December 6, 2021 — Meeting Transcript

Chairman Steve Lichtenfeld?

Robert Dunlow?

Helen DiFate? Here. Carolyn Gatiss.

Helen DeFate? Here. Carolyn Gatiss.

David Gipson.

David Gibson.

George Hedick.

Ira Berkowitz.

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes.

Mr. Chair, I just wanted to mention as well, we do have an item on here that is the applicant is the city of Clayton, our parks and recreation department. It is the sixth item on the agenda. They also have a parks and recreation commission meeting this evening. So if we could move that to the second or third spot on the agenda, I don't know if we need the rest of the commission to approve that, but it would be much appreciated so she can prepare and be there in time. PB John Gerstle, Sure,

Levy, The project address is 8028 Orlando drive this is further review of the design and materials associated with the front yard retaining wall. The 7,200 square foot property is located mid-block on the south side of Orlando Drive. The project consists of the replacement of a tie wall retaining wall on the eastern portion of the property along the existing driveway with a modular block wall. The proposed wall will be constructed with a VersaLock mosaic tumbled block in the Bethany ledge color and will feature a tumbled cap. The height of the retaining wall will be three feet at their lowest point near the driveway and will increase to five and a half feet. The ARB prefers the use of masonry walls in front yards, however, modular block walls are allowed if they include different block sizes, a varying color pattern and tumbled edges. The proposed material conforms to these guidelines and staff's recommendation is to approve as submitted.

I'm here and actually my contractor is also on somewhere waiting to get put in so I don't know if he's can be put on as a panelist or not.

What's the contractor's

name, Jose Luis it's the actual contractor is like Jose Vasquez jail hardscape. I don't know they.

I don't know that I see him on here at the moment.

He texted me and said he's on, like he's waiting to be for access.

Here we go. Okay. Looks like he's here with someone else named Joe. Yeah, an

engineer. Yeah.

Great.

Can you guys

I can hear you.

um nope it's um it's a terrible place I don't know if I have the. capability to share my screen to show you live pictures of the lot. or not.

Okay. Can you guys see that? Yes. Okay. So the wall on the left of your screen, this wall is going down the driveway. This is one of the walls. So we're tearing it out and just putting a new engineered block wall. It's a three-piece system. First, a lock mosaic wall. HAB-Jacques Juilland, On the door there that wall ring back behind the wall down to the next steps and wall. PB, Harmon Zuckerman,

it's five and a half feet I think he's getting cut out but it's five and half feet. PB,

Yeah.

Were you able to hear me, Steve? Yeah, the answer was yes. It is exactly the same. Okay, sorry. Yeah. It was recommended to be approved, right? So I don't know if you guys need any more info beyond what he just showed you.

Right now you're actually looking... South. That looks south. The house faces north, and then this wall is on the east side of the property. And it just goes, I think why it comes to this meeting is because it goes past the front of the house level. It goes a little bit farther up, but it's very, very short, generally about one or two blocks for a little while, and then gets bigger as the driveway goes down towards the turnaround.

Yeah, yeah. It's just going to go down. It turns to the right and then, you know, tucks under the... It's a tuck under garage behind the house.

I'm not sure what the picture was that was submitted. Joe, do you have

that? Oh

yeah, no, that's not my yard, but that is the block. And we actually already have the block and a couple of plots. places on the side of our house and on the front, like there's a little landscaping retaining wall in the front. So it's just to keep it cohesive, same color, same four block pattern.

No, Steve, you asked the question that I was going to ask. So no comments.

Okay. George? No comments from my end. Carolyn?

Progress.

Bob? I think a new retaining wall will be an improvement.

Very much so.

A motion to approve as submitted?

That's the plan. I mean, I think they're going to start working as soon as they could get that permit. So they were just waiting to get that and then they'll be working this December.

Okay.

Okay. The subject property is 2,625 square feet in area and is zoned R3 district with a length of 74.6 feet and a width of 36.6 feet. The applicant is proposing a new public park on the property consisting of seating areas, landscaping, a bicycle repair station and a wire feature. The master plan for the proposed park was unanimously approved by the Parks and Recreation Commission in October of 2019. The subject site has a substantial amount of grade change from the sidewalk to the north of the property. The proposed park accommodates the difference by incorporating a ramp from the sidewalk to upper level of the site. Terrace planting areas are located on both sides of the ramp. While a full landscape plan was not provided, proposed planting materials are noted in the application and include a mixture of trees, perennials, and shrubs. The existing impervious area on the site is 1,535 square feet or 58%. The proposed impervious area is 1,550 square feet or 59%. and previous coverage is limited to 55% in the R3 district. Therefore, the applicant is requesting a 4% modification. The Plan Commission has the authority to approve up to 60% lot coverage in instances where an applicant can demonstrate just cause, and the ARB may act as the Plan Commission in this case. As noted previously, the property is narrow and constrained by complications in grade. The applicant has addressed these challenges by removing a patio space from their initial submittal and including additional plantings. The combination of the plantings along the paver path, the live wall screen and pollinator garden and the water feature all add functional pervious coverage to the site. Staff is of the opinion that the requested modification to the impervious coverage requirement is reasonable. This proposal also includes a 28.25 square foot wall sign. the proposed sign will be comprised of aluminum. Although the city's sign regulations stipulate that a single ground sign should not exceed 25 square feet, the sign regulations also state that the ARB has the authority to determine the appropriate location and number of signs, providing that the intent of the regulations is met. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed improvements are a valuable amenity to all patrons of the park, especially given the recent installation of the bike lane along Maryland Avenue. Our recommendation is to approve with the following condition to be addressed prior to issuance of the building permit. A planting plan shall be provided to staff for their approval prior to the issuance of a building permit. That concludes my presentation.

Hi.

all. It's a pleasure to be here tonight. I'm going

to go ahead and thank you for moving us up. I have Parks and Rec Commission after this, so I need to go to my next meeting. So I appreciate that. Karen Hollweg, i'm going to go ahead and turn this over in a minute to Jay and he'll go through the plan with you, I just wanted to thank you for considering this. Karen Hollweg, This will probably be my last time in front of you with a city project so i'm very excited about this one, this is property we purchased a couple of years ago and. Karen Hollweg , very excited that we now have the funding and a great plan for building a new park in the downtown area so Jay if you'd like to speak.

Yeah, I will share my screen and just can bring up the presentation slides and pages that we submitted and just kind of go through the plan itself. As Patty mentioned, this was master planned several years ago as part of a planning grant project. And it was a really exciting process. And we're excited to be at a point now where there's additional funding in place to move the project forward. And we wanted to bring this to you to just kind of share with you some of the overall vision and the design intent that we're moving forward with. if my screen wants to change let's see there we go um so i everybody i'm sure is very familiar with the site but you know the park itself is located in the what was until just recently the residential property lot there between the library and the gathering church on Maryland. So, you know, the idea of having this park that's really part of the urban fabric of Clayton and you know still provide those amenities that people think of when they want to to get out and spend time but doing a way that's it's a little more tied to the downtown or the central business district feel as opposed to a passive park so a small site like we talked about but really the idea is to engage with the street along maryland and the bike the bike lane And provide a face and a front along Maryland and then have an area off of the street that gets people you know kind of out of the hustle and bustle where they can sit spend time it's really more of an informal gathering space but. It has the potential to be a space where there could be small events or gatherings held, but really trying to blend the hardscape with the landscape to create that environment that people are going to be excited to spend time in. So buffering the edges with landscape on a majority of the perimeter. We have one area where we're kind of engaging the existing edge of the property on sort of the east side, but really using the landscape to create seating raise that landscape create seating and create buffers and create seasonal interest in addition to the spaces for people so the plan's nice but it always helps to have a little bit of the renderings and the perspective to go so this is the view from Maryland looking into the park so you know bringing that landscape forward and really providing a street front but then inviting people back in and using that live wall on the back of the property, not only to help sort of soften and buffer that back edge, but to really give a backdrop as you're looking into the park. And our plan is to have plantings on that that are seasonal in a way so there is some variation depending upon the time of year that you might be visiting the park or even just driving by um the sign we talked about here in the front our intention is that it will match the material and the the aesthetic of the new sign out at okinawa park and we've got an image of that coming up but you know really engaging the sidewalk engaging the bike lane but then also you know inviting people into the park and there is an elevation change so we have a little bit of the walk We have a ramp to walk that will bring people up to the main sort of gathering space in the park but trying to address some of that that great transition in the space, and then we have the rest of it with the wall so looking from Maryland. kind of zoom coming coming a little bit closer sort of looking still that same view from from Maryland but kind of coming into the seating area, so you know our idea is to have tables that would be there different. Sizes of seating to for groups like that that are more structured seating, but then also use the seat walls to be informal seating and bench seating perimeter where we can engage that backspace as well. uh so that was a day shot and this is kind of the night shot so they you know our our goal is to the plan is to have lighting um in this space whether it's sort of indirect lighting sort of embedded in the walls and sort of down lighting and then highlighting some of the plant material as well but we can't so sort of bring the space to life at night and then the materials The pavers for the walkway and then the decomposed granite for the seating areas, looking at formed concrete where we can. with some sort of structured seating on top of that, sort of clean lines is the intention. On the side with the gathering there is existing brick within the buildings and also in the walls so trying to match and blend that and bring that forward as we go. And then the landscape itself is really focused on sort of the pollinator opportunities that are there with plant material, seasonal plant material. The live wall will be something that probably is not the pollinator component, but a lot of the other ground-based planting would be. And then this is that sign that we're going to replicate for this park. And then planting, as Anissa mentioned, we're still in the document development phase, so we haven't finalized a planting plan and that is something that we can provide when we get to that point, but thinking about planting and we're talking with MDC as well about opportunities when it comes to the plant palette that we're using. So just some general thoughts about trees from honey locust and heptacodium, you know evergreen, so semi-evergreen with boxwoods in the seasonal interest and then really thinking about perennials and grasses, you know, the milkweed being part of that pollinator landscape along with the rudbeckia and the yarrow. And then mixing in some, you know, seasonal grasses with whether it's bluestem or some of the other grasses that have that spring, fall, and summer interest. So a varied palette, but one that's going to be fairly consistent because of the space that we have. It's not a large planting area, but really trying to think about whether it's native or semi-native, and then the idea of that pollinator component coming through as well. So that's sort of an overview of the project and the materials. I can go back to the site plan if there's any questions.

So yeah, so it will, the intent is that it will have interest throughout the year. So it's not going to necessarily be green or all of it green all year. There may be plants that have their times of year where they're in bloom or they're more in color, they have fall color. The maintenance side of it, so we're currently looking at different providers for that product to find the best fit for it. Our intention right now is that there will be irrigation either embedded or adjacent to that can be used to irrigate the wall and then it'll just be maintained like a landscape in a park.

maintain that?

Yes. We'll do that in-house.

I believe that we'll maintain it. And, you know, I think Jay said this, but one of the systems that we're looking at really comes in these squares and you can have seasonal color that runs through it. You don't have to have the same plants in every area. Yeah,

you can change it out.

Yeah.

Correct. Yeah, that's the intent is that the lighting is intended to provide security level lighting and then sort of emphasis, areas of emphasis within the space. So it's not a lighting plan that looks to overly illuminate the space. It's to give that level of security and visibility for the park. And there may be step down lighting depending on you know, hours of operation for the park and, you know, the amount of lighting that would be maintained overnight. But it's security and highlighting areas of emphasis.

No, it would probably be a complete rectangle. So it probably wouldn't... PB Harmon Zuckerman, Change its size. It might just be the perspective of the, of the view here, it would be a consistent side this dimension kind of that time that PB Harmon Zuckerson, The whole

I thought I was muted. I had a question about the living wall as well. I know we did one at Wash U in the main social space there and that's pretty heavily maintained and it is irrigated inside. So the question I have about the wall, is there a design for it that's based on anything or is it just

As far as the aesthetic look of it or the product itself? I thought right now is that it's more abstract. It's more about finding the right mix of vegetation and color interest. We haven't fully designed what that looks like just yet. That's part of the documentation we've got now.

Okay. I was just curious because it seems like it could be an opportunity to highlight something.

Yeah, and we've talked about are there some elements that we can bring into that. There wouldn't be more than just planting, but right now the idea that it's a vegetative wall and the aesthetic of it is something we'll work through a little bit

more. Yeah, I had some questions about security too with the evergreens. Evergreens are easy to hide behind, but if it's well lit, you probably will be okay. And then I had a question about the materials. It seems like there's a plethora of different kinds of materials going on. Do you think this would benefit a little bit more from being more simple in design since it's so tiny?

Yes, I think we were showing... So on this slide here where we showed the different types of formed concrete, the different... HAB-Jacques Juilland, We wouldn't be doing all of that. HAB-Jacque Juilland, You were just showing the different the different opportunities so whether it's it would be one style consistently we wouldn't. HAB-Masyn

Moyer- Just you know what the what the plant stand out more.

HAB-Danny Teodoru, Exactly it

was kind of a tough, it is a tough site because the two buildings look so different from each other, one is the old red brick and then the new library building is a whole different color so. I think they've sort of tried to work with that and have a little bit of the gray of the library, but some of the red of the church. So

it's been a challenge. And not really try to really disrupt that edge either. Keep that consistent with the materials that are on that mist edge with the church.

What is the base that the decomposed granite will be on?

That's a good question. Well, from a detail standpoint, So

yeah,

it's a compacted aggregate base.

Is it pervious or impervious?

Yeah, even though it's compacted granular, it's technically still an impervious surface, and that's how we've quantified it in our calculations. Okay.

No, I think it's going to be pretty. I'm happy to see another little pocket park going in.

Yeah, we're excited about it. It'll be a space where the materials and sort of the form of it is different than more of a residential neighborhood pocket park, which is fun. Yeah.

Well, and then I had a comment about the sign. The signage seems like it's too large. I think people are going to get that it's a

park.

Yeah, it just, and it seems very, again, yet another material. But that's, you know, could it be something that is etched into the concrete as, you That's just a comment. I think it would be part of the wall itself, which would be less in your face.

Yeah, I think that's a good comment. Good to think about that. Yeah, we were trying to, we thought it'd be nice for this level to keep it consistent with other park signage, but yeah, this is a unique space, so maybe there's a way to incorporate it more into the wall material.

yeah it's like that little triangle park that i did with my students that's down hanley and bottom there's no sign on that one

um no this looks great and i think it's going to be a nice addition and it will help with the um with the bike lane and making that more accessible

that's all i have

Yeah, I have a few comments. To follow up with Carolyn, that sign should definitely go. It looks like something that should be on an office building. And this is a green space for a park. I don't even know why you need to advertise it. Pretty obvious what it is. It's just clutter. The second thing I look at the front, it looks like you are advertising. This is like a bicycle repair station. Yes. On the right side?

Well, as a longtime biker, I will say that 99% of all the repairs are because of flats and you do them where they occur. And I would rather see that as a place to park and lock the bike than having a vertical pole so you could put the bike up And it'll be rarely used, I think. Locking up bikes is still a premium, you know, and the more room you have for it would probably be better used. The next thing I would say is the living wall at Washington U is magnificent and beautiful. And if yours becomes anything like Washington use, it will be a real magnet for people to come and visit this place. You have a real great idea and a great opportunity. I hope we really do something with it. No pressure, Jay. The other thing I would say is Can you go back to the night picture? I'm always hammering on how dead Clayton is at night. We have an opportunity here. Tell me what this brings to Clayton at night and how long will it be open?

Well, I will answer how long it'll be open. Our parks hours are from 6 a.m. until 10 p.m. They're established by ordinance. So the only exception is Shell Park. Shell Park opens at 5 and stays open until 11. So that's as the hours for it. I think we envision that people who are maybe at the library will come over and read books or some of the new residential that's going to be right across the street. We envision that. We've talked to the library director about doing different kinds of programs in there, maybe poetry readings. book readings for kids, those types of things that we really envision it as something people will stop along and eat lunch or eat dinner or meet friends for a drink or whatever. But then doing some programming in there related to reading.

Well, you know what? The world is beyond reading. You could even play Kumbaya music, as far as I'm concerned. That'd be great too. To provide something to attract and keep people at night after they eat dinner or when they take a walk.

This is

the perfect space. And you know, it's very attractive. It really is. Now, the tables, they look like they're fixed. Is this your vision of about a half a dozen tables?

Yeah, they would not be attached, but they would be pretty heavy. They'd be hard to move, but they could be moved.

You know, the closest thing that comes to my mind, if you go on South Grand, there's a vacant spot there. It used to be a building, I guess. And it was removed, and they put a bunch of concrete seats. And the far back is like a little entertainment stage. And it works. Now that's a real commercial area right there. And I'm not saying we want to copy it. This was much more attractive. But the idea is they do something with it. They try to bring life to it at night. And what I don't want to see is a bunch of tables And a few people there are sitting and that's it. Then they just go home, you know? I mean, I hope we're moving past that now. And you guys, Patty, doing great with this. And Jay, I mean, it's kind of a nice design. I just want to make sure we give it life at night. And that's got a lot to do with programming and make sure the design lends itself to programming.

Chris Wanner, Now that sounds great yeah and the flexibility of space that's something we wanted to keep in mind too is how can we set this up where there's options for how people use it they're you know. Chris Wanner, Having tables and chairs that are fairly stationary but still movable to to create space for different activities is something we want to keep in mind to so. George Malavasic, yeah

you're right you'd have a ice cream vendor there every so often. George Malavasic ,

A little trio set up they're playing music. George Malavasick,

Something to bring kids and families and whoever right.

George Malavasik, yeah we're excited it was lots of lots of potential so yeah. George

Malavasics, that's a nice design I congratulate you guys.

I have no additional comments related to the park itself, but Patty, if you wanted to talk a little bit more about some of the discussions that were held on activities within there, I think that would help Bob know that CCF was looking at this as a more holistic approach.

Yes. I kind of mentioned that we've met with the library a couple of different times and even talked to the church about using it for different programs. HAB-Juliette Boone, Things that that Bob was talking about is very similar to what we anticipate this being a place where we get one of the things we're still working through is the name of the park and so parks and rec Commission will be talking about that tonight and then soliciting ideas for that. HAB-Julie Petersen, You'll probably get notified by by the intent is to notify all our other committees and let them know there's been a lot of discussion about this being really related to literature. There's some concepts of putting different informational plaques up on that far wall, the big brick wall there that Jay is showing you. We could use that to display things that would be about different artists or authors or playwrights and then kind of tie it into that. So there's been a lot of discussion about how to utilize it. I think it will see some good programming People have been very supportive of that and then like the concept. Okay. George, is that good?

Thank

you.

Ellen?

Yes, I do have a question about the bike parking area. Is grass a practical... surface for it

well you know we were very we were challenged by the impervious surfacing um and we believe that it'll work out there um there are two bike there there are two bike racks there i maybe bob you can tell that there were there was locations to lock up your bike We went with a really small bike repair station, and that's also got a water fountain, which we did put pavers around that because that's what we were worried about it. But we also don't think that there'll be a ton of traffic. It'll just be people with bikes going in there to use that part of it.

Yeah, the way it's set up, it's sort of a protected area. So there's not going to be a lot of foot traffic through there other than individuals who are sort of parking and removing their bikes. So from a balancing, like Patty said, of the impervious, we thought that that was an adequate surface to put there and sort of balance the other side of the park as well. So is it ideal? Maybe not, but we think it's adequate because it's protected and because it's not Don D' A walk through space that that that's a surfacing that we could we could incorporate.

Karen Hollweg, Okay, I understand the calculations with pervious and impervious would it be possible to use a pervious paving there but.

Karen Hollweg , My understanding in residential of that previous papers don't count.

Don D' yeah that's correct yeah we would be an option, but when it comes to the. Don D' To the calculation yeah impervious paper previous paving is not an acceptable. Don D' material when it comes to doing that the the area calculations so so we're going to be careful and how we do it where we do it and have it focused on that area but yep that would be an option.

Karen Hollweg, Okay, the other thing that I would like as a resident right around the corner. on North Bemiston, is a wider sidewalk. Could you widen the sidewalk somewhat along that area at the south border of the park? Because the sidewalk from North Bemiston to North Central is narrow. It's one person and it's not a pleasant feeling. It would be nice at the park here to open it up, to widen that sidewalk so that I feel invited into the space, a more friendly space. And I'd be willing to entertain the idea of maxing out what the plan commission, the ARB is allowed to grant you on the impervious coverage. Because I think the pedestrian experience is important in how they relate to the park. Is the park part of the pedestrian experience or is it just an appendage that I turn right or turn left and walk into the park. So my priority would be to see more paving area.

Along the sidewalk?

Yeah.

Yeah, we're right at the I think our current calculation is about 59%, so we're right at that 60% threshold that's allowable. So we could definitely go back and look and see how much more we could gain there. That is something, yeah, that transition to the sidewalk is an important one. We do widen that walk, the center walk. It's hard to probably tell in the graphic, but it's narrower at the top. Hal Hallstein, And then it widens out as you get down to the sidewalk to try to encourage that sort of invitation into the park. Hal Hallstein, But looking at if we could do that to sort of maximize that percentage we could but right now yeah we're pretty close to that threshold so now. Karen

Hollweg, So I also think one of the things you mentioned, we are matching up the sidewalk to the new sidewalk that the library put in.

will be wider than it is now. Once you get past us going east, you're going to get back to where the sidewalk is narrower in front of the church. But we are matching up with what the library has already done, which is a little bit bigger.

It's still not that wide.

Yeah, I think it's like five feet. Walking along...

Maryland, at Maryland Walk, at the condos there. That sidewalk is really pleasant, inviting. It's a nice experience. But beyond that, the sidewalks are, you know, one person and if you've got a dog as shown in the It isn't a dog. I'm looking at a small

computer

screen.

There will be for sure dogs

out there. It's a narrow sidewalk and then if you have someone coming in the other direction, it's almost confrontational in the experience. Whatever you can do to widen it and If pervious paving is allowed in commercial, this is not a private residential area here. It is commercial. You know, regardless of the zoning, it's feeling is commercial. So that's all I have. Thank

you.

Ira? Yeah, let me start where Helen left off. You know, I think this, the issue of the sidewalk is always an issue for me. I think the sidewalks do always need to be wider. I'm not sure it'll help just to widen it there, but my consideration about that was we've got bikers and if bikers are going to use the park, it looks like there's a curb there and that there would be a curb for them to have to go up over, which means they'd have to stop on their in the bike lane in order to get them into the park. So not only for the pedestrian, as Helen is pointing out, but also for the biker, for him to feel as though, you know, as they're approaching the park, that it's easy for them to access the park as they're riding on the bike lane. So if there's a way to to take that curb out so that they don't have to stop and then and then go oh okay i could go right or left and uh well in this case would be right along that that side but uh anyway i i just thought that would be much more convenient if there was a way for them to be able to just ride into the park as they're riding along the uh the bike lane um one comment jay another one is um I'll just go through my comments as they come. Of course, I like Bob's comments. I always like Bob's comments, this one especially about entertainment and having something there. I don't see any platforms or anything for doing that. I don't where there could be a setup for a band or anything, but it sure would be nice if we could have one there because that would draw people just to hear music. They'd know, oh, there's music over there. Oh, yeah, let's go walk over there and see what's going on. And then we could have that part really become much more useful for us, as Bob said, after dinner entertainment. The lighting is, of course, very key. It looked like people were actually reading in your picture. I mean, I don't know that you're going to have great lighting for reading. Yeah, I mean, that would be fine. Bob's comment about the bikes and you're not going to fix a flat until you have one, obviously. I mean, Bob, you're right about that. I don't think that's necessary for us to have a maintenance station. But I do think it would be good to have air. Anybody who bikes Forest Park knows where the air is. There's a little air station sitting right behind the perk in Forest Park. I don't know anyone who doesn't know that it's there because we all go there. First time of spring, we all go there to go get our bike or tires filled up. And so I think that would be an attraction also for bikers if there was air available for them. So I would strongly suggest we do that as opposed to anything else. I would also hope that you keep in mind handicap access. I just, the tables just didn't seem to be handicapped access in terms of someone on a wheelchair being able to pull up to one of those tables. Just think in terms of a wheelchair person and what they need. And of course, they're being able to have access throughout the area there so that there's avenues for them to get through. If you could just think about that when you set up tables. Did you hear me on that? Sure. I appreciate that. So I think that's, oh yeah, as far as the sign goes, my understanding is of course we don't, we're not gonna have anyone who's gonna have a right to their name on the park, but we're gonna come up with a name for it. And if that's the case, then we can have that name on it forever. So I think etching it into the stone work would be, I think quite much more attractive than anything that I've seen on the screen.

That's a great idea.

We did that. If you've been at the center, check out how it's etched into the center of Clayton. It didn't even occur to me to do that here. It would make sense.

Yeah, I think that would be much more attractive. And then I think that's, oh yeah, it's that wall you just showed us for maybe putting on artists or whatever. If that could be used for movies, that would also be quite attractive, an attraction for an evening, movie night for a kid. So I don't know if that would be usable, but it would be great if it was. Okay. Those are my comments, thanks.

I don't have anything to add. I'm very familiar with these plans, and I think we got a lot of good feedback tonight. So thank

There's a lot of great feedback and we appreciate everyone's thought into the project and the input that you provided. So we're excited to move it forward and see what we can refine and get this built and open to the community. So it'll be a great space.

I'd just like to say thank you for doing this, Jay and Patty. This is fantastic. I think it's going to be a real plus. I know, Patty, you're leaving. It brings a tear to my eye or both eyes. I will miss you desperately. So I just hope we use this properly and I hope we remember that this was your final project.

Thank you.

I'll meet you all there next June for an opening.

Right. That's a

deal. It's one of the things that makes my staff crazy is I get to the end pretty quickly. I'm like, I can think about the opening, but we got a lot of steps still. So thank you. Thank you. Great input. Some great input. I like some of these ideas. So we will incorporate them.

I'll make a motion to approve with the staff recommendation.

Thanks. Yeah, thank you, everyone.

This is for the review of the design and materials associated with the construction of a new covered patio slash carport. The 9033 square foot property is a corner lot located east of University Lane north of Arundel place. In November of 2021, the Board of Adjustment granted a 53-foot variance from a required front yard accessory structure setback of 60 feet and a 1.3-foot variance from the required rear yard accessory structure set back for the construction of a new covered patio slash carport. The applicant is proposing the construction of this 316 square foot pavilion, excuse me, carport adjacent to the existing garage as well as minor improvements to the existing garage. The proposed location is screened from the west and north by the existing wood fence. The proposed carport utilizes the same building materials as the existing home. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed carport is compatible with the neighborhood character. The primary building material is a dark brown wood to match the existing home. The carport is supported by brick piers with cut stone caps, also to match the principal structure. The existing doors on the west elevation of the existing garage will be replaced with a single fixed door and an end swing door unit with exterior screen doors. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed carport is compatible in terms of mass, height, and design with the existing home and surrounding neighborhood and our recommendation is to approve as submitted.

There you go. Sorry. I can start. I'm Alan Ruby with Donna Box's office. We're the architects on this project. As Anissa has already said, we've tried to make this match existing materials on the house. I don't know if you can see on some of those photos on the second page of the submittal, but there's a lot of dark wood, some brackety things and those kind of elements on their existing house. So we've tried to pull some of that back. It also matches a lot of the the darker wood materials that are on that existing detached structure back there. But we've also tried to understate it as much as we can. That's why it's ended up being more of a flat structure than something that lines up with that adjacent structure because we don't want to overwhelm that back corner. So that's been our goal here, and I think we've achieved that.

Well, that's still in the works. Sliding gate is what we'd like to do. There's a gate there now because the existing detached structure It was originally built as a garage, so there's a gate there now. We're still exploring what we want to put there, and we're kind of under the impression that we have to come back to you for that for a fence permit anyway, so we we kind of put that note on there to indicate to you that there will be a gate of some time of some kind, but we don't know yet. I think John and Suzanne would agree with me with that, that we're still thinking about that. Yeah.

Yeah. We've been walking around the alleys and looking at what other people do to access, you know, to pull a car into their driveway, which we, since we don't use our garage for a car, we've never really had to face that basic question. And a lot of people do use those sliding doors. Those sliding gates, they're discreet and they're on rails. And then a couple of the other things that we've seen are things that are gates that open on wheels sort of outward. And so we're just weighing what would really kind of basically look the best there since we're on the corner.

Yes, but probably not every day. Probably during, you know, seasonally, certainly when there's ice and whatnot. And then also we would pull our cars in there when we go out of town.

Agreed. We're really very pleased with his design.

Karen Hollweg, My computer makes so much noise I didn't want to have it on all the time, so I actually did not have any comments on it looks good. Roger Spreen ,

Espinoza, Ellen. No comment.

I'll make a motion to approve as submitted?

Aye. Opposed?

as we can get out there, right?

Okay.

We have shovels and hammers in hand.

very much.

This is for the review of the design and materials associated with the installation of three skylights on the front sloped roof. The subject property is located north of Buckingham Drive, east of its intersection with Glenridge Avenue. Each skylight is approximately two and a half feet in width and 3.81 feet in height. The staff report notes that the skylights are white with an aluminum clad wood frame, but they will be brown to match the roof shingles on the existing home. Due to the visibility from the street, care should be taken to ensure that lights do not flash or reflect from the skylights. With the recommendation noted below, staff is of the opinion that the location of the proposed skylights is acceptable and compatible with the home in the surrounding area. Our recommendation is to approve with the following condition to be addressed prior to issuance of building permit. The condition being that no lights shall be placed in the walls of the skylights. And that concludes my presentation.

I don't.

It was written up incorrectly, the color of the exterior material. I misinterpreted. The window itself will be white, but that's under the exterior cladding, which is a brown or bronze color, which will blend nicely into the shingle color.

No, I think they're a great idea. I have used... Karen Hollweg, That exact brand on projects and. Karen Hollweg, They work well, so I think it's good. Dave

George. George Tyson, Is the third floor of this building finish the area within the ease. Dave KuntZ,

We do intend to finish it.

Okay um. Is any consideration given about moving some of these to the backside? I know for aesthetic purposes, three across the front, but it looks like there's room to get some of those on the backside of this house instead of on the front.

There is an addition on the backside of this house with an overlapping roof would be pretty difficult. And for the proposed layout that we're working on, the skylight on the backside would end up in a bathroom and in a walk-in closet, which would not really give the natural light that we're looking for for the main area up there.

What is the height of that ceiling or the proposed height when you're looking at that on the third floor, the attic

area? It'll be close to eight feet. It's a fairly steep pitch, so there's a lot of ceiling height in there.

And dormers were not considered as well?

We did not consider those, no. The skylights are much more cost effective.

I didn't have any comments.

Bob? Out of curiosity, are you fixing the third floor to make it into a large bedroom for the kids or a play area or to lock them up there?

I think it'll be more of a third floor bedroom area.

Yes, that's the plan.

Okay. Seems very nice.

Thank

you.

Ira? Love skylights. They're a great addition to the house. Good luck with that. I have no questions. Thank

Yes, that's understood. Yes.

Make a motion to approve staff recommendation.

Aye.

Okay, thank you, we appreciate

Okay, this is for the review of the design and materials associated with the construction of a single family residence. The 6,303 square foot site is located on the east side of North Brentwood Boulevard between Maryland Avenue and Westmoreland Avenue. On June 21st, 2021, the plan commission and architectural review board reviewed and approved a three-story single family residence with an attached front entry four car garage The applicant wishes to modify the design of the single family home. The proposed modifications include first that the primary building material will remain brick, but instead of a red brick and off white brick will be used along with buff limestone. And second, that the window configuration above the garage door on the front elevation will be modified to include two windows with a French door and balcony. The approved primary building material for the The proposed home was red brick with buff colored stone accent materials. The approved secondary materials were limestone, James Hardy trim and stucco board located primarily on the left side elevation surrounding the bay windows. The proposed modifications still feature brick as a primary building material, however, the brick will be painted off-white to match the proposed buff limestone. Additionally, where the front elevation was formerly a majority brick with limestone accents, the proposed front elevation will now consist primarily of buff limestone. Staff believes that the plan is compatible in terms of mass height and design with surrounding structures, and our recommendation is to approve as submitted.

The only change here is the material, like she said. Everything else is the same. It's under construction right now, actually. There's an owner, somebody wants to buy the property, and these are their suggestions or their requests. They would like to have the limestone front veneer. And as you can see on the renderings, the brick on the sides, like she said, was going to be painted to match the limestones. And then we're going to a black slate roof instead of the asphalt shingles, which we had in the first version. And the balcony. And the balcony, yeah. So above the front door, there's a new set of French doors with a black wrought iron balcony to match the black windows and doors, which was the approved version before.

I didn't have any comments on this one.

I do have a question. Is the stucco on the left side elevation, is that stucco board or true stucco?

Stucco board.

Yeah, stucco board. It's actually right here. It's going to be painted to match the brick and the limestone as well.

Okay. Are the stucco board panels large enough? I mean, you will have seams.

It's the same stucco board that's on 136 North Brentwood. It's exact match.

So there will be boards over the joints.

It'll be battens over the joints, correct.

Okay, my concern is that there are too many materials. When you look at the left side elevation on Cheat A7, the predominant material is the stucco board, then the brick and then the limestone. And then of course you have glass as a fourth material with the windows. I know that older buildings, older residences have limestone fronts and then when they turn the corner, they switch to brick and it's all painted to match. But here you've got a large area of stucco board in addition That left side elevation, when I just think about adding the battens to cover the joints of the stucco board, that makes it even more visually chaotic.

Well, with all of the materials being the same color, we felt like it was more of a texture thing you're going to be seeing. And they're also box-based. Yeah, so I guess we also felt like since stuck was also considered a masonry material, it's a full masonry house. I understand what you're saying, but I feel like the color being all the same across the face of it, you're just seeing a texture really, a difference between the surfaces.

And again, we had that on the other house too. We've got brick, stone, and stucco board. And again, on box phase, all around Clayton, stucco board is a heightened material that a lot of people, you know, other options that are much cheaper, you know, outside of throwing in steel and doing limestone or brick box base, this is the next best thing. And I think that'd be pretty over the top to try to do anything but stucco board. Most people just do hardy. So I think it's pretty elevated. I think it blends in nicely with the atmosphere of the houses in the neighborhood that we're creating over there.

Whether it's true stucco or stucco board, when you look at that left side elevation all there's three dominant materials and i know clayton describes as the primary material and the secondary material on that elevation it's hard unless you take you know a scale and kind of measure okay the brick the stucco is more than the brick and both taken individually, they are more than the limestone. But there's too many dominant materials on that elevation. If the base, the stucco, if there were more windows, then your eye would not be drawn as much to that flat stuck on surface. So other than that, you know, I have no problem with the light color, the contrast and the rest of the design. It's just the exterior materials.

Sure. Thank you. And we can't really, I mean, in terms of a townhouse style home. I think we have more windows on the side of our houses facing, you know, another home 10 feet away than probably anybody has ever done in Clayton on both houses. So I, you know, we wouldn't want to add more windows. We actually intentionally went through and made sure these windows didn't line up as little as we could, but you know, I think with the the toughest of that situation over there and what we're trying to do, build these homes so close together. I think we did a pretty good job. So, but thank you for that.

Nothing further.

First of all, Helen, I love it when, as an architect, you read the play. It's just like watching a mechanic lift the hood of a car and then tearing apart the engine to see what's really there. Only a good architect can do that. I admire you for that. Thank you. Other than that, I don't have any comments. I can't top what Helen just did.

Make a motion to approve and submit it.

Nay.

I would say a year. The way materials are, that would be great.

good luck with it and glad to hear you

That's correct. They requested a table until the December 20th meeting.

make a motion to table item number five to the next meeting on December 20th.

The 10,200 square foot site is located on the south side of Kingsbury Boulevard between Gay Avenue and Cranham Drive. The property has a zoning designation of R2 Single Family Dwelling District and is located in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. The proposed project consists of demolition of the existing house and the construction of a two-story 4,809 square foot single family residence with an attached rear entry for a car barrage. The height of the proposed residence is 28 feet, 11 and 1 eighth inches as measured from the average existing grade to the mean height of the roof. In terms of compatibility, the project meets the setback height and impervious coverage requirements of the R2 district and the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District, and all AC units and trash containers are adequately screened. The existing impervious coverage on the site is 39.3%. And the proposed plan increases this coverage to 52.7%. The proposed runoff is 0.63 cubic feet per second, which represents a 0.06 CFS increase. A drywall in the rear yard is sized to handle the increased runoff and a six inch tall micro berm is located in the southeast corner of the property. The Public Works Department finds the stormwater plan acceptable. The proposed landscape plan provides a surplus of 157 square feet of canopy coverage. The applicant has proposed 11 new trees, four of which are native for a total of 36.4%. The height, setbacks and impervious coverage are in conformance with the requirements. Stormwater will be adequately managed on site and the landscape plan features plantings that are appropriate for the size of the site. Staff is of the opinion that the project meets the criteria for site plan approval. Our recommendation is to approve with the following conditions to be reviewed and approved by staff prior to the issuance of a building permit. First, to ensure the future maintenance and operation of the drywall, the applicant shall record the approved site plan with St. Louis County and submit proof of recording to the city. Second, removal of the trees along the neighboring property lines must be coordinated with the neighboring properties and documentation of such agreements must be submitted to planning staff prior to the issue of the demolition permit. That concludes my presentation.

was gonna start by presenting the overall picture on the side and then Dave was gonna address the drainage like he always does.

Yeah, so this is a new home on a lot that slopes to the rear. with an at-grade rear entry tuck under garage. The trash is located off that driveway turnaround. You can see Dave showing that to you. And we have our air conditioners over on the right side of the property. You could see that on our nice landscape plan prepared by Baxter Gardens. And I think Dave is going to talk about the drainage on the site. He's made one of his nice diagrams up to explain that tonight.

All right, so I'm David Volz and I'm gonna talk about the drainage. I switched north on you from the landscape plan. So on this drawing, north is actually up and Kingsbury Boulevard is right here. You can see the driveway coming in with the rear entry tucked under right here. And basically all of the drainage flows from Kingsbury towards the southeast. So this area is where all the water currently flows. I'm going to go to a drainage area map. There's two drainage area maps. Let's come out a little bit. So on the left here, that's the existing drainage area map. And you can see the area in blue. What we did is this southern property right here actually is bisected by a property line. So what we did, even though all the water flows to this line, we wanted to see how much effect at this property and how much effect at his property. So in the current conditions, 0.2 CFS cubic feet of water flows onto this property and 0.36 flows onto this property. And what we're proposing is over here on the right that we're going to greatly reduce the amount that flows to this site. We're going to reduce it to 0.02. And then the piece, the water that flows here is going to be reduced to 0.34. The way we're doing this reduction is the house, all of the house is going to go into a wet well right here, basically, which will fill up with water. It basically will detain the water so that there's no additional runoff coming to the south. And one thing I do want to say is Basically, these two drainage areas come together right here anyways, and they flow onto a lot right here. So currently, really the most affected person is right here, and he's getting about 0.38 cubic feet of water. I'm sorry, 0.56 cubic feet of water, and so we're greatly reducing the amount of water that affects that property owner down there by detaining all the water that comes off the roofs, and those are done by the gutters. They're all piped into the wet well, which is right here. So with that, I'd be happy to answer any questions on this or the cyclone.

Actually, if you look on the Google Earth photo, you can actually see a drainage area that comes across this guy's lot. And then in his front yard where it goes to his front yard, he actually has routed the water through there. So I'm actually happy. That's one of the reasons why we over detained because we probably didn't need to do this much. But we basically over detained this just to prevent more water from it to actually reduce the amount of water that affected him. So, and the other thing that I wanted to point out is these are the micro berms that we talked about. What we don't wanna do is concentrate any flow on him. So these are small berms with little openings in them to basically to slow the water down before it goes onto his property. And that was the purpose of those.

I remember doing them on one project where it was a similar thing where we had water that was concentrating onto a property that was next to us. I couldn't tell you where that was, but we did a similar type thing where we just put, it's basically a six inch berm just to slow the water down. That

one, I don't remember the address either, but I do remember that.

How close are the air conditioning units to the property line? I didn't measure it.

They are about six and a half feet. The setback is six and a half, so they're probably seven and a half feet or so.

And then how are you addressing the removal of trees that are not actually surveyed on your property?

There is screening around the air conditioner units and it's shown on our architectural plans.

I meant the tree. There's a tree to the, I guess that's south. If you could scroll up further, it says to be removed, but it looks like it's over the property line. HAB-Juliette Boone, Two of them actually one is on and then the one to the right is looks like it's outside of your line. HAB-Judy Nogg-

yeah I understand that where marker. HAB-Julie Petersen, player and Scott are going to reach an agreement with the neighbors as staff requested on those trees to be removed that are right on the property lines.

HAB-Masyn

Moyer- it's really all I have. And we do have screening of those air conditioners on our sheet eight five of the architecture plans.

no comment. Okay.

No comments. Helen?

No comments.

I'll make a motion to approve with the two staff recommendations.

Once again, this is for 8416 Kingsbury Boulevard. Review of the design and materials associated with a new single-family residence. In terms of compatibility, the homes located west of Forsyth Boulevard in Clayton Gardens are a mix of one to two stories in height and are constructed of brick with siding as a secondary material. The basic massing of the proposed two-story home is articulated on all sides with windows and doors. The proposed massing and appearance are similar to other newly constructed homes in the area. As required by the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District, to avoid tall blocky building forms, new structures shall incorporate a transition in height and scale through one of six possible techniques. The proposed house is not significantly taller than the existing homes to either side and steps down to meet the height of the home to the east. An approved mitigation technique is stepping down to meet the approximate height of the adjacent structure. Existing homes within the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District have traditionally been dominated by the use of standard size brick in a variety of red tones. However, the brick has been painted in some instances including recently constructed homes along Kingsbury Boulevard. The proposed house utilizes white brick, white painted brick as the primary building material. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed building materials are compliant with the design district requirements and are compatible with the neighborhood. There is a nine foot wide paved driveway which is proposed on the east side of the home that leads to the proposed at grade rear attached garage. The proposed driveway is comprised of exposed aggregate concrete. The project as proposed is in conformance with the requirements of the R2 district, the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District and the architectural review guidelines. Staff is of the opinion that the design is compatible in terms of mass height and design with existing nearby homes. And our recommendation is to approve as submitted.

I don't have a lot of additional comments. This is a painting brick home. It's predominantly brick. And we have a box bay feature on the front and side of the home. The house is built with hip roofs and two gables on the front elevation. We do have limestone trim around the windows and lots of windows on the sides and rear of the home, as I know Clayton likes. The roof will be charcoal gray architectural shingles, and we think it'll be a nice complement to the neighborhoods.

which is

This is the correct rendering you're seeing on the screen. We submitted some small revisions between staff review and the second staff review And the rendering you're seeing has the limestone surrounds. That's the correct one.

Well, I think the emphasis of the house is going to be that entry door with the archway, with the lanterns, with the numbers on it and the sidewalk going to it, I don't think it's altogether untypical for a porch gable to be different than another gable on the front of the house. And we think it looks great. I know Blair and Scott and I put a lot of thought into this home and I think it'll be an attractive addition to the neighborhood.

I like it. I think it looks good. No other comments, just well done. Okay.

George? No comments, well

didn't have any comments on it.

Looks great. No comments.

I think he's having a hard time connecting.

computer problem.

he said to say

thank

Thank you.

I'll make a motion to approve this submitted.

will have a few things on the agenda. TAB, The expansion of the entertainment district and the downtown district overlay will both be on that agenda. TAB, As well as a few other projects that have been submitted recently so i'm looking to be a pretty full agenda Steve I know we discussed it on the phone a little bit, but I think your presentation will be in January just with how many projects i'm anticipating being on that meeting

No, nothing further.

I spent five days over Thanksgiving in Austin, the city of Austin. And it really was a prime example of a city that is in the midst of developing some really very unique and beautiful architecture. And so if any of you have a chance and have not been down to Austin, see Google's new building or Facebook's new building. These are wonders to behold because I know we're always talking about wanting to see unique kinds of architecture in our city. And, you know, I think if somebody was wondering, gee, what does that mean? What does it mean when we say we'd like to see something that's impressive or unique? I think Austin seems to have a whole bunch of those. You know, Chicago has the 150-year-old buildings, but boy, Austin has those new ones, and some of them are really magnificent, and the skyline is just looking incredible. So... I'd encourage anyone who has a free weekend, just fly down there and enjoy Austin.

No, you're absolutely right. So the community conference is the first step in a PUD process. And so they are going to move forward with a PUD. I believe it's a three-story Sterling Bank on the first floor to replace what's currently there. And then I believe it's 15 stories of multifamily. There'll be high-end apartments that will be above. the proposed three-story bank. So with this community conference, this is a time for everyone notified within 1,000 feet and the community generally to give the developer any comments, feedback, ask questions, and get answers for those things. It's their first presentation to the community. So if anyone from the commission or the Board of Aldermen does attend, we tend not to participate in this particular meeting. This is set up by the developer, run by the developer, and really a chance for them to engage the community. In the end, they'll put together a report that will summarize the community conference and they'll submit that along with their application package when they make a formal PUD proposal. I also don't know what this particular project, Susan, maybe Anissa knows whether or not they're going to come to the plan commission ARB for conceptual review prior to their formal submittal of the PUD, which we see with a lot of development. So yeah, I'm definitely excited to see what comes out of that meeting on Wednesday. When, where, and who's the developer? It's at the center of Clayton. It will be at seven o'clock. Green Street is the developer on that. in conjunction with Sterling Bank, who's doing the first three stories.

Do you know who the

project manager is on that one at Green Street? Is it Joel Oliver? That I do not know. I could try to pull it up here.

I'll find

out.

Green Street has a pretty good track record of being innovative, willing to go into the city and really do some interesting things. You can see them in the Grove having a big presence.

biker. We should ask him about the

sorry, it's 6 o'clock. Here, let me do this real quick. I will just share this very quickly so everybody can see. This is the invitation postcard that was sent out for it. can zoom in just a little bit. There's a quick rendering of the building. So anybody that got it by mail, this is really all they know is it's six o'clock on Wednesday at the center of Clayton. We'll have the community conference or at least the developer will hold it. And then here's another view. You can see here, this is Bemisden here and this is Carondelet on this side. This is that Sterling Bank over here. You'll have parking that's covered. You can see the pool deck and then the multifamily above. Looks like an interesting

Okay.

That's okay. I don't have anything this evening.

Thank you. Okay. Thank you all very much. Bye-bye. Thank you, Anissa. Okay.