took care of it.

Thank you. Well, we'll look forward to seeing everyone two weeks from tonight. Anissa, any words of wisdom? What might be coming?

No, nothing further.

Okay. Thanks, everyone. And thank you, Helen, for the educational experience. And we'll see you all in a couple weeks. So stay well.

Thank you all. Take care.