November 14, 2023 — Meeting Transcript

okay well uh welcome everybody uh happy tuesday and um we we have an interesting discussion session tonight about the 2040 plan we went some of us went to a public session last night and it was really interesting and i know you guys have one coming up and ward three has already done one so it was really fun to be there so anyway i'm gonna turn it over to the city manager who's probably gonna turn it over right to you to anna i mean

come on up here okay however you want to do it yep all right and catherine from pgav will take it away

There we go. Perfect. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right. Hi, everyone. Catherine Homaker again from PGAV. So as the mayor mentioned, I'm here to give you kind of an update on where we are with the comprehensive plan process. So I'm going to run through maybe let's see, you said the mouse worked. There we go. where we are in the planning process. So if you were there last night, you have seen this slide before. But in terms of the process, we've done the existing conditions analysis. You all saw the dashboard and the big thick review of all the data. We've moved into the community engagement phase, which we've done a lot of, but is still kind of ongoing and will continue throughout the process. And then moving into the land use planning phase, which is you know, arguably the most important part. It's the very concrete way that we are thinking about what the city looks like now and what we'd like it to look like in the future. And then we are still on track for the final plan in April. So just we're still trucking along and the steering committee and city staff are kind of moving this forward as we go. So a review of the community engagement. I'm going to run through each of these things, but this is what we have done thus far. So there's been a community survey, pop-up events, public meetings, stakeholder interviews. As I mentioned, the steering committee has met six times, city staff, and then our team, the engagement folks have attended a variety of public events like the art fair. There's been social media outreach, newsletters. You might've seen the yard signs and the banners and all of that stuff around town. So the community survey, I don't know you all have not seen anything yet about the Engage Clayton community survey. The other one is the livable communities survey which they did produce a report so you may have seen some of those results, but the first one I'm going to run through was the survey that is still live on engageclayton.com. That was just one more way to try to reach people. A lot of the questions asked there are also something people were able to engage on at one of the public events or one of the pop-ups or things like that. But again, it's just one more way Ward three is really killing it on the community survey. So good job. Respondents of that survey were most likely to be over 45 years of age, most likely to be white, working and have at least a bachelor's degree, which is consistent with the Clayton population. It's not a representative sample, but it is just another way to hear from folks. They were asked all kinds of questions, but one of them was their top three priorities for the future of Clayton. So those were pedestrian and bike friendly streets that are greener and cleaner. vibrant, attractive commercial corridors in each ward and affordable small business and retail space. So take a mental note of those three priorities. They were also asked about residential strengths and weaknesses and the same for commercial in Clayton. People talked about the quality of housing, that there's housing that appeals to young professionals, the walkability and access to parks that the housing and neighborhoods afford. Some weaknesses were the availability of affordable or accessible housing and then student housing. Commercial strengths were mostly related to employment, job opportunities, that there's commercial development, and then the character of commercial areas in the neighborhoods. And then weaknesses were around leasing options for small businesses and startups, the mix in availability of shopping, which I know we've heard a lot about through public engagement, and then the lack of green space adjacent to commercial areas. So then the Livable Community Master Plan mailed survey. So this was a statistically valid mailed survey to addresses in Clayton, which produced a representative sample of demographics. So this survey asked a lot of questions related to parks and recreation, but many of those were relevant to the comprehensive plan. So we've looked at all of that, but I pulled out those top three priorities because those were asked in this survey as well. And what the top three priorities in this survey were where affordable commercial spaces for small businesses to get their start, pedestrian and bike-friendly streets that are greener and cleaner, and additional options for entertainment and nightlife venues.

Can I ask a question? Uh-huh. Were those like checkboxes or drop-downs? Yes. That's why the language is the same? Yes. Okay.

So here they are next to each other. The top three priorities from the comprehensive plan survey and the livable community survey. And I put this up because the first two are the same in both surveys. So while the focus of the surveys were a little bit different, it's interesting to me that the priorities of residents, there is some consistency there from both surveys. We also have conducted a bunch of pop-up events. So the music nights at Oak Knoll Park, we are twice. So that got a lot of families, boomers, sort of a different demographic. The art fair weekend was residents and visitors of all ages. It was a ton of people that had a kind of a varying familiarity with Clayton. Parties at the park was a lot of professionals and downtown employees, the demand park and Captain Elementary pop up which was at the playground, we got a lot of young families and children leaving school because it was on a Friday afternoon. The blues home home home opener event the city staff participated in and again got a lot of professionals We similarly had folks that work in Clayton and then some families. So again, it's sort of a broad view. And this was people that didn't necessarily have to opt in. They were just at an event and we happened to also be there to talk to them. So it got probably a very different group of people than the folks that opt in to come to a meeting at the center of Clayton on a Monday night. Here's some of the priorities that came out of the pop-up events. So we asked a variety of different questions and they varied based on the event, if we were likely to be talking to employees or families or children or all those different kinds of demographics. So related to vibrancy and commercial, there was a lot of talk of access to entertainment and destination venues, wanting wide sidewalks with outdoor dining, access to shops. We've talked a lot about that in terms of retail services, opportunities for startups, maintaining this sort of small town feel that people have, green space and infrastructure relating to downtown in particular. So planters and trees and that kind of greenery existing in downtown. And then again, the town square feel that would bring some of that kind of small town feeling. And then in terms of residential and neighborhood priorities, people talked about the architectural character of neighborhoods and that it's unique and people wanted to retain that. A range of home values and affordable options, encouraging the tree canopy in residential areas to make sure that we retain that. The variety of housing types and sizes, and then the neighborhood commercial districts ensuring that we maintain those and then really try to encourage those moving forward. So again, this is a wide view of comments some people supported all of these things some people hated these things so it's a little all over the board. But again, just wanted to bring those up. In terms of the stakeholder interviews, so the city provided us with a long list of folks that are stakeholders in the community. So this was faith leaders at institutions in Clayton. It was people from major employers in downtown, small businesses. People at the higher education institutions, developers, property owners, people that work in Clayton, all of that. And so we did interviews, either virtual or in person, about 45 minutes with a ton of different people to get their perspective. Some people had a lot of experience working with Clayton, with the city, with development in the city, with residents, that kind of thing. Other people had little experience or experience. were more interested in participating in Clayton in the future. So some themes that came out were just general excitement about the future of downtown. People talked a lot about how it still feels like a good place to invest. The future is, you know, of office and some of those things are a little uncertain and yet it still feels like they'd like to be. Concern about the edges of downtown that abut residential. So some of those concerns were related to future development or past development. that people had a positive experience working with the city of Clayton staff. We had a lot of positive thoughts about the city manager, which is good to hear. And he wasn't on the call. So it was kind of fun for me to be able to listen and see what they had to say. A desire for more clarity in city regulation. So that came from all kinds of standpoints, whether it's architectural review or understanding the process for getting a business license, you know, it was kind of all over the board, but just some more clarity around that. Yeah. People looking for more ways to figure out parking. So this was a big one with the faith leaders is there's just a lot of different parking dynamics in the city and it's hard to find, is it expensive? There seems a little bit of a clarity needed on the parking. And then uncertainty about the future of office space. So figuring out what that's gonna look like in the future was a question people continually asked. Let's see here. Then steering committee meetings. So there's a few members of the steering committee here. We've had five steering committee meetings thus far, and then we've got another one this week. We've done introductions, existing conditions review, some additional data analysis to dig into some of those extra population demographics they were looking into. We've done some land use planning, and we've started talking about scenario areas. In that group, we've heard all kinds of feedback, but some of the themes were Desire to increase engagement in the process, a focus on activating downtown, an interest in those population dynamics and what affordability looks like in the community. People are very sensitive to commercial and residential neighborhood borders. So where those two land uses abut each other, figuring out what that should look like and how to reduce that tension significantly. Thinking about what is vibrancy, that's something we've been asking at a lot of the public events is people say we would like to see a vibrant downtown or we'd like to see a community. And that means almost nothing. And so figuring out what people mean when they say vibrancy has been a big question throughout this process. There's been interest in advancing some sustainability goals, openness to creative tax incentives but figuring out kind of what that would mean as part of this process I think the steering committee is interested in exploring. As I mentioned, there's also been public events and social media and the newsletter. And hopefully you've seen a lot of this online. Mostly it's been used as a way to get people to in-person meetings. Some of this subject matter is a little jargony and not super accessible. And so we found it to be a lot more effective to get people in person. So we've been using these online platforms. resources as a way to try to get folks to come to us in real life. And the city's communications department has been great at getting all that information out through your usual channels. And we've also got a nice contact at school district that's been putting it in their newsletters. So another way to get families and younger demographics involved. Oops, I went too far. Can I go back? Can you go back for me one? Thank you. The public meeting. So this has been, I know several of you were at these. So there was an open house in August. I'm sure many of you were at it, but also I've talked about this when I came to you all at the last meeting, that was sort of a big introductory event where we asked people kind of big questions about the community. We had people from all over attend all different kinds of folks from business owners to residents to, you know, students, all kinds of people. And then we wanted to get a little bit more in depth on that. And so we've been hosting these ward meetings. And so these have been big public workshops. There's no formal presentation, but folks have been sitting around tables with 10 or so people and a facilitator to think through issues and things they love and where they'd like to see things change and opportunities for redevelopment and some of those more concrete land use issues by ward. So we had the ward three meeting in October and our estimate is like a hundred and a few people attended that. We had a hundred people sign in. So at least that many came. And then we had the ward two meeting last night where we think we were like around the 70 number. So that was pretty good. We had a lot of folks come to those meetings and I think people had really good conversation with, people they didn't know at the tables that maybe had a lot of differing viewpoints about what they'd like to see in the future. So I think it was helpful to have those viewpoints and talk to each other and think like, I would really like to see more rental housing or I would really not like to see more housing. And then what does that kind of give and take look like? And then the Ward 1 meeting is coming up on November 30th. So looking forward to seeing Ward 1 maybe beat Ward 3's record. And then the second open house is coming up on December 5th. And so the December 5th open house is actually a joint event between the livable communities plan and the comprehensive plan. And so we have been working with the livable communities consultant to create like a fully cohesive event. So attendees won't really, I mean, there'll be information to learn about how the plans are different and how they interact. But other than that, it will be one event. cohesive event, participants will come participate in a whole bunch of activities. And then after the fact, we'll work on kind of what information is helpful to each consultant. So I think that will be really great. I think folks are, we thought it was unlikely for them to attend two separate events, especially this time of year. And we've had some questions around how much Parks and Rec is related to the comp plan. And I know they've had questions the other way around. So I think it'll be really good for people to understand how the two are related and then also be able to provide their feedback in person. So looking forward to that. And then what we're doing now is moving into this land use planning phase. So, as I mentioned the engagement will still continue we're going to keep doing that throughout the process there'll be another public meeting. There'll be other opportunities for residents to engage. But we are sort of turning the corner here into thinking about what the community looks like physically in the future. So testing options for a few areas in the community that might be in transition. These options are going to be shown in 3D so we can kind of think about scale and what it does to the built environment. And then ultimately that 3D version of the city will become a tool, a living tool for the planning department so that when developments come in and they produce their, I'm sorry, they provide their drawings and their schematics for what the building hypothetically that they'd like to develop in Clayton looks like. You all can plop that into your 3D map and really think about what it means for the built environment. It's also going to be a super useful tool for the city in terms of analysis. If they'd like to think about changing regulations, they can think about things like permeable amount and tree coverage. And the 3D tool goes as detailed as like the location of every curb and every bike lane and the height of every building. It's extremely comprehensive. So hopefully it will be a tool you all can use for many years to come. And as updates happen, can just be done to the tool itself. So we've gotten some guidance from the steering committee on some of those edges of downtown areas. And so we're working through some of that. And then we've also talked through the ward meetings about some of those areas related that are feeling like they might be concerns or maybe need some additional attention. So that's something we asked folks at the Ward 3 and Ward 2 meetings and will at the upcoming Ward 1 meeting. It's like, when you look at this map of your community, where are the areas that you feel like might look different in 10 or 20 years? Whether it's because of the market or because of the architecture or because of the changing demographics, where are those areas that you feel maybe need some updates? Where are the areas that need to transition so that it is more fitting for the future of Clayton. So again, we've been working with several different groups to kind of figure out what those areas might be so that we could begin testing some of those options. That's what I've got for you. Now I will take any questions.

Well, maybe I'll try going in order of seniority first. Sounds good.

questions so i attended last night um i remember seeing you there and they you know lively discussions at the tables i was wondering how you're going to incorporate those discussions you know i mean i don't think any of the tables that i went to and sat and listened um followed any of your structure

yeah that's how those meetings go right

And so I and so there was a lot of things said by people that I don't know how that gets captured and how that gets incorporated integrated into any kind of a. final report can you help me with how that these meetings that you have because i know ward one is coming up so

yeah absolutely so all of the notes from last night and all these other events get typed up in you know all of the words get included in all of those things um and then it is really our job to work with the city staff and the steering committee to figure out how that stuff gets integrated like what direction do we want to follow do we want to fall the people that said I think this is too tall or the people that said, I think this is two short. You know, it's sort of our job to figure out what that means. But I think inventorying everything to figure out did more people say too tall or more people say too short is part of the task of typing up all those notes and figuring out the next step. All of this information from these public events is qualitative information. You know, it's not quantitative information like we get from the statistically valid survey, for example. But it is a way that we can hear from a variety of different folks and get them to engage on lots of subjects. But I think that that's the hardest part of this process is what do we do with all this feedback when no one agrees?

Right. It just seemed hard to me, if I was a leader of even one of the tables, to be able to somehow concisely put into perspective what most of the people at the table thought. I mean, there was no... It wasn't a vote. I mean, somebody says something, someone says, yeah, I agree. What about the other six people?

Right. For those of us who haven't been to one yet, you mentioned a leader at a table. Is that who was taking the notes that you're talking about? Can you just explain that for folks who don't know?

Sure. So how the board meetings work is that we had a brief, like less than 10 minute presentation to just kind of give people a baseline understanding of kind of what a comprehensive plan is and what this process is and why you're sitting in this room. And then people sat at tables of like around 10-ish people with maps on the table and a bunch of sticky dots and a facilitator. So someone from our team or from the engagement staff's team or Anna was sitting at one of the tables. And we worked through a series of questions around several different subjects. So where do you see conflicts? And that had a color and we would put a color on the map and then we would write down comments related to those. So it depends on the table as to exactly who, like some people assigned a note taker at their table, for example. Other people, the facilitator took the notes. So I would say it's not a science for sure, but that's how it was structured.

The only other question I have is, We got an email from someone from Ward 3 who said, you know, the age of the folks that were there seemed to be sort of on the older level. All right. I noticed the same thing last night. So is there some way to, you know, and I think I know if I talk to you about it, I know I talked to Ana. How do we get some of the younger folks who are in our community? And we have plenty of them. How do we get them involved? This is a master plan for the future. I'm looking around the room and some of the people probably won't even be around for whatever that's going to be. I think we have to figure out how to really engage. I'm not talking about 22-year-olds. I'm talking about even 35, 40, 45-year-olds, 50-year-olds even. People who are you know, really a big part of our community with families.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's super important. And we've talked a lot about it with the steering committee. One of the things we did after presenting to you last time, a couple months ago, that was, I think was create a demographic profile for the city of Clayton. So it is a one pager that has kind of like, if Clayton was 10 people, this is what it would be. What would the age breakdown be? What would the race break down those kinds of questions? Um, And after every engagement event, we have been kind of like scoring attendees based on the demographic profile. So we could kind of get an understanding of like, are we getting only people of a certain age? Are we getting the families, you know, those kinds of things. And that is what led us to do the pop-up at Demund Park, for example, to get younger families. And so I think that is going to continue to be part of this process is figuring out how to get those younger people to these events. I will say it's a little bit of a, you have to do as many methods as possible because you know, each method is going to capture one demographic, but altogether we might get them all. And so I think it is perhaps an unrealistic expectation to find a people that are going to come to a meeting on a Monday night if they have school-aged children. And so that is why we did say a pop-up on a Friday afternoon to catch those people or the Oak Knoll Park music nights or the parties in the park in downtown because we were trying with all these different methods to catch a different demographic every time. So we're trying.

Susan and I were talking last night about Maybe you do it at the center, like when there's a swim meet or not a swim meet, but maybe some kind of activity like basketball. Maybe you can corral some of the parents who may not really be that interested in sitting in the hot pool and watching. Maybe they'll come over. Just a few other ideas.

Thank you.

We have a question on the screen that maybe I should go ahead and ask. And if you could scroll back up to the, let's cut off the top of the question. Oh yeah. So it's from Carolyn Gatiss, who's a member of our ARB and plan commission. Are we tracking comments from folks by age?

So we are tracking them on the demographic profile. We're not asking people their age. So it is our sort of estimate as to what age bracket they would fall into, but yes.

We're tracking the kinds of comments they're making. by age?

We are tracking the demographic profile of the attendees with the thing that they attended. So we know like, for example, last night at the ward meeting, you all maybe have put your dot on some of those prioritization boards. Maybe you didn't notice, hopefully you didn't notice that the dot was a different color so that we could tell that meeting number one, those people used an orange color versus meeting number two, the people used a pink color. So we could tell the difference in terms of answers by meeting, which we would then be able to track back to the demographics at that meeting. So I cannot tell you that a person who said they didn't want this kind of housing was this age, but I could tell you that a lot of people didn't like this kind of housing at this meeting. And that meeting was majority people of this age, if that makes sense.

If you're

questions I think are just process and they're probably what about you had spoken about providing digital twin tech. Whatever that is where is it, yes, the

digital twin is the 3D twin of the city that's the model so that will be handed over to the city as part of this process, yes.

Okay, I'm here. Yeah, thank you. That was my major question was, I was excited about you guys because of the digital twin. So thank you. Yes,

of course. We did do kind of a little preview session with the city staff of the digital twin a couple of weeks ago. So it's in the

works. Perfect. Yay.

Okay, we can move on. I have a

question from Rich Lentz. He texted me a question. I'll go ahead and ask it. He says, I have not heard anything. Still claiming seniority. What's up with that? He was at the meeting last night, and I was going to call security. I have not heard anything from the steering committee, and I thought one of their jobs was to be the liaisons with the committee. The younger folks on the steering committee should be working their peers to get more input.

I can tell you that the steering committee was the connection to the school district to getting the notification in the newsletter at the school district. So they have made that specific connection in response to helping us get the word out to new demographics.

Yeah, and I will just say, I feel like, I mean, I think, you know, I think it's obviously really important that we get the school age or school age parent demographic, obviously. I mean, I think I must have emailed 100 people that I know who are in that demographic. I mean, I just, I think it's very hard to get them. It's not that they're not motivated. I just think that there's so much else going on in their life. I mean, there was a handful of people in that demographic at the Ward 3 meeting. I just... And you say like Monday nights are bad, but also Saturday afternoons are bad. Like it doesn't matter. Like they're just busy doing stuff all the time. So I think it's, I think they care, but I think that it's just, there's just too much else going on. So it's, you know, I think people came, people provided input. So it was just, I don't know what else to do about that.

It's not a Clayton thing. It's a planning public involvement, you know, Folks of that demographic also probably don't come to your Board of Aldermen meetings to sit and watch. So I think it's sort of a consistent issue that everybody's got to work on.

Okay. I was wondering, though, did you see any more of that participation demographic in the survey? Or was that like the – I guess you said it was still largely – older people, right?

I would say that the survey and we could tell you this information that because the survey does break it down by age a lot more specifically. The

other survey, right? The written survey.

Correct. Both the livable community survey and the engageclayton.com survey break the age groups down quite detailed. So we could pull like exactly how many we're getting between like 25 and 45, you know, to kind of at least understand like, okay, if 50 of them didn't come to the public meeting and 50 of them completed the survey, then we got 50 opinions that way. So we do have the details on the age breakdown. We could send that to

you. And then just in terms of like at the last steering, I'm not sure what we're discussing tomorrow at our steering committee meeting, but in the last one where we did look at, what'd you say? It's Friday. Yeah. Don't come tomorrow. Yeah, it's not Friday. So we talked about, you know, those different, you know, developments in downtown that perhaps are ripe for redevelopment or could change hands or whatever the case may be. So taking kind of that, like what will happen then to that? Are we going to talk to the community about that? Or is that something that like, you know, I mean, we've had these big board meetings. Right. We talked about that kind of loosely at the Ward 3 meeting in terms of like conflicts or what you might like to see there. But I'm just curious if we'll do more with that as we move forward. Answer it?

Yes. OK, so part of the next step is to think about kind of the massing and the scale of some of these places. And so I think we're going to work with the city staff and with the steering committee and with the public when we have the next public meeting in the spring around kind of what those areas could look like in terms of scale and the other sort of pieces of it that would inform future policy like zoning. Um, you know, we don't want people to get too stuck on architecture and some of those details about the things we don't want. People to get too stuck. On is it a shoe store? Is it a. You know, clothing store, which is generally what happens with public. And so I think we're going to use that the 3d twin and the idea of scenario planning as a tool to get people to think about kind of what makes sense from built environment perspective. So you will see that stuff again.

I went last night as well, and it's impressive what you're doing. And one of the issues I think that you have to tackle is sitting around our tables. There's a lot of, and it's very similar to the question that was just addressed, there's a lot of what's wrong right now. It's flooding in my backyard right now. And sure, that goes to the bigger visionary permeability and all that, but it's hard to get the more visionary. You know, what is our who is our city to be in whatever number of years going into the future? Because most of it is an immediate concern. Except that I do agree with you, Ira. It doesn't matter what question you ask. Every table that I bopped around to, no matter what the question they were on, it was Hanley Road is so dangerous. It didn't matter. We could be talking about whatever. It was always Hanley Road, Hanley Road. But I think that's really a challenge to make sure that we're going toward that vision and then filling in what that looks like in the details because a lot of the conversation is Now, the present, the present.

I will say that is probably the most frustrating part about doing this for a living is that people do not think in the long term. And so I do think it's important that elected officials like you all can help people think in the longterm because that is not what people usually do. And that is kind of a unique position that you're all in is that you get to make choices about policies that are more long-term impacts and And so I think that is sort of a never-ending struggle at these meetings, is to get people to think a little bigger than the sidewalk outside of their house or the one thing that they want to think about. So I don't know that I have necessarily a solution, but it is a thing we have to just keep getting people to think about. That's part of where those vibrancy cards come in is people are like, what does that really mean? Like, how can we achieve that sort of vibrant Clayton that people talk about is getting a little more specific on what that means in the long term.

Yeah, and I was really encouraged to when you put up for both the livable communities and this, the priorities because these are people might say, I don't like the bike lane, the way it's set up on Maryland, but we need a more bike community. And that's a very good example. And capturing that big picture, I think, is how does it all come together over time? So I am very encouraged to see that and the working together between the two plants, the overlaps and making sure that everyone comes together. And having the meeting together is wonderful, too, because you're right. People are struggling, first of all, keeping straight what's what and then coming to one meeting. So

yes, there's a very neat Venn diagram that will hopefully clarify for people how they relate to each other and what they mean. So I'm hopeful. Thanks. Hey,

Becky,

your

question? Thanks. Yeah, I have a couple of questions and then a couple of comments. So in the section on land use planning and scenario ideating, you talked about two things I'd like to clarify. So when you talk about the... I forget exactly the language you used, but something about concern about the edges of downtown. Can you talk about... what you mean by that. I might be making some

assumptions about it, but I would totally, I think people have said a few things. So concerns related to downtown kind of bleeding into neighborhoods. So edges, meaning edges of downtown going out. I think there's been some concerns at meetings around that and what that looks like and where it's happening and where it's not happening and how, if we're thinking 20 years down the line, kind of what that's going to look like. I think there's also thoughts around some areas of downtown that haven't been the focus because they're not sort of the main section of downtown and maybe they need some thinking, maybe they need some focus. And if we were going to focus on those areas, what should we do? So I would say those are the two biggest pieces around kind of those edges of downtown.

Okay. Thank you. And then when you talked about areas that have been identified as possibly ripe for transition, I think you had a few areas highlighted on the map that were in or around downtown. And I'm curious about who identified those areas of transition and if you're going to look at others, because I think there are some in Ward 1, for example, that um that we'd love to hear about

yes so those areas came out of kind of the early engagement and a lot of the stakeholder meetings and that kind of stuff and it was really just the kind of the first stab at the exercise of thinking about kind of what the land uses look like in those areas and what they could look like in the future so certainly there will be in all the wards and that was a question we specifically talked through last night and at the ward three meeting was can you identify some of those areas in your ward so we can do that same exercise there

yeah

Great.

Excellent. And then a couple of things, you just mentioned a Venn diagram and I don't know if anybody else has seen, but Great Rivers Greenway and TrailNet has put out this really cool Venn diagram that shows how they're different and how they overlap. So is that, have you actually published it yet or you're working? I have not. Okay. So I

haven't missed it.

No,

you haven't missed it, but that's exactly the idea is that people are trying to kind of understand sort of what department does the livable communities plan fall under? Like how's the parks and rec involved versus planning department that maybe is more involved with the comp plan process. What are the things that overlap those kinds of things? Cause there, we are cognizant of the fact that there's like surveys and meetings and a lot of things. And if you don't think about planning and you don't think About kind of what's happening with the city of Clayton a lot, it feels like a lot. And so that is really just like a welcome board at the beginning of this shared public meeting that says like, okay, you're here today to talk about these two things, but they're really connected in these ways.

Okay, that's awesome. Two suggestions kind of going off of something that Ira alluded to is like, my daughter did not play basketball, but my understanding is that during basketball season, the center of Clayton is full of people and parents of children playing basketball. So that might, you know, I think to the point, like you're gonna have to keep going to them to get them. You can't expect them to come to something outside of their normal schedule in the volume that folks otherwise can, folks in other demographics. And then the other suggestion was, I was super excited when we like put up the signs in the neighborhoods. Mm-hmm. And I would love to see us think about like how to like refresh that or like do another round. Like what, like, like, like what kind of, what might've resonated on those signs with people and how could you frame something different that might catch different people's attention? attention or make them give a second look and like maybe like not use any words that are related to zoning and planning and just be like do you want to tell us what your neighborhood should look like in 20 years or whatever like I don't know but like just refreshing that signage because it's people after it's been there for a while it becomes invisible right yeah thank you very much

there will be banners and yard signs up for these shared the December 5th meeting. So you'll see those around town on the banners will go on like city hall and some of the parks that have kind of like banner stand things already. Cool. Thanks.

Alderman Gary Feder.

Alderman Fader.

Okay.

Right. So one of the big things on our kind of list of things to ask people at the December 5 public meeting is about trade offs. There's a lot of trade offs that everyone has to think about when we think about how to develop a city and so we've talked about things like, you know, wider sidewalks to allow for dining space take room from Driving lanes, you know, things like that take away parking. So some of those physical trade-offs, but then also something like you could allow someone to go up a story in exchange for. requiring an affordable unit or you know things like that and so I think what we're trying to get in December is where do people fall on kind of the spectrum of those trade-offs do does everybody fall in the middle and then we're going to have to have some conversations about where we where we want to go or do people lean one way or another and so we can think about if it's worth considering some of those trade-off and I think some of those financial incentives could those discussions are going to be perhaps directed by the results of those trade-off discussions.

I would say... I'm wondering, and this may be later in the process, but I think sometimes when we have coffees and we have discussions about what people want, they want more affordable housing, they want more retail, and we talk about the market, and we also talked about assuming incentives were even attractive to developers there's a price tag associated with that, which is essentially if we give a lot of revenue away, we have to figure out some way to get it. And then sort of the inevitable, at least theoretically, that means if you take it to a logical extreme, are you, for example, willing to support a tax increase at some point to make up for the revenue that you give up? So that's kind of that bold question that I don't know is even part of your process.

Yeah, so one of the things that's going to happen at the December 5th public meeting is that there's going to be a game board in the middle of the room where people will get a hypothetical $100 to spend on things. You could spend all $100 in one place or you could spend $10 in 10 places. And so we are going to find out, is anybody willing to spend their money on things like that? We'll see.

So one other just, it seems to me, and I think this again will happen later in the process. But if I recall, like when some of the prior master planning was done, like with downtown, there really were designations for certain areas and the plan at least suggested, you know, this particular block or two, really there should be more height limitations or this and this because they're close to neighborhoods. So we all know there's a major, we could all pick four or five major sites in the next five years that are fairly large, that may or may not be subject to development. But the minute just take US Bank, which was in the news that it's for sale at Hanley and Forsyth. And the very fact that it was simply in the paper drew a lot of people's attention who said, well, what's the city? What's the thinking there about that site? So it seems to me if this plan will ultimately designate certain areas and certain recommendations That will clearly draw people out, certainly the people who live nearby, because at the end of the day, it's always much harder to get people to sort of come to meetings to talk generally about their vision. Once you talk about specific sites and you start talking about potentially how you're going to limit it or expand it, I think we'll get more people. We may still not get young people, but we'll get more once there's something a little more concrete to respond to.

Yeah, makes sense. Thanks.

So my questions are broadly about process. So I've not participated in something like this before. And so I want to make sure I understand certain aspects of the process. So the first broad question is, is there anything unique about this engagement or this process compared to any of the other engagements you've been involved in?

I would say in some communities engagement is not a focus that's typically something that's directed by the elected body, but I want a lot of folks involved or I don't want a lot of focus and Bob because you never know what you're going to hear. So I would say that it is more of a focus here in the city plate and then it is another communities. So just being a priority and trying really hard to get those demographics that maybe aren't naturally coming to your sort of standard public meeting. There's lots of communities that do a comprehensive plan and have like two big public meetings at their city hall and that's it. So I would say you all are trying a lot harder than some places to reach people. You're not going to reach everybody, but you are definitely trying harder than the average community.

And it strikes me, and this has been a theme, I think, but it strikes me that we're asking people to weigh in on things that they have no experience having weighed in on in the past. And so I think that's hard to get the information that you're probably seeking. And then the flip side to that is that when you survey... At least some of the feedback I get back is that perhaps we're trying to control a destiny by asking certain questions and trying to validate what we want to get at the end. So I guess my question is, how do we make sure that isn't a result?

Yes. So the first piece of that, I would say speaks to the whole, everybody wants to talk about just the flooding in their backyard because they don't know a lot about zoning. They don't know about a lot about the ramifications of a comprehensive plan on what it means for their community or for their backyard. And so part of our job is to take what they do know about and figure out what that means. So if they do have flooding concerns in their backyard, does that mean that we need to change our lot coverage requirements? Or does that mean that we need to change something about the density in certain areas? So it is our job as the professionals to kind of pull from what the person that doesn't know a lot about comprehensive planning. says about what they'd like to see in their community, run it through market information, think about what it means from a land use and planning perspective, and then figure out kind of what that ultimately means for comp plan and policy. So that would be part one of your question. Part two of your question around the surveys is, Ultimately, I mean, I like to say as a third party, that's sort of the advantage of hiring someone like me is that I don't live in Clayton and I don't have an ulterior motive to what happens in the city of Clayton that people might think that folks like you might have. I don't believe that you do, but I think that sometimes that happens. The public thinks that an elected body has an ulterior motive about what they think about things. And so I think that's why cities like you all hire people like us so that It is an outside perspective. We do get to engage with folks and say, you know, I don't live on your street. So can you tell me about what the experience is like? And then I can come back to you all with that sort of third party view of what everyone said. So ultimately, that's how I hope people see the survey as well, because we don't have any kind of motivations. I don't have a grand vision for what I think Clayton should look like. So that's part of the process is that we're kind of facilitators of that.

And I'm curious in these broad community engagement events, when there's a facilitator, it would strike me that you could run the risk that there is a particular dominant voice that wants to control the flow of information. How do we make sure that people don't feel like they either weren't heard or that just because that person was really loud, that that's going to receive more emphasis?

Mm-hmm. It is a risk. And I think that there was, there's a loud person at every table. That's sort of how it always shakes out. But it is our job to try to hear from those other folks. So after the meeting last night, for example, I talked to a few people that were at my table that didn't say as much during the big group. so that I could hear their feedback because maybe they just weren't comfortable in the big group or maybe they disagreed or kind of don't know about that. But that's why we've got professional facilitators to help kind of pull that out of there to try to get as much as we can. At the Ward 3 meeting, I got like a written statement from a woman who didn't participate very much in the sitting down kind of workshop meeting, but she had prepared a written statement of a few pages of typed information. So I think we just have to figure out all the ways we can read from people.

In my last comment, and maybe this is true of every ward, but Right now in Ward 1, which Becky and I represent, we've got major issues regarding land use at Concordia Seminary. And so we just had a coffee, and it was pretty clear that there were a lot of people that just wanted to focus only on that. And so how do we make sure that, and you may don't necessarily have to answer this now, but I guess it's a request to make sure we don't only focus on that at our upcoming meeting.

Okay, that's good to know.

That's a great questions. You know, as we get, we learn more about this, I think there'll be more, more great questions. I have a couple, and then I would like to ask our plan commission members that are attending if they have any, but I noticed that last night, at least at one of the tables I sat at, I thought you guys asked a really great question that would maybe lead people to think in a more long-term and more of a, have a more of a vision for the city. And that was, if you could have anything you wanted in Clayton, what would it be? And at my table, it turned out to be performing arts. But I don't know if you got to ask that at every table. I guess I'm asking that, but also encouraging that kind of question just to try to get people thinking big. Because I think Clayton is the kind of community that should think big. And so that kind of gets people off of, you know, the crack in the sidewalk by their house. So I don't know. Did you... try to integrate that in more discussions than just the one I've sat in on?

Yeah. So there's been a couple of opportunities for people to provide that kind of big picture feedback, you know, a board at the first open house was around, like, if you could imagine Clayton in 20 years, what would it look like? Like those kinds of questions. So that's certainly been something we've been asking throughout the process, but it's good to know that you think that's a a good thing to engage with people on and we can keep doing it. I think it sort of

frees the mind up to start thinking about not just the tight little corner that they're in. And then I was wondering, like you said, there's a ton of information coming out from all different directions here. How, maybe you said this, but how are we going to sort of report back to the participants and say, you know what, here's what you guys told us. A, did we miss something or do you generally agree with this? Because when you're gone and we are implementing or creating policies around the outcome of this, I mean, Undoubtedly, people are going to say, oh, I don't remember that. That was never part of the discussion. But it'd be great if a lot of people did remember, oh, yeah, that's something that we sort of agreed on as a community and we've said this is what we wanted. Yeah. So what part of the process, how are you going to pull that together? Yeah.

Yeah, so a couple ways. So, first of all, we recommend that everybody includes all of the results of community engagement as an appendix to your comprehensive plan. So all of the notes from people's little sticky notes that they put on all these boards, so it's documented and people can see that their voice was heard and then it's sort of kept somewhere real. So that's thing number one, I would recommend that you all do that. And then the second piece is that at the open house in the spring, there will be some, at that open house, there'll be more things for people to kind of look at and think like, do I like this or do I not? But that's also the place for us to say, like, you said these five things. And so is this, did we get this right? Like, is this kind of what you were thinking when you said those five things about your flooding backyard and your sidewalk crack. And you know, we obviously have to get it to be a little bit bigger picture. And so that would be the place to do that at that next big public meeting in the spring.

Thank you. Great presentation. Thank you. Thank you, Anna. And oh, yeah, I forgot. I forgot you guys. We still have five minutes or so. Yeah. Do you guys have some questions that you'd like to ask?

First, I

have a comment.

Come on up to the mic.

I'm Steve Lichtenfeld, Chairman of the Planning Commission. I really appreciate all the comments from the elected officials. I think that's really the first time we've heard it, except, of course, Bridget, you're on the committee also. But I do have a question for Catherine. And in our steering committee, a couple times it came up that as we're looking inwardly to where we want to go as a city, we also thought, where do we sit in relation to the region? I didn't see anything come up anywhere about that comment in any of the meetings that you've had outside.

Good question. So in the existing conditions report, that is actually something the steering committee asked about because we had a comparison geography when we first presented to the steering committee, which included the five county area that Clayton falls within and around. And the steering committee said, well, could we think a little bit more strategically about that geography? Could we compare our housing to communities that are more similar to us? Could we compare our commercial environment to communities that maybe have more in common with us? And so we did go back and do some additional analysis in the existing conditions report. I'm sorry, I'm not looking at you. around comparison places, because I think that that was a really helpful piece to think about how Clayton fits within the region. So from a data perspective, we did do that. We heard a lot at the public meetings, good and bad, related to how Clayton relates to the surrounding communities. So I think that is going to continue to be part of the discussion. I think Some of the things we hear are very positive related to the relationship with surrounding communities and some of them are very negative. And so what it means in terms of decisions you might want to make around your future development or your population, I think is going to be a tricky discussion. But it's certainly part of it.

that makes me think of another question because this came up at one of the tables last night then i'll ask you if you have any more questions um so the question was around affordable housing or the topic and and what does affordable housing really mean that wasn't discussed it was just the idea of it and one of the comments that someone made was you know are we do we need to consider our city in a vacuum Or should we be considering it, like you said, in relation to nearby communities? In other words, maybe there are nearby communities that have affordable housing and maybe, you know, maybe there are even some within almost walking distance of Clayton. So how do we think about that? How do people feel about that, I guess, is... sort of that question that someone was asking?

Yes.

Are we exploring stuff like that?

As part of the existing conditions analysis, we did look at kind of what would affordable housing look like in Clayton. So what does affordability look like here in terms of how much does it cost to live here? And then how does that relate to the amount of money that people make both here and in the region at large? So the kind of pure data answer to this is in the existing conditions report. What you do with that is a big question, right? Is the situation that exists right now the situation that you want to exist moving forward? Are you okay with the spread of available housing here in terms of affordability? That is sort of a question you all have to wrestle with. I think I heard many responses to that at various public meetings. I heard everything from, I wish that we had more affordable housing for certain demographics in Clayton to I don't think Clayton needs to fulfill that role because Richmond Heights can. So I think that is the tricky part, is that not everyone agrees around how you all want to fit in the region. I think the phase one, the existing conditions, tells us how you do fit in the region, what the data says around what the housing is and how that relates to your population, how you want it to look as part of this process that we have to figure out.

And I mean, I guess what I'm hoping is that how we want it to look, we'll get that input from the community. It won't just be us trying to figure it out yeah and the same can be said of retail

right absolutely

okay okay you guys do you have any more questions or comments helen nothing okay carolyn you've written us a number of questions and i've written some of them down um one of the last ones you put forth and i don't know do you just do you want to speak yourself or do you want me to read your questions

Which one?

I'm interested now in the last question, which is how do we plan for less office being desired?

Well, I'm just wondering how this entire plan can... Honestly, I mean, how much office space has been lost because of COVID. And now I'm at an office right now in Fairview Heights and we go in two days a week, maybe. But I think the social implications of that is huge. Plus, I don't know what it means for the architecture. Do we need all that office space and how do we transform it into something else? That's my question, really. It's like kind of what do we do?

Okay, so as part of the existing conditions analysis, we did look at how much space you have, what it looks like in terms of lease rates, how much it costs, how much people have returned in terms of visitation. So again, that existing conditions phase is really just giving you a baseline understanding of what it looks like right now. So what we do with that information is the question. And so we've talked a lot with the steering committee and with the public around what are the options in terms of reuse of some of the office space in downtown, both which properties and also just the type of reuse we'd like to see if we're not an office centric downtown, what do we want to be? So I think those questions are certainly something that we're talking about and wrestling with. I don't think there's a clear answer because we still don't really know what's going to happen. But the data that there's not an answer nationwide totally on it. So, yeah. I can't, I think the answer was 66%, if I can remember correctly, in terms of the return to pre-pandemic visitation numbers. So, but I don't know that we necessarily want to plan on that means 66% of your office space is going to go away, right? Like that's one data point for us to think about and then think about how we might want to transition some pieces of it.

Right. But lack of office space, a lot of our restaurants and things like that rely on having people coming downtown to work. So if that goes away, then it has a domino effect. So that was my concern. But honestly, I don't have an answer for it either. I really i'm perplexed i i really wish everybody would come back and engage with people um it's upsetting to me um so i

heard katherine i heard from someone that you're actually looking at even like and i don't think you said this but like what are the heights of the Floors in these buildings and what type of like are they class a office space and could they be converted, what would it look like for them to be converted to residential use and like, you know, creative things like that.

Yes, we did talk about that with the steering committee identifying parts of downtown. that have maybe a higher concentration of Class B or Class C office space. Because one of the things we do know about the office market is that Clayton has a very strong office market because you all have the most Class A office space. And as people consolidate and think about what is worth it in terms of office space, people are moving to Class A office space, and so Class B and Class C office space is much less desirable. And if you have less demand, it's just going to kind of fall off. thinking about geographically where those concentrations of that office space is so that we can plan for the future, whether it is redevelopment into residential or reuse of the building, which can be done in some cases and not really in others. So that's part of it for sure.

Great. So you're going to look at those nodes?

Yes.

Point them out to us. Correct. Perfect. Any other comments or questions, guys? All right, Anna, anything you want to tell us that hasn't been said?

No, I

think. Okay, very good. Thank you very much, Catherine.

We'll see you next time. Yeah, I hope I see you at the ward one meeting.

Definitely see those guys. Okay. So if it's okay with everybody, we'll just go right into our seven o'clock meetings. Yep. Okay. Will the city clerk please call the roll?

Alderman Berkowitz. Here. Alderman McAndrew. Here. Alderwoman Buse. Here. Aldermen Patel.

Here.

Aldeman Gary Feder.

Aldeman Fader.

Here.

Aldemann Rick Hummell.

Aldemann Hummel.

Here.

Mayor Harris. Here. City Manager David Gipson. Here. City Attorney O'Keefe. Here. Thank you.

Mayor Harris. Here. City Manager Gibson. Here. City Attorney O'Keefe. Here. Thank you.

Okay, great. Now's the time in our meeting when we went well for public requests and petitions. So if someone is here or online that has a topic for us that is not on our agenda, now is your opportunity to please let me know, sir. Do you have a, yeah, come on up.

Oh, you're on the

agenda.

That's Tom.

Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't know. I didn't Moving along then, the public hearing regarding the use permit for Davis Drive. So I will open the public hearing and request proof of publication.

Thank you. This is a public hearing and subsequent resolution to consider granting a conditional use permit to Thomas and Emily Guion, owners of 7827 Davis Drive, to allow for the construction of an addition to a single family home containing a 741 square foot attached accessory dwelling unit. The property has a zoning designation of R2, single family dwelling district. The Planning Commission and Architectural Review Board considered the application and associated architectural plans for the project on November 6th, 2023, and recommended approval of the CUP and approved the architectural plans. An accessory dwelling unit, I apologize, ADU is a type of accessory structure, either attached or detached, which provides complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking, and sanitation, and is located on the same site as the principal residence. ADUs are permitted subject to the approval of a conditional use permit. and specific criteria contained within the city's zoning regulations. The proposed ADU is located on the first floor of the single family home on the property. The area is connected to the main living space, but can also be accessed directly from an exterior door. The owners have stated that any occupant of the space will be related by blood, marriage or adoption or employed by the occupants of the principal residence. The plan commission voted unanimously to recommend approval of the CUP with the following conditions. First, all conditions of chapter 405 article two section 405.330 shall be adhered to And secondly, the applicant shall record a deed restriction pursuant to item three under criteria for review with the St. Louis County Recorder of Deeds Office and submit proof of the required deed restriction to the city prior to the issuance of a building permit. Staff recommends that the Board of Aldermen conduct a public hearing and consider approving the resolution granting a conditional use permit for a 741 square foot attached ADU for 7827 Davis Drive. And Mr. Guion is here this evening.

Okay. Well, before I open up for questions, Mr. Guillen, would you like to address the board in any way? Or you can just answer the questions if they have any. It's up to you.

Okay.

All right. Very good. I'll open it up to the board then for questions or comments. We'll just go in order of seniority. Head shaking. No question. Okay. Susan, no questions.

No.

Here?

No. Okay. Oh, and so lovely neighbors. I'm happy to support their application.

Okay. Since there are no questions from anybody, no comments, I will close the public hearing.

to move to approve resolution number 2023-34 granting a conditional use permit for 7827 davis drive to allow for an attached accessory dwelling unit

second um any discussion okay all those in all those in favor aye

aye

opposed okay Mr. Guion, you are good to go. Good night. Okay, city manager report.

Yes, one item tonight. The Board of Aldermen approved the fiscal year 2426 Collective Bargaining Agreement or CBA with the International Association of Firefighters Local 2665 in September of 2023. One key provision in the CBA is This is City of Clayton's commitment to registering and covering the cost for every member to join the Missouri Firefighters Critical Illness Pool. This pool was established to provide cancer benefits for the state's firefighters, helping to alleviate the physical and financial challenges associated with serious health issues. Eligibility for this coverage is determined based on years of service with a fiscal year 24 cost of $4,788.50 to cover eligible members. This expense was included in the fiscal year 24 operating budget. Staff recommends that the Board of Aldermen approve an ordinance allowing participation in the Missouri Firefighters Critical Illness Trust and Pool and authorize the city manager to execute any necessary documents for plan administration.

Okay, very good. Open the discussion. Any questions, comments? I just

had one. What is the longevity? How long do you have to be a firefighter before you're part of the pool?

I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, it's five years.

And is there a reason for that? I mean, if you're a firefighter and you've had a serious situation, I mean, wouldn't you want to, I mean, whether you're there five years or two months.

This is typically related to cancers related to being a firefighter. So I imagine they have the five-year provision in there because it's something that's typically caused by multiple exposures rather than a single incident or a short period of time.

I

couldn't tell you exactly why the pool put that in place, but I would imagine that's the reason. Right, so you don't have somebody who was maybe a firefighter for six months. They get some other type of cancer later in life that could be completely unrelated to that time as a firefighter, and then they would go ahead and get that particular benefit.

Firefighters, they have access to workers' compensation?

They do, and this can be used in conjunction with that in addition to other benefits that are out there and available.

In

addition,

right. It's not a set-off to workers' compensation. It's a separate benefit. I would also add, in addition to city managers and systems, we don't have the prerogative of changing the eligibility standards that are established by the pool.

I understand. I wasn't asking that. I just wanted to know why. I didn't know what the reason was. Okay, good. Thanks.

Other comments, questions? No? Okay, very good.

I'd like to introduce bill number 6998, allowing participation in the Missouri Firefighters Critical Illness Trust and Pool and authorize the city manager to execute any necessary documents for plan administration to be read for the first time by title only.

Second. Any discussion? Okay, Mr. City Attorney.

Bill number 6998, first reading an ordinance of the city of Clayton, Missouri to participate in the Missouri Firefighters Critical Illness Trust and Pool and further authorizing the city manager to execute such documents as may be necessary for the city's participation therein.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Aye. Aye.

Opposed? Thanks.

I move that the board give unanimous consent to consideration for adoption of bill number 6998 on the day of its introduction.

Seconded. All

those in favor? Aye.

Opposed? Okay, let the minutes reflect. The board is given unanimous consent.

I'd like to introduce bill number 6998, allowing participation in the Missouri Firefighters Critical Illness Trust and Pool and authorize the city manager to execute any necessary documents for planned administration through it for the second time by title only.

Second. Any discussion? Okay, Mr. City Attorney.

Bill number 6998, second reading and consideration for adoption. An ordinance of the City of Clayton, Missouri to participate in the Missouri Firefighters Critical Illness Trust and Pool and further authorizing the city manager to execute such documents as may be necessary for the city's participation therein.

Alderman Berkowitz? Aye. Alderman McAndrew? Aye. Alderwoman Buse? Aye. Aldermen Patel? Aye. Aldeman Gary Feder? Aye. Aldernan Rick Hummell? Aye.

Alderman Berkowitz? Aye. Alderman McAndrew? Aye. Alderwoman Buse? Aye. Aldermen Patel? Aye. Aldeman Fader? Aye. Aldernan Hummel? Aye.

Okay. And then the consent agenda, the only thing is the minutes,

correct? All the minutes.

Yeah. So we can discuss it or anybody have any additions? Okay. Move

to approve the consent agenda.

Second. Alderman Berkowitz.

Aye.

Alderwoman McAndrew. Aye. Alderman Buse. Aye. Aldermen Patel. Aye. Aldeman Gary Feder. Aye. Aldemann Rick Hummell. Aye. Mayor Harris. Aye. Thank you.

Alderwoman McAndrew. Aye. Alderman Buse. Aye. Aldermen Patel. Aye. Aldeman Fader. Aye. Aldemann Hummel. Aye. Mayor Harris. Aye. Thank you.

okay let's um do a round table see what people have been up to and then after that we'll go into our closed session so we'll start with um our senior our our mayor pro tempore

um had a parks and rec commission meeting last week there were two major items on the agenda uh one involved i don't know a 7,000-foot flag to be placed at Shaw Park or something. I don't know. It was something to do with somebody wanting to make a contribution, major contribution through CCF to replace the flag we have and make one and replace it with another one which would be quite a bit larger. And so the Park Commission discussed all that and didn't come to any conclusions. They wanted to see how it would look, perhaps, wherever it was, wherever the site was considered. And they're going to come back to it at the next meeting. But just letting you all, just wanted to flag the situation for everyone.

This has come up before, you know that, right? About five or six years ago. I think it may be the same person.

Oh, okay. The other was we went over the survey for the pool, the public survey, and not to go over all the details, but for the most part, for probably the 14th year in a row, The issue of the cleanliness of the lockers becomes an issue for people. Most people do not think that there is – well, I don't say most. Let's just say the scores for just about everything else came out ahead of the issue of cleanliness of the And I know because I've been on Fox and Rec many times over the last 13 years, and this is a problem and it's consistent. And I don't know that they even now have an answer to it. But for the most part, the participants of the pool are not happy with the cleanliness of the locker rooms. So Tony is going to try again back to the drawing board and see what she can do to make things a lot cleaner over there. But overall, the survey came out very well. The pool staff got actually very, very high marks. And the individual comments that were made, there was a slew of individual comments. And probably we could all guess what many of those comments were in terms of increasing the hours of the pool than they are now. And so that was consistent with what I thought would happen. But overall, the survey came out, I think, mostly excellent in goods for almost every category. So that was the meeting.

Anything else from you? Okay. Bridget?

Yeah, I guess it's been a busy couple of weeks. David and I met with Nisha, Dr. Patel, and Tony came as well. and uh forgive me i'm forgetting the the cfo for the school district he was there as well um just because i think we need to continue the discussion with the school district about the health of the center of clayton so that we're not finding ourselves i guess surprising surprising them i you know i think just making sure that the communication is a little bit better. And Jason Growe was there as well. I don't know if I said that or the school board. So I think Tony and her team are going to kind of look at like what the base cost of running the building is versus looking at programmatic costs and just kind of really look at revenue, more revenue generating possibilities in the building, or at least being able to tell you know, us and I think the school board that, you know, we are really pretty maxed out in terms of what we can program at the center. So, but I thought it was a good discussion. I think we'll meet again maybe in like February or March to kind of see what thoughts are from tony and her team um uh we just talked about i went to the word three meeting uh great attendance um gary and i had a polo meeting at the it's usually actually held in someone's home but they had to think somebody at the last minute got sick where it was supposed to be held. So we had it at the center. And for not a very big neighborhood, I mean, Polo's not that big. I mean, they always show up. So there was great attendance. We talked a lot about a lot of different things. Al was there because the chief was busy, which we really appreciated. He did a great job. So that was good. We had a plan commission meeting last week. It was a pretty short agenda. Talked about Tom's ADU. We also talked about there's going to be a new, if people don't know, there's going to cigar bar basically right next to CJ Muggs. So they're doing some addition, not additions. Where

Yeah, I guess it's been a busy couple of weeks. David and I met with Nisha, Dr. Patel, and Tony came as well. and uh forgive me i'm forgetting the the cfo for the school district he was there as well um just because i think we need to continue the discussion with the school district about the health of the center of clayton so that we're not finding ourselves i guess surprising surprising them i you know i think just making sure that the communication is a little bit better. And Jason grow was there as well. I don't know if I said that or the school board. So I think Tony and her team are going to kind of look at like what the base cost of running the building is versus looking at programmatic costs and just kind of really look at revenue, more revenue generating possibilities in the building, or at least being able to tell you know, us and I think the school board that, you know, we are really pretty maxed out in terms of what we can program at the center. So, but I thought it was a good discussion. I think we'll meet again maybe in like February or March to kind of see what thoughts are from tony and her team um uh we just talked about i went to the word three meeting uh great attendance um gary and i had a polo meeting at the it's usually actually held in someone's home but they had to think somebody at the last minute got sick where it was supposed to be held. So we had it at the center. And for not a very big neighborhood, I mean, Polo's not that big. I mean, they always show up. So there was great attendance. We talked a lot about a lot of different things. Al was there because the chief was busy, which we really appreciated. He did a great job. So that was good. We had a plan commission meeting last week. It was a pretty short agenda. Talked about Tom's ADU. We also talked about there's going to be a new, if people don't know, there's going to cigar bar basically right next to CJ Muggs. So they're doing some addition, not additions. Where

Katarina's was? Yes, exactly where

Katarina's is. So I don't love cigars, but you know, it's, they seem very excited. So it's going to be very upscale place. They're doing some decorative things to the front of it. So they were on. And then Gary and I also had a word three coffee last weekend where there was really like multiple rows of people there. So it was very, very, very well attended. Yeah, so it was a busy couple weeks.

I'll just add a couple things on to Ira's report on Parks and Rec. The flag was, the proposed flag is two or three times taller than the existing flag there. And there was concern about why and questions about scale. So that again was A little bit of skepticism. The reports are really great. One thing that I found of interest is one of, of course, on the surveys, there was a group of people who talked about extending the pool hours beyond Labor Day and lap swim and everything else. And the decision is going to be made that the current plan is to make that decision July 1st of next year. There was some discussion about the sooner that decision can be made earlier in the season, the better that might be just to keep things going smoothly and not have the same kind of difficulties we had this year in trying to make that decision and go forward and keep everybody happy. Otherwise, I think that, what else was there on Parks and Rec? remembrance park is still a little bit delayed i guess but it's coming along um meeting with the contractors on wednesday on that then i also had uh the first uniformed employee employee retirement fund uh meeting that i was able to make and uh gary was there as well and you know bottom line it seems that the investments and everything seemed solid and There was not a lot, they went through a lot of charts and everything else, but everything seemed to be in good hands and positive and moving forward on that. And then we did have our award to comprehensive planning meeting last night. Again, Hanley wrote in whatever table I walked to, there were people were talking about Hanley. And that was fantastic. that was a concern. At the same time, there were conversations about wanting the restaurants and the businesses along at the corner with Y-Down to continue to grow and to be prosperous yet again don't have the parking associated with it. So then it went into DU Park downtown and require restaurants to have shuttles, help fund shuttles back and forth. So people were kind of thinking. There was also talk about maybe a bridge over Brentwood for that whole access to the park. So some of the Some of the comments were kind of big thinking things to keep the accessibility and keep our streets open and not just more cars. What else of interest came up? And again, we just hit, we walked around the tables and just hit different conversations. And I know both Ira and David were there as well.

Well, I was there too. And Michelle, I'm sorry. It's at the pension board meeting, just FYI. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sorry I didn't

mention that. I'm feeling left out. Because I guess it's an assumption, Michelle. I'm glad you clarified that. It was an assumption that you were there as well. And the only other thing that came up last night that I thought was really interesting is one of the tables was talking about taking the islands in the middle of our streets and clabbering on the areas. And apparently back in the day, They had apple trees or something else there and making them sustainable with native plantings and vegetables and things like that to have this neighborhood center that actually, you know, taught about our environment as part of who we are in our neighborhoods. And Michelle was very active this entire couple of weeks since the last meeting. I even saw her out walking the dog and so appreciate everything you do. Thank you. Oh, one other thing. I just, I'm sorry, Becky. I just wanna say thank you to our community. And I think that everything we do here, we do for each other and to support each other. And I know it's been a difficult week and the violence has happened. in the community and the people who've had to deal with it directly. And as well as all of us dealing with our neighbors. And I think we have to, we all are here because I think for all the right reasons, because we care. And that's at the basis of all these business conversations and everything else. But there's a lot of appreciation for what goes on in our community and with our staff and everybody else. So

thank you. Well said. And thank you for bringing that up. That's great. Yep.

All right. Rick alluded earlier to the Ward 1 coffee we hosted, which had our typical eight-person attendance. I thought we might get a few more people because Ward 1's got a little activity, but... We're still pretty chill. The major topic of discussion was the Concordia Wash U project and significant concerns about safety in general on Big Bend. So I think all of our north-south corridors are of concern to the residents that travel them. I attended the St. Louis Area Chamber Economic Outlook breakfast yesterday, Last week, some other folks were there and it was really cool. There were like 600 people there or something from all over. I'm tempted to say it was like a 15 county region. It's like a gigantic region that they're covering primarily hosted by greater St. Louis together with the area chambers. So that was just really kind of like exciting to see and think about like the future. like successes that we've had in our region recently and the potential for future success, especially when we work regionally and we don't compete with each other. I went straight from that to the St. Louis Racial Equity Summit. This is an event that was inaugurated in 2019, my forward through Ferguson. And so it's a definitely like an interesting event reminded of the similar theme that I took from when I first attended in 2019, which is that our community, like many or most in America, really has been segregated and areas have been disinvested and it's all been by design. And we will only improve the situation by working really intentionally to change that. And that one of the challenges in doing that work is that like it will be something that we haven't seen before. Like we can't, you know, you're like trying to build something that you haven't seen and that requires like imagination and faith and all of that. So there was a panel on the City of St. Louis Reparations Commission, which is pretty early in its process, but that's certainly something That'll be interesting to see how that goes and where they take that. You know, and another highlight that came out of the Ferguson commission report, and I think it's repeated. And as far as I know, continues to be true is that Clayton gets mentioned in these events very often because of the 15 to 20 year life expectancy differential between folks in our community and the communities that neighbor us to the North and the East. And the fact that we have these very real social determinants of health that impact our region and our ability to be um successful as a region um and so it's like obviously uh hard like it's hard to to hear you know that's how like how we're referenced which is not bad for Clayton and how do we um like use our like um the these assets that we have to like help our whole region be successful how can we you know that's just something I think about I don't have the answer um and then also had the um I would note um Chris schmies who chairs our Equity Commission was in attendance also um and other residents of Clayton too And then we had an equity committee meeting where Chief Smith gave a presentation, kind of an update on the police department and Joe, whose last name I don't know, Joe Steven. gave a presentation on the training that they use for de-escalation and things like that. Just a really excellent presentation as always, just really impressed with our department and the way folks are being proactive and working on excellent service and safety for our residents. And then the other thing that will make its way here at some point is a recommendation from that group related to bilingual or multilingual signage. And I'll sign off and let Rick Hummell talk about the non-uniformed retirement fund because he's much more expert in that area.

All right. Rick alluded earlier to the Ward 1 coffee we hosted, which had our typical eight-person attendance. I thought we might get a few more people because Ward 1's got a little activity, but... We're still pretty chill. The major topic of discussion was the Concordia Wash U project and significant concerns about safety in general on Big Bend. So I think all of our north-south corridors are of concern to the residents that travel them. I attended the St. Louis Area Chamber Economic Outlook breakfast yesterday, Last week, some other folks were there and it was really cool. There were like 600 people there or something from all over. I'm tempted to say it was like a 15 county region. It's like a gigantic region that they're covering primarily hosted by greater St. Louis together with the area chambers. So that was just really kind of like exciting to see and think about like the future. like successes that we've had in our region recently and the potential for future success, especially when we work regionally and we don't compete with each other. I went straight from that to the St. Louis Racial Equity Summit. This is an event that was inaugurated in 2019, my forward through Ferguson. And so it's a definitely like an interesting event reminded of the similar theme that I took from when I first attended in 2019, which is that our community, like many or most in America, really has been segregated and areas have been disinvested and it's all been by design. And we will only improve the situation by working really intentionally to change that. And that one of the challenges in doing that work is that like it will be something that we haven't seen before. Like we can't, you know, you're like trying to build something that you haven't seen and that requires like imagination and faith and all of that. So there was a panel on the City of St. Louis Reparations Commission, which is pretty early in its process, but that's certainly something That'll be interesting to see how that goes and where they take that. You know, and another highlight that came out of the Ferguson commission report, and I think it's repeated. And as far as I know, continues to be true is that Clayton gets mentioned in these events very often because of the 15 to 20 year life expectancy differential between folks in our community and the communities that neighbor us to the North and the East. And the fact that we have these very real social determinants of health that impact our region and our ability to be um successful as a region um and so it's like obviously uh hard like it's hard to to hear you know that's how like how we're referenced which is not bad for Clayton and how do we um like use our like um the these assets that we have to like help our whole region be successful how can we you know that's just something I think about I don't have the answer um and then also had the um I would note um Chris schmies who chairs our Equity Commission was in attendance also um and other residents of Clayton too And then we had an equity committee meeting where Chief Smith gave a presentation, kind of an update on the police department and Joe, whose last name I don't know, Joe Steven. gave a presentation on the training that they use for de-escalation and things like that. Just a really excellent presentation as always, just really impressed with our department and the way folks are being proactive and working on excellent service and safety for our residents. And then the other thing that will make its way here at some point is a recommendation from that group related to bilingual or multilingual signage. And I'll sign off and let Rick Hummel talk about the non-uniformed retirement fund because he's much more expert in that area.

Thank you. Okay, Gary. All

right. I think everybody I was going to talk about has already been talked about, but very quickly, the polo meeting was incredible. It's a small subdivision, but it's amazing. Everybody seems to know everybody else in that subdivision and a tremendous turnout. Our Ward 3 coffee, maybe because we hadn't had one in four or five months, but We really seemed to take over a large portion of Starbucks. And it was actually much more of a debate than it was Q&A about the future of Clayton. So it was quite a discussion. The program that was referenced at the Renaissance was a remarkable program. It was bigger than any bar mitzvah I've ever been to. So it was really, I mean, 600 people in that room was really quite a spectacle. And so it gave a lot of good feelings about regionalism. I don't think with all those people there, I think when they announced who the mayors were from various cities, first of all, Mayor Harris was the first one mentioned, but there weren't that many. And I guess it's still to me suggests that Clayton and and Michelle really are leaders in this, in this region in terms of this type of thing. So it was a very inspiring program. And the last thing, which was interesting, but somewhat on the same topic was at the, at the legislative committee. Uh, this week we had, uh, Pat Kelly, who's the head of the county municipal league. And he's really a wonderful resource because he talked a lot about things that are going on in Jeff city that have a big impact on Clayton. Um, a cap on property tax efforts to get rid of various sales tax, a lot of, a lot of financial issues that have a big impact on, um, on our future. And he's a, he's a great resource. And so it was a, it was a really, uh, I think it does a good discussion. And, um, I think we, we are having a meeting of, uh, community equity. Uh, well, it is, was referenced. We have some things coming up from the community equity commission and CCF is meeting this week. And, um. And our pension seems to be doing well. I don't always fully understand it, but I was there, whether it's uniform, non-uniform, we're doing well, as best I can tell.

Great. Rick.

Thanks. So I attended the Ward 1 coffee. I don't have anything to add on that. The non-uniformed employee retirement fund, we had our meeting on Monday. What I would say there is that we have four relatively new board members, one of which is a new employee member. So we welcome all of them. And one of the good things about the changing of the personnel or the composition of the committee is a lot of people will Questions about some of the most basic things that should be tested and reviewed and understood and things like responsibilities and duties and why do we do what we do and why don't we do it differently. So those are all good questions to get answered. Gary referenced the CCF meeting that's tomorrow, they'll be going through their officers and new board members, and then preparing for a meeting with us. on December the 19th. So that's all part of the discussion. And then, um, Bridget will be leading our CRSWC meeting on Friday. And so the part that is interesting to me there is the, um, marketing and communication plan, um, has been submitted and we'll discuss and review it at that meeting. So that's what I've done.

Okay. Well, um, I don't have a whole lot to add to all this. I want to just add to Gary's comment about Pat Kelly, the executive director of the Muni League. Pat spends about half of his time in Jeff City going around and talking to legislators trying to push various peanuts forward, really important ones. And most of what the league and we have lobbyists and they all work together with Pat on trying to prevent bad legislation, legislation that's bad for cities and promote legislation that's good for cities. And they really work hard at it. And he is really an expert. If you listen to radio stations or news, you'll often find Pat being interviewed. But so most of the priorities this year, which he mentioned at that meeting, are really all about local control, just retaining local control, which... know a lot has a lot to do with revenue sources but it could be other things too um the um chamber breakfast was was really great i would just add to what has been said to say that it was really an economic uh forum if you will it was about our economy and the economy of the region It was not considering crime and other things that we are all talking about too. Not that that's going to be ignored by anyone, but this was really a rah-rah about some of the recent wins and sort of a vision for how we can move forward to do better. had their new offices open in the plaza office tower and they have beautiful offices now and they are commandeering art from the art fair's emerging artists group so that's what they'll be hanging at least for a while so that's pretty cool and on that note I went to the recent art fair board meeting and this was a really good year They don't have all their numbers complete, but they did a survey of the artists. And hands down, they were very happy with their sales. They estimate that over $2 million worth of art was sold. And they did that by asking each booth what their rough sales were. And they took an average. And that is an average of about 12,000, 13,000 per booth. And so, um, but to over 2 million, so you can do the math on the sales tax on that, which is really good. So I know a lot of times we talk about, oh, well, does this really benefit us or not? You know, to, to, because we go to a lot of effort and I don't know what it costs to do it, but with public works and police and fire, et cetera, but, um, it was a really, I think it was a really good year for them. Um, and I also want to just let you know that, um, Chief and I and anyone, you know, different people, but we're continuing to work against or, you know, to solve the unhoused problem, not just in Clayton, but region wide. And I'll have a meeting tomorrow with Pat Kelly and Sam Page about it. Lisa Clancy is getting involved now. And, you know, we're continuing to have these meetings with St. Patrick's Center and the like to see what we can do. what we can do both for our own community, but to also see how we can help the region. And the last thing is on the note of getting more young people involved in the comp plan, tomorrow night is the MIAC meeting and you guys and the rest of your group, they're going to be sitting with Anna and going through the comp plan, and she's gonna be getting input from them. So I think they are the future as Ira said, and I think it will be great. So that's it for me. Anybody have any other questions or comments tonight? All right, so I think we can adjourn to our closed session if you'll read the ordinance.

We'll do that. I move that the Board of Aldermen hold a closed meeting with a closed vote and record as authorized by Section 610.021, Paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 of the Revised Statutes of Missouri relating to legal issues, real estate, and or personnel negotiation of a contract pursuant to Section 610.01, Paragraph 12, and or proprietary information pursuant to section 610.01 paragraph 15 and or information related to public safety and security measures pursuant to Section 610.021, Parts 18 and 19.

Very good. Second. Alderman Berkowitz? Aye. Alderwoman McAndrew? Aye. Alderman Buse? Aye. Aldermen Patel? Aye. Aldeman Gary Feder?

Very good. Second. Alderman Berkowitz? Aye. Alderwoman McAndrew? Aye. Alderman Buse? Aye. Aldermen Patel? Aye. Aldeman Fader?

Aye.

Aldemann Rick Hummell? Aye. Alden Harris? Aye.

Aldemann Hummel? Aye. Alden Harris? Aye.

Okay.

Okay, you

guys can head out. Thank you for coming.