January 4, 2022 — Meeting Transcript

All right. Assuming I leave in one hour, do you still have a quorum to continue your

work? Four is a quorum. Okay. Okay. We're live now. So good evening, everyone. Dave Kuntz, Welcome to the plan Commission a RB for January 4 2022 if you're an attendee and you wish to speak, please raise your hand on your computer phone or whatever device you're using. Dave Kuntz , let's start with a roll call.

Karen Hollweg, He looked

himself.

Dave KuntZ,

Here.

Karen Hollweg , Here. Karen Hollwig, here. David Gipson, George Hedich, Ira Berkowitz.

Karen Hollweg , Here. Karen Hollwig, here. David Gibson, George Hedich, Ira Berkowitz.

We have two sets of meeting minutes from December 6th and December 20th. On December 6th, are there any changes?

Actually, I just had one comment. It says under Ira on page 2, HAB-Masyn Moyer- I just wanted to add that I actually was I actually suggested the etching the sign into the concrete that was not put into the meeting minutes and it sounds like IRA came up with it, he liked it, but I I just was a little. HAB-Marsyn Moyer- It doesn't really matter, but I just wanted to make note of it Okay, thank you.

Any other change? Oh,

hi, Ira. Hi, Steve. Carolyn is correct. I believe I had heard it from her and I wanted to make sure it was clear that I agreed with it and wanted to see it also occur.

Thank you. If there are no further changes, do we have a motion for the December 6th meeting?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of December 6th.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Okay. Let's move on to the December 20th meeting. Any changes there? No. Hearing none, do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from December 20th.

Second. All in favor? Opposed? Okay, thank you everyone. We can move on to new business now. The first item is 6451 Clayton Road. Anissa?

This is the consideration of a conditional use permit for the operation of a restaurant to be known as Fresh Healthy Cafe. The applicants are requesting a CEP for this restaurant at 6451 Claydon Road. The property is located at the northeast corner of the intersection of Clayton Road and Seminary Place. The property has a zoning designation of C2 General Commercial District and is located within the Clayton Road Urban Design District. The property is currently developed with the DeMunn Point Mixed Use Building. The proposed restaurant will occupy approximately 1400 square feet of the building. It's a fast casual restaurant with an emphasis on healthy food. The restaurant will have a total of 28 seats with 14 seats to be located indoors and 14 seats to be in the proposed outdoor dining area, which is currently a landscaped area. The applicant has also submitted an ARB application in conjunction with the conditional use permit application for the landscape to patio change. In terms of compatibility, the proposed use is compatible with surrounding uses, it is Excuse me, it is an outdoor dining area adjacent to Clayton Road and will not have an impact on residential properties to the north. At this time staff does not anticipate adverse effects with respect to water runoff, noise transfer or heat generation. In terms of landscaping, the proposed outdoor patio will result in the loss of the existing landscape space. However, the other three landscaped areas will remain and the applicant has proposed planter boxes around the perimeter of the space. Staff is of the opinion that the landscaping is adequate given the amount of landscaping that will remain on the site. For the city zoning code, restaurants located outside of the central business district must provide off street employee parking. The proposed restaurant will provide two spaces for employees within the existing parking garage. Staff does not anticipate any adverse noise, lighting or odors. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed restaurant meets the requirements contained in the regulations governing conditional uses. Our recommendation is to approve the conditional use permit with the following condition. One, should the restaurant cease operations, the property owner agrees to restore the outdoor seating area to landscaping, which is comparable and compatible with the existing planted areas along Clayton Road. And that concludes my presentation for this CUP.

Okay, thank you. Brian Nickus, do you have a response? If so, please unmute yourself.

Hello there. I do not have a response. I think on behalf of Rick Hetzel, the hopeful owner of this lease space, and Matt, the owner, I think Anissa nailed it. Anissa did on her comments and the recap of what we're going for there.

PB Harmon Zuckerman, Okay, thank you. Of course we're talking about the CU P the conditional use permit right now and that would allow this proposed restaurant to go in where there was another restaurant in that facility. PB Harmon Zuckerton, I think it's a good idea. It looks pretty good. But let's see if there are any other comments. PB Harmon Zickerman, Carolyn.

I didn't have any other comments. I'm glad to see it going in. The comments I have has to do with landscape, which I believe is the next item on the agenda. I have no other comments.

I have a curiosity, Brian. Is this a national chain? I saw one in Cape Girardeau, but I didn't see one anywhere else.

They're based out of Canada. Rick actually has us on the But I actually got another developer in the area got me referred over to Rick since I had some restaurant experience in that. So we've kind of, you know, developed a relationship that way through him and touring that building down there right now with the first one where he's in a hospital and then the second one that's going to be a drive-through. So we're just going to kind of get familiar with the whole process of what they do. Okay. Thank you.

Helen?

Yes, I have a question about the seating. In the application it says 14 inside and 14 outside, yet on the drawing submitted it shows 20 outside and 12 inside. Which is it?

A knee side? I wasn't sure if he that because I haven't seen the online form. I thought he was going to revise it, Rick, to match to match our the new let's see.

I spoke with Rick and it's 14 inside, 14 outside. The drawings should have been updated but we're not in time.

Okay so yeah we're

Karen Hollweg, Okay, then it would be the 14 and 14. Karen Hollweg, OK. Karen Hollweg , that's fine it looks good I think it's a great idea. PB John

Gerstle, Right, thank you. PB

Harmon Zuckerman,

Ira.

Yeah. Hi, Brian. I actually ate at one of these places in Cape Girardeau when I went to get my vaccine some months ago. Very good. Excellent food. Took me a while to find it. It was in the hospital, as you say. And it surprised me that it was there. But anyway, good stuff. Good, good place. I guess I have a, maybe a question or two about the volume and what kind of, you know, how many cars do you think would be coming up to it and where would they go?

As far as, I mean, I think he's relying a lot on the hospital and foot along the road there, but I think he loves the location obviously because of the heart of where it's at basically.

All right. Yeah, no. Okay. Appreciate

it. David? I

don't

have any questions.

Okay. Brian, are you and the owner agreeable with the condition put into the report?

Yes, in regards to the seating.

Restoring the outdoor seating areas to landscaping. Oh, yes. If they cease operation.

Yes. Without Matt being here and just acting on behalf of them, if that's what needs to happen, I would say Matt's on board with that. He's the building owner.

Okay. Any other questions? from the commission? No. Do we have any hands up in the audience?

We do not.

We do not, okay. Well, we do have a staff recommendation to recommend approval of the CUP to the Board of Aldermen. Do we have a motion to that effect including the single condition?

I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Brian, that will move on to the Board of Aldermen now. And we can move on to item number two.

This is for the ARB at the same address, 6451 Clayton Road. The proposed patio area will measure approximately 478 square feet in size. The existing landscaping will be removed, but the red brick 28-inch height planter walls will remain. The patio is proposed to be constructed of a four-inch concrete slab over a crushed rock base. Black metal chairs and tables will be provided in this space for the purpose of outdoor dining along with green umbrellas. The patio area includes black polymer planters 19 inches in height, on the north, east and west sides. Landscape plantings for the proposed polymer planter boxes are noted in the provided plans and feature a mix of annual and perennial plantings. While the patio does result in the loss of one landscape planter area, the proposed polymer boxes around the perimeter provide soft buffering of the outdoor dining use. Staff is of the opinion that the materials and colors of the proposed patio are compatible with neighboring properties and our recommendation is to approve as submitted. That concludes my presentation.

Thank you. Brian? Yes, you're still here. Any comment on the ARB review? I do not have any comments. Okay. I do have a question. If I'm reading the drawings correctly, there are two public entrances, one on the east and one on the west side. Is that correct? Correct. So there's nothing on the south-facing face of the window wall. That is correct. Okay. How do you direct people to those doors?

I am not sure yet if he is going to just have one way or flow of traffic to get in line. I believe as of right now, he can use both of them for in and out. I don't know anything really past that. And if you look at... We printed out this other set that his actual... Guys that come up with the design, then we take and put it into the construction documents and that. But they came up with a layout where like the menu boards are on the right side. The plans kind of flip sideways, but if you're going off of my plan, the right door would be the closest to where the menu boards are to order. So that could potentially maybe just be the end if you wanted to go that route and the other one be an exit. any way you look at, I believe as far as code, there's going to be less than 50 people in here, uh, 49 or less only requires one exit. Um, so I, I think even if you wanted to, um, completely lock the door, make it an emergency only he could, um, unless that's, you know, something that the board doesn't want to, they want to see it flexible to come in either way. Um, But the seating along the window, it's pretty well symmetrical. I mean, there's only like six seats in here or not with the booth there basically. So I don't think it really matters coming in either way depending on where people sit there if it would hinder any of that.

Well, hopefully there'll be enough patronage that both doors will be in use to keep people moving in and out.

I know they in us. Sorry, I mean, to cut you off in a lot of this too is going towards obviously you see this at Panera where it's grab and go and phone in orders. I think I think he's hoping a lot of that that keeps going that direction. we got is to have a couple rows of like shelving there where people are going to have grab and go as well so maybe that's one of the doors um where people come in and then other ones mainly more where people are standing and ordering so um he hasn't really gone over all that yet with me like we we have to actually sit down and go over the the plan off of what is again what the um the franchise guys has sent us in this uh 10 page packet that we we put in with it so

Well, I see a bottom line for the two doors. If additional signage might be needed somewhere on a window or somewhere else. And if that's the case, I suggest that you speak with the professional staff about that before going ahead with it.

Okay. Yeah, I wouldn't see... OSBT- Dave Kuntz & I mean if he's going to have those on the awnings you know there was just a small logo or just even a word that said that. OSBT- Dave kuntz & I can see that having nothing on it, but the hours of operation or something small.

OSBT- Hal Hallstein, Okay, well, it might be something to consider before going ahead okay.

OSBT- David Kuntz & i'll make note of that Thank you. OSBT- Curt Brown, carolyn.

Yeah. Actually, I went to that subway. They always had the two doors, one from each side. And it was small enough that people would figure it out. But with the current situation, I agree with Steve that you should probably have some kind of direction where people are going to order and where people are going exit. That's smart. The question I have actually is about if there's 14 you know, outside seated. Is there an opportunity to do the, I know you're showing some planter boxes around, is there an opportunity to show it more on the south edge? Because sitting along Clayton Road, it's not really that pleasant. Yes, you have a walking path and you have grass strip. But to me, it seems like you have an opportunity either in the grass strip with permission from the city or along that edge to fill in and create some kind of, you know, at least some kind of aesthetic buffer for the Patriot, which would make it so much more pleasant, I would think.

Yeah, I agree. I can see those two at the sides moving there. Or, I mean, even if you went and got eight or 10 of these things to put, you know, four or five along the bottom and a couple on the sides. And the only reason we showed those ones at the top break up the walk that's kind of a thoroughfare through there, kind of, in the patio area. But really, I mean, I mean, a lot of these restaurants you see, like, they almost have it where it's landlocked. Like, you've got the public walk there on the south part. I mean, you know, heck, that could even be closed in if it wanted to or to be, so... basically but no you

don't have to though i mean

yeah yeah you're showing

now are six tables but it's actually only four or five

or with a two-seater or something however

yeah so you actually have room to ship things and actually get a full length planter in there or something to offer you know the the patrons from the

sound and noise. If you

look, yeah. If you look at your, your graphic here, it's like, eh, don't really want to sit there. So, I mean, my, my comment is just mostly, you know, how can you make it even more of a popular place? Right. Sure. That was my comment there. Let me see.

No,

that was it for me. Thank you.

Okay. I think it's great too. Outdoor seating always helps bring life to an area, so I think that's great. And from a restaurant's point of view, it's becoming more and more essential for survival in this COVID era. So I think that's important. The only question I have, and the outdoor seating I see trending in St. Louis for the last couple of years is adding heaters to extend the outdoor season because a lot of people prefer eating outside than inside. And it's sprouting like weeds in all the outdoor places I see. I don't know if that's just something they can add or do they have to come back to the city at all? I don't know how that works.

The heaters are allowed by permit through the fire department.

Okay. Have you contemplated putting in heaters in these places?

I wouldn't. strongly suggested. I think for now he didn't, maybe just didn't want to go in for too much or worry about that exactly. I wouldn't see it anything more than mushroom type gas propane ones you roll out there and either cover or bring in or, you know, when the season's over.

Is this a lunch place and or dinner? I'm sorry, maybe I'm not, I thought it was just a lunch place. I

think it's mainly, yeah, it's more geared towards lunch. It's lighter foods. I think though in his hours of operation, again, I didn't see that maybe Anissa knows if that was on any of the permits or on the applications. But yeah, we went for lunch down at the hospital and that did seem more like just lunchtime foods and that, but I would I would assume he's going to be open into the evening. If, you know, even if it's, you know, cause he got nurses, if you got people at the hospital, they're eating all hours or weird times and stuff anyway. So I'm not sure about his, you know, full dinner menu. It's all one and thinking the same, basically.

The one in Cape Girardeau was open till seven.

Seven. Yeah.

The proposed hours of operation are until 8 p.m., Monday through Friday, and then 6 p.m., Saturday and Sunday.

Okay. Yeah, I don't think he wants it as a late night or anyone out there, you know, especially, you know, summer hours after that, you're still actually in the daylight, so. Well, good luck to you.

Anything else, Bob? Nope. Okay. Ellen?

Yes. The plan shows a drain in the center of the patio. What does that drain connect

to? We didn't know if under, when we pull all this out of here, we didn't see it on existing landlord drawings. It appears there's only wheat drains out the brick of this thing. And that's fine if the patio can be, when it's level, taken up to those. If not, I don't know. I was thinking if there's anything along there that taps into some other drain, because I didn't know if like these things pined up these landscape things or you're just hoping they wick through these brick walls, was just a, you know, work with you know we find there's nothing below there then you know they're going to pitch the concrete anyway probably a 16th inch per foot um and that's what it seems like all this is going towards um the public walk there from what i saw

okay it's given that now we're currently going into cold weather it becomes a consideration of just where the water is being directed with earth filled there, the water will eventually soak in further and further into the ground till it dissipates. But when you have something that is impervious, then it becomes a consideration. So I would look into it.

Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that's again, part of, um, you know, we, we don't want to go tap and spend some money and get, you know, and I don't know where, you know, where all the rest of the storm water goes out there. You'd have to take it to the street or something. Um, so again, you know, his option with doing pavers or just the concrete, um, once he got some bids, uh, I think with the landscape, um, if we're doing pavers or a concrete guy, I think we'll wind up, um, having to make it work to get, whether we drill some weeps through that brick wall or, I mean, there's some in there right now. It's just how tall is the height of that dirt there where they're wicking down and where the new concrete is going to come up to. So yeah, I, the surface drain, I don't, I don't know. I don't see that happening less. Again, like I said, there was something under here once we dug all that up that there's something down under there that's, you know, draining out of it. You are right. It's kind of like HAB-Jacques Juilland, detention or retention ponds with your building a brand new building you know you're taking that you know surface. HAB-Jacque Juilland, grass or landscape, whatever that is and you're turning into hardscape or hard roofs and stuff where it has to go somewhere and be collected. HAB-Masyn

Moyer- Okay, everything else looks great.

HAB-Michael Leccese, Okay. HAB-Terry Palmos- Ira.

PB Harmon Zuckerman, I don't have any further to add to it, Steve. PB John Gerstle, Okay, thank you, David.

PB

David Ensign, I thought the drain question was really good. I'd like to see that added as a condition that they PB David Ensign , Send that final design to staff for approval. PB David Ensigne, Other than that, I don't I have any questions or comments.

PB Harmon Zuckermann, Okay, do we have any hands up in the audience. No, sir. Okay, thank you. Well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. And David has suggested that the drain be part of the final review by the staff when it is submitted. And I think that's a good idea that Helen brought up. So do we have a motion?

Yes, I'll make a motion to approve with the recommendation. to send the final drainage slash grading plan to the staff for approval prior to construction.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Thank you, Brian. Good luck with the project.

PB John Gerstle, Thank you guys very much we'll get those things cleaned up and back to you and go from there, I appreciate it. PB David Ensign & Okay, thank you. PB David

Ensigne & Thank you

take care of a good night. PB John Gerstley,

Okay we'll move on to item number three 350 demand avenue and that will be playing Commission first.

This is the review of the site plan associated with an addition to a single family residents at 350 demand. The 11,047 square foot site is located just northeast of the intersection between demand avenue and fucker drive and has a zoning designation of our two single family drawing districts. The existing one story home measures 1450 square feet in area and the proposed project consists of the construction of a 1350 square foot single story edition on the rear of the home. The proposed project square footage is greater than 50% of the existing structure square footage and therefore requires site plan review. The project meets the setback and height requirements of the R1 zoning district and the location of the AC equipment and trash containers is compliant with code. In terms of stormwater drainage and impervious coverage, the existing total lot impervious coverage on site is 37.5%. The plans increase the total lot impervious coverage to 41.5%, which remains below the maximum allowed of 55%. The existing stormwater runoff is 0.61 cubic feet per second. The proposed runoff is 0,62 cubic feet per second, which represents an increase of 0.01 CFS. To mitigate additional runoff, The applicants have proposed a crushed limestone drywall in the front yard of the property to the southwest of the existing home. The capacity of the drywall is 150.53 cubic feet, which is more than the 150 cubic feet required. The proposed addition is compatible with the existing home and with surrounding homes in the neighborhood. The proposed addition is located entirely in the rear yard and the combination of its location and the existing trees to remain indicate that the addition will not be visible from the public right-of-way. Staff's recommendation is to approve with the following condition to be reviewed by staff prior to the issuance of a building permit. To ensure the future maintenance and operation of the drywall, the applicant shall report the approved site plan with St. Louis County and submit proof of recording to the city prior to issuance of the permit. And that concludes the site plan review presentation.

Thank you. Let's see. It looks like the applicant or other parties are here. Hello. Would you like to respond to the staff report?

No, no questions. We're happy to get the copy of the documentation over to St. Louis County for documentation or recording. and report back to Anissa and team with the page numbers. So Anissa was very nice to give me instructions on what we needed to do to document that, but we can work on that before we get the building permit.

Okay. I did have a question about the site plan. If I'm reading it correctly, the trash cans are on the south side of the house. Is that true?

That's correct. I think they're slightly behind what's the existing structure right now on the south side of

the house. That's where they are now currently.

Oh, okay. Well, if they're there, fine. If they were coming from somewhere else, I thought it would probably be located better near the driveway or on the north side of the house, but If they're existing, that's it.

Yep, that's where they are. The kitchen is on this level and that seems to be where most of the garbage comes from. So it works out pretty well on the south side.

Yeah, proximity counts. Okay, well, this is site plan review. I think... PB John Gerstle, You know it works out, it is a large addition, but it fits into all the parameters that the city has set up from the planning point of view, I really don't have any problem with it, but let's go around and we'll start with Carol.

HAB-Masyn Moyer- Okay, and so you might be able to anisa sorry I might be able to explain this a little bit better, but why are we not requiring a landscape plan, I mean it's a lot of areas that is being disturbed.

HAB-Masayn Moyer- They aren't making any modifications to the existing landscaping so they will protect the existing trees and we'll look for that protection at time of the building permit, but since they aren't really adding or changing anything we didn't do a landscape plan as necessary.

HAB-Charlotte Pitts:" And well they're taking out some existing. So whether or not it be treated.

We're not taking out any existing landscaping. There's nothing there in the footprint.

Oh, the actual drawing shows planter and other stuff. Let's get in there.

Oh, that will be there eventually. Yeah, we'll put in something pretty eventually. But right now... There's some hostas that are, but that's about all that's going to be gone is the two hostas.

The Volts is drawing and has something else there underneath. I mean, I'm sure it's not trees. It's not significant, but there is landscaping there. That's why I was wondering. Okay.

Yeah. While she looks for that, and I'm sorry, your name escapes me, but there's a picture of the back of the house. There is no trees in the footprint.

No, I know there's no trees, but landscaping encompasses

more. Yeah, there was nothing there except for what used to be the walkout basement. There's kind of a pit area there that was nothing but hosing off muddy children. And then some hot stuff. HAB-Masyn Moyer- That was really all that and we've okay so it's a drawing that's not

clear

okay yeah no. HAB-Charlotte Pitts, Okay. HAB-Marsy

Rimes- The next question I have for you. HAB-Marys Rimes- i'm trying to get past the substantial. Um, comment, but that's okay. Um, the next question I have is actual hardscape materials. What are they? What are the details? What are the sections? And then it says the pavement, but it doesn't say what kind. Um, I'm just wondering what the materials are for that.

Uh, the pavers. Yes.

Yes.

Just concrete pavers. Okay.

Um, Are we? Okay. Sorry. The canopy, do we have an elevation or a detail of that?

The canopy is in the rear exterior view. That's on the second big page, just showing the roof line coming over and extending. Oh,

okay. Okay. That's what you meant. All right. That's fine. Okay, I just the papers. It's nice to know building materials, but it's also nice to know landscape building materials as well like civics. That's why I was

Pardon my interruption. Could I please have the name of the gentleman that just spoke?

Yeah, of course. Chuck Marley, our contractor. I'm sorry,

I couldn't hear you.

Chuck Marley, and I'm going to be doing the general contracting for them. I'm also Maggie's dad. I've done this for a long time in St. Charles, developed subdivisions, done, you know, the dirt work, the development work, all that stuff. So I've been well experienced in this line of work.

Thanks. I just needed it for the record. Thank you.

That's all I had. It's fine. That's all I have. Thank

you. I think the expansion makes the house fit more in line with all the other houses. It's quite small and the addition, most of our two-story houses as you may know. And this will still stay a single story, but I think it will add to the neighborhood a lot. And living across the street from this family, I can only say that watching the three kids run back and forth to their grandparents' house two doors down is a wonderful sight. And they could use the added room for the three kids. So I think it works. Thanks, Bob. Ellen?

No questions, nothing to add.

Okay.

Ira? Well, seeing as they have three kids, I agree with Bob, for sure. I have no questions, though. Thanks, Steve. Okay.

David? No questions. Okay. Were there any hands up? in the

audience. Eric V. Meyer

with Volz. We're the civil engineer on the project. I just need to clarify Anissa's earlier statement. The report was saying the crushed limestone drywall in the front yard is the Mitigating BMP, it is actually not. That's the discharge point. We're storing the increased water under the permeable paver patio that's going in the rear. The crushed limestone was just to allow the discharge point to drain because the pipe is too big for a standard pop-up emitter. So we had to go with a yard inlet with a perforated bottle. I've used this method on several other projects that have gotten MSD approval. So it was just our way of allowing Don D' The greater than the design storm event to flow through and still discharge while not holding water in a inlet out in the front yard. Don

D' Hopefully anyone have any further comment or question about that. Don D' No.

I don't know if we need to, I'll work with Eric on that to see if we need to document anything extra clear if we're going to record it with the county. Just so the county doesn't get confused Um, on the, where we're actually,

it shouldn't be any county. I know exactly the document that we have to do. I do quite often. So yeah, I'll, I'll have the document to you, uh, this week. I won't be in the office tomorrow, uh, Maggie, but I'll have that to you this week.

Okay. Awesome. Then we'll get it to the county and get that info back to Anissa. Okay.

Thank you, Eric. I'm

sure everybody knew exactly what was going on.

We appreciate that. Appreciate it. Any further comments on the site plan review? No. Okay. And were there any other hands raised, David? There are not. Okay. Thank you. We do have a staff recommendation. And of course, it's about the dry well and recording it. Do we have a motion to that effect?

I'll make a motion to approve with staff recommendation.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Yep. Site plan review is passed. Okay, now we can go on to item number four, which is the architectural review of the same project. Anissa?

This is for the review of the design and materials associated with the addition to the single family residence. The proposed building addition will include a main floor and a basement slash lower level addition, including an extension of the existing garage. The existing home has a primary building material of white painted brick with white vinyl as a secondary material. The existing home features a mix of white double hung encasement windows and gray architectural roof shingles. The proposed addition will be constructed of materials to match the existing building as well as gray hardy board cement panels. White brick and accents of vinyl siding are common in the Ellenwood subdivision, although vinyl siding is not a permitted material, staff is of the opinion that the proposed vinyl siding is appropriate in this circumstance. The addition is located in the rear of the property and will not be visible from the right-of-way, and the introduction of a new accent material would not unify the addition with the existing home. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed building materials are compatible with the existing structure and with the neighborhood character. The existing wood fence around the perimeter of the rear yard is proposed to remain. Retaining walls are proposed in the rear patio area, but the height and materials were not specified. at the time of writing the staff report, but the applicant has since indicated that the architectural wall in the rear will be comprised of white brick. Staff is of the opinion that the design and materials of the addition are compatible with the neighborhood. As the applicant has identified the material of the architectural wall and since it is to be located in the rear of the home, staff finds the white brick wall permissible. Therefore, I would like to amend the staff report and note that staff recommends approval with no conditions. And that concludes my presentation.

Thank you. Let's see. Maggie or Eric, any further comments on the staff report on the ARB?

No, we tried to make it fit with the existing home. We didn't want anything to stand out that it was an addition. So we're trying to make it fit as much as possible. That was our goal.

Okay.

Eric,

anything further? I have nothing to add on the architectural aspects. Okay.

Our architect that I'll note is also our neighbor, Rick Adelina. So obviously he's had tremendous input into the project and he'll probably be the one with the closest view of it. Yes,

very true. I agree with... Bob Denlow's comment about the house will fit in much better in the context of the neighborhood as far as size goes, even though it will appear as a single story home from the street. But it also will make it a much more livable home for the occupants. So I really have no problem including the addition of the siding on the back side of the house. So I'm okay with it, but let's go through the ARB members and see if there are any other comments. Carolyn?

very true. I agree with... Bob Denlo's comment about the house will fit in much better in the context of the neighborhood as far as size goes, even though it will appear as a single story home from the street. But it also will make it a much more livable home for the occupants. So I really have no problem including the addition of the siding on the back side of the house. So I'm okay with it, but let's go through the ARB members and see if there are any other comments. Carolyn?

I had no comments. Thank you.

Bob? No comments. Wish them good luck. Helen?

No comments.

Myra?

No comments. David.

Sorry, no comments. Okay.

And according to Anissa, she is amending the staff recommendation to approve as submitted without any further condition. And do we have a motion to that effect?

No hands raised at all.

No hands are up. No.

Okay. I'll make a motion to approve as submitted, omitting the staff recommendation.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. You're on the way. Good luck, everyone. Thanks for coming tonight.

Thank you very much.

Appreciate

it.

Bye-bye. PB Harmon Zuckerman, Okay we'll move on now to item five 6460 Sam bonita. PB Harmon Zuckermann, When you see. Lisa Smith PB Lisa Smith

PB Sarah Silver PB Sarah Silver, The 5396 square foot property is located on the south side of Sam bonita avenue west of its intersection with seminary place. Lisa Smith PB Sarah Smith PB Sarah Silver, That project consists of the installation of one to two feet retaining walls along the north property adjacent to the sidewalk as well as along the driveway on the western portion of the property. The proposed retaining walls will replace old tie walls. The walls will be constructed from anchor highland concrete in varying shades of gray. The project also includes the installation of a trap rock gravel seating area. The gravel path will lead from the driveway to the proposed circular seating area and from the seating area back to the rear yard. Landscaping is also proposed in association with this project and includes a mix of shrubs, ornamental trees, and flowers throughout the front yard and between the retaining walls along the northern edge of the property. The architectural review board prefers the use of masonry walls in front yards. However, modular block walls are allowed if they include three different block sizes, a varying color pattern, and tumbled edges. The proposed wall conforms to these requirements. The retaining wall closest to the sidewalk will be set back approximately one foot from the sidewalk in order to improve pedestrian mobility. The added landscape planting soften the appearance of the walls and serve as a buffer for the proposed front yard seating area. Staff recommendation is to approve as submitted.

Okay, thank you. Let's see. Looks like we do have Shannon Whittemore. Are you... Oh, you're the applicant. I'm sorry. Do you have any further comment about the staff report? And please unmute yourself.

Oh, there we go. Sorry. No, I don't.

Okay. I thought it looked fine. It seems to meet the requirements as the staff report had indicated. You do have a shared driveway. Is that correct?

I believe they do have a shared driveway.

Okay. But the wall on the backside of the house or the side of the house does not encroach upon the driveway at all, if I'm reading correctly.

No, they already have a tie wall there that we're basically just taking down and putting a block wall up.

Okay. Okay. Seems OK to me, but let's go around the board members, Carolyn.

I had no comments negative. I do have one comment that I want to make generally about hybrid plants and it's about using hybrid plants. There are several species that people specify that actually are not pollinator species because they've been engineered to death. So it's actually detrimental and I can get a list to you if you would like to see some of that, but sometimes I see some plants on lists and I'm like, oh, well, that's not a pollinator anymore because their pollination parts have been taken out. yeah yeah

i would love uh so yeah

because it seems like you guys care so i'm mentioning it so um it would be important to educate in general about that um it's not always a good decision to use okay but otherwise it looks great beautiful beautiful walls thank you

okay helen

nothing to add

Ira? I

don't have anything to ask. No comments. Thanks.

David?

No comments.

Are there any comments with hands up in the audience?

I don't see any.

Okay, thank you. Well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion?

Yes, I'll make a motion to approve as submitted.

Do we have a second? Bob is no longer

here.

Thank you. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Thank you, Shannon. Good luck with the project.

Thank you.

Okay, we can go on to item number six, which is 16 North Central.

The subject property is located on the east side of North Central Avenue between Forsyth Boulevard and Maryland Avenue. The property contains a two-story commercial building with a ground floor retail chocolate shop. The retail store proposes to remove the existing bi-fold entry doors and replace with an aluminum storefront system. The proposed storefront system is comprised of aluminum doors and frames black in color to match the existing doors. The fixed glass located above the existing doors will remain. Staff is of the opinion that the materials and design of the closed doors are compatible with the existing structure, as well as with other retail slash restaurant spaces along Central Avenue. And our recommendation is to approve the request as submitted.

OK, thank you. Ron Hamp? Yes. Do you have any comments?

No, I think it's pretty self-explanatory if you can tell by the drawings and I think it was on your guys' notes that St. Louis County Health Department is not allowing that tenant to have those accordion doors at the front facade. So we're just replacing those accordion doors with aluminum storefront door, pretty much almost the same profile. We will have a set of double doors for egress in and out of the space. But yeah, it's pretty straightforward.

Okay. Now, besides the new doors going in there, two doors to the north of it or to the south rather, will those still be operational?

The doors to the South actually feeds a hallway that feeds the upper tenant. Plus there's a entrance in that hallway that feeds the tenant that we're looking to renovate that storefront with.

Okay. And another question, many of us don't get out much under current conditions. Is there really a chocolate shop in there?

I think it's more of a coffee and actually there's a, a young lady with Gershman that she might be able to log in and explain more of what type of tenants going into that space?

Well, of course we're only looking at the architectural part of it. It would just be of interest to know what's going in there. The last that I remember it was Wicked Greens but that was pre-pandemic.

Correct. I think it's more of a specialty coffee and tea situation that's going inside there.

Okay.

The name of the tenant is Honeymoon Chocolates. Without being an expert on their product, they have chocolate that's sweetened with honey instead of high fructose corn syrup or sugar. So an alternative to your normal chocolate.

Okay.

So I agree with what Anissa said.

PB Harmon Zuckerman, Well, that was a good advertisement. Thank you.

PB Harmon

Zuckermann, Carolyn. Any comments. Caroline Miller,

Now I have no comments. Thank

you.

I'm wondering how the entry point will work. It appears that you've got the double doors and then you've got the single door. So you can go in from any of those points?

So the current accordion doors have a set of double doors in the center already. It's just not, you can't see it for that part, but there's already a set of double that center of that opening. But yes, you could come from the hallway side of the interior or you come in through the front entrance.

Okay. As I remember way back, with Wicked Greens was that the, where you have the set of double doors, the accordion folding doors, those didn't really say I am the entry point. They more or less told you that you could eat inside or outside. I'm wondering would the Three, now you'll have three out swinging doors. How will you handle outdoor seating?

Well, you got to remember the door going on the far right also feeds the upstairs tenant. So, I mean, that's the main feed of there. Just a side entrance in that corridor that I can assume is designed for the tenants upstairs who want to come down and go into that space. So, you know, there's always been a set of double doors there. I'm not sure it's really going to impact the seating. I don't think it's required. They are egress doors. They will have panic hardware on it and it's ADA compliant. But I still think that side door into the hallway is adequate for the egress out into the space. So I'm not sure. Are you just worried about seating being in front of the door? I'm not quite sure.

I'm just wondering, it sounds like a wonderful idea, having a chocolate shop. I love chocolate. And I'm just wondering how it's going to really accommodate doors swinging out. Well, that if there are egress doors required, you can't have seating in front of them.

Well, like I said before, the egress, the main egress for that would be coming out into the hallway and then out the exterior of that route. That is currently the egress out of the space. So these are just a secondary door, but I'm assuming the tenant's not going to put seating right in front of the set of doors because I'm assuming they want to go in and out of those to attend to their customers out on the sidewalk plus have access in and out.

Okay. No, I think it's a great idea. I will definitely check it out.

Thank you.

Ira? No, I don't have any questions.

David?

I don't have comments.

Okay. Are there any hands up in the audience? No, sir. Okay. Thank you. Well, we do have a staff recommendation to approve as submitted. Do we have a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve and submit it.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye. Aye.

Opposed? Okay. Thank you, Ron. Thank you for your time. And we'll look forward to it being in operation. PB Harmon Zuckerman, Okay we've come to item seven to to to South merrimack avenue. PB Harmon Zuckermann, Lisa. Lisa Smith PB Sarah Silver PB Sarah Silver,

The subject property is located on the east side of South merrimack Avenue between shop or drive and bottom avenue the property has a zoning designation of high density commercial districts and is located in the central station to the overlay zoning district. The project consists of the addition of a 754 square foot patio comprised of concrete pavers. The patio area will be enclosed by black aluminum fencing with access gates four feet in height. The walkway in the center of the patio area leading to the building entry will remain accessible to the public. The brick pavers in the walkway will be removed and replaced with concrete pavers to match the proposed patio. The area where the proposed patio will be located currently contains landscaping comprised of small shrubs and an ornamental tree. The addition of the patio will create a functional space for tenants and visitors to the building with tables and chairs providing seating areas. The material and color of the tables and chairs were not specified, however, all furniture should be constructed of a durable metal material in line with the city's outdoor dining regulations. The proposal includes a walkway in the center of the patio that extends into the right-of-way. As the walkway extends into the right of way, it must conform with city streetscape design. The pavers should be constructed from concrete that matches the surrounding right of way area. Staffs recommendation is to approve with the following conditions to be addressed prior to issuance of the building permit. First materials for the outdoor furniture must be provided and shall comply with furniture requirements for outdoor dining. Second a right of way activity permit is required for work in the right of way. And third, the walkway material shall be revised to match city streetscape design standards per the public works department. And that concludes my presentation.

Okay, thank you. Let's see. I see someone, is it Richard Hill from Premier? Yes. Okay, welcome. And do you have any comments about the staff report?

Thank you. The only comment that I had was the existing papers that are in the right of way are existing. And originally that was proposed to just leave those papers and put in the new concrete papers up on the patio, but we mentioned to the owner that it would probably look nicer to take those old papers and replace them with new papers than matched. So if the point is that we can't take them and replace them, then I would probably suggest to the owner that we leave the existing pavers as they are, and then just try to find a color that would match it. But ideally, I think it would look better to have all the pavers matching.

You've already indicated that they would have to meet the standards of the pavement. Is that correct?

That's correct. Public Works' standpoint is typically once you're touching things in the right of way, you need to bring it up to the streetscape standards. So although the papers that are existing may not be in compliance with streetscape standards, if you're going to be tearing those out, they have to conform with what's required there.

But if they're not tearing them out, they could remain. Is that correct?

I believe so, but I would like to confirm that with Public Works.

Okay. Well, I had a question. That's a lot of pavement that will get south and west sun during the summer. And I see you have umbrellas, but not much greenery. It seems very hard surfaced. Is there currently or will there be a food provider or a small restaurant on the ground floor of the building?

The owner is actually on here too, so we might bring him in to talk. I don't believe that there is. I think this is strictly for his employees. And regarding the greenery, there are hanging planters there. He's trying to get the planters up so that it's no longer... the place for all the local dogs to come and use this facility.

Oh. Okay. Well, then it really is not a public space. It really is for the use of the employees in the building only. Correct. I didn't hear an answer.

PB Harmon Zuckerman. Oh, I said, correct.

Oh, thank you. Okay. PB Harmon Zuckerson. Well, you heard my comment. It seems to fit what the owner is desiring it looks a little hard to me, but maybe with some more hanging planters that may soften it up. PB Harmon Zuckerman. Carolyn.

I agree with Steve on his comments. That was my first reaction. Excuse me. Even as an employee, I don't think I'd want to go out there. It's very cold. It's not hospitable in any way. It seems like you need at least a grid of trees or something in there to make it pleasant It could actually be a very popular space for employees. Yeah, I question the decision not to put landscaping out there. Hanging planters are very different than actual plants that are coming from the surface of the ground. But I leave that to the next person for comment.

Ellen.

Yes, I do have a couple of questions. First of all, why a four foot high fence? Four feet is high.

What would you propose?

Looking at your neighbor on South Merrimack, they have... I'm eyeballing it. It looks to be about three feet. Is there a purpose for four feet?

I don't know that there was, but again, the owner is actually on here, Nader. Maybe raise your hand and they can buzz you in. I

don't see anyone by that name or a hand up. There is a phone number on there. It's 314-303-1700. That's

him.

Okay. Sounds good. I will allow him to speak here.

Well, until he is...

He'll need to unmute himself on Zoom in order to talk.

According with Helen's comment, why do we need a fence? Landscape. But...

I'm on if you can hear me.

Sure. Could you give us your name, please?

Sure. My name is Nader, N-A-D-I-R, Javaharian with VAD Realty.

Yes. Could you explain why you have a four foot fence?

Like Rick, our architect said, we're not committed to four feet. We just were trying to keep, we've had a homeless issue at that building and We've had to call Clayton police probably seven or eight times this year to evict homeless people sleeping in the lobby. Um, so we were just trying to think of some way of keeping, uh, You know, the separation between the people not in the building and the people in the building, but whether it's three feet or four feet, I don't particularly mind. and as far as the greenscape goes i would like to i don't know how i don't know what you guys are looking at but um the plan that i had in mind and i met with some planning and zoning uh official at clayton before covet hit and she and i walked it and decided to put hanging plants and potted trees there on the on both of those patios so i'm all for making it very green i'm not trying to i'm not trying i don't have any advantage in making it cold and uh unused but the current landscape that's there is only a litter box for pets in the area and it looks terrible

now i understand that i think a lower fence and something more decorative the picket fence at four feet looks institutional And it says, keep out. You're not supposed to climb over. It's not creating an inviting space that you want the tenants to use. Sure.

Again, I'm for anything reasonable in terms of the look and aesthetic of the fence. as well as more potted plants and greenery and hanging baskets.

Okay, my other question.

I don't know how we get to that, but whatever you guys say that's reasonable, I'm good with.

I think if you think about when you're seated, your chair height is about 18 inches. So your eye height is about four feet roughly. So Something two and a half to three feet. If someone's going to climb a fence, even if it's a picket fence and they want to get over, they'll get over it. Something that is lower so that when you're sitting, you see beyond being in a fenced area. Obviously you're aware of the fence, but it's not at your eye level. And if you look at Woodfire Peel Pizza, which is just north of here, they have an interesting decorative fence.

Would you be happy with the same look?

It's more playful. It's more appealing and

Pardon?

Helen, you're breaking up.

Oh, wonderful. Yeah, I've got a bar that says my internet connection is unstable. Okay, I could not hear the last part when I mentioned peel pizzas fencing.

I said, would you be happy, would the panel be happy with the same or very similar fencing as is currently at the Peel up the street?

Personally, I think something that's similar would be good. Sure. I don't see any need to duplicate it. In fact, it would be nice if it were a little different. The other question I have is with regard to the bollards. Have you had a need for something like that?

I assume you're talking about the bollards that would be on both sides of the entrance and exit to the parking.

Right.

Yeah, we have had cars clip the brick wall of both entrances. You know, those buildings are 50s buildings, so they're pretty narrow to get in and out of. But we just thought we would protect anybody sitting on the patio. That's what I was really afraid of more than anything.

Okay, what about, and I know it's more expensive than just the basic bollard, but the bollards that are in front of the police department on Brentwood Boulevard, those planters are in essence bollards, right? So that way you get the green planting and it would look decorative, but it would also be incredibly functional for protecting anybody sitting there or the corner of the building.

Yes, I'm open to looking at those. The only thing I would say is that those patios are both so small to begin with that if we give up a lot of the square footage to big potted Are the bollards you're talking, are the planters you're talking about in potted material?

They're not that large. The police department, look in front of the police department on

Greenwood

Boulevard. I mean, they don't advertise, obviously, that they are security measures, but they're not that large they have the same foundation system as the bollards that you show.

Okay, I'm open to that too. My main intent with that was to protect anyone sitting in the patio from an errant car or a traffic incident.

No, I mean, that sounds perfectly reasonable since you've had people clipping the edge of the building. Yeah. No, those were my only comments.

Great. I'm good with all of those things.

Okay.

Thanks, Helen. Ira?

I think my comments have been pretty well covered. I mean, I think I don't need to repeat how it looks and how unwelcoming or how cold it looks. So I think the applicant has gotten the point. So I appreciate that. And hopefully that site can be changed to something that's a whole lot more attractive.

Sure.

Thank you.

David?

No comments. Thank you. Okay.

Any hands up in the audience? No, sir. Okay. Well, we do have a staff recommendation with three conditions and I think I'd like to consider adding one that a revised plan of the exterior area be shown where there might be some plantings or ballards or fence changes and have it submitted to the staff. If anyone agrees with that or would like to modify it, we're certainly open to it.

I agree. And if we need to make a motion out of that, I'll...

We

do.

Okay. Steve, to clarify, you're adding a number four that might state a revised plan of exterior areas showing plants, bollards, and what was the other thing?

Fencing.

Thank you. Okay, I'll make a motion now then. I make a motion to approve with the three staff recommendations and the board adding a number four, which states a revised plan of exterior areas showing plants, bollards, fencing, and those items to be submitted to the staff for review.

Did you want to include the outdoor furniture in that or no? That's the

first one. What are you in there? Well, that's in there.

It's item number one.

That's number one.

Okay.

We're adding a four. Sorry.

Yeah, and after number four, so it's not only for staff review, but for staff review and approval.

Yes. Thank you.

I can do it again. Can I do it again?

No? I think we have it.

Okay.

Do we have a second?

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Well, thanks for coming tonight. And staff will be seeing a few items be submitted to them. So thank you and good luck with the project. Thank you.

Thanks a lot.

Okay, and now we're to item number 8, 646 Francis Place. Anissa?

The subject property is located on the east side of Francis Place, west of Interstate 170. The existing structure is constructed of brick red in color with stone at the base of the front porch. The majority of the homes in France's place are similarly constructed of red brick and gray roof shingles with a variety of accent materials and various window and door jams. However, there are several homes on the block that have been painted, including several structures in a white or off-white color and one structure in a dark gray color. As proposed, all existing red brick surfaces will be painted with bare silky bamboo. The applicant is also proposing to wrap the four white grapevine-style porch columns with square wooden columns painted black. The applicant is also opposing minor changes, including the replacement of the existing white garage door with a door similarly featuring a single row of windows, as well as removing the overgrown bushes from the front of the home and replacing the area with mulch. Although the majority of homes within the subdivision feature red brick, Staff is of the opinion that the proposed painting will be an improvement to the existing structure. The wrapping of the white metal grapevine columns with a more neutral shape will also improve the appearance of the home and the removal of the overgrown shrubs will enhance the appearance of the property. However, staff is of the opinion of the plantings should be replaced in order to soften the appearance of the whole. Our recommendation is to approve with one condition to be addressed prior to issuance of building permit. And that condition is that the applicant shall provide a detailed planting plan for the front of the home. That concludes my presentation.

Okay, thank you. Is the, oh yes, okay, he's here. Mr. Woods? Yeah. Do you have any comments on the state report?

The only thing I would say is, I think I may have, when doing this, I messed up a little bit. We absolutely plan on replanting the shrubs that are there now are such ugly, overgrown ones. And we take them out, we will absolutely put boxwoods or something nice and green back in the place, just something that's a little cleaner and nicer. And we'll certainly provide that plan in advance of getting a permit. But we do have every intention. We were tearing out ugly just to put some new pretty back in for the bushes out front.

OK. And you do understand the staff recommendation with a detailed planting plan to be submitted?

Yes.

Okay. I think it vastly improves the house. It brings it more into the context of the rest of the neighborhood. But I do have a question about the wood. Is that real wood or is that a manufactured wood on the railing?

That is a real primed pressure-treated wood that will, once it sits there below it, then we will paint it black as the color was mentioned. But it's actual wood.

Okay. And then the rail, the vertical rails, those I assume are metal?

Correct. That will be aluminum balusters and then you'll have wood again on the top and the bottom which will be painted black to match everything up.

Well, I think it'll be a nice up-to-date improvement. But let's go around. Carolyn?

HAB-Masyn Moyer- Okay um I didn't have any real comments, except when you said boxwood now I would like to look at the grow native website and perhaps come up with a. HAB-Marsyn Moyer- A plant or shrub I mean that would be better fitted to this environment and the existing soils. HAB-Marysyn Moyer- that's my only comment okay thanks.

Ellen?

No comments.

Okay. Ira? It's like a fine improvement. I don't have any comments, Steve.

David?

I don't have comments.

Any hands up from the neighbors? There are not. None. Okay. Well, we do have staff recommendation with one condition. for the detailed planting plan. And with that, do we have a motion?

I make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Well, you're on the way. When will this be completed?

Well, we... I've given up on jinxing myself on completion dates. Let's just say it'll be in 2022.

Good.

It'll be soon.

Well, good luck with it. It'll be a nice addition to the neighborhood.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Happy holidays everyone.

Same to you. Thank you. Okay, now we've come to the final item, which is other business. Hopefully everyone received the memo that was sent out this afternoon on requesting suggested names for the new park on Maryland Avenue. Has everyone been able to take a look at that? Yeah. Parks and Rec is looking for us to submit a name or names, I would assume, for consideration. And eventually it would go to the Board of Aldermen for approval. So we certainly are not going to make a decision tonight, but I'd like to ask either Susan or Anissa if you have any further comments on the process or anything else.

Susan Peterson, This is even though I don't. Susan Peterson, I don't have any I think I assumed you could submit more than one name. Susan Peterson, So that was kind of my expectation. PB John

Gerstle, that's how I read it, I also read that it was it did not have to be limited to one name so okay great. PB John

Gerastle,

Well, anyone on the. Plan Commission ARB, do you have questions about it? Or maybe you even have a suggestion right now.

Yep. Sorry to say, already do. Susan knows. Because of the library being close by, my husband and I were talking about it and we're like alphabet park because people are going to be reading there and there's so many opportunities for people with the plants and with even the tables and chairs. They were talking about that insert in the center of the table. You could put A, B, C, D. And then with the plants, you could do A for aster, B, bluestem. You could start doing stuff all around the park, naming the different flowers and the different plants. So Alphabet Park, initially I thought of Dewey something, but there's Dewey's Pizza, Dewey Decimal. but alphabet park is just cute it's a cute idea it's kid related and i don't know that's all i have to say about that one idea anyway

well it's a creative idea thank you carolyn um we certainly will come back and hopefully we'll have some more unless there's some more tonight also

Steve, I'm not going to weigh in because I'll have my opportunity with the board. And I think the idea here is to collect as many possible options, as many good choices as possible. Carolyn, that was very whimsical and very smart. So thank you. I'm sure it'll go in the basket. It's a start. It's a And I think for those of us who are involved in Clayton and helping Clayton become the best it can be, I think the idea was good to go around and submit to the various committees and commissions and see if anybody, whatever ideas people have, you know, put them in.

Interestingly, I went online to just see, I put in the address of the park and different things popped up. The Clayton Community Foundation has a, on their website they were soliciting donations for Literary Park. Hearing Carolyn's suggestion of Alphabet Park, that sounds much better than Literary Park just It's a mouthful to say, and it just doesn't have that same fun park ring to it as Alphabet Park. I like that. The only things I could come up with were, well, the city of Clayton had Maryland Avenue Park on their website. I thought Maryland Park, because... There's Oak Mill Park, just kind of a short name and it is on Maryland. So it locates it. Well,

how about Maryland?

Maryland?

Yeah, Happyland, like M-E-R-R instead of-

Maryland, yeah.

But that- Thank you.

Entertainment district overlay, that might be a bit much. The other things were Old Town Park because it is part of Old Town or Beamiston Park. And it's in the Beamiston subdivision. Most people wouldn't know that probably. They might think it was related to Beamiston Place, that development. But I think my preferences at the moment are either maryland park or alphabet park so i think it still needs more thinking

very good comments helen um i think we can certainly think more on that PB Harmon Zuckerman, Unless anyone else has any further suggestions tonight. Maybe we'll be able to get Bob and George in on it also as they return Karen Hollweg,

Chairman.

Yes.

Karen Hollweg, I'm just one suggestion if you want Karen Hollweg, If you all want to think, think on it for a while and then submit your suggestions to Anissa and me we could you know put them in a report or something just briefly summarize them and then send them out with the packets and then if you all wanted to talk about it at the meeting at least you'd have kind of time to think about the suggestions rather than just having them pop up while you're sitting here just a thought if that would help

yes it would i think um Everything that's been said tonight, maybe some others could be sent to you in the very near future. And if they could be attached to our meeting on the 20th, I think it is, or 18th, I don't remember which date, where we could look at them all and work on it and decide what to submit. So yes, I like that idea.

Okay, I'll send out a reminder and a deadline because in order to have it put in your packet, we would need it by a specific date. And then we'll summarize them in writing and just put it in there and you can contemplate it while you're looking at the packet.

Okay, thank you for the suggestion. I think it sounds very good. Anyone have any further suggestions, ideas or questions? No? Okay. Well, then I think we can move along. And Susan or Anissa, did you get all the names that were brought up by Carolyn or Helen?

Yes.

You did. Okay. Thank you. Okay, well, if there's no other discussion on that naming business we'll table that until the next meeting and we'll look forward to your request for further information and we'll get it back to you. And then only one other thing, Anissa what is coming up on the next meeting?

TAB, Every time I tell you, I think it changes so for the next meeting we won't have a presentation topic again Steve I know that you were really looking forward. TAB, To your discussion, we will be having a discussion on the clayton gardens ud specifically height of structures and the ud. Caroline Miller, I had brought that up at the last meeting and wanted it to be on this one, we had a large agenda so moving into the next meeting other than that, a few other small projects that should be a little smaller than this agenda. PB, David Ensign & Co- Okay.

PB, David ensign & co- Well we'll look forward to it and, of course, it could change again. PB,

David Unsign &

Co- Well, any general questions let's go around the room. PB, David Elsiear, Caroline.

No. Happy New Year. All good.

Okay. Ellen?

No, nothing to add or ask.

Ira? No, nothing from me either, but Happy New Year to everybody.

David? Happy New Year. Susan? No. Anissa? No. And Stephanie?

Nothing tonight.

Well, let's all hope for a happy and healthy new year. And we'll look forward to getting together on the 18th. So thanks, everyone. We'll see you then.

See you then. Thanks a

lot.