Citation in context
June 3, 2019 — Meeting Minutes
Cited passage
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
The minutes of the regular meeting of May 20, 2019 were not presented for approval and will be presented for approval at the next meeting of June 17, 2019. Vice Chairman Ron Reim notes that the public hearings will be moved to the end of the Agenda, after New Business.
2 OLD BUSINESS
8021 VENETIAN DRIVE – ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD – ALTERATION/EXTERIOR RENOVATION
Director Susan M. Istenes summarizes the following staff report: “THIS ITEM WAS CONTINUED FROM THE MAY 20, 2019 MEETING SO THE APPLICANT COULD BRING IN SAMPLES OF THE FENCE MATERIAL FOR THE BOARD’S CONSIDERATION.
The subject property is located on the north side of Venetian Drive between South Brentwood Boulevard and South Meramec Avenue. The proposed project consists of the construction of a six foot tall vinyl fence along the rear property line. The Brazilian Blend color fence is proposed.
Vinyl is also not a preferred material per the Architectural Review Board Guidelines. Vinyl as a building material requires full Architectural Review Board approval, regardless of the amount proposed. Staff believes a metal or wood fence would be more compatible with the neighborhood character.
The proposed vinyl fence is located in the rear yard and therefore, not directly visible from the street. There are a few existing vinyl fences in the Davis Place Neighborhood that have been constructed without proper approvals. The Architectural Review Board has previously ruled to not approve new vinyl fences on other properties in the neighborhood to be consistent with the majority of neighborhood fences constructed of wood.
STAFF RECOMMENDATION APPROVE A FENCE CONSTRUCTED OF WOOD.”
SANDEEP SHARMA - HOMEOWNER
SS – We don’t have a privacy fence and we can see our neighbors at night and they can see us. We decided to put in a fence and looked at the neighborhood and wanted to do something similar and durable and less maintenance. It will be in the backyard. Our neighbors have vinyl fences. This vinyl fence has a life time warranty. We are proposing a color that will look good with my brick home. My neighbor who presented for me last time is ok with it. Alex Burger presented for me so he agrees with my fence and he is who will be looking at it. As a resident of Clayton, I see my neighbors fence rotting away. Maybe this is the right time to look forward to have more fence material options. Last time I showed photos of wood and vinyl fences and how they are different and how one is rotting and looks bad. I will request you guys look to the future and lets make the right decision to approve my fence.
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – Well we asked you bring in a sample and you did so do the members want to go touch it, feel it, see it?
RICHARD LINTZ – What is the material exactly?
SS – It is Chesterfield vinyl.
RICHARD LINTZ – So it is no the molded on on here?
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – It is vinyl.
RICHARD LINTZ – If you did the molded it is a composite material that we do approve, I think.
CITY PLAN COMMISSION/ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD COUNCIL CHAMBERS – CITY HALL MONDAY, JUNE 3, 2019 1730 (05:30 PM)
CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order by Vice Chairman Ron Reim at 1735.
ROLL CALL
Vice Chairman Ron Reim, Interim City Manager Janet Watson, Aldermanic Representative Richard Lintz, William Liebermann, Brian Maguire, Carolyn Gaidis answered roll call.
ALSO IN ATTENDANCE
Stephanie Karr, City Attorney Susan M. Istenes, AIPC, Planning Director
CHAIRMAN REQUESTS
Vice Chairman Ron Reim asked that all cell phones be turned off and that conversations take place outside the meeting room.
Vice Chairman Ron Reim also asks that anyone who speaks please spell out their last name.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
The minutes of the regular meeting of May 20, 2019 were not presented for approval and will be presented for approval at the next meeting of June 17, 2019.
Vice Chairman Ron Reim notes that the public hearings will be moved to the end of the Agenda, after New Business.
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – It is vinyl. RICHARD LINTZ – If you did the molded it is a composite material that we do approve, I think.
3 BRIAN MAGUIRE – Composite is just plastic with sawdust. It’s plastic.
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – Is there a texture on the material?
CAROLYN GAIDIS – On the plan it says 65 feet and on this it says 68 feet. *turns off mic – rest is not audible*
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – This material is a huge improvement from the previous materials of white, grey, black. The exterior is fused with the plastic which makes the structure of it which I would think would prevent it from delaminating.
BRIAN MAGUIRE – I’ve never been a fan of vinyl, composite, whatever we use as a name for plastic, I think the ordinance is important to keep the aesthetic of Clayton and I’m with staff there is other materials to make a fence out of.
WILLIAM LIEBERMANN – We made an exception for height of fences behind commercial buildings, are some of those vinyl material? When was this ordinance against vinyl put into place?
SUSAN ISTENES – Yes, all of that had to come before the ARB for approval and were before my time. This ordinance was put in place before my time also, longer than 9 years.
CAROLYN GAIDIS – When we look at the fences side by side, I’m inclined to vote for the wood fence. Vinyl is not an approved material and the ones we have approved have had special circumstances. One had sever erosion due to water runoff and replacing the posts as often as she was, was not in line with our goals of sustainability. I don’t know how much your neighbors will be looking at this one, but wood is always my choice.
SS – There is a house on Central that has this fence around their entire yard. There are a ton of homes that have vinyl fence. There are restaurants on Maryland and then the family center in Clayton that has vinyl fences.
WILLIAM LIEBERMANN – North of the family center is U-City, so that doesn’t concern us. Are the ones behind the commercial also taller?
SS – Yes they are white vinyl and taller.
WILLIAM LIEBERMANN – That was probably approved under special circumstances.
SS – It’s my backyard, no one sees it from the street. My next-door neighbor presented for me last time so he’s ok with it.
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – My neighbors have wooden fences, and one is continuously replacing their fence. They have children that play soccer and lacrosse, but they also have posts rotting out at the bottom. So I do think this has the potential to last longer?
RICHARD LINTZ – Aren’t all the wood fences treated which causes problems for sustainability also?
WILLIAM LIEBERMANN – Depends on the type of wood.
RICHARD LINTZ – I’m leaning with you Ron, it is in his back yard…
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – His neighbor presented for him…
WILLIAM LIEBERMANN – Depends on the type of wood. RICHARD LINTZ – I’m leaning with you Ron, it is in his back yard…
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – His neighbor presented for him…
4
RICHARD LINTZ – Knowing how many broken down wooden fences there are, it may be given the upgraded look. It might be time.
BRIAN MAGUIRE – Whenever someone comes in with a composite deck or vinyl fence, what they do is point to the neighbors that have them. What we discover is that they are fences no one pulled a permit for and they are actually in violation. If we start peppering Clayton with approved exceptions on top of that, then we need to review the ordinance all together, what’s the point of the ordinance if you can just not pull a permit or we approve it.
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – What would be the official process of having the alternative materials reviewed as apart of our ordinance and how to create a systematic evaluation as opposed to this piece by piece.
SUSAN ISTENES – We have an ordinance in play that is apart of the building code and we have our ARB Guidelines. I would suggest that if that is something this Board wants to consider that we take a look at the ARB Guidelines and make amendments to them possibly to allow this type of material, maybe in certain circumstances. That gets to how do we have a discussion about that with the BOA as well. In the past when we have changed ARB Guidelines, we sought their input and approval so to speak. That would probably require that as well and then we would have to change the fence ordinance to reflect the allowed materials.
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – And in the past sometimes the BOA hasn’t viewed our suggested changes positively. I recall some changes that weren’t well received.
SUSAN ISTENES – They have their opinions, so we like to communicate with them and what is best for the City as a whole between the two boards. Again, these are guidelines, so it isn’t such a formal ordinance change. It is the communication back and forth between the board before we adopt those. I think in the past when we reviewed the guidelines we had the Board endorse the change. But again its not an ordinance change.
VICE CHAIRMAN RON REIM – WE HAVE A STAFF RECOMMENDATION TO APPROVE A FENCE CONSTRUCTED OF WOOD.
RICHARD LINTZ – I’LL MOVE TO APPROVE THE MATERIAL AS PRESENTED.
*NO SECOND – MOTION DIES*
CAROLYN GAIDIS – I’d be for a motion that approves the fence because it is in the backyard…
WILLIAM LIEBERMANN – I agree these products have improved from 10 years ago and I also suspect these are going to be common place at some point in the future. Sometimes our ordinances are behind times. Personally, from my perspective I would rather replace a wooden fence than that a gamble with fading, cracking, sun damage, warping. I kind of think the ordinance is pretty good the way it is. If I were to make a motion to approve this it would be because it’s in the backyard, if there is cracking you would need to maintain that, if there is damage/fading or something like that that you would be obligated to take care of it.
SS – It is my property sir, and I want to put a vinyl fence on my property. It is twice as expensive as wood. I care about my house and I’m spending this much time here, and this much money, I care about my house. If I’m not sincere I would have sent my contractor to come here, but I’m spending that much money I could have sent him but I’m here because I’m apart of the City and this is my home.
WILLIAM LIEBERMANN – I’m not questioning your sincerity, I appreciate you being a property owner, and the rights you have as one. I wanted to share my thoughts on the appropriateness of this ordinance.