June 21, 2021 — Meeting Transcript

Chairman Steve Lichtenfeld?

Helen DeFayne? Karen Hollweg, Here carolyn gait is here. Karen Hollweg, aldermanic representative Richard lintz.

Karen Hollweg

, Here it manager, David Gipson. Karen

, Here it manager, David gibson. Karen

Hollweg,. Here

George head it. Karen Hollweg,, Bob Denlow.

George head it. Karen Hollweg,, Bob denlo.

Lisa Smith- Are you ready for me. PB

No, I'm sorry. I didn't know if I should present now or for calling on the participants. PB Harmon

Lisa Smith- Okay, I'll go ahead with the staff report. Lisa Smith- Good evening and he's a camera principal planner with the city of Clayton. This is residential exterior alterations at 4 Hillvale Drive. The review of a modification to a previously approved landscaping plan to include a new pergola on the south side and a new deck on the east side of the home. The 20,000 square foot site is located on the corner of Hillvale Drive and Harcourt Drive. The property has a zoning designation of R2 Single Family Dwelling District. At the plan commission architectural view board meeting on March 2nd, 2020, the board reviewed and approved the design of a 4,316 square foot single family residence with a detached 816 square foot three car garage. The height of the approved principal structure is 27 feet and the original project design included two patios, a 119 square foot patio on the south side of the home and a 390 square foot patio located on the east side at the rear of the home. The residence is currently under construction. The applicant proposes the following modifications. The patio on the south side of the home will be replaced with a 187 square foot deck with an aluminum tube trellis. The patio on east side of the home at the rear will be replaced with 410 square foot elevated deck. The landscaping will be revised to include substantially different plantings from the originally approved plan. The northeast corner of the site will be revised to include a 752 square foot area of artificial turf and a 676 square foot area of compacted limestone. The compacted limestone will be bordered on the eastern property line by a dry laid limestone retaining wall approximately two feet in height. A five foot aluminum fence as proposed, formerly a six foot cedar fence was approved. The proposed modifications conform to height and setback requirements of the R2 district. The impervious coverage and structures are located towards the center and northeast corner of the property, leaving larger grassy areas along Hillvale Drive and Harcourt Drive. The courtyard layout of the detached garage located opposite of the north side of the home is maintained. There are no proposed changes to the residence or to the detached garage that were formally approved by the Architectural Review Board. The proposed decks are consistent with the design of other decks in the neighborhood, which are similarly comprised of wood with metal railings. The aluminum overhang proposed for the deck on the south side of the home is observed in other lots throughout the neighborhood. The primary building material for the proposed decks is IPE wood with a 36-inch high black iron handrail. An aluminum tube trellis attached to the residence will hang over the proposed deck on the south side of the home facing Harcourt Drive. The building materials of the residence and the detached garage remain unchanged. The property is a corner lot with two front yards. In association with the previous request for the initial design, a six foot tall cedar fence was proposed. The applicant has proposed a five foot tall aluminum fence in its stead, which will similarly enclose the site and mirror yards. However, the aluminum fence will completely enclose the area behind the garage along the north property line, whereas the cedar fence enclosed only a small portion of the area behind the garage. While the fencing is not located in a front yard setback, it will be visible from the street and conforms to ARB preferences for decorative front yard fences. The reposed deck on the east side of the property will be surrounded by a dry-laid limestone retaining wall approximately two feet in height. Staff is of the opinion that the retaining wall is compatible with the home and the character of the neighborhood. In terms of landscaping, the applicant has proposed a redesign of the landscaping on the property. The formally approved landscape plan met the native tree requirement with 63.6% native and provided a surplus of 7,729 square feet of canopy coverage. The design included an attractive and layered design of trees, shrubs, perennials, and ground cover and is included with a packet for your reference. In contrast, the proposed landscape plan provides a canopy surplus of 10,020 square feet but contains fewer perennials and more shrubs than the former plan. This disparity is most apparent on the north side of the garage where 11 evergreen trees, six perennials, and four shrubs have been removed from the design. The proposed landscape plan does not include any plantings on the north side The mix of grasses, shrubs and perennials on the west side of the proposed garage facing Hillvale Drive have been replaced with a single black dupelo tree. Additionally, there are some outstanding comments from the city's contracted landscape architect that should be addressed prior to issuance of building permit amendments. These comments can cover the relocation of some plantings and a lack of plantings along the garage. As a result of the proposed changes, the impervious coverage has increased from 0.08 acres to 0.14 acres, resulting in an impervious area of 29.79%, which is below the 55% maximum allowed. The project as proposed is in conformance with the requirements of the R2 district and the architectural review guidelines. Staff is of the opinion that the plan is compatible in terms of mass and design with existing nearby homes. However, more layered foundation plantings should be incorporated along the north side of the detached garage. Staff's recommendation is to approve with the following conditions to be reviewed by staff prior to the issuance of the amended building permit. First, the applicant shall adjust the location of the proposed river birch tree to avoid being over the top of the new water and gas utilities. Second, the applicant shall provide foundation plantings along the north side of the detached garage to consist of 11 evergreen trees, small shrubs or perennials and perennials or ground covers. Finally, the applicant shall update the drainage map submitted previously for the property and mitigate any additional runoff. That concludes my report.

Correct. And that's my, can you guys hear me?

Okay, great. It

I do. So yeah, I'm talking to you all on my ear pods. So that's my phone connection. Okay.

Justin Cappos, yeah um I will walk you through just briefly the intent here, and you know, like like any any typical developer of course i've changed my mind here. Justin Cappos , A couple of times and, in addition, you were trying to enhance on certain aspects of certainly the landscape planning, as well as some of the architectural effects and that's done through. a series of moves. And Anissa, you know, she pointed really, she gave a great detailed explanation of what we're doing here. What I did is I took a step back. The original design was done by Baxter Gardens. I have longstanding history with them doing a lot of my residential work. And I made the conscious choice to augment. And I engaged artelope who does some very, I don't know, some more sophisticated type of projects in and around St. Louis. And we came up with a little different strategy as opposed to what I had originally presented to you all. And that's where we created some different layers through different textures, both in The decking material, as pointed out, it's all Ipe decking with iron railing. So that'll give just a sense of character in terms of our materials for the horizontal surface. And then the pergola is an added accent to the south. The viewpoint on the south, I've got a series of windows off the south family room, and that really overlooks. It's got a great viewpoint. It overlooks into the common ground off of Harcourt. So I'm playing with some of the views a little differently and also some of the building materials a little bit differently, and I've made some enhancements. One thing I do want to note and point out on the north Justin Cappos, i'm behind the garage. Justin Cappos , And you know very good point about you know, the fact that we have we've removed a fair amount of the plannings that were previously proposed. Justin Capppos, And we are we have dogs, we have two dogs and this area will be fenced there, and there were actually a series of plantings they're not going to be frank, I mean. It's really not going to be very visible to where these plantings were originally placed. So I really, I'm not so sure that that is such an advantaged location for plantings. And I guess more importantly for our practical use, a lot of this stuff is really probably going to get kind of torn up and destroyed. And that's why I've kind of restructured this whole back planting area altogether. So I would like for you all to consider for me not to have to go back and put all those plantings back in place on that north side in particular. The landscaping, what we did is we created before it was a little more whimsical in nature in terms of the design. It was kind of wrecked. a little more rounded in weaving in and out. This is a little more, it's a little more straight lined, a little more rectilinear I guess in some of it. It does have a couple of round curves to it. So this was done, you know, very calculated. I'm kind of going for a certain look. We do have layers that kind of line up throughout certainly that western viewpoint. as well as the south. So this was something we kind of worked through strategically. Any questions I can answer for you

know we

it'll be is steve it it'll it'll be open so they'll be in in traditional probably four you know four four inch increments um so relatively traditional in nature you know if you look at my plantings on the back so we've added some taller more polymer trees um so the intent there is is um TAB, Mark McIntyre:" You know I in a in a in a situation or an application like this cedar you know cedar fence is so hard and blocking so i'd rather do it through planning and be a little softer and, quite frankly, to the north there's already a six foot aluminum fence that's intact. TAB, Mark MCIntyre:" So i'm really kind of going to continue that theme across the east portion. and avoid a harsh, I think, cedar fence.

No. No, and that's really not the intent. So it does say sliding and that's really, they're going to end up being fixed most likely. Putting a track system in is going to be, I think, a little mechanically challenging and costly, quite frankly. So they'll end up being fixed and they will not go all the way across. And I have a, I don't know if I can share my screen. I do have a picture of really what this is modeled after in terms of precedent.

share or no?

Okay, great. Here, hold on. Let me see. I don't see where I can share. Oh, here we go. Now I can. And

what can you all see?

At the edge.

therefore, yeah,

yeah.

Nicer

I had imagined.

Yeah, this is actually off of a restaurant in Northern California, Napa Valley, that I took this from.

family. I do like to cook too, Steve.

I can answer that. So the artificial turf is actually considered pervious and water runs through artificial turf more slowly according to our public works department than normal grass. So the impervious coverage is still slightly increased with the addition of that compacted limestone area. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Which is why we have added in that third recommendation that their drainage map be updated and any additional stormwater be mitigated prior to issuing the building permit.

Um, sure. Uh, Mike, I had that same question about the turf and the limestone. It, I assume Mark that that's all because you've got these dogs, they're going to tear it up. I mean, is that what you're doing? Making a dog run out of this?

So the turf is actually, it's a little more for my son who's kind of, he's active and a little athlete. Um, and the, the crushed limestone is probably it's it's really a little more architectural in nature um so we actually used a system at clayton on the park um it has a binder in it and what we're going to do with that space is we'll have like adirondack chairs and we'll have a fire pit in the center and so it'll just be in the back we've kind of created a little bit more of call it an urban backyard So it'll have a deck. It'll have some plantings. We'll then have this crushed limestone area. And then I'll have a turf space with, you know, just kind of linear trees lining each side. So, yes, some of it is, you know, for ease of maintenance and upkeep. And obviously the dogs, you know, they would destroy, you know, regular grass. And, you know, the turf will be irrigated as well. And it does have, you know, it has a drainage field underneath it. So that's the intent for the space. Okay.

And the fencing, I'm confused where the fence runs. Does it run at that end of the garage? You're saying it runs around to the other end of the garage. It doesn't show it on the landscape plan. I'm not sure where it shows. So can

you see my architectural site plans? Yes. Page one. Yeah. Okay. So here up and I just put up.

Okay.

You got it. So here's the fence. Yep. And then the fence. There you go. Fence on the North is already in place. So then it picks back up on the East and then it runs back into the deck. Okay. So what's the, what is to your North? So here. Yes. House that faces Y down right on the corner. And that's their backyard. They have a driveway, and then it's really a

driveway.

And then

okay, there's a driveway running. I'm just trying to understand when you aren't putting I mean, if you're just doing putting dogs there and making a dog run out of that behind the garage, what are they going to see? And what is there? Is that is that what their view is, is a dog run?

I mean, their view is so, you know, I have these trees that are lining here. And then I've got, you know, the turf area. And then this is kind of, yes, meant for kind of the dogs.

But from their side, what's immediately beyond your property?

So they've got to, they have plantings in front of this. So this has got some brush and overgrowth. So this is all lined from their side.

All right. So I just want to make sure that it's not just completely open to their patio or something, and they're just going to be staring at a garage with a dog run. They've got landscaping there that you're... Is that true?

There is, I mean, it's a little less formal. Um, there's a driveway there. There's a fair amount of distance, um, from their back there, their grade from Y down down is a fair amount. And so they just have a deck that's on the house. Then they have a tuck under garage. Um, and then the drive comes in off of Hillvale. So, I mean, they're. HAB-Jacques Juilland, They're 100 and you know 100 feet away easily. HAB-Jacque Juilland, So they're they're a fair distance away from that. Okay. HAB-Terry

Palmos- That was really the only that that and I agree with the recommendation that we need the updated range. HAB-Charlotte Pitts, That's all I had. Thank you.

Actually, I just asked to be skipped over because I've got a guy out here weed whacking and it's very loud. If Helen you go and I can go after, is that okay?

Okay, I really don't have any questions. Steve, you asked all of my questions with regard to the trellis and the screens. So I do like the look of the trellis in the screens. So My questions are taken care of.

OK, I can go then. It's fine. It's quiet now for a second. I have a question about the silver maple coming out. Is there a way to have re-graded that area to still drain properly and go to the east of that tree and miss it and keep it? It seems like a shame. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Or do a tree. Well, let's see.

HAB-Terry Palmos- So the silver maple is HAB-Marsyn

Moyer- Going to blow

HAB-Tery Palmos- Let's see on the I'm looking on my plan. I apologize.

HAB-Massyn Moyer- No, it's fine. It's on the east side of the garage if North is down

HAB-Trey Palmos- East side.

HAB-Marysa Silver- Just to have more film

that's okay. Don, I think, are you looking at the original plan?

No, I'm looking at the latest one.

And you're asking about removing, though?

No, I was thinking about why remove the 30-inch silver maple if you can get away with not removing it.

I think it's gone. It's already gone? Well, the house... HAB-Masyn Moyer- That the house is yeah i'm in the House is 75% done and that's why i'm trying to.

HAB-Charlotte Pitts' All right, well i'm looking at back so yeah and that just got submitted, so I didn't go out there today because I didn't get these in into lake

but. HAB-Jacques Juilland- got it yeah so I apologize, I think it's I think I think it's already gone that's why yeah I would take the garages in place and and. HAB-Marsy Rimes-

sorry about that yeah. HAB-Marys Rimes- um hmm. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Hold on so compacted limestone pavement I want to give you a little bit of information from experience on that. HAB-Massyn Moyer- Even though it's compacted you can still track that stuff everywhere, I would encourage you to think about a different kind of compacted pavement we did that that's what we did out at forest park. HAB-Jacques Juilland,

Totally

dual pass or have the the mixed in component compound. And you still can see the traces where everybody walks, right? So I would be very careful about using any kind of limestone chat sort of compacted thing, even mixed with something. It actually will move in a residential with dogs. That's just my concern for you. Okay.

Appreciate that.

Yeah, just think about it. I wanted to ask you, I saw that the pear trees are being removed. Are all of the pear trees on the property being removed? The existing or is that just the ones that

go in it in the back?

Any all pear trees. I see that you listed a bunch of them getting removed so are all on the property getting removed though because they're very invasive. I

mean, most of them, I think, are along the east side. And it is a... Yes, we are showing removing them. It's a little bit of a challenge. I know that they are invasive. Right now, they're providing actually some pretty good coverage. So it's a little bit more TAB, Mark McIntyre:" sacrifice today I guess for tomorrow and because it is this viewpoint to our neighbors property is kind of up close and Center. TAB, Mark MCIntyre:" And I mean, so I think the answer is yeah I kind of need to remove them in order to provide, I think the right environment for long term, but it does come with a little sacrifice of some coverage right now.

TAB, How many remaining.

I think, I mean, as shown on, I mean, are you an advocate of them or not?

No, I'm an advocate to get rid of them.

Yeah, got it. Then they're gone.

Right. So they're gone. That's what I was asking. Yeah. Okay. All right. So yay. Good job. I really like the plan. HAB-Juliette Boone, The newer plan I tend to agree with the side of the garage being that nobody actually will really see being excessive I would rather you spend your money in areas that people will see an experience, so I appreciate that I also when I looked at this and I have to be honest with the entire board here. HAB-Julie Petersen, That when I looked at us i'm like Baxter really came around now that I hear it was. I'm like, well, duh, thanks by Renee. I mean, she's a friend and I was surprised when you said that because I don't know why her name's on it, not on it, but

that's okay. But- Yeah, so she did the concept for me. Okay. And yeah, they're great, obviously very sophisticated firm.

Yeah, it was really funny though because I looked at it and I was like, Baxter has come around and I was excited. But yeah, so yeah, I don't have any other comments. I'm disappointed about that silver maple. I also, I'm not a big believer in foundation planting. I would rather that reaches out and you get rid of lawn a little bit more. But that's just an aesthetic thing and a environmental comment on my part. So we won't take that anywhere. It's just a suggestion in the future if you want to get rid of more lawn. and be more environmentally friendly, then you could actually champion that in your neighborhood. So-

What you're saying, take the grasses out further? Is that what you're saying?

Yes, start to branch out from that protection a little bit more and experience the entire landscape and not just have it be foundation planting. Yeah. Which is great. Which I

love the log, yeah.

Yeah, you have a great start here. You've got a really good start and kudos for that. Thank you. So that's all I had to say. That's all from me.

Don't think so, Steve.

Well, yeah. I just wanted to understand what the neighbors were seeing and it sounds like there is enough screening or landscaping even though it's not formal landscaping and I wouldn't be surprised if it's honeysuckle, as many of those situations are. So I can go along with that. Okay.

I would agree with Carolyn and Rich. As long as there is landscaping in a between the garage wall and the neighbor, what the neighbor will see from their windows or their backyard. I think it's fine.

Sorry, but what's number three?

HAB-Masyn Moyer- Or yeah, um, the third condition is to update the drainage maps and then it previously for the property and mitigate any additional runoff.

HAB-Charlotte Pitts, Thank you. HAB-Mosyn Moyer- Okay, I'll make a motion to approve with staff recommendations. Number one, and number three, you know, meeting number two.

Myself as well, obviously. And more importantly, my wife.

132 North Brentwood Boulevard. This is the review of a site plan associated with a new single family residence. The 6,303 square foot site is located on the east side of North Brentwood Boulevard between Maryland Avenue and Westmoreland Avenue. The property has a zoning designation of R4 low density multiple family dwelling district and is the former site of the YWCA building. The applicant is proposing a new three-story single-family residence measuring 6,839 square feet of air-conditioned space with an attached four-entry four-car garage. The height of the proposed residence is 38 feet 11 inches as measured from the average existing grade to the deck line of the roof. The maximum allowable height is three stories or 45 feet whichever is less. In terms of compatibility, the property to the west contains a single-family home and the property to the north is currently being developed with a single-family structure. East of the property is the access drive and surface parking for a multifamily building known as Maryland Walk. The project meets the setback, height, and impervious coverage requirements of the R4 zoning district. The plans show two HVAC units located at the rear of the house and one HVAC unit located along the middle of the south facade. The northeast corner units will be screened from the west and south by the principal structure and from the north and east by evergreen shrubs. The south unit will be screened for the north, east, and west by the principal structure, and from the south by evergreen shrub. Trash will be stored in an approximately 64-foot trash enclosure located under the front entry stairs adjacent to the garage. In terms of stormwater drainage, the total lot impervious coverage on the site was formerly 67.21% when it housed the YWCA building, which was removed in 2019. The proposed plans decreased the total lot impervius coverage to 53.34%, which is under the maximum 55% total lot coverage allowed. Front yard impervious coverage is limited to 45% in the R4 district. The proposed front yard coverage is 44.48%. The stormwater runoff prior to removal of the building is 0.490 cubic feet per second. The proposed runoff is 0.467 cubic feet per second, which represents a 0.023 decrease. The stormwater plan has been reviewed and deemed acceptable. In terms of landscaping, the proposed landscape design provides a mix of plantings to address functional and design factors of the project. The existing canopy coverage of 628 square feet is to remain with no additional removal planned. The proposed plan includes a surplus of 240 square feet of canopy coverage and meets the native tree requirement with 33.3% native proposed. In terms of utilities, the location of the gas, sewer and water connections from the main to the house are shown underground in the front yard. The electric line connection will run underground from the rear to the northeast corner of the house. The Public Works Department has found the utilities plan acceptable. In terms of lighting, exterior lighting is proposed at the front exterior door and soffits. All exterior lights will be 75 watts or less. There are eight criteria listed on page three of the report that the planning commissions should consider in their review and decision. In conclusion, the height setbacks and impervious coverage as proposed are in conformance with the requirements of the R4 low density multiple family dwelling district. Stormwater will be adequately managed on site and the landscape plan features plantings that are appropriate for the size of the site and character of the neighborhood. Staff is of the opinion that the project meets the criteria for site plan approval And our recommendation is to approve as submitted. And that concludes my report.

I will go ahead. This is Doug Leipzinger with Civil Design. Good evening, everybody. Welcome. Thanks. As Anissa said, we are doing a new three-story residence with basement. We are within all the setbacks that are prescribed and the lot drains from east to west towards North Brentwood. And we are picking up all of the stormwater drainage and connecting it into the new storm sewer that was built as part of the previous project, the public sewer. As Anissa said, all the utilities except for electric are coming into the front and the trash room is underneath the front porch. And I think that's all I have to say unless anybody has questions for me. Well, Doug, I do have

They vote. Yeah, you're correct. You said northeast and northwest. Yeah, so the

Correct. Yeah, they're both being piped basically along the side of the buildings. If you look at sheet C2, it's kind of close to the property line on the south side, but it's a storm line. on the south side and another one on the north side. And it's picking up all the downspouts for the house on both sides and it goes to the west and then the southern part comes across the front of the front yard near the sidewalk.

sewer.

that now. Yeah. There's a manhole there at the northwest corner of the property.

That's correct. There's a very small front yard on the south side that would go into, it's basically the southwestern quadrant on the drainage area map that small area would go over land to North Brentwood. North Brentwood. Okay.

Okay.

No, that was the only one I had as well. So thank you.

No

Right, this actually, you know, I really like this plan. I like the plan, I like the environment with the other building that's very similar to it. I couldn't find anything to comment on, which is so weird for me. So it's like... Thanks.

That's very unusual for you, Carolyn. I

know it, I know it. So I'm looking at, I'm looking, there's no trees getting removed. There's like nothing offensive in the plantings. It's very similar to the building next to it. I'm like, you know... HAB-Masyn Moyer- kudos no I really I don't want to waste anybody's time I had no comments so next. PB,

Ellen no further comments.

okay i'll make a recommendation to uh approve this

aye

Once again, this is 132 North brownwood boulevard their view of the design and materials associated with the construction of a single family residence. PB Sarah Silver , As mentioned previously, the site is 6303 square feet and his own are for The proposed home has a rectangular design and a mansard roof. The building height is approximately 38 feet, 11 inches as measured from the average existing grade to the deck line of the roof. The property to the west contains a single family home and the property to the north is currently being developed with a single family structure. East of the property is an access drive and surface parking for the Maryland Walk condominium building. Maryland Walk fronts on Maryland Avenue and North Brentwood Boulevard, wrapping south of the subject site. Beyond the parking lot for Maryland Walk to the east is Midwest Regional Bank. The proposed massing and height support the transition from the larger buildings to the east to the single-family neighborhood to the west. The proposed house features a below-grade four-car front entry garage. North of Fort North of Forsyth Boulevard, North Brentwood Boulevard serves as a dividing line for two zoning districts. Properties along the west side of North Brentwood Boulevards are zoned R2 single family dwelling districts and located in the Clayton Gardens Urban Design District. Properties along on the east side of North Brentman Boulevard are zoned R4 low density multiple family dwelling district and are not located in an urban design district. Many of the single family homes along the west side have garages facing North Brentwood Boulevard. While these are not considered front entry garages based on the orientation of the front door, this orientation is compatible with front entry garage development. Many of the single-family houses along the east side do have front entry garages facing North Frontwood Boulevard. Consistent with the design of other front entry garages in the area, ornamental walls and landscaping are proposed along both sides of the driveway. The proposed massing is articulated on all facades with windows, doors, and other architectural features including bay windows, limestone banding, and window surrounds, as well as a chimney. Staff believes that the height and massing of the proposed house are compatible with the neighborhood character. The primary building material for the proposed home is red brick with buff colored stone accent materials. The secondary materials are limestone, James Hardy trim and stucco board located primarily on the left side elevation surrounding the bay windows. 23% of the left side elevation will be comprised of stucco. Buff limestone surrounds the front entry wood door with a circular window with a limestone surround located just above. Black metal railings are proposed at the bottom of the rectangular first floor windows with a brick soldier course located above. The windows are double hung clad windows off white in color. Dark asphalt shingles are proposed for the roofing material with copper colored standing seam roofing proposed for the bay windows and rear porch. Two black carriage style garage doors are proposed. The proposed driveway material and the material for the front entry steps were not specified on the plans. The driveway measures approximately 16 feet wide at the property line and gradually widens to the width of the doors. The garage is a four-car tandem parking garage with a black carriage style door proposed. Brick clad retaining walls with cut stone caps are proposed on both sides of the driveway and along the front stairs and porch. The proposed brick will match the primary building material of the house. In conclusion, the proposed house is in conformance with the requirements of the R4 district and the architectural review guidelines. Staff believes the plan is compatible in terms of mass height and design with surrounding structures. Staff's recommendation is to approve with one condition that the applicant shall specify a driveway material at the meeting for our architectural review board approval that shall conform to one of the approved materials, stamped or flat concrete exposed aggregate brick pavers per the architectural view guidelines. That concludes my report.

Can you hear me okay?

I sent Anissa an email with the pictures, and I'm sorry if they came late. It was a big file. I can hold them up in front of my camera, though, if that doesn't come through.

Oh, the renderings, yes. It's a red brick here. Let me pull some up. I'll give you one

second. While we're talking and waiting for Chris, the driveway will be aggregate concrete, like similar to next door 136 North Brightwood. Okay.

Can you repeat that? I couldn't hear you.

PB Harmon Zuckerman, I was saying the driveway will be aggregate concrete similar to next door. PB Harmon

Zuckerton, For some reason, my camera stopped working. PB Sarah

Silver PB, Lupita D Montoya, So I can, I can go ahead. I have that email pulled up so I can try to PB Sarah Silver PB Sarah Silver PB Lisa Smith- That works. PB Harmon Zickerman,

Either way, I've got me in hand too. So this is PB Harmon Zuckerson, Right here. PB Harmon Zockerman, Using

The idea is like a used red brick, like from an old building. So we wanted a tumbled red brick.

So this is the Colby window, but we're going to be using a light cream color from Colby, which is called Cloud. So I'm sure you can see that. And the color is cloud. So it's a real light cream off white. This is like the stucco texture of that side elevation, if you can see that. And

that's

the

It's a hardy stucco

Same board as what's on the house at 136.

And then

last but not least, right here, this one right here is the dark gray shingle. That's the actual sample piece on this board. Oops, sorry. Right here is a picture of it. So it's a little bit glossy, maybe hard to see with the light on it, but it's a dark gray PB Harmon Zuckerman, Architect for a great channel. PB

Zuckering,

Okay, is that is that a different jingle and what's on the house next door. PB

David Ensign, Slightly different color. Same, same, same. PB Sarah Silver, Yeah,

so one. And sorry, can you hold it up again. I know. PB Sarah Silver , The one on my right, your left. Is that the color or the one on your right in my left

The one with the round tag. Okay.

So the one on the right, is that more like an occult shingle?

That's more of a black, a darker. It's actually too monotone in my opinion.

No, I was just asking. It's hard to tell on

that.

So thank you.

hardy trim, I don't have any like, I mean, it's pretty much the same color.

It's under contract. We're waiting for our as-built to be approved, hopefully this week, because we've got closing in two weeks. So great fire.

Yes, I do have a comment or question really. Karen Hollweg, On cheat a 10 with the Karen Hollweg, Elevation. Karen Hollweg, There appears to be just under the second floor windows, a light color brick line. PB,

Harmon Zuckerman, No, definitely. PB, HarmonZuckerman, Chris, I am stone trim wrapping around the side of the billion stops at the first offset. Yeah.

Okay, it wraps around on the right elevation, but on the left elevation, it doesn't wrap around.

Well, okay, so I apologize. We had a little issue with the render following through with some of this, so it does wrap around on the other elevation. Okay. Yeah, it'll wrap around appropriately just like it does on the other side.

Okay, and basically dead end at the... orange bay.

Correct. Yeah.

Okay. No, I like that detail.

That would be nice. It's just a language barrier with the people who do the color rendering. Yeah.

No, I realize details, even when you do them in-house and you know it, it still can get

pulling teeth sometimes.

Okay. No. I think it looks good. I like it.

Good. Thank you.

PB Harmon Zuckerman, David, I don't have any questions or concerns. Okay.

PB

Sarah Silver, On make a motion to approve the staff recommendation to approve PB Sarah Silver, Given the PB Sarah Silver, That it will be exposed aggregate pavement. PB Harmon

Okay. Let's see.

You're muted, Susan.

Sorry. This is an informational overview of the recently completed downtown overlay district study by H3 Design Studios. Within your packet, I included the final draft development standards and final draft design guidelines that were culminated as a result of the study. or that had culminated from the result of the study, and both the draft development standards in text and design guidelines in text as well. And so really, as I talked about in the report, there was a little bit of time lapse between when the study was completed and now we're getting ready to possibly adopt some of these standards. So I asked H3 Design Studios to come give the plan commission an overview of the study, just to kind of refresh your memory and get your minds back into what we talked about. It was quite an extensive amount of time. We worked with a really great steering committee. A couple of you were members. And so I just want to go ahead and bring everybody up to speed in anticipation of future code amendments. So I'll hand it over to Tim and John.

Well, thank you, Susan. Thank you, everyone. It's good to see everyone again. It's been a little while. So as Susan mentioned, what we want to do tonight is really to kind of run through a fairly brief summary of the planning process that we helped facilitate with you all and with the steering committee at really kind of focusing on the summary of the decision making process through that, through the planning process over the last year or so. And then we'll present a summary of the final draft development standards recommendations and an outline of the design guidelines. So again, the meeting is to really review, the objective of the meeting is to review these, the final draft development standards and design guideline recommendations for the downtown central business district, downtown and central business district core overlay districts And one point to note before we get started is that the boundary that you see on the map, that is the modified central business district core overlay district. Per the recommendation of the steering committee, the two existing overlays, the downtown core and CBD are consolidated into one district with a few expansions to cover some key properties. The engagement activities consisted of a series of meetings with different groups. We began with some extensive interviews of both the mayor, the Board of Aldermen and you all the members of the Planning Commission Architectural Review Board as well as some stakeholder interviews with other key stakeholders in the district. Following that, we conducted two visioning work sessions on April 17th and May 1st, 2020. So a little over a year ago. The first one with the Board of Aldermen and the second with the Planning Commission. Then we conducted a series of four work sessions with the steering committee, including a site walk on July 7th where we actually walked the district and talked about some of the implications onsite. And then we had a series of three joint work sessions between the Board of Aldermen and the Planning Commission which were open sessions. Those occurred on May 22nd, October 23rd and November 11th. So looking at the decision-making summary, during the first two visioning work sessions on April 17th and May 1st, and these were essentially the same sort of facilitated meeting, but with the two bodies, the Board of Aldermen and UAHL, the Planning Commission, we presented the existing conditions analysis and an analysis and 3D modeling of the existing overlay district regulations. And the key decisions that came out of those two work sessions were to combine the two existing overlay districts into a single new district and expand it to the east and to the south. There was a consensus that North Central Avenue should be redesigned to better function as downtown's primary dining and entertainment street, really in line with the entertainment overlay. In order to do that, there was support to remove two travel lanes and provide wider sidewalks. And there was also... a consensus input that the development standards have to acknowledge the market conditions and not push every development into a planned unit development scenario, which is sort of the default condition today. So based on that feedback, our team developed three options. And these were presented in two separate meetings. There was the first of the joint Board of Aldermen and Planning Commission work sessions on May 22nd, and then our first meeting with the Project Steering Committee on May 27th. We presented those three options, which primarily dealt with height and setback for the district. And there were no key decisions made at those first two meetings, but a variety of feedback was collected which was then incorporated into revisions to those three options. So those three options were revised. We brought them back to the steering committee at their second meeting on June 11th. So we presented those three updated district type and setback options. Key decisions that came out of that, there was a consensus that a three-story minimum building height in the district was appropriate. There was also consensus that a six-story maximum building height before any upper floor step backs was also appropriate. We heard consensus input that Maryland Avenue must have a contextual relationship to the neighborhoods to the north. There was a general consensus that a 10-story to 20-story step up from Maryland moving south into the district was appropriate. And finally, there was a general consensus all buildings should have an upper floor step back above six stories so that the streets don't become like canyons and that the mass of the buildings is reduced as you move. So these options then, we took these out with the committee at their third meeting, which was the site walk. And you can see the route that we took here on the map. But basically we wanted to walk with the committee members, look at some key points both in the district itself as well as in the Old Town neighborhood north of Maryland in order to understand some of the physical implications of these. And so some key decisions that came out of this third meeting, again, a reconfirmation of a six-story maximum building height before an upper floor step back. The provision of upper floor step backs along North Central and Beamiston in order to reduce the visual bulk of the buildings and provide a better visual transition between the residential neighborhoods and downtown. There was a consensus that west of Merrimack Avenue, kind of going down the hill towards Brentwood, that higher maximum building heights are appropriate and no upper floor step backs are required because of the existing height or the height of existing buildings in that section of Maryland. And finally, when we were in the district, there was a lot of talk about the importance of the architectural design guidelines in order to really guide decision-making about the human scale articulation of the buildings and the building facades in order to maintain the character of the streets. So using that feedback and the feedback gathered up to that point, we then prepared a hybrid height analysis and setback preferred option in a first draft of the architectural design guidelines. These were presented to the steering committee at their fourth meeting on September 16th. Again, the key decisions, the confirmation of the three-story max building or three-story minimum building height, pardon me, a confirmation of the six-story max height of the four upper floor step backs on Central Avenue, Beamston Avenue, Forsythe Boulevard and Maryland Avenue confirmation that maximum building height along Maryland Avenue east of Merrimack is 10 stories, and confirmation of a transition from a 10-story maximum building height to a 25-story maximum building high that would basically occur west of Merrimack and south of the alley between Maryland and Forsyth. And then finally, identification of the architectural design guidelines components, confirmation of that. And then we presented the draft development standards at the second of the Joint Board of Aldermen and Planning Commission work sessions on October 23rd. And the key decision there was confirmation of all of the development standards draft recommendations. And then finally, we presented the draft of the architectural design guidelines at the third joint session on November 11. And there was discussion and documentation of the proposed revisions to the architectural design guidelines that was based on written review by you all. And finally, there was confirmation of all of the architectural design guideline draft recommendations, which that Susan distributed as part of your packets. So before we move on to the second part of the presentation tonight, are there any questions or discussion regarding the planning process and the summary of the decision-making framework that was facilitated with you all during the process?

Great. Thank you, Steve. If there are no other comments, then we'll move on to the second portion, which is basically a presentation of the final draft development standards and design guidelines. So as you will likely recall from our process last year, The recommendations for the districts fall into one of two categories. There are development standards and design guidelines. The development standards are, these govern the placement configuration height and bulk of the maximum and minimum building envelope. And these would be the regulatory overlay that are moving forward for hopeful eventual adoption. So these are regulatory and these comprise the zoning code overlay of the district. The design guidelines on the other hand, are focused on fostering design excellence in the identity and character of the district at the scale of buildings, landscape and open space. These can be either regulatory or advisory. And in this process, it has been recommended and the intent moving forward is that the design guidelines will be advisory criteria that the city, the planning commission, the architectural review board will use in the evaluation of projects according to the new development standards. And these are both integral components in creating the vibrant entertainment district that's envisioned for this overlay district. So part one, the development standards. We'd first like to just... reiterate the boundary description for the district. So as we mentioned earlier, the updates to the overlay includes the consolidation of the two existing overlay districts, the downtown overlay district and the CBD overlay district into a single overlay. And it's been expanded to meet the boundaries that are shown. So essentially, the center line of Maryland Avenue to the center line of North Brentwood South to the center line Forsyth South on South Central to the center line of Crandallet, and then north on South Beamiston to the alley between Crandallet and Forsyth, and then basically up behind, you know, following the property lines behind the post office in City Hall. So what this does is this includes a couple of key properties, namely the large parking lot across from the government center, and as well as the Forsyth Place development at the corner of Forsyth and Brentwood. So what's important about this is that while some of the parcels within the current districts have been excluded over time due to the approval of PUDs, This basically sets a more consistent district boundary that pulls in some key potential future redevelopment areas, as well as ensures that if current projects are ever redeveloped in the future, that those properties fall within the guidelines or within the development standards rather. The development standards are organized according to seven key criteria. So there's building placement, building height, encroachments, which deal with elements of the building that overhang the public right-of-way or sidewalks. building use requirements for both ground floor and upper floor uses, parking and building services, and then building types and frontage types. And we'll go through each of those now one by one. So in terms of building placement, The first criteria is the build two line, which refers to the specific line at which the building facade will be placed. It's measured from the parcel boundary. And the build two line for all streets, all primary streets, which is all streets within the district, is set at zero feet. And that's from the ground level to floor six. Some notes to take note be mindful of. The regulations stipulate that ground floor facades may be set back from the build to line for building entrances, open air seating and dining areas and other programmatic uses up to a maximum of 12 feet. So that's an up to a maximum a 12 foot setback and up to a maximum 25% of the total facade length. Furthermore, upper floor facades may be set back from the build to line for facade articulation. Again, up to a maximum of 12 feet and up to a maximum 50% of the total facade length. Setback, this refers to the distance at which the building facade will be placed from the parcel boundary as measured from the parcel boundary. And this applies to side lot conditions, so where parcels abut other parcels, as well as alley conditions where parcels abutt alleys. And setbacks are set at a minimum of zero feet and a maximum of five feet on the side lot line, and at a minimum of 0 feet and a maximum 15 feet on the alley lot line. So again, fundamentally we want the guidelines or the development standards to maximize the continuous building wall facing the street with that five foot maximum setback. So you have no more than a 10 foot gap between buildings at property lines. And in fact, the zero feet minimum side setback would permit a continuous party wall development of adjoining buildings along the block face. And then in terms of the building form, this refers to the percentage of the build two line that is required to be built. So on primary streets, that percentage is a minimum of 85% and a maximum of 100%. And so again, that really refers to when we think of the face of the parcel where it faces the street. In all cases on all streets, a minimum of 85% of that total length would be required to be occupied by building and it could go up to 100%. So permitting full coverage of that frontage. Two notes with this. For corner parcels with two or more primary street frontages, like this parcel here at the corner of Maryland and North Brentwood, the building must be located at the corner. So in other words, that 85% minimum would have to, if there was a gap or an area that was not built, that area would have to occur away from the corner, not at the corner. And then finally up to 25% of the build two line may be set back up to 10 feet. So that permits again various articulations particularly at the corners of buildings to provide for different public realm treatments. Now moving on to building height. So this refers to the height of the building measured in stories or feet from the mean adjacent grade to the eave or base of the parapet. So for the entire district, all parcels located within the district, the minimum building height is three stories or 45 feet. And there are two maximum building heights dependent on the location of parcels within the district. So for parcels located east of North Merrimack, West of the westernmost district boundary and north of the service alley between Maryland Avenue and Forsyth Boulevard, so the parcel shown in red. Those parcels have a maximum building height of 10 stories or 140 feet. And for all other parcels shown in violet, those parcels have a That maximum height is further governed by an upper floor step back requirement, which is keyed by street. So you can see them here and we'll go through them one by one. So first... For all parcels or all building frontages fronting North Central Avenue and South Central Avenue shown in red, there is a 40 foot setback of the building, of the upper stories that is required above floor six. So a minimum of a 40 foot upper floor step back above floor six or 80 feet is mandatory for all facades facing North Central and South Central Avenue. Then for all building facades fronting along Forsyth Boulevard showing pink, there is a minimum of a 50 foot mandatory step back for all floors beginning above floor six or 80 feet. Along Maryland Avenue shown in blue, there is a minimal of a 60 foot upper floor step back above floor six or 80 feet. And finally, along North Emiston Avenue shown in yellow, there is a minimum 70 foot upper floor step back mandatory for all floors above floor six or eight feet. So again, what these step backs do is they basically establish a maximum height of six stories or 80 feet by which the buildings can be built to the zero lot line. And then above that six story or 80 feet height, there are upper floor step backs that are required Those step backs are generally keyed to other existing conditions along the street. So with Central being the most dense, we wanted to provide the minimum setback that would still permit a good character of the urban street, not overwhelmed with kind of a canyon effect that's at 40 feet. 50 feet along Forsyth is generally key to the setback of the county police building. 70 feet along North Emiston is generally key to the front setback of City Hall. And then 60 feet along Maryland provides a more comfortable transition between the residential neighborhoods to the north and the additional building height up to 10 stories facing Maryland Avenue. We also specify in the development standards a finished ground floor level, as well as a ground floor ceiling height and upper floor ceiling heights for development. which you can see here. So a finished ground floor level is zero feet above the adjacent grade. Finished ground floor ceiling heights, a 12 foot minimum up to a 16 foot maximum for the ground floor. And then upper floors, it's a nine foot minimum up to 12 foot maximum on the upper floors. Again, this is to provide some some parity and relationship between neighbor buildings to ensure that stories are generally comparable to one another, and to ensure that particularly the ground floor has a taller ceiling height in order to accommodate commercial restaurant dining and other retail activities on the ground floor. And so when we begin to kind of model the impacts of these looking at the district, this is the three story minimum height. And then the six story, which is the maximum no step back height. And then finally, the maximum height of 10 stories north of the service alley transitioning up to 25 stories south of the service alley and looking at the various step back requirements by street. So you can see that You know, the guidelines are designed to permit height, but to do so in a way that's contextually sensitive and works well within the context of both existing development in downtown as well as the residential neighborhoods to the north. So again, when we begin to look at the existing conditions in more detail, And looking at the district, these are the existing conditions today. This would be the three-story minimum building height, the six-story maximum no setback height, and then the maximum height of 10 to 25 stories. Then moving into the encroachments. So again, this refers to any part, any building or part of a building that would physically intrude upon, overlap, or otherwise trespass across the build-to line adjacent property or adjacent public right-of-way. This typically applies to things like building signage, awnings, balconies, bay windows, and outdoor seating and dining areas. So on the primary street frontages, which are basically all street frontages, maximum encroachment that's permitted. This is, again, designed to permit a variety of building articulation elements, shading structures, as well as the ability for ground floor users to have sidewalk program areas for outdoor dining and things like that. And on the side frontages and alley frontages of the parcels, there are no encroachments that are permitted. So this would only apply to the public sidewalk and the street-facing facades of buildings. And then looking at uses, the primary ground floor use in the district would be entertainment and dining uses as well as primary retail. It is important to note that We are specifying that primary retail would be permitted as a conditional use only for all building frontages along North Central Avenue, whereas it would be permitted as buy right use in every other ground floor building within the district. This came out from a feedback that we heard both from the planning commission, as well as the steering committee about really focusing and requiring developers who are building along north central to have the entertainment dining uses as their ground floor and not other retail uses. And then the upper floor use. In the entirety of the district would include secondary retail and service, office, and residential. Then moving on to parking and building service. So in terms of location, parking will generally be located at the interior of the block. Surface and above grade parking is required to be set back from the build two line. Below grade parking may be located at the build two line So for above-grade parking, there is a 60-foot minimum setback from the Build 2 line in all cases. That is to ensure that any above-grade or parking structures have an actual programmable liner of building program use in front of them between the parking and the street. One thing that we don't want to have in the district is, for instance, a retail or entertainment ground floor and then above that simply a facade covering a parking garage. We want to make sure that building podiums actually have programmable space at their facade. So any above grade or structured parking is required to be set back 60 feet to permit things like office or residential units at the street. And then there is no below grade setback at all. So any underground parking would be permitted to go all the way to the parcel line. And then looking at parking access, parking and building service will generally be accessed from existing service alleys. If the parcels to be developed have access to or abut an existing service alley, parking and building services access is required to occur from that service alley. If parcels to be develop do not have access to or about an existing service alley then parking and building service access may occur from adjacent streets to the following requirements. No access may be provided on the following streets, North Merrimack Avenue, North Central Avenue, South Central Avenue or North Emiston. So basically all street parking and building service access would have to occur from either Maryland or Forsyth Boulevard. And no access may be provided within 60 feet of a street. So those are the general parameters that define the building form and placement and the location of building services as well as upper floor and ground floor use within the district. And then there are a series of building types, which are presented in the recommendations. So the purpose and intent of the building types is to ensure that buildings within the overlay district are consistent with the character goals of the development standards. Building types are a series of model buildings for development, which are both regional and application in particular to downtown Clayton and the overlay district. and all of the building types that are presented would be permitted throughout the overlay district. So that would include a live work building, a building of separate units that would have essentially attached ground floor storefronts or ground floor storefront's attached to residential units above, a flex building which is a multi-use building for retail, commercial office and residential. A commercial block building, this would be kind of a typical mixed use building similar to other development projects that have been completed in the district recently, including the Ceylon. A high rise residential building, this would primarily be a residential only building. I apologize for the typo here. This should say podium building. So this is, again, a typology where you can have office or residential uses in essentially a tower that is located above a podium, typically with ground floor use or commercial uses parking behind a liner within the podium. And then finally liner buildings themselves, which are buildings that would be built in front of a parking garage typically. So those are the intended building types for the district. And then finally, the frontage types. These are designed to provide a series of options for how a chosen building type will address the street in order to provide variety in building features and encourage a vibrant and active street life. These would vary in their suitability for different uses. So building frontage types really need to be keyed to the particular use. Shop fronts, for instance, for primary retail dining uses, balconies for residential uses, etc. And the frontage types within the proposed overlay recommendations state that each building must use at least one frontage type on the ground floor as well as at least one front edge type on the upper floor but could feature multiple frontage types. All frontage types presented in the recommendations are permitted throughout the district, really based on their applicability to the use. So the frontage types that are included would be stoops. This would be for residential units exiting onto the sidewalk. Awnings and canopies, which would pertain mostly to storage. combination with storefronts. Balconies, which would be used primarily with residential units. Bay windows or Oreo windows, which could be used either on the ground floor or upper floors for a variety of residential office and commercial uses. ground floor commercial use and cafes, which is a variation of permitting an interior setback for dining that would be used primarily with restaurant and entertainment uses on the ground floor. So that is a quick summary of the development standards recommendations that are included. And then before we conclude the presentation, we just want to quickly touch on the design guidelines themselves. We won't go through these in detail, but I just want to provide a quick outline and an objective for the design guidelines which you have in your packet. So the objective and definitions for the design guidelines is to achieve design excellence in a vibrant, attractive and human scale downtown entertainment district. These really are intended to expand entertainment opportunities in a pedestrian focused commercial and service node of downtown, allowing for more destination venues, which comes from the entertainment district overlay. And to this end, A project design should contribute to a distinctive district character and identity, while providing positive human scale pedestrian oriented experience encouraging architectural contextuality creativity and diversity. So this is really the intent of the design guidelines in order to achieve that intent guidelines have been. Mark Benthien, ECA- formulated according to the six categories that you see here on the left, so there are a series of design excellence principles for the district on their district guidelines which deal with the general. Mark Benthien , ECA- The general overlay district and it's it's urban form, then there are architectural guidelines specific to buildings, as well as building elements and materials. landscape guidelines and public art and placemaking guidelines. And so we can certainly answer any questions you have about those, but I won't go through those in detail because they are quite extensive. But those form that advisory document that works in conjunction with the development standards to ensure a high quality of development in the district. So with that, I will... stop talking and pass it back to you all for any questions or comments.

Right. No, Steve, that's a really great point. And I think it's important to note that the building types are not... They're not necessarily designed to be exhaustive. And in fact, they're not designed really to limit in terms of the specifics as you were mentioning, but rather they're designed to provide some models for development which can be used by the Planning Commission, the Architectural Review Board when evaluating the suitability of a project for the district. So specifically referring to the Beemiston Place development, yes, it does absolutely have elements of both the live work building, the commercial block building and the liner building as part of it. In general, I would say that it would probably most align with a commercial block building, but it does have live work units facing Maryland Avenue, and it does have aspects of a liner building as well because it does have the interior structured parking. But I think it's a good point that, and perhaps something that needs to be included in the development guidelines that state that you know, that these building types are not necessarily exhaustive and that hybrids of elements of all of these building types could potentially be included in a single project.

I'm still confused about one thing and I know I've asked this question before. The build two line where, and I understand it's a build two line is zero feet with the intent that you're keeping PB Harmon Zuckerman, The the the activity on the sidewalk.

Yes.

Is that right, that's right. So I look and then you have this other criteria that talks about corners and that if there's any any bit of setback which you're saying is a maximum of 12 feet, which I guess is enough to put some tables for a cafe or something. It can't be on a corner,

correct? So Rich, I think what you're referring to is in terms of the building form. And so this refers to the percentage of the build two line that's required to be built. So in other words, if you think of a given parcel, the combination of the build two-line, the side and alley setbacks and the building form percentages they would permit a 100% coverage of the parcel, but a minimum of 85% of both of the facades or in the case of an interior parcel like this, the single street facing facade is required to be built. Now, when it comes to the... the corner condition, what we're basically stating is that the overall building form needs to be located at the corner. So in other words, that 85%, you know, it shouldn't be measured from the side lot condition to the corner. It rather should be measured from the corner and located. Now, that being said, that building, building form or building occupation criteria can be further modified by a corner inset or another setback as specified in our build tube line, which permits that up to a maximum of 12 feet

Let me simplify the question maybe. Right? That picture you have there, the A is pointing to Oceana. Correct. Yes. Oceana. Yes. Right across the street from that is Herbie's. Herbie's has a beautiful patio and that is very busy, kind of like Napoli has a great patio. It's very busy. Yes. PB Harmon Zuckerman, If Oceana which is very likely that building comes down. PB Harmon Zuckerson, These these guidelines say that we can't build something that would mimic Herbie's and provide Oceana with a PB Harmon Zuckerton, Bigger patio.

No, no, they don't prohibit that. So in a simple way of thinking of it, this corner here, you could actually take a quarter of the facade facing Maryland and a quarter of the And that could both occur at the corner. Just because that setback is permitted, that additional setback, that does not run afoul of the building form

requirement. But you're saying it's 12 feet, not what Herbie's has now. Herbie's would not be allowed under these new development guidelines.

Um, well, if it, yeah, that's a good point. If it's, if it's because if their step back is more than is more than 12 feet, then, then yes, that would. It's about 20 feet. I don't know. I

don't, I never measured it, but it's, it's pretty, pretty good size. Right. Got a piece of art sitting in the middle of it. It's yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So Rich, what I, what I will say is there, there are additional, um, there are additional design guidelines dealing with that exact issue that we didn't go through tonight in detail relative to the form standards. And certainly, if the dimensional requirements, and I do know that this issue has come up in the past PB Harmon Zuckerman, The current the current iteration of the recommendations is seeking to address that. But if there is a general feeling that you know these are not PB Harmon Zuckermann, That these would not permit desired characteristics, then certainly some of those those dimensional requirements can be PB Harmon Zuckerson, Thank you. PB

Harmon Zuckerton,

Carolyn. Caroline Miller,

Yeah. Hi, Tim. PB Harmon Zuckerberg,

Hi, Carolyn. How are you

Good. Who are you? Nice to see you. You as

well.

I

have a question. Oh, it's a big loaded one. I'll start with this question, and then I want to ask a specific question about the plan. Okay? I'm going to lead into it. What do you think is the role of architecture and urban design in the current pandemic and in the future of architecture and urban everything design. Now, with that in mind, how much do we need to conserve office space and how we need to reconsider the needs for that? And actual open space, frankly, and more housing and everything else. So I'm bringing this up because I know you guys are really, really freaking smart. And right now we're in a situation where people are not gonna be leasing and the housing market is going through the roof for sellers as you know. But people are not really going, they're going back to the office but not, to the same degree and they probably never will or for a little bit. So how do we adapt this plan to that? I know it's a good question because you already did all the work,

so. So in, so I mean quite simply, you know, in terms of, in terms of the uses.

Yeah.

Up ahead. Basically, the permitted upper floor uses are quite flexible. So office is certainly included, but so is residential. And so are secondary retail and service type businesses, professional services, things like that. I think the intent behind this study and behind the updates of the design guidelines was really driven by the desire to have, to maintain and in fact increase the vibrancy and vitality of the ground floor, of the ground level of the district and the streets. Yeah, and you know what? That's

not going to change. with whatever you do that, that won't change. So I agree with that. That's great.

So, so in terms, so yeah, so in terms of the, and then in terms of the upper, the upper floors and really, you know, when you think of the most of the leaseable or rentable space of the buildings or, you know, occupiable space, I think the idea behind this was really to, to be flexible and, and, you know, certainly with, I agree with you with the way that the housing market is going now. We would certainly anticipate that development probably at least over the next couple of years as it occurs would be mixed use development would be primarily residential on the upper floors. And that's very welcome and certainly permitted in this as is office and other things. So from a use perspective, we wanted to keep it as flexible as possible within the kind of the urban context of downtown Clayton and really HAB-Jacques Juilland, govern the the the overall max asking in form of the building and the relationship with the buildings and the streets to maintain any enhance that that vibrant street character that that makes this district very identified. HAB-Masyn Moyer, Yep, I hear you.

HAB-Jacque Juilland,

I don't know if that answers your question, but

Well, um, you know, I've known you for years, a while ago, but I actually wanted your opinion on it more than your Well, I'm just curious as to how everybody in the board feels about this. I mean, how much do you think I went downtown today to drop off my husband because I had to go to a job site. And we have one car because during COVID, we were like 22 cars and his car was horrible. So we got rid of it. And I had to drive him down there and I'm driving back and I'm seeing all these signs, office, space for lease, lease, lease, so I'm just wondering, what is the next move? What is the next wave of... cities, what are we doing? I mean, I don't know. Maybe I'm getting philosophical here, but Tim, I know you and I think you have an opinion on this and I just don't wanna hear, well, we've got office space in the top or residential. I think there's an opinion there and I would like to hear it. I mean, I think retail on the bottom is a great idea now especially because people are gonna be walking around. Is there, you know, I mean, I don't know.

Well, I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned that because when we were working with, the city and the board in engaging with the developer for the Bemiston Place project end of last summer. That exact consideration was informing a lot of how they were planning that project and some of the types of units and building amenities and things like that, that they were. that they were designing. So, I mean, it's hard to know for sure, but I could say it's, you know, I think probably everyone would acknowledge that, yes, the typologies for multifamily residential and the typologies for office buildings, I mean, I think it's all going to be evolving given what's happened and what we're coming out of. And And I think that, I mean, my opinion of it would be that we need to, that codes and development regulations need to permit flexibility in some of those areas while really focusing on the elements that make the city a great place to be. Yeah. But yes, it is a philosophical discussion that we could probably have all night.

Sorry. No, no,

no.

That's what I had, though.

Yes, I do have a question. You're proposing to allow balconies and bay windows extend six feet into the public right of way. What limits could I take building and extend a balcony, the full length of the building, maybe 100 feet? As an architect developer for a client, the developer wants to maximize allowable space. The architectural review board can look at it and say, it looks wrong, but there's that other argument that will say, you don't limit me. You allow me to go six feet out, but I can run that right around my building. And the same thing with bay windows, you know, stick enough windows in an enclosed projection and call it a bed. I think that's an area that needs to be further refined because quite honestly, I am not a fan of giving public right-of-way to developers. As taxpayers, we're paying for it and they're making money on what we're paying for. The other thing with balcony is that people like to put plantings on the railings. Well, when they water those plantings, hopefully I'm not walking beneath all dressed to go to dinner or to work, to the office. So I see And that part of the encroachments, I really see some issues that need to be further defined so that we don't wind up with problems.

No, Helen, I think that's a great point. And some of those items are covered in the architectural the architectural guidelines relative to things like minimizing long horizontal elements and breaking the facade up. But I think that there certainly could be, some of that could be codified into the development standards as well if that's desirable.

I would think it would be, I would like to see it in the development standards and then we can further refine it in the architectural guidelines, but in the design guidelines. But, you know, I've played, I've worked for developers, you know, as well as private clients. And I know that I'm looking for the loophole to get my client what they want. And I can make it look great. It can wrap balconies around buildings and it looks fantastic, but from the citizen's point of view, I don't think that's what we want. We want something in the development guidelines so that it can be limited to what we're intending as opposed to seeing someone, you know, just run with the idea. And then we've got something that if one person gets it past architectural review and the plan commission, then every other developer is lining up to do the same thing. And that's not what we're intening at this point in time.

Karen Hollweg,

Now that's my concern. The rest of it. I think looks really good. I like David Ensign,

Know that's, that's a good point. Thank you for that. PB Harmon

No, that's it.

No, I don't think I have any questions at this point. I'm pretty familiar with this working with Tim and John over the last year or more. So I think I'm good for tonight.

That's correct.

Yes, so I set up on our pending applications page a file just for this project. And I've put everything you received tonight, the final report and the drafts in that file. I've let the steering committee know that it's there. I'll also be giving them, this meeting is recorded. And so I'll be sending them the recorded meeting so they can review it at their leisure. And I've also given them the schedule. for consideration. So I hope that's adequate. I think, you know, in the past we were looking at this under some pressure of impending development that, you know, wasn't at one point very desirable. We're not looking at that right now. So, you know, I don't feel, you know, that certainly we want to get this done and wrapped up but we're not under any type of development related pressure where we've got to adopt the standards or we're going to get some type of development we don't want so we've got a little bit of breathing room but again while it's still relatively fresh in everybody's mind you know we obviously need to move forward we put quite a bit of work into this study and the h3 design studios has done a fantastic job and you know, anxious to get it wrapped up and into our code. So any future developers or developments know what we're looking for.

getting an echo, Steve, for some reason.

PB Harmon Zuckerman, No, Steve. Thank you though I but no no further comments tonight. I really appreciate the remarks.

Okay. PB Harmon

PB Sarah Silver, Every father say to Tim. PB Harmon Zuckerberg,

Mr. Winkleman has his hand up. I'll bring him over now.

Okay.

Slow hang. Can you hear us? I incredibly appreciate the opportunity to look into the thinking that has occurred. And I want to say some of the comments that Rich made, that we're dealing with public space and how it is used and openness and the allowability of new buildings to have that same sort of open breathing edge. I really appreciated Helen's comments that we're dealing with balconies. I look at buildings, you know, I intimately walk the streets, I know I respect the buildings that have a setback and then they have a balcony. I think the incredible challenge for all of you is that this discussion didn't really deal with a little bit of a walk through the blocks. There are not many on the chessboard from West to East of how they are today what the developers from Centene to Grandolet Plaza have taught us about retail, about streetscape, width, height. We need to reaffirm what what our city can teach us about tomorrow. And I challenge you to not deal with this regulation and planning until you can visualize it into the three-dimensional world that our children are gonna move through. That's your challenge. Rich, I really appreciated your remarks and I challenge you all.

Hi, Rich and Steve. No, thank you all. I think it was a straightforward presentation. I love the comments. And I think that will bring another level of finesse to this as we move through the process. So thank you for the comment.

Well, thank you very much, Steve. If I may, I'd like to say thank to the staff. Thank you very much, Susan, Anissa. I know you haven't been here for too long, but Kelly, everybody, I know they put together a lot of stuff in a short period of time usually and we often demand a lot. So thank you very much. I think Stephanie dropped off and wanted to thank her for her PB Harmon Zuckerman, Her quiet guidance as we go through these processes to the committee and sorry Bob and George aren't here as well but You know, I've learned from all your comments. Every time you guys say something, there's something to be learned from it. And obviously, as I often say, I'm not an architect, but I like the design concepts and it's always very intellectually stimulating. And Steve, terrific leadership. I know you've been at this for a while, but you really do a terrific job of leading this committee and placing the issues in the right context. It's been an honor serving under you. So thank you very much. I've really enjoyed the past three years. Thank you. I'll miss you guys. Yes, and you will be

missed. We'll miss you very much. And thank you so much for your helpfulness. you're wonderful and steve you're yeah

you guys hear me i don't even know

okay whatever love you all i will just say ditto

I think we've covered it. Rich, it's been a pleasure. You still have to deal with me, David.

I know, just not on every other Monday night.

Nothing for me.

Thank you, Rich. I know I wrote you an email thanking you, but thank you again. It's been a pleasure working with you and you've brought some terrific insight and asked some really great questions throughout the years and Really, really appreciate all your efforts and we'll miss you.

Take care.